Mark I don't think you will find a "one size fits all" answer regarding the rod of correction. I do believe it is symbolic and refers to the authority of the parent to teach a child and that it isn't about hitting a child.
Mark I don't think you will find a "one size fits all" answer regarding the rod of correction. I do believe it is symbolic and refers to the authority of the parent to teach a child and that it isn't about hitting a child.
How ironic that twi promoted the idea that "adultery" was symbolic and really referred to "spiritual adultery/idolotry," while it took the idea of "the rod of correction" and made it literal.
Not to detract from cake's personal testimony, but if memory serves there was a "child abuse" thread a long time ago that discussed spanking where various opinions about it was discussed. My opinion is that there's a right way and a wrong way, and sometimes folks in twi applied it the wrong way which time unfortunately cake was at the receiving end of an event like that.
As with everything else in twi oldies, there were teachings for the general public to hear, and then there were the practices and standards for those of whom more was expected.
Not being married or having had children, or been a child yourself in twi, in all probability, you wouldn`t have ever been subjected to the genuine application of the *rod of correction* teachings and it`s enforcement.
You had what appeared on the surface to be an innocuous teaching that was in reality a license for incredible abuse.
Don`s back ground history supports that it was ministry wide....as does the experience of the now grown children that endured the abuse.
Cake, there was another thread about child abuse in twi a while back where the now grown kids related stories similar to yours...as well as parents required to impliment and why...of course it was disrupted by people claiming that it wasn`t really abuse, or that people simply didn`t follow official standard.
My opinion is that there's a right way and a wrong way, and sometimes folks in twi applied it the wrong way which time unfortunately cake was at the receiving end of an event like that.
There's a right way and a wrong way to do everything.
"Sometimes" is an understatement - but you most likely wouldn't realize that unless you have raised children.
As with everything else in twi oldies, there were teachings for the general public to hear, and then there were the practices and standards for those of whom more was expected.
If you are suggesting that "flogging" was an acceptable form of punishment sanctioned by the BOT, I have to disagree.
I do remember a paper called "Children Fun or Frenzy", that was written proof that TWI sanctioned parental spanking and use of the spoon (again, with limits, not beating the crap out of a kid.)
I'm going to respectfully withdraw from this thread now, I don't want to say or do anything to detract from cake's story. I will continue on the child abuse thread if necessary, although as I recall we "beat that horse" pretty good back then.
I stand by my post. I believe that the threads on child abuse that Dooj pulled up in the *about the way* forum will more than demonstrate that the practice was wide spread.
If you are suggesting that "flogging" was an acceptable form of punishment sanctioned by the BOT, I have to disagree. I guess on this point I'll pull a WD and want to see written proof of such an allegation if that's what you are alleging.
I do remember a paper called "Children Fun or Frenzy", that was written proof that TWI sanctioned parental spanking and use of the spoon (again, with limits, not beating the crap out of a kid.)
I'm going to respectfully withdraw from this thread now, I don't want to say or do anything to detract from cake's story. I will continue on the child abuse thread if necessary, although as I recall we "beat that horse" pretty good back then.
maybe
Thanks for withdrawing OM.
I'll make one point though. Sanctioning a practice doesn't have to be limited to "written doctrine." By NOT speaking out against such practices, twi allowed it to happen. They were mighty quick to jump on something like the distribution of ABS- why not on this subject?
Add to this how they chose to hide and protect known pedophiles by moving them.
If you are suggesting that "flogging" was an acceptable form of punishment sanctioned by the BOT, I have to disagree. I guess on this point I'll pull a WD and want to see written proof of such an allegation if that's what you are alleging.
I do remember a paper called "Children Fun or Frenzy", that was written proof that TWI sanctioned parental spanking and use of the spoon (again, with limits, not beating the crap out of a kid.)
I'm going to respectfully withdraw from this thread now, I don't want to say or do anything to detract from cake's story. I will continue on the child abuse thread if necessary, although as I recall we "beat that horse" pretty good back then.
Oldies,
How about taking out your "written proof" comment out? You aren't "respectfully" withdrawing, you are making your dig and withdrawing!!!
If, indeed, a dedicated thread should evolve from this, I suggest it would not be complete without the inclusion of Watered Garden's bone chilling testimony.
Speaking in terms of solutions instead of problems.
When a child spills something, instead of calling them "stupid" or "clumsy" or yelling "You always do that!" I learned to say, "Okay, you spilled it. Get a sponge and clean it up."
Acknowledge their feelings.
"Scratches can hurt." instead of "Stop crying. It's only a scratch."
Give alternate solutions
"Walls are not for writing on. Paper is for writing on." (Art on walls is a whole other thing! ;))
Basically using language to build self-esteem and encourage responsibility.
Well, gee, we get another "expert" opinion from someone who spent his time on the sidelines.
If one has never had and raised children, never been married, and never been on the receiving end of the uglier "blessings" that were doled out by WayWorld, maybe it would be wise to just STFU with regards to stuff you have no inkling about?
She was just four years old when she was dancing on the kitchen counter in her ballet tutu and her favorite pink sweat pants...
I lifted her off the counter and told her not to dance by the stove when I was cooking.
She moved the chair, climbed on the counter and danced over the stove! A gas stove with 3 burners in use.
I raise the spoon and swatted the tutu. Crying, and then suddenly silent, she left the kitchen, only to return in a few minutes.
With her hands on her hips she said "You shouldn't beat little children Dad... Four year olds are good people and you should not beat them"
"But E***e, your tutu could catch fire and you could get hurt..."
"I know what I'm doing dad, and you should't beat little kids dad..."
"I didn't want you to get hurt E***e. I'm sorry"
She took the wooden spoon, her eyes were still leaking tears but she was not crying. I started to cry.
When we moved, we found that every wooden spoon in the house had been carefully hidden, not one remained in the kitchen.
So, when she was married five years ago, I gave her a pack of new wooden spoons and a card, announcing that the spoons were to beat away unwanted parental advice...
As far as written documentation that severe and prolonged, painful physical punishment is the norm, not even the idiots at TWI are that stupid. If that policy were in writing, every kid who ever went through Family Corps, not to mention some of us parents, would have TWI in a court of law. They aren't that dumb.
My son described it several years ago: "It was like they (Rome City staff) were the Nazis and you were the Jews. Touch a wall and BAM! you were hit with a spoon. Speak while in line and WHAP! hit again."
I had no idea this was going on. I often wonder if some of the reason FWC adults are kept somewhat isolated from their kids is so they won't have a chance to say "Mom, dad, they are beating the hell out of me."
While I am not totally adverse to a smack on the butt (1, lightly) on occasion, I strongly object to beating, thrashing, kicking, whipping etc.
I would just love for some sadist like Moneyhands to come after my grandson. See, my son isn't a skinny little kid any more. He's 6'2", and about 200 lb of muscle and grit. That spoon would find a new home on the wielder's person in a very dark place.
Good story, how did your 4 year old dance on the stove with 3 burners in use? Just curious, she must be very agile. I bumped into another one of your stories a while back on your "Spirits in the Garage" thread, you have very interesting stories and a certain way with words.
E***e was a very spry and coordinated counter climber at 4. There was a large ledge above the stove, facing into the dining room. So, she would climb up on the counter, dance near the stove and then up to the ledge above the stove....
She was a (is) a priceless character. I remember one day taking her to work with me. I was managing a small hotel dining room at the time. She decided to assist me and moved all of the coffee cup handles from the standard 4 or 5 o'clock position, to the 11 o'clock position.
The Hotel General manager asked her if she wanted a job. She said "This place needs more 4 year olds...4 year olds are good workers..."
The manager, playing right into her hands, said she would need an application.
To which E***e replied "I don't want an application J*ck, I want a job!"
Mr. J*ack Rab***n and I laughed about for the next several years....
Some of my most cherished memories were from the childrens fellowhips we frequently held.
Probably the scariest thing I saw, and right before we went in FWC at that, was at the ROA. This family, one I've mentioned before anonymously of course on child abuse threads (he wanted us to hit our son with a 2x4) had a 2-year-old daughter. We were going to eat lunch together at the big top and had met them at a camper they were sharing with someone. It was one of those where the electrical boxes had little white stones around them. The daughter, we'll call her Jane because that is not her name, started playing with the stones. Eventually she tossed a couple at The Sprout. He asked her politely to stop. She was 2 so she continued to toss the pebbles at him. "Come on, Jane, knock it off!" he said, but not much louder - The Sprout is real gentle with little ones. About that time, Momma saw what was going on. "Jane! Stop that!" she cried. She went over and got her daughter by the hand. "Now, Jane, tell Sprout you're sorry." Jane, who has undoubtedly been taught not to lie, and is unhappy that her game is interrupted, sticks out her lower lip and says nothing. "Jane! Say you are sorry!" Nothing. Out comes the wooden spoon. BAM! BAM! BAM1 "AAAAHHHHHHH!" "Jane, tell the Sprout you are sorry you threw stones at him!" Silence, except for sobbing. BAM! BAM! BAM! "Jane! Say you are sorry!" Sobbing. BAM! BAM! (Well, you get the picture.)
This went on for a couple of minutes. I was getting uncomfortable, but my son even more so. 'Hey that's okay, she's just a little kid." he said. "IT IS NOT ALL RIGHT! SHE MUST OBEY!" BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM!
Now Daddy takes over. He is about 6', obese, and very danged off! "JANE! YOU APOLOGIZE RIGHT NOW!" Takes child from mother. BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM!!!!! "AAAAAAHHHHHGGG!"
For about 10 minutes Daddy beat the living daylights out of that little girl, hitting her as hard as he could. All of us were stunned. How many of us said "Hey! That's enough, V***!" Nobody. That was his child. He had the God-given right and responsibility to discipline his child as he saw fit. That is what we were taught. Finally, between sobs, she breathlessly murmured an apology.
Afterward in the meal tent, the mom showed me her daughter's legs. They were red and swollen and I could actually see the blood running under her skin. 'Do you think he hit her a little too hard?" she asked me. "A lot too hard. If the police saw you you'd be arrested." I told her. Of course she didn't say anything to her husband, not because he was the head, but because she believed that all in all IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
Now this couple were WC. I'm not saying all WC were like that; a lot of them had much more common sense and loved their kids more than the "ministry". But the teaching was that the children must always without except listen-remember-obey. It's the locked-step goosestep obedience that bothers me. Oh and the beatings also. That bothers me a lot.
Cake, you shared a chilling story. I hope you can forgive your parents, because the adults were taught a couple of wrong, erroneous, bad things.
First of all, we were taught if our children did not obey, they could easily become possessed with evil spirits. So every blow that was struck on a child was a blow against The Adversary. That is also why children were not supposed to be allowed to cry much, even when they were being soundly thrashed. Their emotions could very easily get out of control, and then WHAMMO! in comes a spirit to possess their little mind!
We were also taught by LCM that we were held responsible before God at the Judgment Seat for our children's stand on God's Wonderful Matchless Word, and that included what the child did AS AN ADULT. And in oder to keep that child from getting possessed and walking away from God's Wonderful Ministry, that child must be disciplined, and forced to obey.
We poor saps actually thought we were saving your lives! How dumb is THAT!
I've apologized about ten million times to The Sprout for putting him through 3 months of hell in FWC then 3 years in hell under these peoples' socalled leadership. He is very forgiving, and surprisingly considering the statistics, is not an abusive parent himself, but an excellent wonderful daddy to my precious grandson - and another is on the way!
God is good and I pray he protects the hearts and minds of children who are exposed to the evil of TWI and delivers them from this evil, as well as their parents.
WG
PS: I'm not saying I believed any of the above, but I wanted to express the kind of BS they were teaching. I have often wondered if the Martindale kids were beaten, whipped, flogged, thrashed, screamed at and made to feel lower than worm spit like the masses were taught to do with their kids.
The difference between somebody sharing their history, a personal and highly intimate thing, and making some nya-nya accusation is quite profound. Attacking the veracity of a highly-charged, and risky personal anecdote, questioning the accuracy of somebody's personal statement, goes beyond contemptible. I'm relatively sure that if you had some filth's hands all over you and god knows what else, the last thing you'd want to hear is "that hasn't been proven". You'd be thinking "it was damn well proven on my body", and you'd feel just as abused as before, just as erased, just as damaged, and you'd probably not want to share anymore, feeling even more alienated. Lovely. "Welcome!"
And I was amazed to see, when folks started saying that they'd seen this too, wow... I got chills. It's vindicating to speak and to be heard. Something empowering about it. Maybe that's what makes empathy so incredible: it's an act that is, by it's nature, a loving one, by no means empty-headed or blind of course, but trying for a moment to reach across and stand in another person's skin, to think and feel like they do for a moment, just long enough... I'm quite overwhelmed.
This thread as I understand it is not so much about abuse but how one feels when one's own report of abuse is not acknowledged and worse, "proof" is required by some posters.
To those posters who STILL express doubt, can I suggest you consider what circumstantial evidence is? And what is a "pattern of behavior"? Legally, those also can also be taken into consideration when considering the veracity of accusations. Proof, in effect. The tales of abuse of various kinds - spiritual, physical, emotional, everything - are far too wide over far too long a period to be discounted. Either that, or there are a heck of a lot of liars and fantasists who post on this site.
Cake: it is VERY healing to realise - it wasn't just you. It was you and him and her and those people over there. It's not that misery likes company; it's acknowledging that what happened actually did happen; and that you were not to blame. It wasn't a one-off targetted at you, but part of a general pattern. Let it out, then you can let it go. It's still a part of your past but its hold on you will be weakened. You keep shining that light and exposing the wicked works! Most people here are friends and on your side.
DWBH: thanks for the further miserable bit of TWI history. The more that's exposed, the more shocking it is.
To think that at one time, I really believed that kids were raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord - in loving kindness and tenderness... (scream)
Cake, I'm sorry you and so many other way kids suffered at the hands of those who were supposed to lead by loving example.
I in no way intend to excuse of defend twi or the abusers...I'd be among the last to defend twi and don't doubt they botched many teachings about child-rearing. That said, part of what I remember being taught (at the limb level in TX then by Cindy B**nad*** at Rome City) about using the spoon/rod of correction made/makes sense to me and went something like this:
Never do it out of anger...if you (the parent) first make sure the child knows the rules, (for example, don't touch the knobs on the stove) then he knows what is expected.
Then, when the child touches the knob, get up and give a light tap. Same thing...everytime he touches it. When the kid keeps touching it on purpose just to see if you really mean it is exasperating, but the point is supposed to be to show that you (the parent) mean what you say. The goal is/was supposed to be that the child learns to trust and obey God by trusting and obeying the parents.
Our closest twi friends had a boy eight months older than our son and I can honestly say they were a great example of how to use the spoon/rod correctly. Unfortunately, they were the exception and not the rule. There always seemed to be parents whacking too hard, too often, too over-the-top.
Our son was four when we entered the family corps 11 (1984), was a pretty easy-going kid and managed to make it out of there ok. There was only one incident where an interim-corps staff girl whacked him and left marks on his bottom. My blood still boils when I think about it, so it's probably a good thing I can't remember her name.
Probably because of my background, I don't have a problem with corporal punishment. My parents used to whack me and my sister with a flyswatter (minor infractions) or "the board" (a paddle...reserved for more serious stuff). My father's belt was a last resort. My only complaint is that they would wait until they got mad before we would get a spanking, so it really hurt. However, I never felt abused or unloved because they made sure on a daily basis we knew they loved us.
Also, my parents were the only ones doling out the punishment. There is no way they would have let anyone else lay a hand on us, not a relative, not a friend, and certainly not the preacher. I can hardly imagine what it must have felt like for the twi kids...everywhere they turned there was someone ready and willing to whack them.
One more thing, I've seen households where the kids run all over the parents...not good for anyone involved. There has to be balance or the children will grow up to believe that the world revolves around them. Enough ramblin' from me...slow morning at work. ;)
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Abigail
Mark I don't think you will find a "one size fits all" answer regarding the rod of correction. I do believe it is symbolic and refers to the authority of the parent to teach a child and that it isn't about hitting a child.
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doojable
How ironic that twi promoted the idea that "adultery" was symbolic and really referred to "spiritual adultery/idolotry," while it took the idea of "the rod of correction" and made it literal.
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oldiesman
Not to detract from cake's personal testimony, but if memory serves there was a "child abuse" thread a long time ago that discussed spanking where various opinions about it was discussed. My opinion is that there's a right way and a wrong way, and sometimes folks in twi applied it the wrong way which time unfortunately cake was at the receiving end of an event like that.
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doojable
Oldies - do you have kids? Did you have kids while in TWI?
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rascal
As with everything else in twi oldies, there were teachings for the general public to hear, and then there were the practices and standards for those of whom more was expected.
Not being married or having had children, or been a child yourself in twi, in all probability, you wouldn`t have ever been subjected to the genuine application of the *rod of correction* teachings and it`s enforcement.
You had what appeared on the surface to be an innocuous teaching that was in reality a license for incredible abuse.
Don`s back ground history supports that it was ministry wide....as does the experience of the now grown children that endured the abuse.
Cake, there was another thread about child abuse in twi a while back where the now grown kids related stories similar to yours...as well as parents required to impliment and why...of course it was disrupted by people claiming that it wasn`t really abuse, or that people simply didn`t follow official standard.
I will try to pull it up for you.
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doojable
There's a right way and a wrong way to do everything.
"Sometimes" is an understatement - but you most likely wouldn't realize that unless you have raised children.
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oldiesman
If you are suggesting that "flogging" was an acceptable form of punishment sanctioned by the BOT, I have to disagree.
I do remember a paper called "Children Fun or Frenzy", that was written proof that TWI sanctioned parental spanking and use of the spoon (again, with limits, not beating the crap out of a kid.)
I'm going to respectfully withdraw from this thread now, I don't want to say or do anything to detract from cake's story. I will continue on the child abuse thread if necessary, although as I recall we "beat that horse" pretty good back then.
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rascal
I stand by my post. I believe that the threads on child abuse that Dooj pulled up in the *about the way* forum will more than demonstrate that the practice was wide spread.
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doojable
Thanks for withdrawing OM.
I'll make one point though. Sanctioning a practice doesn't have to be limited to "written doctrine." By NOT speaking out against such practices, twi allowed it to happen. They were mighty quick to jump on something like the distribution of ABS- why not on this subject?
Add to this how they chose to hide and protect known pedophiles by moving them.
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Mark Clarke
Doojable,
What techniques did the child psychologist recommend?
T-Bone,
The "Toxic Tangents" would be a great name for a rock group!
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pawtucket
Oldies,
How about taking out your "written proof" comment out? You aren't "respectfully" withdrawing, you are making your dig and withdrawing!!!
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oldiesman
Done.
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waysider
If, indeed, a dedicated thread should evolve from this, I suggest it would not be complete without the inclusion of Watered Garden's bone chilling testimony.
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doojable
Mark -
Little things...but big things really.
Speaking in terms of solutions instead of problems.
When a child spills something, instead of calling them "stupid" or "clumsy" or yelling "You always do that!" I learned to say, "Okay, you spilled it. Get a sponge and clean it up."
Acknowledge their feelings.
"Scratches can hurt." instead of "Stop crying. It's only a scratch."
Give alternate solutions
"Walls are not for writing on. Paper is for writing on." (Art on walls is a whole other thing! ;))
Basically using language to build self-esteem and encourage responsibility.
*************
"T-Bone and the Toxic Tangents" - hehehehhe
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George Aar
Well, gee, we get another "expert" opinion from someone who spent his time on the sidelines.
If one has never had and raised children, never been married, and never been on the receiving end of the uglier "blessings" that were doled out by WayWorld, maybe it would be wise to just STFU with regards to stuff you have no inkling about?
Maybe?
(Just a thot! Ha-huh!)...
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egilkent
She was just four years old when she was dancing on the kitchen counter in her ballet tutu and her favorite pink sweat pants...
I lifted her off the counter and told her not to dance by the stove when I was cooking.
She moved the chair, climbed on the counter and danced over the stove! A gas stove with 3 burners in use.
I raise the spoon and swatted the tutu. Crying, and then suddenly silent, she left the kitchen, only to return in a few minutes.
With her hands on her hips she said "You shouldn't beat little children Dad... Four year olds are good people and you should not beat them"
"But E***e, your tutu could catch fire and you could get hurt..."
"I know what I'm doing dad, and you should't beat little kids dad..."
"I didn't want you to get hurt E***e. I'm sorry"
She took the wooden spoon, her eyes were still leaking tears but she was not crying. I started to cry.
When we moved, we found that every wooden spoon in the house had been carefully hidden, not one remained in the kitchen.
So, when she was married five years ago, I gave her a pack of new wooden spoons and a card, announcing that the spoons were to beat away unwanted parental advice...
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Watered Garden
Equikent that is priceless!
As far as written documentation that severe and prolonged, painful physical punishment is the norm, not even the idiots at TWI are that stupid. If that policy were in writing, every kid who ever went through Family Corps, not to mention some of us parents, would have TWI in a court of law. They aren't that dumb.
My son described it several years ago: "It was like they (Rome City staff) were the Nazis and you were the Jews. Touch a wall and BAM! you were hit with a spoon. Speak while in line and WHAP! hit again."
I had no idea this was going on. I often wonder if some of the reason FWC adults are kept somewhat isolated from their kids is so they won't have a chance to say "Mom, dad, they are beating the hell out of me."
While I am not totally adverse to a smack on the butt (1, lightly) on occasion, I strongly object to beating, thrashing, kicking, whipping etc.
I would just love for some sadist like Moneyhands to come after my grandson. See, my son isn't a skinny little kid any more. He's 6'2", and about 200 lb of muscle and grit. That spoon would find a new home on the wielder's person in a very dark place.
More later.
WG
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T-Bone
Hmmm...and they should play Willie Dixon's tune Spoonful. <_<
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now I see
Hi Equil-
Good story, how did your 4 year old dance on the stove with 3 burners in use? Just curious, she must be very agile. I bumped into another one of your stories a while back on your "Spirits in the Garage" thread, you have very interesting stories and a certain way with words.
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waysider
Could be a spoonful of water
Save you from the desert sand
Spoonful of lead from my .45
Gonna save you from another man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TwEYuues6Y
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egilkent
Thanks W.G. and Now I. S.-
E***e was a very spry and coordinated counter climber at 4. There was a large ledge above the stove, facing into the dining room. So, she would climb up on the counter, dance near the stove and then up to the ledge above the stove....
She was a (is) a priceless character. I remember one day taking her to work with me. I was managing a small hotel dining room at the time. She decided to assist me and moved all of the coffee cup handles from the standard 4 or 5 o'clock position, to the 11 o'clock position.
The Hotel General manager asked her if she wanted a job. She said "This place needs more 4 year olds...4 year olds are good workers..."
The manager, playing right into her hands, said she would need an application.
To which E***e replied "I don't want an application J*ck, I want a job!"
Mr. J*ack Rab***n and I laughed about for the next several years....
Some of my most cherished memories were from the childrens fellowhips we frequently held.
Egil
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Watered Garden
Probably the scariest thing I saw, and right before we went in FWC at that, was at the ROA. This family, one I've mentioned before anonymously of course on child abuse threads (he wanted us to hit our son with a 2x4) had a 2-year-old daughter. We were going to eat lunch together at the big top and had met them at a camper they were sharing with someone. It was one of those where the electrical boxes had little white stones around them. The daughter, we'll call her Jane because that is not her name, started playing with the stones. Eventually she tossed a couple at The Sprout. He asked her politely to stop. She was 2 so she continued to toss the pebbles at him. "Come on, Jane, knock it off!" he said, but not much louder - The Sprout is real gentle with little ones. About that time, Momma saw what was going on. "Jane! Stop that!" she cried. She went over and got her daughter by the hand. "Now, Jane, tell Sprout you're sorry." Jane, who has undoubtedly been taught not to lie, and is unhappy that her game is interrupted, sticks out her lower lip and says nothing. "Jane! Say you are sorry!" Nothing. Out comes the wooden spoon. BAM! BAM! BAM1 "AAAAHHHHHHH!" "Jane, tell the Sprout you are sorry you threw stones at him!" Silence, except for sobbing. BAM! BAM! BAM! "Jane! Say you are sorry!" Sobbing. BAM! BAM! (Well, you get the picture.)
This went on for a couple of minutes. I was getting uncomfortable, but my son even more so. 'Hey that's okay, she's just a little kid." he said. "IT IS NOT ALL RIGHT! SHE MUST OBEY!" BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM!
Now Daddy takes over. He is about 6', obese, and very danged off! "JANE! YOU APOLOGIZE RIGHT NOW!" Takes child from mother. BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM!!!!! "AAAAAAHHHHHGGG!"
For about 10 minutes Daddy beat the living daylights out of that little girl, hitting her as hard as he could. All of us were stunned. How many of us said "Hey! That's enough, V***!" Nobody. That was his child. He had the God-given right and responsibility to discipline his child as he saw fit. That is what we were taught. Finally, between sobs, she breathlessly murmured an apology.
Afterward in the meal tent, the mom showed me her daughter's legs. They were red and swollen and I could actually see the blood running under her skin. 'Do you think he hit her a little too hard?" she asked me. "A lot too hard. If the police saw you you'd be arrested." I told her. Of course she didn't say anything to her husband, not because he was the head, but because she believed that all in all IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
Now this couple were WC. I'm not saying all WC were like that; a lot of them had much more common sense and loved their kids more than the "ministry". But the teaching was that the children must always without except listen-remember-obey. It's the locked-step goosestep obedience that bothers me. Oh and the beatings also. That bothers me a lot.
Cake, you shared a chilling story. I hope you can forgive your parents, because the adults were taught a couple of wrong, erroneous, bad things.
First of all, we were taught if our children did not obey, they could easily become possessed with evil spirits. So every blow that was struck on a child was a blow against The Adversary. That is also why children were not supposed to be allowed to cry much, even when they were being soundly thrashed. Their emotions could very easily get out of control, and then WHAMMO! in comes a spirit to possess their little mind!
We were also taught by LCM that we were held responsible before God at the Judgment Seat for our children's stand on God's Wonderful Matchless Word, and that included what the child did AS AN ADULT. And in oder to keep that child from getting possessed and walking away from God's Wonderful Ministry, that child must be disciplined, and forced to obey.
We poor saps actually thought we were saving your lives! How dumb is THAT!
I've apologized about ten million times to The Sprout for putting him through 3 months of hell in FWC then 3 years in hell under these peoples' socalled leadership. He is very forgiving, and surprisingly considering the statistics, is not an abusive parent himself, but an excellent wonderful daddy to my precious grandson - and another is on the way!
God is good and I pray he protects the hearts and minds of children who are exposed to the evil of TWI and delivers them from this evil, as well as their parents.
WG
PS: I'm not saying I believed any of the above, but I wanted to express the kind of BS they were teaching. I have often wondered if the Martindale kids were beaten, whipped, flogged, thrashed, screamed at and made to feel lower than worm spit like the masses were taught to do with their kids.
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Twinky
This thread as I understand it is not so much about abuse but how one feels when one's own report of abuse is not acknowledged and worse, "proof" is required by some posters.
To those posters who STILL express doubt, can I suggest you consider what circumstantial evidence is? And what is a "pattern of behavior"? Legally, those also can also be taken into consideration when considering the veracity of accusations. Proof, in effect. The tales of abuse of various kinds - spiritual, physical, emotional, everything - are far too wide over far too long a period to be discounted. Either that, or there are a heck of a lot of liars and fantasists who post on this site.
Cake: it is VERY healing to realise - it wasn't just you. It was you and him and her and those people over there. It's not that misery likes company; it's acknowledging that what happened actually did happen; and that you were not to blame. It wasn't a one-off targetted at you, but part of a general pattern. Let it out, then you can let it go. It's still a part of your past but its hold on you will be weakened. You keep shining that light and exposing the wicked works! Most people here are friends and on your side.
DWBH: thanks for the further miserable bit of TWI history. The more that's exposed, the more shocking it is.
To think that at one time, I really believed that kids were raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord - in loving kindness and tenderness... (scream)
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tonto
Cake, I'm sorry you and so many other way kids suffered at the hands of those who were supposed to lead by loving example.
I in no way intend to excuse of defend twi or the abusers...I'd be among the last to defend twi and don't doubt they botched many teachings about child-rearing. That said, part of what I remember being taught (at the limb level in TX then by Cindy B**nad*** at Rome City) about using the spoon/rod of correction made/makes sense to me and went something like this:
Never do it out of anger...if you (the parent) first make sure the child knows the rules, (for example, don't touch the knobs on the stove) then he knows what is expected.
Then, when the child touches the knob, get up and give a light tap. Same thing...everytime he touches it. When the kid keeps touching it on purpose just to see if you really mean it is exasperating, but the point is supposed to be to show that you (the parent) mean what you say. The goal is/was supposed to be that the child learns to trust and obey God by trusting and obeying the parents.
Our closest twi friends had a boy eight months older than our son and I can honestly say they were a great example of how to use the spoon/rod correctly. Unfortunately, they were the exception and not the rule. There always seemed to be parents whacking too hard, too often, too over-the-top.
Our son was four when we entered the family corps 11 (1984), was a pretty easy-going kid and managed to make it out of there ok. There was only one incident where an interim-corps staff girl whacked him and left marks on his bottom. My blood still boils when I think about it, so it's probably a good thing I can't remember her name.
Probably because of my background, I don't have a problem with corporal punishment. My parents used to whack me and my sister with a flyswatter (minor infractions) or "the board" (a paddle...reserved for more serious stuff). My father's belt was a last resort. My only complaint is that they would wait until they got mad before we would get a spanking, so it really hurt. However, I never felt abused or unloved because they made sure on a daily basis we knew they loved us.
Also, my parents were the only ones doling out the punishment. There is no way they would have let anyone else lay a hand on us, not a relative, not a friend, and certainly not the preacher. I can hardly imagine what it must have felt like for the twi kids...everywhere they turned there was someone ready and willing to whack them.
One more thing, I've seen households where the kids run all over the parents...not good for anyone involved. There has to be balance or the children will grow up to believe that the world revolves around them. Enough ramblin' from me...slow morning at work. ;)
(edited by tonto to add year of family corps)
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