Words

[Abigail]

We all know the childhood saying about sticks and stones and names will never hurt me. At least some of us know that isn't true. We know very well that words can hurt us.

For the past couple of weeks, this place has been full of hurtful and hateful words. I don't really care how one justifies it. "He started it first," etc. That's kindergarten justification. I don't even except that excuse from my children.

I have watched people be labelled, I have watched their words get twisted into things they have never said, hell, I watched one man basically have his identity outed (though maybe most of you already knew who he was - I certainly did not) in the name of DEFENDING him. Yet, I would imagine if he wanted his identity revealed he would have posted under his real name. A list of who should be "banned" was put together. I could go on and on, but why bother.

It is like a sickness. Maybe some of us had it before TWI. TWI certainly encouraged it. This notion of "reproof" and "confrontation." And it is till alive and well here at the cafe. The legacy of TWI certainly lives on and on and on.

Personally, I feel like I have had the .... kicked out of me. I feel physically bruised and battered, and it was all done with words and in the name of some "greater good." I am certainly not sure what that greater good is anymore, and I certainly am at a loss to understand what I did to deserve it.

5 threads all hurling accusations and cruelty and people. Calling people out for battle. Not one thread pulled down, most (though thankfully not all) of those posts still stand.

I started one thread, asking for an honest discussion about what does and does not constitute a personal attack. It appears few really want to discuss that issue. Perhaps because it would cause them to look too closely at their own behavior, I don't know. What I do know is a Moderator spoke up on the one thread where it was politely asked that no labels and name calling be used, and esentially said there was no point to discussing the issue, no point in having started the thread. Yet the moderators have been by and large silent regarding most of the cruelty and calling out that has gone on through 5 threads now.

I don't envy Paw and the moderators. At this point, if this were my board I would probably close it down. That Paw has not causes me to have great admiration for him. I realize too, that there is no way in hell the moderators can read every post and remove every personal attack. They volunteer their time here, they have jobs and families at home that need them.

Rabbi Jospeh Telushkin wrote that one of the worst "sins" (sins isn't his word it is mine, because at the moment I cannot come up with a more apt one) is to be indifferent to someone else's suffering. There is a lot of that going on around here. Worst of all, that indifferece is upheld and defended in the name of one person's suffering and at the expense of anothers.

This is no longer a community I care to participate in. I cannot, for the life of me see how all of this bashing each others brains in with words is helpful to anyone. Indeed, not only does it probably chase off many people who come here looking for answers and looking for help, but it hurts the participants as well.

Paw, you put forth a valiant effor with this place. Do not misinterpret what I have said as an accusation against you. There simply isn't a way to moderate this place effectively if the participants will not use compassion and self control to moderate themselves.

I'm done.

Flame away.

[Twinky]

There are some threads that started out quite interesting but have deteriorated to name calling and gone so far off topic that I simply can't be bothered. So if anything interesting or illuminating was said - it's been lost, at least to me.

Kids, go fight outside in the playground. Leave the forums to the ones who can speak civilly.

Is it my turn to get roasted now? Wait a moment while I grab an asbestos suit.

[RainbowsGirl]

((((( DearAbi)))))

What you say here is true and will sadly probably remain true! I read all the threads that you refer too! The compassion and self-control is far less important than all else!

You will be missed as one of the very most thoughtful and loving hearts of reason and fair play ever to grace this cafe...I hope you reconsider...Your are needed!

It seems so strange that we cannot remember the power of LOVE much anymore; .....and for us Christians the word of GOD... Hey, Leave GOD and HIS Word out (not referring to TWI)

...Put yourself first ='s just this!!!

That's what I would have written in your thread...LOVE and GOD's Word except I was too hurt and tired of the name calling, labeling and being ignored! People want to control their

viewpoints more than just discussing, thinking, learning, healing, giving and sharing!

We will be judged with what measure we judge and obtain mercy with what measure we

give it and if we are to Love one another as we love ourselves we are in far more trouble than brews in this forum!!!!!

Love You (((Abi)))))...and (((((ALL))))), RG

edited for grammar...of course

Edited July 24, 2008 by RainbowsGirl

[mstar1]

I stayed away from those threads for the most part because it seemed very early on that nothing good was going to come out of them...It was sort of like watching someone walk up to a leaky propane tank with a lit match...There was a lot of 'heat' and a lot of 'fuel'----

I just knew that it was not going to be a good sight--and hoped that the mangled would be few...

Maybe its a Way thing where people still feel the need to be right supercedes everything --including decency.

We've never interacted too much Abigail, I stay more or less on the sidelines, but you offer a sound voice that is consistantly well thought through, thoughtful and compassionate which is too often a rarity at GS.-

-I can understand your leaving or taking a timeout---Id like to see you stay, if only for my own selfish reasons to see your reasonable posts, but thats not for me to ask--Do whats best for you and your family...and if you ever do decide to come back you may want to think twice about approaching the thread that has a blowtorch approaching a stick of dynamite in it. They always end up like this...

Shalom

Edited July 24, 2008 by mstar1

[WordWolf]

We all know the childhood saying about sticks and stones and names will never hurt me. At least some of us know that isn't true. We know very well that words can hurt us.

For the past couple of weeks, this place has been full of hurtful and hateful words. I don't really care how one justifies it. "He started it first," etc. That's kindergarten justification. I don't even except that excuse from my children.

I don't think that added anything positive to the discussions.

I have watched people be labelled, I have watched their words get twisted into things they have never said, hell, I watched one man basically have his identity outed (though maybe most of you already knew who he was - I certainly did not) in the name of DEFENDING him. Yet, I would imagine if he wanted his identity revealed he would have posted under his real name. A list of who should be "banned" was put together. I could go on and on, but why bother.

Inclusionary online communities get this from time to time, depending on how tolerant the staff

is to let things go before stepping in. So, I've seen this outside of ex-twi circles.

I haven't seen it TOLERATED this long, but I've seen it.

It is like a sickness. Maybe some of us had it before TWI. TWI certainly encouraged it. This notion of "reproof" and "confrontation." And it is till alive and well here at the cafe. The legacy of TWI certainly lives on and on and on.

IMHO, making it a "twi thing" adds complications we do not need. If we need to discuss conduct,

then so be it. I don't see this as being twi-specific NOR twi-exclusive.

Personally, I feel like I have had the .... kicked out of me. I feel physically bruised and battered, and it was all done with words and in the name of some "greater good." I am certainly not sure what that greater good is anymore, and I certainly am at a loss to understand what I did to deserve it.

5 threads all hurling accusations and cruelty and people. Calling people out for battle. Not one thread pulled down, most (though thankfully not all) of those posts still stand.

I know I took a day or two off from participating in them, since I didn't see any way for me to improve

the situation, and thought a little time off would help me balance my perspectives, which would help me to

post civilly.

I started one thread, asking for an honest discussion about what does and does not constitute a personal attack. It appears few really want to discuss that issue. Perhaps because it would cause them to look too closely at their own behavior, I don't know.

I don't think this added anything positive to the discussion. Are you daring us to join your discussion?

I prefer to wait on a post until A) I have time, B) I have something to say that I think is worth posting.

I don't always have those at the same time.

What I do know is a Moderator spoke up on the one thread where it was politely asked that no labels and name calling be used, and esentially said there was no point to discussing the issue, no point in having started the thread. Yet the moderators have been by and large silent regarding most of the cruelty and calling out that has gone on through 5 threads now.

The moderators here are fond of letting the adults work things out for themselves, as I see it.

That hasn't changed the past week.

I don't envy Paw and the moderators. At this point, if this were my board I would probably close it down. That Paw has not causes me to have great admiration for him. I realize too, that there is no way in hell the moderators can read every post and remove every personal attack. They volunteer their time here, they have jobs and families at home that need them.

Rabbi Jospeh Telushkin wrote that one of the worst "sins" (sins isn't his word it is mine, because at the moment I cannot come up with a more apt one) is to be indifferent to someone else's suffering. There is a lot of that going on around here. Worst of all, that indifferece is upheld and defended in the name of one person's suffering and at the expense of anothers.

I think the difference here is in where one draws the line. You've chided some people for how they

approach what they considered to be callousness towards the suffering.

Perhaps the answers aren't quite as easy as you'd prefer.

Me, I'd prefer they'd be easier as well, but I'll work with what I have.

This is no longer a community I care to participate in. I cannot, for the life of me see how all of this bashing each others brains in with words is helpful to anyone. Indeed, not only does it probably chase off many people who come here looking for answers and looking for help, but it hurts the participants as well.

Actually, I made a case that this was happening-and that it was the fallout from what was already

chasing off people looking for answers. I'm willing to look at some other answers- so long as they're

different from what was tried already-since I'm convinced the old approaches got us here.

Paw, you put forth a valiant effor with this place. Do not misinterpret what I have said as an accusation against you. There simply isn't a way to moderate this place effectively if the participants will not use compassion and self control to moderate themselves.

I'm done.

Flame away.

"If you disagree with me, you're 'flaming me', making hurtful comments for no reason, and lacking regard

and compassion for me."

Cute-trying to get in the last word.

I don't think this post was particularly POSITIVE- since it included a few digs into the other posters.

For someone who wanted to have a dialogue on polite discussion, you sure didn't wait long enough for people

to log in who might have been, I don't know, busy for 24 hours or anything.

How serious were you about it?

Actually, I was figuring I'd have something to add to it today, but if the main person interested in it is running

off, that's not exactly going to motivate me to bother...

[Mod Kirk]

What I do know is a Moderator spoke up on the one thread where it was politely asked that no labels and name calling be used, and esentially said there was no point to discussing the issue, no point in having started the thread. Yet the moderators have been by and large silent regarding most of the cruelty and calling out that has gone on through 5 threads now.

I was the moderator that is being referred to in the initial post on this thread. Below is what I posted.

No matter how one defines personal attacks, there's the problem of enforcing that definition.

Does name calling get left up? Undoubtedly. One of the issues is the small number of moderators, and all of them have limited time to devote to moderating.

About two months ago I checked GSC from work and noticed a thread devolving into name calling. I spent more time than my employer would have liked editing and deleting posts, had posters accuse me of "tampering" with their posts, had threads started about why the moderating was happening and finally ended up suspending two posters, one who I have broken bread with and consider a friend.

Then I came home and spent more time than my spouse liked explaining it all.

I can't do that every day and neither can any of the other mods.

The interpretation of what a personal attack is can be somewhat ambiguous. I don't think that will change if we attempt to get more explicit about "the rules".

I did not say, "essentially" or otherwise that there is no point discussing the issue, my point is that the job is already too big for the moderators that we have, and that we can write a bunch of new rules and define to the point that no one can possibly misunderstand and we would still be hampered by the limitations imposed by the small number of moderators and their finite amount of time.

As to "being silent", have you noticed that closing down threads almost invariably results in a new thread, often titled something like "Why Was XYZ Thread Shut Down?" or "Where's Joe Blow?"? It's like cutting off one of Hydra's heads!

I think discussing what defines a personal attack is a valid topic. Some people just don't know.

I'm done.

Flame away.

Or don't...

[rascal]

I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation, of your perception of the people here, your lack of appreciation for what people are trying to accomplish....even the boards themselves. But then I guess I just didn`t figure that was what you really wanted to hear. I also figured that even were I to voice it, that you would construe my lack of appreciation for your perspective in this particular matter as a personal attack.

You appear to be dissatisfied with people not performing to your specification, you have voiced your dissatisfaction with these forums. You come charging in at the 11 th hour having little or no understanding of the difficulties, the personalities, the issues... naievely declaring everyone needs to be a little nicer....something that would work with reasonable adults, something that has been tried for 8 years, but in reality has simply allowed bullies intent on kicking as much sand up peoples faces on the play ground as they can, and to run rough shod over everyone....because people haven`t wanted to be *mean* stand up and stop them....You finally have a community at large that has declared ENOUGH!

OK, so you don`t agree...I don`t know what you are going to do, but I sure don`t think you should be blaming everybody else for not seeing things your way, flinging your own insults and storming off, is helpful either.

There`s your response..happy? It isn`t anywhere close to the reasons you surmised for a lack of interest or participation in your thread.

P.S. I have much I would like to say, but I feel that you don`t really want to entertain my perspective, but rather explain why it isn`t valid, so why even bother with dialog?

Edited July 24, 2008 by rascal

[pond]

I think we all hear what we want to hear. and if it isnt forthcoming we actualy seek out answers that fit the mold we desire .

this is a fact of life for most, and given the emotional and entrenched areana of a web site such as this I do not think any mod can "control" the outcome of these discussions.

I see very little discussion really it is just two sides of one issue just in a battle of wits and stupidity.

who wins?

I do not know. I hear the reaction to such interactions with the conclusion involving frustration and stalemate .

Some believe complaining can work I guess this is one time i agree, but the solution is further away from the reality.

I see those most involved in the battle as unable to see their individual participation as a issue it is always

the other guys" problem or wrong.

It does dismiss the valid parts of GS down to a very few players who just refuse to stop playing games .

the mods can set rules but the constant work it would entail as Mod cow states can not be done.

I think the threads that end up like serve in the sense of a warning , I hear loud and clear as I read, DO I want to involve myself with that fight?"

so it is the same old same old because of the same old ironic isnt it?

I think we all hear what we want to hear. and if it isnt forthcoming we actualy seek out answers that fit the mold we desire .

this is a fact of life for most, and given the emotional and entrenched areana of a web site such as this I do not think any mod can "control" the outcome of these discussions.

I see very little discussion really it is just two sides of one issue just in a battle of wits and stupidity.

who wins?

I do not know. I hear the reaction to such interactions with the conclusion involving frustration and stalemate .

Some believe complaining can work I guess this is one time i agree, but the solution is further away from the reality.

I see those most involved in the battle as unable to see their individual participation as a issue it is always

the other guys" problem or wrong.

It does dismiss the valid parts of GS down to a very few players who just refuse to stop playing games .

the mods can set rules but the constant work it would entail as Mod cow states can not be done.

I think the threads that end up like serve in the sense of a warning , I hear loud and clear as I read, DO I want to involve myself with that fight?"

so it is the same old same old because of the same old ironic isnt it?

[Shellon]

I have two children, both girls. One is 26, the other one is 13. They are about as differant as night and day; completely unique people.

The oldest one is my waterloo and if I say things harshly to her, she hears me completely and can relate to that. In fact that is the only way to interact with her 90% of the time. She also is very direct with me.

My youngest is more gentle and laid back and if I were to be harsh with her, it'd send her into a pile of puddle. She can't relate to it. With her I have to present things in a question format, to allow her time to digest it and think about it.

They are both my kids, both amazingly wonderful young women, but I can't approach either of them like the other, it's just fact.

However, they both approach me the same way. Direct, simple, right to the point, honest. I insist on it.

We here at this place are like that, I think. And I think it behooves us all to consider more than what we see on the surface.

What is the other person's background, what are their standards and beliefs.

What kind of shi tty day did they have that they might need to bite my face when normally they wouldn't. What might they be dealing with that we don't even have a clue about, how might we consider more than what we read, how might we help them instead of biting back, no matter how badly we would like to.

Kindness, empathy, human-ness.

If you're a teacher, you have 22 students in one room and not one of them are the same. One needs more attention and more discipline, which takes time from the other 21. Two are fighting over something that seems stupid, but it's not to them, so you have to take more time from the other 20 to deal with that. One has a ton of bricks on his back cuz of things going on at home, another just lost his mama, yet another just moved here and is scared.

You go home at the end of the day and have a good cry or a good yell but you'd never ever ever let those kids see that frustration, ever.

That's the way I see GSC alot of the time. We could do much better to take care of each other if we considered the whole picture. I understand that we're not going to know everything about each other, we're not going to hear the kind of day someone had who appears to be acting ugly hearted.

But we can consider it!

We might take a little bit of time out of our own busy stuff to really look, really listen, really think about what they said, read between the lines, ask questions, wonder 'hmmm that's not like them' or "wow, what's bringing that on?"

My background is of strength and advocacy, I was raised to be a strong woman and stand up for myself no matter what. However, I have to get my poop in a group first and consider with whom I'm debating. What are their strong points, where did they come from, am I prepared to be fair all the way through.

If not, I better shut up and wait til I am. And if I'm not willing to, I'm going to be eaten alive and have no business crying about it; I knew.

I might have only one thing going on today and however critical and important that one thing is to me, the other person might have 17 things today. My one thing isn't going to be very critical to them. They might not even think of me today while I'm hollaring about whatever it is, wishing they'd listen to me and do it my way.

There is no my way here. There is no your way here.

It's not an option.

Perhaps when we have a point, we write it down somewhere else, save it, think about it, really consider how it might be received. Do we really want that other person to hear it as harsh, is that other person one we've noticed doesn't receive harshness well? What about talking to that other person privately and begin with something more gentle.

Regardless, listen to them, give them the same exact courtesy you're asking of them. Don't just react, but really consider what they're saying, really read it a few times, digest it, consider the persons heart behind it. Look beyond the written words, ask questions.

Walk away from your computer before hitting the Add Reply button, go for a walk, read something in the news about a mama who'd just lost her child or old friend that have re-connected after a 30 year estrangement, then ask yourself some questions. If you're still willing to take on what might come from your words, hit the damn button. Be also willing to take on what they say in response back.

Why not? What's been going on lately isn't working, obviously.

[pond]

you know Im a grown up.

I assume this is an adult site. Why then does it seem like a parent child interaction and communication ?

should and should not and try this and do that.

adults generate idea's to proceed to the next level of progress. How many places do you know that just shame and shunn and punish one another in the course of a discussion?

some have called it a pecking order nah it isnt It is positions of superiority thinking (for what ever reason) so I must now tell you how we are to think and behave. YOU NEED ME! grown up just do not communicate like this in the real world.

ironicly it seldom if ever comes from those involvedin moderation.

[Dot Matrix]

I don't think that added anything positive to the discussions.

Inclusionary online communities get this from time to time, depending on how tolerant the staff

is to let things go before stepping in. So, I've seen this outside of ex-twi circles.

I haven't seen it TOLERATED this long, but I've seen it.

IMHO, making it a "twi thing" adds complications we do not need. If we need to discuss conduct,

then so be it. I don't see this as being twi-specific NOR twi-exclusive.

I know I took a day or two off from participating in them, since I didn't see any way for me to improve

the situation, and thought a little time off would help me balance my perspectives, which would help me to

post civilly.

I don't think this added anything positive to the discussion. Are you daring us to join your discussion?

I prefer to wait on a post until A) I have time, B) I have something to say that I think is worth posting.

I don't always have those at the same time.

The moderators here are fond of letting the adults work things out for themselves, as I see it.

That hasn't changed the past week.

I think the difference here is in where one draws the line. You've chided some people for how they

approach what they considered to be callousness towards the suffering.

Perhaps the answers aren't quite as easy as you'd prefer.

Me, I'd prefer they'd be easier as well, but I'll work with what I have.

Actually, I made a case that this was happening-and that it was the fallout from what was already

chasing off people looking for answers. I'm willing to look at some other answers- so long as they're

different from what was tried already-since I'm convinced the old approaches got us here.

"If you disagree with me, you're 'flaming me', making hurtful comments for no reason, and lacking regard

and compassion for me."

Cute-trying to get in the last word.

I don't think this post was particularly POSITIVE- since it included a few digs into the other posters.

For someone who wanted to have a dialogue on polite discussion, you sure didn't wait long enough for people

to log in who might have been, I don't know, busy for 24 hours or anything.

How serious were you about it?

Actually, I was figuring I'd have something to add to it today, but if the main person interested in it is running

off, that's not exactly going to motivate me to bother...

I agree with Word Wolf

And if you posted to get people to beg you to stay that may or may not happen

Leave if you must, there are plently of civil rights groups that would love to have you

I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation, of your perception of the people here, lack of appreciation for what people are trying to accomplish....even the boards themselves. But then I guess I just didn`t figure that was what you really wanted to hear. I also figured that even were I to voice it, that you would construe my lack of appreciation for your perspective in this particular matter as a personal attack.

You appear to be dissatisfied with people not performing to your specification, you have voiced your dissatisfaction with these forums. You come charging in at the 11 th hour having little or no understanding of the difficulties, the personalities, the issues... naievely declaring everyone needs to be a little nicer....something that would work with reasonable adults, something that has been tried for 8 years, but in reality has simply allowed bullies intent on kicking as much sand up on the play ground as they can to run rough shod over everyone....because people haven`t wanted to be *mean* stand up and stop them....You finally have a community at large that has declared ENOUGH!

OK, so you don`t agree...I don`t know what you are going to do, but I sure don`t think you should be blaming everybody else for not seeing things your way, flinging your own insults and storming off, is helpful either.

There`s your response..happy? It isn`t anywhere close to the reasons you surmised for a lack of interest or participation in your thread.

P.S. I have much I would like to say, but I feel that you don`t really want to entertain my perspective, but rather explain why it isn`t valid, so why even bother with dialog?

GREAT post

The thread? Well, no offense BUT... seems like

Just another way to show case your POV - and have the last word - it really adds nothing, settles nothing but adds more fuel to your POV - sorry Charlie

Edited July 24, 2008 by Dot Matrix

[Shellon]

you know Im a grown up.

I assume this is an adult site. Why then does it seem like a parent child interaction and communication ?

should and should not and try this and do that.

adults generate idea's to proceed to the next level of progress. How many places do you know that just shame and shunn and punish one another in the course of a discussion?

some have called it a pecking order nah it isnt It is positions of superiority thinking (for what ever reason) so I must now tell you how we are to think and behave. YOU NEED ME! grown up just do not communicate like this in the real world.

ironicly it seldom if ever comes from those involvedin moderation.

I completely agree, Pond. What I'm adding is that we consider others lives too. My example of children/adult, etc was just that, example.

I would be re-miss to jump your head if you said something I didn't agree with, but would be better to consider the 'why' of our disagreement.

[doojable]

I'm guilty of getting too deep in the fray.

In the last day I decided to read more and post very little. The arguments still jump to mind as do the sarcastic quips that I'd write if I bothered to post.

What I've found is that the arguments continue without me, so they don't need me fueling them more. Furthermore, I've found that I have absolutely no ability to "help the situation."

The discussions don't become polarized because we share a TWI history. They becomes polarized because we are people.

Empathy, kindness, sympathy - even these words with the best of intentions can sometimes do damage. What I consider to be empathy another can perceive as an insult. Maybe it's because we can't hear inflection or look in each other's eyes - I don't know.

I can say that in the last few months I've deleted more posts before hitting the "Reply" button than I've posted. I just read it, ask myself if what I say really matters and "Delete" seems to be the thing to do.

And with all that I still had my fair share of quips.

Shoot me now.

Edited July 24, 2008 by doojable

[rascal]

BANG! ;)

[oldiesman]

Abigail, thanks so much for trying to encourage all posters to stay above the namecalling and labelling and adhere to a more excellent standard. I hope you don't go ... but understand if you finally decide to. Know that your heart and continued respectable posting is a great example and will be missed.

[rascal]

Doggone it Abby, I like you. I know that you are a really cool person, have awsome, insight, are a great mom, with terrific kids. I remember our marvel when we discovered together the lost dunes of your childhood. Our pride and joy as we watched our aarons land their own fish. I really really like you.

I just think that things from your perspective are entirely different than they are from my perspective. I think that could be true of everyone here. I know that you are trying to be balanced and a peace maker. I just don`t think that is possible when you have a few people who want nothing more than to cause disruption and attack posters.

Your point was considered, please don`t be frustrated and dismiss me because I didn`t agree.

[doojable]

If we all had the same perspective there would be no need for all but one poster. The rest of us would just get to read and shake our heads in agreement.

Lots of "YUP" posts.

[Oakspear]

Yup

[Belle]

Sorry, Abi, I'm just so "over it" all....

(Don't we have some "just get over it" threads around here? )

Seriously, though, I'm kinda like Twinky - I'm sick of threads deteriorating because people won't just ignore one another - they continue to engage in the same d@mn fights they've been having, like you said, for EIGHT FRIGGIN' YEARS.

They ruin perfectly good threads and I'm just to the point where I don't really give a sh1t anymore. I've begged some people to just ignore each other but they have to get their say in - or the last word - no matter what. I'm tired of trying to get adults to act like adults - it's futile.

I might pass by and look in the window, but anymore I only slide into a booth with my gum in hand if there's conversation that I feel is reasonable and/or fun - I just don't have the energy or patience anymore for the petty stuff.

[rascal]

Go ahead, congratulate yourself for being above the fray....real good advice when YOU aren`t the one who is relentlessly hounded, your every post questioned, your veracity questioned, your motives, etc. Ignore these guys and they place the bait for their buddies to move in and take their swings....

Try understanding form the view point of being hounded until you finally have to just leave the forums all together because your view point alone is enough to dissolve a whole thread....I am not talking about with points countering a post but with simple nasty insinuations ......in my case like ..... well we would expect something like that from you...or you are a lying psychotic so what...or well you need to seek psychiatric help to attend to this anger problem with vp because you are a threat to yourself and a danger to your children.... never even addressing the subject of the thread or any other post.

Damn it, I was shut up for a couple of decades. I don`t think it is fair that I have to shut up here because these guys don`t want what I have to say to have merit.

As has been demonstrated...when ignored...these bullies refocus on a new target. They are trolls with no other purpose than eliminating the flow of information.

Sometimes, a bully has to be stopped when simple ignoring them only escalate the nastiness.

I have had enough. After all of these years of trying to reason, of trying to be nice, of trying to explain my position, I am swinging back. There just isn`t any pleasing some of you folks.

You finally have a community at large who has had enough....and I say, it`s about damned time..

Edited July 24, 2008 by rascal

[now I see]

[Groucho,]Looking to make an issue? Hoping for a mass cry against the "apologists"? hoping to use peer pressure to push Paw into giving you your way? Pretty stinky if ya ask me - - which I guess you pretty much did by airing it out in public.

BTW, I don't recall reading that this was an ANTI twi website, I thought it was an EX twi website. There is a distinct difference.

Abi-This is a quote from you in the "Boot the Wierewill Apologists" thread said to Groucho, if you still feel this way, then you are miles away from what we are saying.  I agree with WordWolf too.

You also assigned motivation to Groucho which you have no way of knowing, and I believe you assessed him wrongly and implied he has a character fault for starting that thread, which I believe you were wrong for doing that too, it seems you assign labels to people pretty freely too, when it suites you, the very thing you're outcrying against others.

If our little system worked, the Losing the Way thread involving WhiteDove wouldn't have upset so many contributing posters, it needs to be tweaked, it is our forum too, problems need to be discussed, rather than swept under the rug behind closed doors, changes need to be fine tuned.  

You were not involved with that thread, nor could you possibly know how rough it got, you are on a completely different plain in this discussion.  I think you are argueing a point that doesn't really apply here to the former specific incident, which is where we are all coming from.

[Belle]

Go ahead, pat yourself on the back as being above the fray....real good advice when YOU aren`t the one who is relentlessly hounded, your every post questioned, your veracity questioned, your motives, etc. Ignore these guys and they place the bait for their buddies to take their swings....

Rascal, I don't know who you are speaking to, but I'll bite. You know darn well that I have been the one relentlessly hounded at one time - we talked about it at length over the phone many times, remember?

.....in my case like ..... well we would expect something like that from you...or you are a lying psychotic so what...or well you need to seek psychiatric help to attend to this anger problem with vp because you are a threat to yourself and a danger to your children.... never even addressing the subject of the thread or any other post.

And, I maintain that everyone who frequents this forum knows that those kinds of statements are b.s. and we are mature, intelligent and responsible enough to consider the source. That you don't trust us when we tell you that is .... well, wrong and insulting.

You have some guys that want to shut up anyone who`s experience in twi wasn`t flattering. When one ignores them..they simply find someone new to focus on.

See?? You know it works! You ignore them, they find someone else to pick on - If every person they decide to pick on ignores them, they have no fuel for their fire.... it's really a very simple concept that works.

Damn it, I was shut up for a couple of decades. I don`t think it is fair that I have to shut up here because these guys don`t want what I have to say to have merit.

No one is telling you to shut up, except maybe them. I'm just saying that I wish people would stick to the actual topic of a particular thread and ignore those low pot shots, especially when they come from the same trouble-makers. Say all you want, just don't engage the bullies.

Sometimes, a bully has to be stopped when ignored they simply escalate the nastiness.

How's that been workin' for ya?

Wouldn't it be better to just report them to Paw and the moderators?

You finally have a community at large who has had enough....and I say, it`s about damned time..

Yup. I've had enough alright. I love ya, but we disagree on this. :)

[rascal]

If our little system worked, the Losing the Way thread involving WhiteDove wouldn't have upset so many contributing posters, it needs to be tweaked, it is our forum too, problems need to be discussed, rather than swept under the rug behind closed doors, changes need to be fine tuned.  

You were not involved with that thread, nor could you possibly know how rough it got, you are on a completely different plain in this discussion.  I think you are argueing a point that doesn't really apply here to the former specific incident, which is where we are all coming from.

If I might add...NOR were you there to witness how many many posters asked politely, even begged dove and oldies to please please stop. To please show some respect just this one time and with hold their customary responses.

The pleas went completely unheeded. Dove and Oldies continued to savage that thread and the posters on it until pawtucket and the moderators were forced to move in and delete the offending posts.

Which is what has precipitated all of this. Dove and oldies, and even rhino, (for different reasons) want to make it about something else altogether, and they have rallied support from the unsuspecting.

Some of you guys are critisizing the wrong folks.

[rascal]

Hey Bell, I edited my stuff before I saw your post to explain ...hopefully making my meaning a little clearer.

No ignoring didn`t work, they found new and better ways to disrupt.

Notifying paw was working. ...the forum rules being tightened and enforced....and now HE is under attack and under fire because the bullies are crying foul and whining discrimination for their view point and stirring the chit up getting others who are completely oblivious as to the necessity of the measures being enacted, or the reasons for so many peoples outrage.... to question and hassle paw, the moderators, the posters.

People want it stopped. It is happening, but that isn`t good enough, now everybodies a bunch of meanies.

Ignoring the crap, while it sounds good in theory, didn`t work in twi, turning a blind eye doesn`t work in our communities...and it certainly hasn`t been working around here.

Edited July 24, 2008 by rascal

[Lifted Up]

I think it behooves us all to consider more than what we see on the surface.

What is the other person's background, what are their standards and beliefs.

What kind of shi tty day did they have that they might need to bite my face when normally they wouldn't. What might they be dealing with that we don't even have a clue about, how might we consider more than what we read, how might we help them instead of biting back, no matter how badly we would like to.

Kindness, empathy, human-ness.

If you're a teacher, you have 22 students in one room and not one of them are the same. One needs more attention and more discipline, which takes time from the other 21. Two are fighting over something that seems stupid, but it's not to them, so you have to take more time from the other 20 to deal with that. One has a ton of bricks on his back cuz of things going on at home, another just lost his mama, yet another just moved here and is scared.

You go home at the end of the day and have a good cry or a good yell but you'd never ever ever let those kids see that frustration, ever.

That's the way I see GSC alot of the time. We could do much better to take care of each other if we considered the whole picture. I understand that we're not going to know everything about each other, we're not going to hear the kind of day someone had who appears to be acting ugly hearted.

But we can consider it!

We might take a little bit of time out of our own busy stuff to really look, really listen, really think about what they said, read between the lines, ask questions, wonder 'hmmm that's not like them' or "wow, what's bringing that on?"

My background is of strength and advocacy, I was raised to be a strong woman and stand up for myself no matter what. However, I have to get my poop in a group first and consider with whom I'm debating. What are their strong points, where did they come from, am I prepared to be fair all the way through.

If not, I better shut up and wait til I am. And if I'm not willing to, I'm going to be eaten alive and have no business crying about it; I knew.

I might have only one thing going on today and however critical and important that one thing is to me, the other person might have 17 things today. My one thing isn't going to be very critical to them. They might not even think of me today while I'm hollaring about whatever it is, wishing they'd listen to me and do it my way.

There is no my way here. There is no your way here.

It's not an option.

Perhaps when we have a point, we write it down somewhere else, save it, think about it, really consider how it might be received. Do we really want that other person to hear it as harsh, is that other person one we've noticed doesn't receive harshness well? What about talking to that other person privately and begin with something more gentle.

Regardless, listen to them, give them the same exact courtesy you're asking of them. Don't just react, but really consider what they're saying, really read it a few times, digest it, consider the persons heart behind it. Look beyond the written words, ask questions.

Walk away from your computer before hitting the Add Reply button, go for a walk, read something in the news about a mama who'd just lost her child or old friend that have re-connected after a 30 year estrangement, then ask yourself some questions. If you're still willing to take on what might come from your words, hit the damn button. Be also willing to take on what they say in response back.

Why not? What's been going on lately isn't working, obviously.

When I say/write something, I try to put myself in the other person's shoes. And by the other person, I realize it might not even be the one to whom I am speaking. I guess I try to assume the person might be real seinsitive and perhaps easily hurt by what I might say, even if it is not my intent to hurt. What some people might call over sensitive.

It is not too hard for me to do, since, I guess I am one of those over sensitive people. Often been hurt by things I shouldnt be hurt by. Things another person might have said or done without the least intention to hurt me.So I try to think, if another person is like that, could I be hurting them?

Of course I slip up at times. Some time ago, i thnk it was something like three months but not exactly sure, I got snapped at hard for something I said in chat. Was I unfairly snapped at? Does it matter? I thought about what I said, and realized the reason why I got snapped at.

I know that if we try to be sensitive to what someone else is thinking or how they might be affected, we might be able to avoid hurting them.

Avoid personal attacks? geez, dont I now it well that there are words a lot more innocent than what ANYONE would consider a personal attcak that can still be devastating.

On the other hand, seemingly over sensitivity can have an up side. I mean, not just avoiding hurting someone deeply, but doing something wonderful for them.

I think Abi sensed that I was feeling some hurt for anyone who might have had the terrible things done to then as were done to Kristen. I guess it was really a matter of trust, for as more than one poster has said recently, words can be artfully crafted to sound so nice. Frankly, I wouldn't have trusted me either. I'm male, and even most of us will admit we can't really feel a victim's hurt. But Abi trusted me that I was doing my best. And she helped me understand, in a wonderful way, without lectures or even loving reminders. And she knew exactly where to step in. waiting for me to tell her how much I wanted to read that book.

Kris is a wonderful lady, and I think she understood with great sensitivity that she would help people understand about her hurt a lot more by simply telling bout it a lot more than by any lecture. And I hope i can be sensitive enough to remember that I can hurt her by treating her account as a loner. She is in the people helping business because she WANTS to help others, and I realize there were quite a number hurt as I was not...including some hurt to the degree she was, perhaps even greater.

Without Abi's trust, I think I would eventually have gotten and read Kris's book, I think. I just can't be sure that I would have felt the hurt as much when I read Kris's account.