It was fairly obvious after we had been out a while that M&A was simply a means to shut off the dissenters from the masses, and then used as a threat to shut anyone else up.
Here's a quote from Harold Kushner that I also find very interesting, in light of what we were taught in TWI
"The goal of Judaism is not to each us how to escape from the profane world to the cleansing presence of God {Rember in the world but not of it? In TWI we were to separate ourselves from "worldly things"?}, but to teach us how to bring God into the world, how to take the ordinary and make it holy."
Your discussion on this subject made me think of this verse:
Matthew 4:23:
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kindom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among his people.
Why did I think of this verse? Because there are two words in this verse that mean almost identical things but the second one 'disease' has one definition that is different from 'sickness'. That is "a problem in society: a serious problem in society or a serious problem with a particular group of people or person within a society."
Jesus was also a Jew and would understand the concept of shunning in the context of someone harming the community. According to this verse Jesus came to 'heal' even that. Which would explain the tone that Paul used when he spoke of 'marking them and then avoiding them'. It also explains why Paul and others spend so much time explaining how the family is supposed to act towards each other and how the body works.
Right, Eyes. In fact, the "healing of the world" is what many Jewish people believe we were chosen to do. It isn't because Jewish people are somehow special, either. Nor is it that non-Jewish people cannot heal the world - in fact, to heal the world requires all parties to participate.
The idea is that for whatever reason, God chose Abraham. Perhaps God saw Abraham as the man who would teach his children. Or perhaps as Harold Kushner points out and as the Bible even says, God stuck it out with the decendents of Abraham because of the love God had for Abraham. Not entirely different from how we might favor the children and grandchildren of an especially close friend. In other words, there isn't anything particularly special about Jewish people, we had no say in our lineage.
Eventually God "codified" the laws via Moses, but most of those laws already existed prior to Moses. Perhaps they were codified the way they were at Mt. Sinai because the Jewish people had been salves in Egypt for so long that they no longer remembered/knew the laws, or at least all of them.
But in any event, the point of the laws were to teach us how to live as a community. The Jewish people were then to set an example for how to live as a community so that other people would also eventually come to live in communities (as in, in communion with one another, taking care not only of themselves, but their neighbors as well. This would be in oppisition to living in anarchy and chaos, sacrificing children, etc. etc.) Eventually, the world would be healed and the Kingdom of Heaven will come to pass on earth.
And I agree, both Jesus and Paul would have understood these concepts.
I absolutely believe that God had a special place in his heart for Abraham. I believe that he is one of the very few that God personally went to visit, outside of Adam that is. Just before the Sodom and Gomorrah thing God appeared to Abraham with two of his angels and had dinner. Then the angels were sent on to Sodom while God and Abraham bargained for thier salvation. Abraham got him all the way down to only ten righteous and all five cities would be spared but the angels only found four and one of those was pretty shakey. That whole account speaks to me of the respect and love that God had for this one man. So yes I think that in a lot of ways the Jewish people were blessed by association. Not all ways of course but it sure didnt hurt their case any when they screwed up.
Once upon a time God had a plan that included a fully populated earth that wasnt such a mess. He planned on an entire race of humans that lived in harmony and joy with one another and lived immortal, that is if I'm reading Genesis correctly. I think that you and I spoke of this briefly once concerning the tree of good and evil and the tree of life. God didnt put them there as a temptation. It was in the plan that they would partake of them but they jumped the gun.
I really think that if mankind could only follow the simple rules of love God and love your neighbor as yourself the world could heal.
I also find God's relationship with Moses fascinating too - Amazing. Abraham, Moses - those men's direct relationship with Jehovah is wonderful to read.
I believe, just as God has his "host of heaven" in the angels in the heavens, that Israel was meant to be God's Holy "host" on earth. There's an interesting passage in the OT, I can't remember where now, where God lets other angels have the peoples of the rest of the world but calls Israel his. They were holy. He made his covenant with them. Moses calls his people to him, but also goes into great detail as to what will happen to Holy Israel if they break the covenant and worship other gods.
They were meant to be the light of the world, God's host on earth, God's Holy people who would lead the rest of the world (gentiles) to God and be the priests of the Most High.
Christ came and was the ultimate sacrifice, he was sent to Israel to call them back. He was rejected. I finally realized that the 12 apostles were sent to Israel for a reason. Not to the Gentiles. Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles. The 12 apostles were the "last call" so to speak to Israel. Return to Christ, your Messiah has come and they spent years proving his prophecies from the OT. I believe if Israel had accepted him, the Messiah would have come in Glory, the judgment and cleansing the world of unrighteousness and spiritual evil would happen and the "Lord's Day" would have commenced.
It did not happen.
But, the good news is - it will though. The Messiah is coming for Israel in His glory, the Jewish people will realize who he was and mourn over him as a son for what happened to him. I love the Book of Revelation - the earth is righteous, it is superabounding, the Jewish nation once again is Holy and rules with Christ over the men of the earth, their mission finally fulfilled.
At the end, Heavenly Jerusalem - the real, true temple, that Israel had made on earth, which was the "type" or a shadow reflection of what was really in heaven, comes down - it is magnificent, with a tribe's name written over each gate, and the names of the 12 apostles written on its foundation.
Genesis - Paradise lost, man's spirit - God's "image" - lost. Revelation - Paradise regained, God's "image" restored to man, the woman calls mankind to eat of the tree of life. Israel, the Holy Priests and Kings of Christ restored. What a magnificant book of hope for Israel.
But, the good news is - it will though. The Messiah is coming for Israel in His glory, the Jewish people will realize who he was and mourn over him as a son for what happened to him. I love the Book of Revelation - the earth is righteous, it is superabounding, the Jewish nation once again is Holy and rules with Christ over the men of the earth, their mission finally fulfilled.
At the end, Heavenly Jerusalem - the real, true temple, that Israel had made on earth, which was the "type" or a shadow reflection of what was really in heaven, comes down - it is magnificent, with a tribe's name written over each gate, and the names of the 12 apostles written on its foundation.
Genesis - Paradise lost, man's spirit - God's "image" - lost. Revelation - Paradise regained, God's "image" restored to man, the woman calls mankind to eat of the tree of life. Israel, the Holy Priests and Kings of Christ restored. What a magnificant book of hope for Israel.
That was a beautiful synopsis! I just love the way makes things come full circle using the same or similar imagry. It really is beautiful.
I also found God's relationship with Moses to be interesting. So very few people, even those spoken of in the Bible really got to have that special treatment from God Almighty. Such an honor and a great responsibility.
But, the good news is - it will though. The Messiah is coming for Israel in His glory, the Jewish people will realize who he was and mourn over him as a son for what happened to him. I love the Book of Revelation - the earth is righteous, it is superabounding, the Jewish nation once again is Holy and rules with Christ over the men of the earth, their mission finally fulfilled.
At the end, Heavenly Jerusalem - the real, true temple, that Israel had made on earth, which was the "type" or a shadow reflection of what was really in heaven, comes down - it is magnificent, with a tribe's name written over each gate, and the names of the 12 apostles written on its foundation.
Beautifully said, Sunesis. I am not as convinced as you are, regarding those things that will be, but they are beautiful nonetheless. If it turns out in the end you are correct, you won't hear me complaining. :D
I mentioned in another thread that I am reading a book by Harold Kushner called "To Life". In it, he briefly touches on the practice of shunning (which is very rarely ever seen in the Jewish sects anymore, except rarely among some of the ultra-orthodox communities).
He uses the Roman Catholic Church as an example, but it fits with what TWI taught perhaps even better. In the Christian groups that practice shunning, it is often applied to a person because he or she has a theological difference (i.e. are the dead alive now, is Jesus Christ God). In TWI one wasn't just cut off from the community, but we were taught that we were cut off from God as well. (greasespot by midnight, anyone?)
However, he asks, how can anyone cut someone else off from God????
In Judaism, when excommunication occured, it was a cutting off from the community, and it was never understood to be a cutting off from communion with God. AND shunning didn't occur over theological differences, shunning occured when a person was not acting as a member of the community - in the best interest of the community.
Now, if Paul, as a Jew, understood the concept of "mark and avoid" in this light - his writings on the topic make much more sense!!! You don't mark and avoid someone because they have a different belief, you mark and avoid them because they are harming the community (such as someone who manipulates and/or forces a woman to have sex with him - hmmmmmm).
Hi Abigail,
I'm vary glad that you started this thread because ever since another poster asked if we were going too far in the "Give them the boot" thread I've been considering the matter.
In Corinth Paul had the church expell one person for a little while even though later he said to bring him back into the church. Paul talks very clearly about how this behavior could damage the church in Corinth. So the do it for everyones good idea seems to apply here.
But Paul also says that the Lord judges those that are outside the church and also encouraged them to deal with the real issues that arose within the church. If Paul had made even ONE clear reference to this man being cut off from God I wouldn't think that the whole idea of being not a part of the fellowship anymore was THE SAME as being cut off from God was hogwash.
I think that EVEN IF a person is legitimately removed from a fellowship for a time the scriptural idea is that it was in order to FACE GOD, not to be cut off from him. I think that TWI didn't stand a chance in hell of getting this one right because the rottenness lived in DR. Wierwille's heart and he transfered it to as much of his leadership as he could. When the man in charge acts like that and cannot be kicked out as was appropriate, then the whole thing goes bad.
That is what happened, and now Dr. Wierwille will face the Lord for his crimes face to face.
In O.T times lepers were cut of from intimacy, but never was any implication given of them being cut off from God in the scriptures. As a matter of fact, by two lepers God delivered Isreal once.
If I understand the law rightly that everyone that was cut off according to O.T law but wasn't punished by death was still considered to have hope in God.
I think that the way TWI used the IDEA of being cut off from God was a wicked and devilish manipulation designed to make good people cave in to the pressure and give up the fight.
BASTARDS
(Edited for spelling and some added too.)
I think that it's fair to say that the VAST majority of excommunications throughout history were somehow unjust, and that people screwed up the concept in general.
I think it is Abi. The OT - Ezekiel, Zechariah, Isaiah, etc. all prophecy is about the coming King and Kingdom. Most of Christ's talking here on earth was regarding the coming Kingdom. The 12 Apostles preached the coming Kingdom. They did not preach "Paul's Gospel." Paul was an Apostle of Christ sent to the Gentiles - the one body, new creation as was revealed to Paul, not the 12.
God sent his Word, the prophets, Christ, and the 12 apostles to Israel. The 12 were Israel's "last call" so to speak. The reason Peter, in Acts on the day of Pentecost quoted Joel's prophecy regarding the last days about the Kingdom to the Jews who were gathered in the Temple, was because he knew that if all Israel turned to Christ, their Messiah, the Kingdom would come, his rule would commence, the Kingdom would start. It was years later, at the meeting with the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul in Acts, that James perceived God was doing a new work with the Gentiles through Paul and said they did not have to follow the law. Once the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and Jeruselem sacked, the time had passed for Israel's repentence. Yet, we are told, in the future ALL of Israel will turn to Jesus, their Messiah and He shall return to earth and they shall be his Priests and Kings on earth.
I believe, if all of Israel had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah, you would have gone right into the Kingdom in Revelation. He would be the Judge, unrighteousness would have been cleansed, the creation restored, the curse removed, and, as prophesied in the OT, 10 men would grab onto a Jewish man's skirt and say, let's go with him to the temple, we know God is with him (that's a wonderful verse, I can find it if you like - I'm going by memory now).
When I look at the whole Bible, the whole OT is prophecy, the Messiah comes and his mission is to call Israel and tell them their King has come, then the end in Revelation, the Kingdom - it really does come. Almost the whole Bible is about this topic. As God said in the OT, I will tell you what I will do before I do it. He has told us. The one body, the church, those born again of both Jew and Gentile is a totally new creation with a different calling and different sphere of function and takes up a very small part of the Bible - it truly is grace. We were called in Gen 1:1 and will continue in Rev. 22:22 - i.e, in eternity.
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Watered Garden
Makes sense to me.'
It was fairly obvious after we had been out a while that M&A was simply a means to shut off the dissenters from the masses, and then used as a threat to shut anyone else up.
WG
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Abigail
Exactly, WaterGarden.
Here's a quote from Harold Kushner that I also find very interesting, in light of what we were taught in TWI
"The goal of Judaism is not to each us how to escape from the profane world to the cleansing presence of God {Rember in the world but not of it? In TWI we were to separate ourselves from "worldly things"?}, but to teach us how to bring God into the world, how to take the ordinary and make it holy."
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Eyesopen
Your discussion on this subject made me think of this verse:
Matthew 4:23:
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kindom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among his people.
Why did I think of this verse? Because there are two words in this verse that mean almost identical things but the second one 'disease' has one definition that is different from 'sickness'. That is "a problem in society: a serious problem in society or a serious problem with a particular group of people or person within a society."
Jesus was also a Jew and would understand the concept of shunning in the context of someone harming the community. According to this verse Jesus came to 'heal' even that. Which would explain the tone that Paul used when he spoke of 'marking them and then avoiding them'. It also explains why Paul and others spend so much time explaining how the family is supposed to act towards each other and how the body works.
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Abigail
Right, Eyes. In fact, the "healing of the world" is what many Jewish people believe we were chosen to do. It isn't because Jewish people are somehow special, either. Nor is it that non-Jewish people cannot heal the world - in fact, to heal the world requires all parties to participate.
The idea is that for whatever reason, God chose Abraham. Perhaps God saw Abraham as the man who would teach his children. Or perhaps as Harold Kushner points out and as the Bible even says, God stuck it out with the decendents of Abraham because of the love God had for Abraham. Not entirely different from how we might favor the children and grandchildren of an especially close friend. In other words, there isn't anything particularly special about Jewish people, we had no say in our lineage.
Eventually God "codified" the laws via Moses, but most of those laws already existed prior to Moses. Perhaps they were codified the way they were at Mt. Sinai because the Jewish people had been salves in Egypt for so long that they no longer remembered/knew the laws, or at least all of them.
But in any event, the point of the laws were to teach us how to live as a community. The Jewish people were then to set an example for how to live as a community so that other people would also eventually come to live in communities (as in, in communion with one another, taking care not only of themselves, but their neighbors as well. This would be in oppisition to living in anarchy and chaos, sacrificing children, etc. etc.) Eventually, the world would be healed and the Kingdom of Heaven will come to pass on earth.
And I agree, both Jesus and Paul would have understood these concepts.
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Eyesopen
I absolutely believe that God had a special place in his heart for Abraham. I believe that he is one of the very few that God personally went to visit, outside of Adam that is. Just before the Sodom and Gomorrah thing God appeared to Abraham with two of his angels and had dinner. Then the angels were sent on to Sodom while God and Abraham bargained for thier salvation. Abraham got him all the way down to only ten righteous and all five cities would be spared but the angels only found four and one of those was pretty shakey. That whole account speaks to me of the respect and love that God had for this one man. So yes I think that in a lot of ways the Jewish people were blessed by association. Not all ways of course but it sure didnt hurt their case any when they screwed up.
Once upon a time God had a plan that included a fully populated earth that wasnt such a mess. He planned on an entire race of humans that lived in harmony and joy with one another and lived immortal, that is if I'm reading Genesis correctly. I think that you and I spoke of this briefly once concerning the tree of good and evil and the tree of life. God didnt put them there as a temptation. It was in the plan that they would partake of them but they jumped the gun.
I really think that if mankind could only follow the simple rules of love God and love your neighbor as yourself the world could heal.
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Sunesis
I also find God's relationship with Moses fascinating too - Amazing. Abraham, Moses - those men's direct relationship with Jehovah is wonderful to read.
I believe, just as God has his "host of heaven" in the angels in the heavens, that Israel was meant to be God's Holy "host" on earth. There's an interesting passage in the OT, I can't remember where now, where God lets other angels have the peoples of the rest of the world but calls Israel his. They were holy. He made his covenant with them. Moses calls his people to him, but also goes into great detail as to what will happen to Holy Israel if they break the covenant and worship other gods.
They were meant to be the light of the world, God's host on earth, God's Holy people who would lead the rest of the world (gentiles) to God and be the priests of the Most High.
Christ came and was the ultimate sacrifice, he was sent to Israel to call them back. He was rejected. I finally realized that the 12 apostles were sent to Israel for a reason. Not to the Gentiles. Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles. The 12 apostles were the "last call" so to speak to Israel. Return to Christ, your Messiah has come and they spent years proving his prophecies from the OT. I believe if Israel had accepted him, the Messiah would have come in Glory, the judgment and cleansing the world of unrighteousness and spiritual evil would happen and the "Lord's Day" would have commenced.
It did not happen.
But, the good news is - it will though. The Messiah is coming for Israel in His glory, the Jewish people will realize who he was and mourn over him as a son for what happened to him. I love the Book of Revelation - the earth is righteous, it is superabounding, the Jewish nation once again is Holy and rules with Christ over the men of the earth, their mission finally fulfilled.
At the end, Heavenly Jerusalem - the real, true temple, that Israel had made on earth, which was the "type" or a shadow reflection of what was really in heaven, comes down - it is magnificent, with a tribe's name written over each gate, and the names of the 12 apostles written on its foundation.
Genesis - Paradise lost, man's spirit - God's "image" - lost. Revelation - Paradise regained, God's "image" restored to man, the woman calls mankind to eat of the tree of life. Israel, the Holy Priests and Kings of Christ restored. What a magnificant book of hope for Israel.
I've digressed... What was the question again?
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Eyesopen
That was a beautiful synopsis! I just love the way makes things come full circle using the same or similar imagry. It really is beautiful.
I also found God's relationship with Moses to be interesting. So very few people, even those spoken of in the Bible really got to have that special treatment from God Almighty. Such an honor and a great responsibility.
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Abigail
Amen to that!!!
And yes, I remember our discussions on the tree of life. It is probably still down here somewhere burried in the pages. :)
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Abigail
Beautifully said, Sunesis. I am not as convinced as you are, regarding those things that will be, but they are beautiful nonetheless. If it turns out in the end you are correct, you won't hear me complaining. :D
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JeffSjo
Hi Abigail,
I'm vary glad that you started this thread because ever since another poster asked if we were going too far in the "Give them the boot" thread I've been considering the matter.
In Corinth Paul had the church expell one person for a little while even though later he said to bring him back into the church. Paul talks very clearly about how this behavior could damage the church in Corinth. So the do it for everyones good idea seems to apply here.
But Paul also says that the Lord judges those that are outside the church and also encouraged them to deal with the real issues that arose within the church. If Paul had made even ONE clear reference to this man being cut off from God I wouldn't think that the whole idea of being not a part of the fellowship anymore was THE SAME as being cut off from God was hogwash.
I think that EVEN IF a person is legitimately removed from a fellowship for a time the scriptural idea is that it was in order to FACE GOD, not to be cut off from him. I think that TWI didn't stand a chance in hell of getting this one right because the rottenness lived in DR. Wierwille's heart and he transfered it to as much of his leadership as he could. When the man in charge acts like that and cannot be kicked out as was appropriate, then the whole thing goes bad.
That is what happened, and now Dr. Wierwille will face the Lord for his crimes face to face.
In O.T times lepers were cut of from intimacy, but never was any implication given of them being cut off from God in the scriptures. As a matter of fact, by two lepers God delivered Isreal once.
If I understand the law rightly that everyone that was cut off according to O.T law but wasn't punished by death was still considered to have hope in God.
I think that the way TWI used the IDEA of being cut off from God was a wicked and devilish manipulation designed to make good people cave in to the pressure and give up the fight.
BASTARDS
(Edited for spelling and some added too.)
I think that it's fair to say that the VAST majority of excommunications throughout history were somehow unjust, and that people screwed up the concept in general.
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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Sunesis
I think it is Abi. The OT - Ezekiel, Zechariah, Isaiah, etc. all prophecy is about the coming King and Kingdom. Most of Christ's talking here on earth was regarding the coming Kingdom. The 12 Apostles preached the coming Kingdom. They did not preach "Paul's Gospel." Paul was an Apostle of Christ sent to the Gentiles - the one body, new creation as was revealed to Paul, not the 12.
God sent his Word, the prophets, Christ, and the 12 apostles to Israel. The 12 were Israel's "last call" so to speak. The reason Peter, in Acts on the day of Pentecost quoted Joel's prophecy regarding the last days about the Kingdom to the Jews who were gathered in the Temple, was because he knew that if all Israel turned to Christ, their Messiah, the Kingdom would come, his rule would commence, the Kingdom would start. It was years later, at the meeting with the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul in Acts, that James perceived God was doing a new work with the Gentiles through Paul and said they did not have to follow the law. Once the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and Jeruselem sacked, the time had passed for Israel's repentence. Yet, we are told, in the future ALL of Israel will turn to Jesus, their Messiah and He shall return to earth and they shall be his Priests and Kings on earth.
I believe, if all of Israel had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah, you would have gone right into the Kingdom in Revelation. He would be the Judge, unrighteousness would have been cleansed, the creation restored, the curse removed, and, as prophesied in the OT, 10 men would grab onto a Jewish man's skirt and say, let's go with him to the temple, we know God is with him (that's a wonderful verse, I can find it if you like - I'm going by memory now).
When I look at the whole Bible, the whole OT is prophecy, the Messiah comes and his mission is to call Israel and tell them their King has come, then the end in Revelation, the Kingdom - it really does come. Almost the whole Bible is about this topic. As God said in the OT, I will tell you what I will do before I do it. He has told us. The one body, the church, those born again of both Jew and Gentile is a totally new creation with a different calling and different sphere of function and takes up a very small part of the Bible - it truly is grace. We were called in Gen 1:1 and will continue in Rev. 22:22 - i.e, in eternity.
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