I had a problem with der vey's lack of classification of sins in God's eyes..
that to God, lying is as bad as murder, that there are no grades of sins, but only in society.
I think the teaching that the old testament was written for our learning was invoked generally if it was convenient. Adultery? No problemo.. your little "white lie" was just as bad.. besides, we are not under the law. Then on the other hand, they taught that "a believer in the grace administration would not even THINK of doing less than the TITHE."
why would a "believer in the age of grace" want to do any less than what the law dictated regarding ADULTERY?
I guess one had to be spiritual enough to "handle" flying below the law..
Imagine, I was just thinking about this recently, I swear.
Now, if you run an envelope through the mail machine at work for .42, is that the same if you embezzle $2 grand, $2 million, whatev, from your employer?
How 'bout if you surf the 'net on work time?
--
oh, and if I thought about doing it (any of the above), would that be sin? venial maybe , not mortal
In the OT there were different penalties for different sins, so at least then all sins were not the same. What evidence is tere that it changed?
Jesus made many statements along the lines of, "You have heard such and such... but I say to you... " If a man looks at a woman with lust, it is as much a sin as if he committed adultery. If a man hates his brother, it's as much a sin as if he committed murder. But TWI not only said that was addressed to a different administration, but turned the whole thing on its ear with the attitude of, "if all sins are equal, then nothing I do is all that bad as long as I'm saved."
Jesus' point was not to give us a new set of rules that was more strict than the OT Law, though. His point was to show that God looks at the heart more than the letter of the law, and that we are all sinners one way or another so we can't be saved by works, and need God's grace. God is interested in a change of heart more than a change in just outward behavior.
Oh yeah, TWI's minimization of sin definitely makes matters worse. Think of the following passage in the context of one believer counseling another:
Matthew 7:3-5 NKJV
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
If I do not address a BIG fault in my own life [represented by the plank], it's impossible for me to help another person with a small issue [the speck]. I do think some sins are worse than others when it comes to the harm it brings – but this verse could apply to any sin that attains "plank status" – seriously impairing one's perception of everything. And speaking of "plank status" - it is when a sin DOMINATES a person's life that they earn the distinction in the Bible of being called an adulterer, thief, liar, idolater, drunkard, etc.
Dealing with sin issues in TWI was a convoluted mess for a few reasons. There was more of a concern for "sinning" against the organization than committing sins against God and neighbor – a lockbox to protect the reputation of a leader, for example…Instead of facing sin issues head-on, folks often applied band aids to the symptoms. Feeling bad about sinful behavior? You need to review the collateral You Are Righteous Now…IMHO, the controversy and issues around the time of The Passing of the Patriarch – revealed how inept top leadership was in addressing sin – by spiritualizing & blames-shifting [devil spirits are attacking our ministry], avoidance of addressing certain issues, and resorting to minimizing, rationalizing, or justifying actions.
The topic of sin was one of the first things I addressed after leaving TWI – got into a lot of Jay Adams' stuff, and there's an old thread where some of his stuff was discussed:
I think we are looking at two different subjects here.
1. The act of sin. Here every sin has a result both spiritually and physically, some greater, some lesser. In that sense all sin is not equal.
2. The forgiveness of Sin. - As far as God is concerned if you accept Jesus as your Lord and believe God raised him from the dead you are forgiven your sins, no matter how big or small. If you confess you sin God is faithful and just to forgive your sin and cleanse you of all unrightousness, no matter how big or small.
Nowhere does it say you will not have deal with the result of sin forgiven or not, in the physical, though God will help you deal with.
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Ham
I had a problem with der vey's lack of classification of sins in God's eyes..
that to God, lying is as bad as murder, that there are no grades of sins, but only in society.
I think the teaching that the old testament was written for our learning was invoked generally if it was convenient. Adultery? No problemo.. your little "white lie" was just as bad.. besides, we are not under the law. Then on the other hand, they taught that "a believer in the grace administration would not even THINK of doing less than the TITHE."
why would a "believer in the age of grace" want to do any less than what the law dictated regarding ADULTERY?
I guess one had to be spiritual enough to "handle" flying below the law..
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Oakspear
In the OT there were different penalties for different sins, so at least then all sins were not the same. What evidence is tere that it changed?
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frank123lol
Hmm..That way the der vey could do as it dam@ well pleased and call it "grace".
Remember?It was the intent that made a sin?God forbid that you shouyld sin so grace should abound.
No wonder things stunk,even in the good old daze,as der vey had thier secret agenda.
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Jim
Big sins and little sins. Or if you're not a believer, big hurtful behavior and little hurtful behavior.
I don't think your thoughts alone can be sinful or hurtful behavior.
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excathedra
ha !!! I love that song !!!!!
Imagine, I was just thinking about this recently, I swear.
Now, if you run an envelope through the mail machine at work for .42, is that the same if you embezzle $2 grand, $2 million, whatev, from your employer?
How 'bout if you surf the 'net on work time?
--
oh, and if I thought about doing it (any of the above), would that be sin? venial maybe , not mortal
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Mark Clarke
Jesus made many statements along the lines of, "You have heard such and such... but I say to you... " If a man looks at a woman with lust, it is as much a sin as if he committed adultery. If a man hates his brother, it's as much a sin as if he committed murder. But TWI not only said that was addressed to a different administration, but turned the whole thing on its ear with the attitude of, "if all sins are equal, then nothing I do is all that bad as long as I'm saved."
Jesus' point was not to give us a new set of rules that was more strict than the OT Law, though. His point was to show that God looks at the heart more than the letter of the law, and that we are all sinners one way or another so we can't be saved by works, and need God's grace. God is interested in a change of heart more than a change in just outward behavior.
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cheranne
All my "favorite mistakes" live in Texas(like sheryl crow sings about!)
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T-Bone
Oh yeah, TWI's minimization of sin definitely makes matters worse. Think of the following passage in the context of one believer counseling another:
Matthew 7:3-5 NKJV
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
If I do not address a BIG fault in my own life [represented by the plank], it's impossible for me to help another person with a small issue [the speck]. I do think some sins are worse than others when it comes to the harm it brings – but this verse could apply to any sin that attains "plank status" – seriously impairing one's perception of everything. And speaking of "plank status" - it is when a sin DOMINATES a person's life that they earn the distinction in the Bible of being called an adulterer, thief, liar, idolater, drunkard, etc.
Dealing with sin issues in TWI was a convoluted mess for a few reasons. There was more of a concern for "sinning" against the organization than committing sins against God and neighbor – a lockbox to protect the reputation of a leader, for example…Instead of facing sin issues head-on, folks often applied band aids to the symptoms. Feeling bad about sinful behavior? You need to review the collateral You Are Righteous Now…IMHO, the controversy and issues around the time of The Passing of the Patriarch – revealed how inept top leadership was in addressing sin – by spiritualizing & blames-shifting [devil spirits are attacking our ministry], avoidance of addressing certain issues, and resorting to minimizing, rationalizing, or justifying actions.
The topic of sin was one of the first things I addressed after leaving TWI – got into a lot of Jay Adams' stuff, and there's an old thread where some of his stuff was discussed:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=232963
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waysider
For me, at least, it reinforced the type of "black and white" thinking that is being discussed on the other thread.
Hey now here's a thought. If sticking your finger in someones ear is the same as---
, why didn't they just stick their fingers in each other's ears?
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Keith
I think we are looking at two different subjects here.
1. The act of sin. Here every sin has a result both spiritually and physically, some greater, some lesser. In that sense all sin is not equal.
2. The forgiveness of Sin. - As far as God is concerned if you accept Jesus as your Lord and believe God raised him from the dead you are forgiven your sins, no matter how big or small. If you confess you sin God is faithful and just to forgive your sin and cleanse you of all unrightousness, no matter how big or small.
Nowhere does it say you will not have deal with the result of sin forgiven or not, in the physical, though God will help you deal with.
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