My time in TWI was savage and brutal, marked with episodes of abuse, physical and mental, and I know that I was not alone. I don't think that there ought to be a special forum for people with stories like these, and it would be nice if folks didn't come along with "ooh, but where's the evidence, I won't believe until it's proven" but they will. I won't be silenced though. That loathesome pile of maggots wins if I ever shut up and take it like I did back then.
I'll share story with you: I was flogged, not spanked, flogged, by a man that I'd never met before in my life, a complete stranger. My parents let this man of god take me to a closed room in our home and flog me for disobeying him. I was a 10 year old kid. He flailed on me with his belt in my parent's bedroom until I sobbed promises of obedience.
Wow! Every time I think I'd heard it all, I hear another testimony that amazes me. I knew that TWI parents could be overly strict, but letting their leadership do the "dirty work" is just nuts. What the hell were they thinking? Especially if it was a leader that you'd never met before. Did they ever give you a reason (or excuse) why they didn't just punish you themselves? Thanks for having the courage to tell your story.
Wow! Every time I think I'd heard it all, I hear another testimony that amazes me. I knew that TWI parents could be overly strict, but letting their leadership do the "dirty work" is just nuts. What the hell were they thinking? Especially if it was a leader that you'd never met before. Did they ever give you a reason (or excuse) why they didn't just punish you themselves? Thanks for having the courage to tell your story.
Actually, he was visiting at our home. I'd disobeyed him on some whim of his; he announced that I needed to be punished. My parents permitted it.
And thanks for the support. Sharing this does scare me, but I don't want to make this all about me -- but I wanted to offer a perspective of what it can be like to offer a personal history and have it questioned. I'm not saying that it's bad to question stuff, because questioning is the essence of good critical thinking... But I think that it is a good idea to consider how, when and why...
I mean, if I were of a mind to, I could poke holes in a story like this, but for what purpose? To prove what point and to whom? Sometimes people are helpless, or enthralled, or terrified, and they can't stop what's happening, and maybe it happens often enough and they live a life of misery because of things like this happening and they're told to keep quiet about it, for whatever reason... but later they find out that there have been others like them. It's not hard to imagine that people like that, freaked out and in pain because somebody in a position of authority (perceived or otherwise) hurt them or took advantage of them, would feel that it's a risk to share a story like this. It's not an academic or legal point with them, and they're not necessarily arguing for a wider condemnation of parties involved (though they may be, too; I dunno). My point is that it can be an affirming and healing gesture to say "thus and such happened to me". It's not about an agenda, per se, if that makes sense.
I'm just saying, no special threads or forums for folks with stories like this, but don't assume that they're about bashing some dead guy who can't speak for himself. It could just be somebody trying to deal with some heavy stuff in the best way that they know how or can handle to at the time.
Actually, he was visiting at our home. I'd disobeyed him on some whim of his; he announced that I needed to be punished. My parents permitted it.
And thanks for the support. Sharing this does scare me, but I don't want to make this all about me -- but I wanted to offer a perspective of what it can be like to offer a personal history and have it questioned. I'm not saying that it's bad to question stuff, because questioning is the essence of good critical thinking... But I think that it is a good idea to consider how, when and why...
Yes, but not when someone shares a personal narrative--it's not appropriate then. If a person is not truthful, they'll reveal themselves. It's not hard to detect. I have no problem believing your experience, Cakes. This reminds me what a psychologist said about OJ's book. He said the reason he believes OJ did it was because he changes voices when he gets to the actual murder part. He then goes into very vivid details and talks about what things smelled like and very minute things that people can remember when they've actually committed a crime.
You just reminded me of something that happened the first time I ate with believers one warm summer day. This was before my indoctrination, I had been to maybe two twig fellowships, and was still questioning everything, and my bs radar was still intact.
A single mother with a probably three year old son was at the table where I was eating. She had long dark hair and he was dark haired also and seemed like a very sensitive child. The next thing I know, she takes a wooden spoon and starts whacking the child and starts quoting a verse about obeying.
The child was very jumpy and had a nervous twitch because I surmised after closer observation that he was anticipating his next whack all through the meal. She probably went through this five or six times. I felt like jerking that piece of wood she was beating him with out of her hand and beating her with it so she'd know how it felt because I'd always felt it was wrong to beat children. The thing is, I reasoned, I'd have to have gotten a board to hit her with to make it comparable in size to what the child was feeling and experiencing physically and psychologically.
I commented on it and the believer beside me told me that was how they did it at HQ and quoted the verse about raising up a child. The child was thin and it was clear he didn't enjoy meal time.
Since when are three year olds expected to have the table manners of adults, I thought?
...The next thing I know, she takes a wooden spoon and starts whacking the child and starts quoting a verse about obeying.
The child was very jumpy and had a nervous twitch because I surmised after closer observation that he was anticipating his next whack all through the meal.
Oh yes. The wooden spoon. Nothing says lovin' like a good smackdown with kitchen hardware.
Everytime I read something about that damn wooden spoon I cring with the memory of using it myself on my oldest.
It was always a firm tap, until one time when she was five years old. I was trying to get her to follow some impossible instruction and was using the spoon on her tush.
It was more than a tap after a few times.
She put her hand on her butt and the spoon broke some blood vessels in her little hand.
I might have broken my sweet girls hand!
I broke every wooden spoon in the house and never used one again. Even now I can't cook with one.
The child forgave me in her five year old way and we moved along in life but today, 21 years later, I can see that little hand..........
(((cake))) I am so sorry. That doesn`t mean crap now, I know...I was one of those mind numbed robots that would have bought it. I am so so sorry honey, for what idiots we (the adults) all were, and for how wrong it was to not protect you little ones. I wish that I could go back in time and just beat the dog dang outta that miserable low life sob that dared to raise his hand to you.
cake, i believe every word you wrote. i have seen it and it was tried on one my kids too. i told the bastard mog if he touched my kid he would be on the ground looking up. who did these bastards think they were anyway
thanks for sharing that horror of physical abuse you withstood at the hands of some pompous, self-inflated mog, who used accepted twi doctrine and practice to cover his obvious psychoemotional disease process...............the fact that your biological parents accepted that doctrine and practice of physical child abuse, and allowed that criminal to "have his way" on your little back, provides further evidence as to why the "mission" of the greasespot remains valid and necessary today..........and, imho, this necessity will continue as long as twi and its various "offshoots" continue to promote the dysfunctional, destructive "teachings" of der victoid through their "ministries" around this country and other countries in which they've managed to gain any footholds!................allow me to explain why i think this way.......
the doctrines and practices of twi-sanctioned child abuse were formulated first at the rome city, indiana "campus".........the twi trustees, particularly coward allen and ding-don wierwille, decided to "allow" dottie moynihan, to get her degree, an ms in counselling, in order to gain access to the legitimate psychiatric counselling which began to make tiny inroads into the bizzarro world of twi "christian counselling" via the following occurrences.............first, stanley reahard (graduate of the 3rd way corps) began developing a twi version of christian counselling in the late 70's, after she read jay adams' book, "competent to counsel", and developed a short "seminar" on "christian counselling" which she began to get "teaching time" for, in order to share her "insights" into what was becoming an obviously increasing "sore spot" and need among the rapidly expanding way corps/family corps household, for a more "professional", and legitimate form of psychoemotional counselling for those suffering from psychological and emotional "problems"........
mark carli, a 6th corps graduate, was working on his Ph.D in counselling psychology during this same time frame, and, in 1979, dr.seym**r l*v*n entered the 6th family corps along with his wife.......dr. l*v*n had been a longstanding, well-respected practitioner of psychiatry for many years in ny, and his presence in the corps was quite noticeable, and "valued", especially by DEW............though der victoid never really "trusted him, because, in vic's words, dr. L. was just another "phoney, jew, shrink" who was somehow a "threat" to the "ministry", though valuable for hype and promotion of how great the corps "training" was, as exemplified by the caliber of "volunteers" it attracted to the in-rez programs........boob and doody moynihan were the corps coordinators at rome city at the time, having taken over for the duncan's in 1978,,,,,,,,,'cuz del had been "caught" growing cannabis at the indiana campus, and "distributing" it among the "in-crowd" of 6th corps, interim corps, and staff at the campus, and even in the surrounding communities near rome city!!.........del's "extra-curricular" activities necessitated his "re-assignment".........and the placement of twi's ultimate "yes man" as coordinator of the family corps was an easy decision for vic!
so, in 1979, the presence of stanley reahard, boob and doody moynihan, and dr.L. dr. chris boul**ge (another family corps participant) at the indiana "campus" , along with the burgeoning need for legitimate "christian counselling" which DEW supported at the BOT level, converged and began to become "institutionalized" in twi........this is when doody moynihan, with the help of some others began the whole "wooden spoon" thing in the early stages of indoctrinating the "new" doctrines and practices of "word-centered" child rearing, parenting, and "christian counselling" into the "hungry minds" of the in-rez corps..........which doctrines and practices quickly became ingrained into the way corps, and filtered quickly "up the way tree" to do the incredible damage, of which cake's sharing is but one example!........though dr. L., and many others protested many of the dysfunctional behaviors which were rapidly spreading throughout twi, they were "officially sanctioned" by vic, DEW, and the moynihans, and the healthy, necessary dissent was squashed!..........the insanity prevailed, and the dysfunctional, abusive doctrines and practices flourished to the point where situations like cake's became the norm!!
people like wayne and fern clapp continued the institutionalization of the physical abuse of twi children via the further "develpoment" and "teaching" of "word-centered parenting and child rearing"......throughout the 1990's, when they "ran" the family corps at rome city............they now run CFF, a "popular" twi offshoot, along with kevin and sarah wierwille guigou, john nessle, and various other ex-twi "clergy"...............while boob and doody continue to this day to be the faithful twi "yes men" they've been for forty years now!!!......under the faithful, and ever-watchful eye, and leadership of rosie rivenbite, current prez of twi!!............what do these "christian leaders" have to say for themselves and their abusive, dysfunctional, even criminal teachings and practices today???..............they won't tell ya!..........but the greasespot will!........hence, my opinion, as stated previously, as to the continued neccesity, relevance, and importance of this website!.......we must continue to tell "the other side" of the story......the side these unapologetic, abusers and liars refuse to tell!!.........you won't find any of these FACTS on their smarmy websites!!........won't find any apologies from them either.....except some half-hearted apologies for vic!!
so.......thanks cake, for having the guts to tell us what happened to you as a kid in twi, at the hands of yet another mog-wannabe, and even your own twi-washed parents!...............and thanks to all of you greasespotters who have told the honest truth about what you personally experienced, while learning "the word, like it has'nt been known since the first century"!..........thankfully, the greasespot cafe continues to provide you all a forum to TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT TWI, by telling your side of the story!.........it won't be stifled or ignored here!..........the liars of twi and its offshoots can't railroad you here!............they don't have the guts!............and, more importantly, they don't have the facts nor the truth on their side!!!................we do!!!....................................peace.
Cake's story and DWBH's response should be in a separate thread in the Way forums, IMO. It will sadly be burried and lost forever in this thread, I am afraid.
Cake, if you are so inclined - cool! If not, I understand.
Cake, I am so sorry for what you experienced. I must say that I experienced first hand observance of that type of behavior at the hands of Pa*l Bro*ks because he thought it was "educational" for us. It broke my heart and made me literally sick to my stomach, which is pretty amazing given how sold out I was to TWI doctrine at the time.
Dottie Moynihan, having so much longevity and credibility in TWI made it that much worse. There are stories of how brutal Bob Moynihan was to his own son that are just plain awful and if I can find links to those I will try to find them. I will give credit, though, to his son's perspective of his own upbringing in how he is (at least WAS) not as anal in the way he was raising his kids, last I heard.
Those things stay with us for life. I wasn't married that long, but the verbal, mental and spiritual abuse at the hands of my ex were less than eight years long, they are deep and impact my daily life to this day. I can only imagine how deep those experiences must be coming from parents and those we were taught to place on a pedestal near and dear to God's heart.
Thank you for sharing your experiences here with us.
Cake- I'm also sorry for what you endured. Your story reminded me of what I saw while I was on my interim year.
I was in Houston at a meeting for Twig Coordinators. (They still called it that.)
J#rry C^gle was leading the meeting and announced that there would be a special meeting with Fr^nklin Sm(th (the then Limb Coordinator) and he was going to teach on (AHEM!) finances.
J#rry said that he wanted both husbands and wives to attend, that there would be no accommodations for children, and parents should either find a babysitter or bring them to the meeting. What he then went on to describe was horrifying.
He said, "If you people would learn to use the rod properly and consistently, you wouldn't have a problem bringing your kids. Here's how you do it."
"The child talks and you tell him to be quiet. If he disobeys you swat him with the spoon and set him down with a coloring book. If he starts talking again, you swat him again. If he starts to scream you take him outside and swat him. You repeat this until he obeys. Eventually he'll get the message and he'll be quiet." (I believe he did say that you don't use a rod on a child younger than 3.)
That sounds so sanitized. Anyone that has ever raised a child knows that it's never that simple - never mind that you're still basically beating your child into submission. Add to that frustration and emotions. The mentality of "I'm missing important stuff." and of course - the mothers had to do most of this. I wasn't married or a parent but I understood the complete guilt that moms felt because they had to miss a teaching. Add all this together and you've got a recipe for some real child abuse. Sick huh?
I made it a habit to NEVER "reprove" a child in this manner - not the children of others and not my own.
I do remember yelling at one mom for verbally abusing her daughter. Her reply was, "She's MY daughter!" I replied, "She's not your's forever! Now stop it!"
I'm perfectly fine with this getting moved out to its own thread. I honestly didn't mean to plow into other thread that way, but the point so many folks there were trying to make was about the impact of personal stories and how awful it can be to have that just dismissed as trying to advance some agenda or something... I started writing one thing and it sort of evolved into my sharing this, and... anyway, I really appreciate the support that everybody's shown.
I was scared to share it, because I think I've only really ever told two other people about this, and... I found myself shaking afterwards.
And I was amazed to see, when folks started saying that they'd seen this too, wow... I got chills. It's vindicating to speak and to be heard. Something empowering about it. Maybe that's what makes empathy so incredible: it's an act that is, by it's nature, a loving one, by no means empty-headed or blind of course, but trying for a moment to reach across and stand in another person's skin, to think and feel like they do for a moment, just long enough... I'm quite overwhelmed.
OMG Dooj, that is exactly what I was told to do with the boys and they were babies! They were only 1 and 3 when I left TWI!!!
I refused. Sometimes I faked it. I would take my son out of the fellowship meeting , which generally was enough to get him crying, probably because he sensed my frustration. Sometimes I would hit my own leg with the spoon just to make the sound.
Good lord! So it did come from HQ on down!!!
At one point, near the end of my TWI days, the branch coordinator and my fellowship coordinator invited me out to lunch. I knew I was "gonna get it" because they never ever did that before. I was right, they wanted to tell me how I was parenting the kids all wrong. Instead, I talked the ears off and barely let them get a word in edgewise
Course, I did eventually get reproved for that as well, but at least I didn't have to sit there and listen to them undermine my confidence in my ability to parent my children.
p.s. I didn't suggest making this its own thread because I thought the other thread would get too off course. I suggested it because I didn't want your story to get buried!! Stories like yours are needed - they let other people who are luking out there know that they are not alone in what they experienced.
The thing that irked me were the leaders who had no kids but thought they were experts because someone taught them how to wield a wooden spoon and justify it with some barely understood verses.
The thing that irked me were the leaders who had no kids but thought they were experts because someone taught them how to wield a wooden spoon and justify it with some barely understood verses.
I'm glad you mentioned that. We all agree that the kind of over-use of the "rod of correction" described here is abusive and harmful. I'd like to ask those of you with children how you do administer discipline (or did, if they are grown), since I have no experience in this area, not having children of my own.
I have heard teachings about the verses that refer to the "rod of correction" so I'm curious as to how you understand them, and how they may have been misunderstood.
For the record, the teachings I heard (which apparently weren't typical) stressed that you DON'T beat them in anger or with the intention of causing pain, but just use the rod as a way of getting their attention. And I also heard it said that the rod was more a symbol of authority than a weapon (the word for "rod" was the same word elsewhere translated "scepter"). They said you should get to the point where you don't even need to use it, but just warning them about it ("Do I have to get the spoon?") would motivate them to obey.
As I said, I've never had the occasion to put those teachings into practice. Anyone's comments on your understanding of the "rod of correction," or ways of disciplining kids that you have found to be beneficial and successful, would be of interest.
(I hope this isn't too far off the subject of this thread. If it is, feel free to move it to a new thread.)
I'm perfectly fine with this getting moved out to its own thread. I honestly didn't mean to plow into other thread that way, but the point so many folks there were trying to make was about the impact of personal stories and how awful it can be to have that just dismissed as trying to advance some agenda or something... I started writing one thing and it sort of evolved into my sharing this, and... anyway, I really appreciate the support that everybody's shown.
I was scared to share it, because I think I've only really ever told two other people about this, and... I found myself shaking afterwards.
And I was amazed to see, when folks started saying that they'd seen this too, wow... I got chills. It's vindicating to speak and to be heard. Something empowering about it. Maybe that's what makes empathy so incredible: it's an act that is, by it's nature, a loving one, by no means empty-headed or blind of course, but trying for a moment to reach across and stand in another person's skin, to think and feel like they do for a moment, just long enough... I'm quite overwhelmed.
Thank you."
thanks once again, cake, for what you posted above!!........it absolutely confirms what i believe to be pawtucket's true heart regarding the "mission" of this website!!.......and you, and every other VICTIM of twi's tragic history of human carnage produced by its foul, dysfunctional, and profoundly misguided "teachings", absolutely deserve every ounce of validation and relief that the sharing of your personal experiences and their corroboration by the similar experiences of other twi refugees produces!!
"I was scared to share it, because I think I've only really ever told two other people about this, and... I found myself shaking afterwards." i, for one, felt those words as i read them cake!!..........the profound pathos pours out of each word in those two short sentences!!...........i got "chills" with you!.........i am hoping that your courage in sharing your suffering will yield complete closure for you in the very near future, regarding this aspect of blatant child abuse you endured at the hands of twi's "greatest teaching of god's word" since the first century!..........be assured that your courage in posting those facts has brought validation and closure to many who read your posts!...........and will bring the same to your heart and soul!....................from our hearts to yours.......................peace!
A spoon was used a great deal on one of our older boys, less so on the oldest, as he was always such a mild-mannered kid.
The youngest two kids got very little of that treatment at all, and by the time we left WayWorld, and they were about 2 and 3, they seldom got any corporal punishment. And when they did, I really don't think it was beneficial at all. At BEST, it made them resentful.
I think that verse of scripture - if indeed we're even understanding it correctly - is simply WRONG. If you want to teach a kid to hit, then hit THEM. If you want them to learn to have a short temper, a lack of compassion and empathy, and to "solve" problems with violence, by all means, smack them around a little.
If you'd like your kids to learn to behave differently, maybe doing the same 'ol stuff that's been done for centuries ISN'T really the answer...
There are lots of theories out there for using a spoon. I've even heard the rationalization that it's better to hit a child with a spoon than a hand because the spoon was not attached to your body and you would have to think about getting it. (Then again there were those parents that put their child's name on a spoon and kept it tucked in their belt. - UGH!) We used to joke about them wanting to invent a "switchblade wooden spoon."
There was also the gal who told me that it was confusing to the child to be hit with a hand because the hand was used to comfort and soothe.
In theory the explanation of "you only use the rod to get their attention" sounds fine and dandy. But - the reality of raising children is that they can drive you up a wall.
Having a potential weapon in your hands when you're angry and/or frustrated is not a good thing.
For the most part, folks were always saying to me, "You're trying to reason with a FOUR YEAR OLD!" Yea.. and? How else will they learn to reason if you don't allow them to try with you? My thinking was that kids need to understand that you love and respect them and were willing to listen to them - even if in the end your decision would stand "just cuz you said so."
Once I was in the middle of cooking I had a wooden spoon in my hand while talking to my oldest who was being her stubborn self (the way I like it BTW.) I used the spoon for emphasis while speaking and hit the counter - and it broke! It startled both of us. (It scared the sh(t outta me!)
After that I spoke to a friend who was a child psychologist married to a child psychiatrist and she recommended some techniques that were much more calm and productive than corporal punishment and threats.
This is a perfect example of how, at times I would see various activities that I knew or suspected were wrong, but had no idea they were anything more than localized anomalies. That's where GSC comes into the picture. It enables you to see the scope of activities that happened on a ministry wide scale. It's a place where I often find myself having an "Aha!, So that's what that was about!" moment.
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WordWolf
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Rocky
More power to ya, cake!
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Eyesopen
You'll get no argument from me on that point Cake!
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Mark Clarke
Wow! Every time I think I'd heard it all, I hear another testimony that amazes me. I knew that TWI parents could be overly strict, but letting their leadership do the "dirty work" is just nuts. What the hell were they thinking? Especially if it was a leader that you'd never met before. Did they ever give you a reason (or excuse) why they didn't just punish you themselves? Thanks for having the courage to tell your story.
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cake
And thanks for the support. Sharing this does scare me, but I don't want to make this all about me -- but I wanted to offer a perspective of what it can be like to offer a personal history and have it questioned. I'm not saying that it's bad to question stuff, because questioning is the essence of good critical thinking... But I think that it is a good idea to consider how, when and why...
I mean, if I were of a mind to, I could poke holes in a story like this, but for what purpose? To prove what point and to whom? Sometimes people are helpless, or enthralled, or terrified, and they can't stop what's happening, and maybe it happens often enough and they live a life of misery because of things like this happening and they're told to keep quiet about it, for whatever reason... but later they find out that there have been others like them. It's not hard to imagine that people like that, freaked out and in pain because somebody in a position of authority (perceived or otherwise) hurt them or took advantage of them, would feel that it's a risk to share a story like this. It's not an academic or legal point with them, and they're not necessarily arguing for a wider condemnation of parties involved (though they may be, too; I dunno). My point is that it can be an affirming and healing gesture to say "thus and such happened to me". It's not about an agenda, per se, if that makes sense.
I'm just saying, no special threads or forums for folks with stories like this, but don't assume that they're about bashing some dead guy who can't speak for himself. It could just be somebody trying to deal with some heavy stuff in the best way that they know how or can handle to at the time.
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waterbuffalo
Yes, but not when someone shares a personal narrative--it's not appropriate then. If a person is not truthful, they'll reveal themselves. It's not hard to detect. I have no problem believing your experience, Cakes. This reminds me what a psychologist said about OJ's book. He said the reason he believes OJ did it was because he changes voices when he gets to the actual murder part. He then goes into very vivid details and talks about what things smelled like and very minute things that people can remember when they've actually committed a crime.
You just reminded me of something that happened the first time I ate with believers one warm summer day. This was before my indoctrination, I had been to maybe two twig fellowships, and was still questioning everything, and my bs radar was still intact.
A single mother with a probably three year old son was at the table where I was eating. She had long dark hair and he was dark haired also and seemed like a very sensitive child. The next thing I know, she takes a wooden spoon and starts whacking the child and starts quoting a verse about obeying.
The child was very jumpy and had a nervous twitch because I surmised after closer observation that he was anticipating his next whack all through the meal. She probably went through this five or six times. I felt like jerking that piece of wood she was beating him with out of her hand and beating her with it so she'd know how it felt because I'd always felt it was wrong to beat children. The thing is, I reasoned, I'd have to have gotten a board to hit her with to make it comparable in size to what the child was feeling and experiencing physically and psychologically.
I commented on it and the believer beside me told me that was how they did it at HQ and quoted the verse about raising up a child. The child was thin and it was clear he didn't enjoy meal time.
Since when are three year olds expected to have the table manners of adults, I thought?
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cake
Oh yes. The wooden spoon. Nothing says lovin' like a good smackdown with kitchen hardware.
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Shellon
Everytime I read something about that damn wooden spoon I cring with the memory of using it myself on my oldest.
It was always a firm tap, until one time when she was five years old. I was trying to get her to follow some impossible instruction and was using the spoon on her tush.
It was more than a tap after a few times.
She put her hand on her butt and the spoon broke some blood vessels in her little hand.
I might have broken my sweet girls hand!
I broke every wooden spoon in the house and never used one again. Even now I can't cook with one.
The child forgave me in her five year old way and we moved along in life but today, 21 years later, I can see that little hand..........
:(
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sealed
(((cake))) I am so sorry. That doesn`t mean crap now, I know...I was one of those mind numbed robots that would have bought it. I am so so sorry honey, for what idiots we (the adults) all were, and for how wrong it was to not protect you little ones. I wish that I could go back in time and just beat the dog dang outta that miserable low life sob that dared to raise his hand to you.
Hells bells he ought to have been in prison.
edited to add:this is rascal btw.
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coolchef
cake, i believe every word you wrote. i have seen it and it was tried on one my kids too. i told the bastard mog if he touched my kid he would be on the ground looking up. who did these bastards think they were anyway
rot in hell you child abusers
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi greasespotters!.................hiya cake!
thanks for sharing that horror of physical abuse you withstood at the hands of some pompous, self-inflated mog, who used accepted twi doctrine and practice to cover his obvious psychoemotional disease process...............the fact that your biological parents accepted that doctrine and practice of physical child abuse, and allowed that criminal to "have his way" on your little back, provides further evidence as to why the "mission" of the greasespot remains valid and necessary today..........and, imho, this necessity will continue as long as twi and its various "offshoots" continue to promote the dysfunctional, destructive "teachings" of der victoid through their "ministries" around this country and other countries in which they've managed to gain any footholds!................allow me to explain why i think this way.......
the doctrines and practices of twi-sanctioned child abuse were formulated first at the rome city, indiana "campus".........the twi trustees, particularly coward allen and ding-don wierwille, decided to "allow" dottie moynihan, to get her degree, an ms in counselling, in order to gain access to the legitimate psychiatric counselling which began to make tiny inroads into the bizzarro world of twi "christian counselling" via the following occurrences.............first, stanley reahard (graduate of the 3rd way corps) began developing a twi version of christian counselling in the late 70's, after she read jay adams' book, "competent to counsel", and developed a short "seminar" on "christian counselling" which she began to get "teaching time" for, in order to share her "insights" into what was becoming an obviously increasing "sore spot" and need among the rapidly expanding way corps/family corps household, for a more "professional", and legitimate form of psychoemotional counselling for those suffering from psychological and emotional "problems"........
mark carli, a 6th corps graduate, was working on his Ph.D in counselling psychology during this same time frame, and, in 1979, dr.seym**r l*v*n entered the 6th family corps along with his wife.......dr. l*v*n had been a longstanding, well-respected practitioner of psychiatry for many years in ny, and his presence in the corps was quite noticeable, and "valued", especially by DEW............though der victoid never really "trusted him, because, in vic's words, dr. L. was just another "phoney, jew, shrink" who was somehow a "threat" to the "ministry", though valuable for hype and promotion of how great the corps "training" was, as exemplified by the caliber of "volunteers" it attracted to the in-rez programs........boob and doody moynihan were the corps coordinators at rome city at the time, having taken over for the duncan's in 1978,,,,,,,,,'cuz del had been "caught" growing cannabis at the indiana campus, and "distributing" it among the "in-crowd" of 6th corps, interim corps, and staff at the campus, and even in the surrounding communities near rome city!!.........del's "extra-curricular" activities necessitated his "re-assignment".........and the placement of twi's ultimate "yes man" as coordinator of the family corps was an easy decision for vic!
so, in 1979, the presence of stanley reahard, boob and doody moynihan, and dr.L. dr. chris boul**ge (another family corps participant) at the indiana "campus" , along with the burgeoning need for legitimate "christian counselling" which DEW supported at the BOT level, converged and began to become "institutionalized" in twi........this is when doody moynihan, with the help of some others began the whole "wooden spoon" thing in the early stages of indoctrinating the "new" doctrines and practices of "word-centered" child rearing, parenting, and "christian counselling" into the "hungry minds" of the in-rez corps..........which doctrines and practices quickly became ingrained into the way corps, and filtered quickly "up the way tree" to do the incredible damage, of which cake's sharing is but one example!........though dr. L., and many others protested many of the dysfunctional behaviors which were rapidly spreading throughout twi, they were "officially sanctioned" by vic, DEW, and the moynihans, and the healthy, necessary dissent was squashed!..........the insanity prevailed, and the dysfunctional, abusive doctrines and practices flourished to the point where situations like cake's became the norm!!
people like wayne and fern clapp continued the institutionalization of the physical abuse of twi children via the further "develpoment" and "teaching" of "word-centered parenting and child rearing"......throughout the 1990's, when they "ran" the family corps at rome city............they now run CFF, a "popular" twi offshoot, along with kevin and sarah wierwille guigou, john nessle, and various other ex-twi "clergy"...............while boob and doody continue to this day to be the faithful twi "yes men" they've been for forty years now!!!......under the faithful, and ever-watchful eye, and leadership of rosie rivenbite, current prez of twi!!............what do these "christian leaders" have to say for themselves and their abusive, dysfunctional, even criminal teachings and practices today???..............they won't tell ya!..........but the greasespot will!........hence, my opinion, as stated previously, as to the continued neccesity, relevance, and importance of this website!.......we must continue to tell "the other side" of the story......the side these unapologetic, abusers and liars refuse to tell!!.........you won't find any of these FACTS on their smarmy websites!!........won't find any apologies from them either.....except some half-hearted apologies for vic!!
so.......thanks cake, for having the guts to tell us what happened to you as a kid in twi, at the hands of yet another mog-wannabe, and even your own twi-washed parents!...............and thanks to all of you greasespotters who have told the honest truth about what you personally experienced, while learning "the word, like it has'nt been known since the first century"!..........thankfully, the greasespot cafe continues to provide you all a forum to TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT TWI, by telling your side of the story!.........it won't be stifled or ignored here!..........the liars of twi and its offshoots can't railroad you here!............they don't have the guts!............and, more importantly, they don't have the facts nor the truth on their side!!!................we do!!!....................................peace.
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waterbuffalo
What a mess. Thanks for filling in the blanks, DW
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Abigail
Cake's story and DWBH's response should be in a separate thread in the Way forums, IMO. It will sadly be burried and lost forever in this thread, I am afraid.
Cake, if you are so inclined - cool! If not, I understand.
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rascal
I second...
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Belle
Cake, I am so sorry for what you experienced. I must say that I experienced first hand observance of that type of behavior at the hands of Pa*l Bro*ks because he thought it was "educational" for us. It broke my heart and made me literally sick to my stomach, which is pretty amazing given how sold out I was to TWI doctrine at the time.
Dottie Moynihan, having so much longevity and credibility in TWI made it that much worse. There are stories of how brutal Bob Moynihan was to his own son that are just plain awful and if I can find links to those I will try to find them. I will give credit, though, to his son's perspective of his own upbringing in how he is (at least WAS) not as anal in the way he was raising his kids, last I heard.
Those things stay with us for life. I wasn't married that long, but the verbal, mental and spiritual abuse at the hands of my ex were less than eight years long, they are deep and impact my daily life to this day. I can only imagine how deep those experiences must be coming from parents and those we were taught to place on a pedestal near and dear to God's heart.
Thank you for sharing your experiences here with us.
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doojable
Cake- I'm also sorry for what you endured. Your story reminded me of what I saw while I was on my interim year.
I was in Houston at a meeting for Twig Coordinators. (They still called it that.)
J#rry C^gle was leading the meeting and announced that there would be a special meeting with Fr^nklin Sm(th (the then Limb Coordinator) and he was going to teach on (AHEM!) finances.
J#rry said that he wanted both husbands and wives to attend, that there would be no accommodations for children, and parents should either find a babysitter or bring them to the meeting. What he then went on to describe was horrifying.
He said, "If you people would learn to use the rod properly and consistently, you wouldn't have a problem bringing your kids. Here's how you do it."
"The child talks and you tell him to be quiet. If he disobeys you swat him with the spoon and set him down with a coloring book. If he starts talking again, you swat him again. If he starts to scream you take him outside and swat him. You repeat this until he obeys. Eventually he'll get the message and he'll be quiet." (I believe he did say that you don't use a rod on a child younger than 3.)
That sounds so sanitized. Anyone that has ever raised a child knows that it's never that simple - never mind that you're still basically beating your child into submission. Add to that frustration and emotions. The mentality of "I'm missing important stuff." and of course - the mothers had to do most of this. I wasn't married or a parent but I understood the complete guilt that moms felt because they had to miss a teaching. Add all this together and you've got a recipe for some real child abuse. Sick huh?
I made it a habit to NEVER "reprove" a child in this manner - not the children of others and not my own.
I do remember yelling at one mom for verbally abusing her daughter. Her reply was, "She's MY daughter!" I replied, "She's not your's forever! Now stop it!"
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cake
What a ghastly name for a thread!
jk
I'm perfectly fine with this getting moved out to its own thread. I honestly didn't mean to plow into other thread that way, but the point so many folks there were trying to make was about the impact of personal stories and how awful it can be to have that just dismissed as trying to advance some agenda or something... I started writing one thing and it sort of evolved into my sharing this, and... anyway, I really appreciate the support that everybody's shown.
I was scared to share it, because I think I've only really ever told two other people about this, and... I found myself shaking afterwards.
And I was amazed to see, when folks started saying that they'd seen this too, wow... I got chills. It's vindicating to speak and to be heard. Something empowering about it. Maybe that's what makes empathy so incredible: it's an act that is, by it's nature, a loving one, by no means empty-headed or blind of course, but trying for a moment to reach across and stand in another person's skin, to think and feel like they do for a moment, just long enough... I'm quite overwhelmed.
Thank you.
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Abigail
OMG Dooj, that is exactly what I was told to do with the boys and they were babies! They were only 1 and 3 when I left TWI!!!
I refused. Sometimes I faked it. I would take my son out of the fellowship meeting , which generally was enough to get him crying, probably because he sensed my frustration. Sometimes I would hit my own leg with the spoon just to make the sound.
Good lord! So it did come from HQ on down!!!
At one point, near the end of my TWI days, the branch coordinator and my fellowship coordinator invited me out to lunch. I knew I was "gonna get it" because they never ever did that before. I was right, they wanted to tell me how I was parenting the kids all wrong. Instead, I talked the ears off and barely let them get a word in edgewise
Course, I did eventually get reproved for that as well, but at least I didn't have to sit there and listen to them undermine my confidence in my ability to parent my children.
p.s. I didn't suggest making this its own thread because I thought the other thread would get too off course. I suggested it because I didn't want your story to get buried!! Stories like yours are needed - they let other people who are luking out there know that they are not alone in what they experienced.
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doojable
Holy crap Abi!
What arrogant anal orifices!
The thing that irked me were the leaders who had no kids but thought they were experts because someone taught them how to wield a wooden spoon and justify it with some barely understood verses.
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Mark Clarke
I'm glad you mentioned that. We all agree that the kind of over-use of the "rod of correction" described here is abusive and harmful. I'd like to ask those of you with children how you do administer discipline (or did, if they are grown), since I have no experience in this area, not having children of my own.
I have heard teachings about the verses that refer to the "rod of correction" so I'm curious as to how you understand them, and how they may have been misunderstood.
For the record, the teachings I heard (which apparently weren't typical) stressed that you DON'T beat them in anger or with the intention of causing pain, but just use the rod as a way of getting their attention. And I also heard it said that the rod was more a symbol of authority than a weapon (the word for "rod" was the same word elsewhere translated "scepter"). They said you should get to the point where you don't even need to use it, but just warning them about it ("Do I have to get the spoon?") would motivate them to obey.
As I said, I've never had the occasion to put those teachings into practice. Anyone's comments on your understanding of the "rod of correction," or ways of disciplining kids that you have found to be beneficial and successful, would be of interest.
(I hope this isn't too far off the subject of this thread. If it is, feel free to move it to a new thread.)
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi again greasespotters!
"What a ghastly name for a thread!
jk
I'm perfectly fine with this getting moved out to its own thread. I honestly didn't mean to plow into other thread that way, but the point so many folks there were trying to make was about the impact of personal stories and how awful it can be to have that just dismissed as trying to advance some agenda or something... I started writing one thing and it sort of evolved into my sharing this, and... anyway, I really appreciate the support that everybody's shown.
I was scared to share it, because I think I've only really ever told two other people about this, and... I found myself shaking afterwards.
And I was amazed to see, when folks started saying that they'd seen this too, wow... I got chills. It's vindicating to speak and to be heard. Something empowering about it. Maybe that's what makes empathy so incredible: it's an act that is, by it's nature, a loving one, by no means empty-headed or blind of course, but trying for a moment to reach across and stand in another person's skin, to think and feel like they do for a moment, just long enough... I'm quite overwhelmed.
Thank you."
thanks once again, cake, for what you posted above!!........it absolutely confirms what i believe to be pawtucket's true heart regarding the "mission" of this website!!.......and you, and every other VICTIM of twi's tragic history of human carnage produced by its foul, dysfunctional, and profoundly misguided "teachings", absolutely deserve every ounce of validation and relief that the sharing of your personal experiences and their corroboration by the similar experiences of other twi refugees produces!!
"I was scared to share it, because I think I've only really ever told two other people about this, and... I found myself shaking afterwards." i, for one, felt those words as i read them cake!!..........the profound pathos pours out of each word in those two short sentences!!...........i got "chills" with you!.........i am hoping that your courage in sharing your suffering will yield complete closure for you in the very near future, regarding this aspect of blatant child abuse you endured at the hands of twi's "greatest teaching of god's word" since the first century!..........be assured that your courage in posting those facts has brought validation and closure to many who read your posts!...........and will bring the same to your heart and soul!....................from our hearts to yours.......................peace!
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George Aar
Mark,
A spoon was used a great deal on one of our older boys, less so on the oldest, as he was always such a mild-mannered kid.
The youngest two kids got very little of that treatment at all, and by the time we left WayWorld, and they were about 2 and 3, they seldom got any corporal punishment. And when they did, I really don't think it was beneficial at all. At BEST, it made them resentful.
I think that verse of scripture - if indeed we're even understanding it correctly - is simply WRONG. If you want to teach a kid to hit, then hit THEM. If you want them to learn to have a short temper, a lack of compassion and empathy, and to "solve" problems with violence, by all means, smack them around a little.
If you'd like your kids to learn to behave differently, maybe doing the same 'ol stuff that's been done for centuries ISN'T really the answer...
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doojable
Mark -
There are lots of theories out there for using a spoon. I've even heard the rationalization that it's better to hit a child with a spoon than a hand because the spoon was not attached to your body and you would have to think about getting it. (Then again there were those parents that put their child's name on a spoon and kept it tucked in their belt. - UGH!) We used to joke about them wanting to invent a "switchblade wooden spoon."
There was also the gal who told me that it was confusing to the child to be hit with a hand because the hand was used to comfort and soothe.
In theory the explanation of "you only use the rod to get their attention" sounds fine and dandy. But - the reality of raising children is that they can drive you up a wall.
Having a potential weapon in your hands when you're angry and/or frustrated is not a good thing.
For the most part, folks were always saying to me, "You're trying to reason with a FOUR YEAR OLD!" Yea.. and? How else will they learn to reason if you don't allow them to try with you? My thinking was that kids need to understand that you love and respect them and were willing to listen to them - even if in the end your decision would stand "just cuz you said so."
Once I was in the middle of cooking I had a wooden spoon in my hand while talking to my oldest who was being her stubborn self (the way I like it BTW.) I used the spoon for emphasis while speaking and hit the counter - and it broke! It startled both of us. (It scared the sh(t outta me!)
After that I spoke to a friend who was a child psychologist married to a child psychiatrist and she recommended some techniques that were much more calm and productive than corporal punishment and threats.
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waysider
This is a perfect example of how, at times I would see various activities that I knew or suspected were wrong, but had no idea they were anything more than localized anomalies. That's where GSC comes into the picture. It enables you to see the scope of activities that happened on a ministry wide scale. It's a place where I often find myself having an "Aha!, So that's what that was about!" moment.
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