The good news is that so far on Amazon, Rita and McKeon were the only two negative reviews out of ten. The others were all supportive and in agreement. Plus those two negative reviews received rebuttals in the comments section.
It's not just the numbers IMO. I don't think I have come across any great discovery when I am talking about the time it takes a person to talk about something traumatic. I think most people outside of the TWI world can understand at least somewhat about why victims of any abuse often don't talk about it right away.
As far as Rita's apparently sarcastic comment about Kristen remembering events in "extreme detail", well, TWI life, no matter how good or bad we think of it, was a big part of most peoples' lives, and I think most of us could remember lots of little details. If Rita thinks Kristen is remembering too much detail to not be making it up, well, just for one for example, regarding that first 8th corps residence year, I could put both Kristen and Rita to shame I am sure with my memory of details of that year (see my not so humble remark on one of my early posts on this thread). But be assured, Kristen does a very good job remembering, and remembers correctly from that year.
I got my copy and read about half in one day. I couldn't put it down. I'm hoping to get some reading time this weekend so I can finish it.
a lot of things are milling around in my head from what I've read so far, but the most significant is how easily and how deeply organizations like twi can pull in the walking wounded and condition them to be cannon fodder.
I got my copy and read about half in one day. I couldn't put it down. I'm hoping to get some reading time this weekend so I can finish it.
That's about how I was when I first got it. She wrote her account as she lived it; a main reason IMO the reader can live it also. Of course, covering some of the same events and people partly at the same time and place i was in (8th corps apprentice and first residence year) also helped me understand the reality of what she went through.
I finished the book. although my therapist was concerned about me choosing this time to read it, I think it was a very positive experience.
I wasn't around when vpw was prez, but the things she described were carried through and affected the entire organization. the methods used on her were also used on me, to the point I also felt trapped and confused. I could very much relate to her inward battle.
also, she wraps up the book with some incredibly useful advice for anyone making the choice to get away. choosing a therapist or legal counsel with no knowledge of the cult hive mind can indeed make things so much more difficult. I was ashamed to bring up my cult involvement at first when looking for mental and legal help, but I've learned that I have to make sure the people I hire to help me are able to deal with that part of my reality.
OK, so it's been over a year since the book was published, and late last year since the last post on this thread (previous to the one I'm making now). But I think it is time to bring this to the top; once anyway.
I won't rehash my thoughts on the importance of testimony versus lecture, even though it's the reason I got so much from Kristen's book. My thoughts can be found on posts I made last year on this thread.
Presumably, there are a few new people who weren't around GS when the book came out. But more importantly, I don't think an account like this never gets too old. If it does, then it was old when it came out last year. But most of us know better than that.
People who have suffered abuse know how long the effects can last (like a lifetime). I did not suffer the kind of abuse Kris did, though someone else (excie) who did, helped my understanding of this truth by pointing something out about my own experiences. Yet, there is a natural reaction by anyone to show less interest in an event that is long past timewise, even if the effects of the event are still around. Not having communicated with Kris about this, I don't know if that has anything in the least to do with why we didn't see the scheduled feature on Fox & Friends last year, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
Anyway, Kristen's book is of course just as relevant as ever.
Funny that the last entry was on my birthday. Last year, I received this book for my birthday from a friend (also former wayfer). I decided to list it on ebay and did a couple hours ago. Starting bid is .99 but I believe it will go higher than that. I pray that whoever gets it, takes it to heart, reads it, and passes it on to others as I did.
"Losing the Way" was life changing to me because it cut through the fog. I am very thankful Kris Skedgell did what she needed to do to get the book published. It's a life changer.
Former TWI president Martindale resigned after female followers of TWI filed lawsuits against him, alleging he exploited them for sex. His first thought must have been- "but I haven't done anything wrong." According to TWI theology, he indeed had not done anything wrong.
The article The Way's Theology of Sex: How Way Leaders Used the Bible to Promote Promiscuity and Adultery http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/sut_sextheology.htm"[/url] describes in detail how leaders used Way theology to persuade women to have sex with them, and how the Way's sex class prepared students for promiscuous sex. It includes accounts of Kristen Skedgell's sexual experiences with TWI leaders from her book Losing the Way.
The Way's "Biblical Research and Teaching" gave guys a great tool to use to seduce vulnerable young women. Oddly enough, the theology did not seem to apply to old women, too.
Former TWI president Martindale resigned after female followers of TWI filed lawsuits against him, alleging he exploited them for sex. His first thought must have been- "but I haven't done anything wrong." According to TWI theology, he indeed had not done anything wrong.
Actually, this theology was not taught across the board. I don't know what was taught in CF&S as I never took the class. My husband who had, never suggested that it would be good for me to do so.
When this sexual behavior became public, whole branches left when it became apparent that leadership was not going to address these issues with the rank and file. People who stayed decided they wouldn't believe the accusations, or that the accusations didn't matter. Once we were gone, it was clear from the occasional letter from headquarters that things had definitely taken a turn for the worse. It was after one homophobic rant that I mailed headquarters and asked them to remove us from their mailing list. We have had no further contact.
While we were involved, there was not any suggestion that sex outside of marriage was a good thing, with the exception of one instance. I found out a girl had been seduced by a WC grad and was involved in a sexual relationship - until she took the class - after which he promptly dropped her because she had become his "sister in Christ". I confronted the young man and was told by him that people were supposed to do "anything it takes" to being people to the Word. I went to the Limb leader and asked him if this was sanctioned behavior, and he assured me that it was an isolated incident. My husband, who had been WoW and an AC grad, was not aware of any of this behavior.
It appears that certain practices in WC were designed to find out who was susceptible and exploit them, because there were WC who never had any idea this stuff was going on. Several WC admitted to indulging in very heavy petting, which, by their accounts, was considered an acceptable sexual outlet. But again, this was not something taught across the board.
I believe there were 2 major types of people in TWI. The first type were the ones who hung on every word that leadership spoke and devoured all the teaching, attended all the classes, and felt the need to go WoW and enter the WC. The second type found the PFAL class "useful" for providing a systematic approach to the study of the Bible. Most of the people I knew were the second type, including myself.
I believed that as long as one stuck to the system taught in PFAL, one could keep from getting sucked into wrong teaching that was harmful regardless of the source. I found that doing so required a limited level of commitment to the organization, which was frowned upon, but not impossible. I noticed in about 1981 that people started paying more attention to leadership and not paying attention to leadership's movement away from its own principles of study. I started noticing more of a sheep mentality. Around that time, I also started getting bored with the teaching, so for me that boredom made it easier to ignore the teachings. There isn't much that stands out to me as being particularly useful other than "learn to read what's written on the page" and "context". Beyond those 2 things, the whole thing was (what I thought at the time) an attempt to be scientific and intellectual in the approach to Scripture that bordered on the inane.
I freely admit that I appreciated TWI for the system of study until recently. As I get more into systems of study, I have found that all systems are based on a set of premises and those premises are subject to bias. The further I move away from systematic theology, the more ridiculous I believe it is.
CF & S seemed pretty harmless when I took it and helped BB run it at Indy about 1976-77...or was that the one Good Seed ran at Limb HQ? Well, maybe my old Indy buddy you-know-who has some memories, since he and BB and I spent some time together. Anyway, I really had no hint that this meant anything out of the way, so to speak...all the way till I had a "loosening up" lesson worked on me in my last residence year at HQ. Till then, my impression was that among the rank and file, even rank and file corps, there was no non pure sexual suggestions along the lines that happened to Kristen. But that little incident, whose memory was for me magnified by hearing thi8ngs said about me when people didn't know I was hearning them, is an important factor in seeing how all that Kristen describes happened to her.
I sold my book on ebay and had over 70 hits on it. Many people who love VP read about this book. It is the least I can do!!! The person who bought it knows of GS and has posted on another website that was around years ago. Hopefully, he will read it and pass it on, and then sell it on ebay too.
May God bless Kristen is a very special way for writing this expose'.
I sold my book on ebay and had over 70 hits on it. Many people who love VP read about this book. It is the least I can do!!! The person who bought it knows of GS and has posted on another website that was around years ago. Hopefully, he will read it and pass it on, and then sell it on ebay too.
May God bless Kristen is a very special way for writing this expose'.
No, it is not out of print, but so many 'followers' check ebay for anything concerning VP. If you put Wierwille The Way in the subject line, your listing gets more hits which means more people are exposed to the book. Follow my line of thinking?? The book can still be bought on Amazon AFAIK.
No, it is not out of print, but so many 'followers' check ebay for anything concerning VP. If you put Wierwille The Way in the subject line, your listing gets more hits which means more people are exposed to the book. Follow my line out thinking?? The book can still be bought on Amazon AFAIK.
Thanks, Act2 :) I haven't bought it yet b/c I've had lots of reading assignments and hhaven't had time. Maybe someday I'll get around to it. It sounds good.
Thanks, Act2 :) I haven't bought it yet b/c I've had lots of reading assignments and hhaven't had time. Maybe someday I'll get around to it. It sounds good.
[/quote
It is easy reading but very disturbing to think that those things went on and we didn't know about it. I am taking 2 classes this semester. Finished with a 4.0 for my summer class, Intro to Business!! Good luck to you.
just got the book yesterday. I had no idea that Kris was bi-polar. I was happy that she remarried someone else. What ever happened to her ex? Did he divorce the 2nd woman? Is he still in TWI or 1 of the offshoots? Was he ever prosecuted for abuse? Also why was Dorthea Kipp Wierwille and Donald given aliases, but Harry was not? Also why relocate Pikes Peak from Colorado to New Mexico? Inquiring minds want to know. Finally Kris, if you are reading this, know that I and others here at GSC are always here to listen to you.
This book along with Karl Kahler's The Cult that Snapped gives us an insiders look at TWI. I don't know if Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Cummins, Sarah, John Paul, and others would have threatened a lawsuit if their names had specificly been used or not. It is a shame that Kristen couldn't have used real names in her account like Dopp and Heaver like Karl had in his book for top leadership. I understand about twig and branch leaders and "leaves" being given aliases/psudeonyms to protect the innocent. Still kudos for Kris giving her story and the long road from sexual abuse/predator manipulation/addiction and mind control. My prayers for her continual recovery.
This book along with Karl Kahler's The Cult that Snapped gives us an insiders look at TWI. I don't know if Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Cummins, Sarah, John Paul, and others would have threatened a lawsuit if their names had specificly been used or not. It is a shame that Kristen couldn't have used real names in her account like Dopp and Heaver like Karl had in his book for top leadership. I understand about twig and branch leaders and "leaves" being given aliases/psudeonyms to protect the innocent. Still kudos for Kris giving her story and the long road from sexual abuse/predator manipulation/addiction and mind control. My prayers for her continual recovery.
Thomas,
You should listen to the podcasts that I did with Kristen. Her husband remarried and left TWI.
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Lifted Up
I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but
potato
I'm gonna pass on clicking the link because I remember ck too well now, but I encourage newcomers to do so. ck's writing is a good example of what happens to your brain when you make a man into a god.
Lifted Up
Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).
excathedra
PLEASE don't take this the wrong way
i am so sick and tired of the validation thing even though it's what i lived for here (waydale etc)
i'm actually starting to believe myself no matter who says what ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
thanks
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potato
that's a good thing, excie!
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excathedra
thank you sweet potato
i just apologized to you on another thread
i feel bad
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potato
I went and read it just now... don't be sorry excie!
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Lifted Up
It's not just the numbers IMO. I don't think I have come across any great discovery when I am talking about the time it takes a person to talk about something traumatic. I think most people outside of the TWI world can understand at least somewhat about why victims of any abuse often don't talk about it right away.
As far as Rita's apparently sarcastic comment about Kristen remembering events in "extreme detail", well, TWI life, no matter how good or bad we think of it, was a big part of most peoples' lives, and I think most of us could remember lots of little details. If Rita thinks Kristen is remembering too much detail to not be making it up, well, just for one for example, regarding that first 8th corps residence year, I could put both Kristen and Rita to shame I am sure with my memory of details of that year (see my not so humble remark on one of my early posts on this thread). But be assured, Kristen does a very good job remembering, and remembers correctly from that year.
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potato
I got my copy and read about half in one day. I couldn't put it down. I'm hoping to get some reading time this weekend so I can finish it.
a lot of things are milling around in my head from what I've read so far, but the most significant is how easily and how deeply organizations like twi can pull in the walking wounded and condition them to be cannon fodder.
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Lifted Up
That's about how I was when I first got it. She wrote her account as she lived it; a main reason IMO the reader can live it also. Of course, covering some of the same events and people partly at the same time and place i was in (8th corps apprentice and first residence year) also helped me understand the reality of what she went through.
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potato
I finished the book. although my therapist was concerned about me choosing this time to read it, I think it was a very positive experience.
I wasn't around when vpw was prez, but the things she described were carried through and affected the entire organization. the methods used on her were also used on me, to the point I also felt trapped and confused. I could very much relate to her inward battle.
also, she wraps up the book with some incredibly useful advice for anyone making the choice to get away. choosing a therapist or legal counsel with no knowledge of the cult hive mind can indeed make things so much more difficult. I was ashamed to bring up my cult involvement at first when looking for mental and legal help, but I've learned that I have to make sure the people I hire to help me are able to deal with that part of my reality.
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Lifted Up
OK, so it's been over a year since the book was published, and late last year since the last post on this thread (previous to the one I'm making now). But I think it is time to bring this to the top; once anyway.
I won't rehash my thoughts on the importance of testimony versus lecture, even though it's the reason I got so much from Kristen's book. My thoughts can be found on posts I made last year on this thread.
Presumably, there are a few new people who weren't around GS when the book came out. But more importantly, I don't think an account like this never gets too old. If it does, then it was old when it came out last year. But most of us know better than that.
People who have suffered abuse know how long the effects can last (like a lifetime). I did not suffer the kind of abuse Kris did, though someone else (excie) who did, helped my understanding of this truth by pointing something out about my own experiences. Yet, there is a natural reaction by anyone to show less interest in an event that is long past timewise, even if the effects of the event are still around. Not having communicated with Kris about this, I don't know if that has anything in the least to do with why we didn't see the scheduled feature on Fox & Friends last year, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
Anyway, Kristen's book is of course just as relevant as ever.
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waysider
I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants a better understanding of the complexities of abuse.
edit:
You can order it through Amazon by going to the home page here.
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act2
Funny that the last entry was on my birthday. Last year, I received this book for my birthday from a friend (also former wayfer). I decided to list it on ebay and did a couple hours ago. Starting bid is .99 but I believe it will go higher than that. I pray that whoever gets it, takes it to heart, reads it, and passes it on to others as I did.
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Kit Sober
"Losing the Way" was life changing to me because it cut through the fog. I am very thankful Kris Skedgell did what she needed to do to get the book published. It's a life changer.
Thanks, Kris!
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johnj
Former TWI president Martindale resigned after female followers of TWI filed lawsuits against him, alleging he exploited them for sex. His first thought must have been- "but I haven't done anything wrong." According to TWI theology, he indeed had not done anything wrong.
The article The Way's Theology of Sex: How Way Leaders Used the Bible to Promote Promiscuity and Adultery http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/sut_sextheology.htm"[/url] describes in detail how leaders used Way theology to persuade women to have sex with them, and how the Way's sex class prepared students for promiscuous sex. It includes accounts of Kristen Skedgell's sexual experiences with TWI leaders from her book Losing the Way.
The Way's "Biblical Research and Teaching" gave guys a great tool to use to seduce vulnerable young women. Oddly enough, the theology did not seem to apply to old women, too.
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Tzaia
Actually, this theology was not taught across the board. I don't know what was taught in CF&S as I never took the class. My husband who had, never suggested that it would be good for me to do so.
When this sexual behavior became public, whole branches left when it became apparent that leadership was not going to address these issues with the rank and file. People who stayed decided they wouldn't believe the accusations, or that the accusations didn't matter. Once we were gone, it was clear from the occasional letter from headquarters that things had definitely taken a turn for the worse. It was after one homophobic rant that I mailed headquarters and asked them to remove us from their mailing list. We have had no further contact.
While we were involved, there was not any suggestion that sex outside of marriage was a good thing, with the exception of one instance. I found out a girl had been seduced by a WC grad and was involved in a sexual relationship - until she took the class - after which he promptly dropped her because she had become his "sister in Christ". I confronted the young man and was told by him that people were supposed to do "anything it takes" to being people to the Word. I went to the Limb leader and asked him if this was sanctioned behavior, and he assured me that it was an isolated incident. My husband, who had been WoW and an AC grad, was not aware of any of this behavior.
It appears that certain practices in WC were designed to find out who was susceptible and exploit them, because there were WC who never had any idea this stuff was going on. Several WC admitted to indulging in very heavy petting, which, by their accounts, was considered an acceptable sexual outlet. But again, this was not something taught across the board.
I believe there were 2 major types of people in TWI. The first type were the ones who hung on every word that leadership spoke and devoured all the teaching, attended all the classes, and felt the need to go WoW and enter the WC. The second type found the PFAL class "useful" for providing a systematic approach to the study of the Bible. Most of the people I knew were the second type, including myself.
I believed that as long as one stuck to the system taught in PFAL, one could keep from getting sucked into wrong teaching that was harmful regardless of the source. I found that doing so required a limited level of commitment to the organization, which was frowned upon, but not impossible. I noticed in about 1981 that people started paying more attention to leadership and not paying attention to leadership's movement away from its own principles of study. I started noticing more of a sheep mentality. Around that time, I also started getting bored with the teaching, so for me that boredom made it easier to ignore the teachings. There isn't much that stands out to me as being particularly useful other than "learn to read what's written on the page" and "context". Beyond those 2 things, the whole thing was (what I thought at the time) an attempt to be scientific and intellectual in the approach to Scripture that bordered on the inane.
I freely admit that I appreciated TWI for the system of study until recently. As I get more into systems of study, I have found that all systems are based on a set of premises and those premises are subject to bias. The further I move away from systematic theology, the more ridiculous I believe it is.
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Lifted Up
CF & S seemed pretty harmless when I took it and helped BB run it at Indy about 1976-77...or was that the one Good Seed ran at Limb HQ? Well, maybe my old Indy buddy you-know-who has some memories, since he and BB and I spent some time together. Anyway, I really had no hint that this meant anything out of the way, so to speak...all the way till I had a "loosening up" lesson worked on me in my last residence year at HQ. Till then, my impression was that among the rank and file, even rank and file corps, there was no non pure sexual suggestions along the lines that happened to Kristen. But that little incident, whose memory was for me magnified by hearing thi8ngs said about me when people didn't know I was hearning them, is an important factor in seeing how all that Kristen describes happened to her.
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act2
I sold my book on ebay and had over 70 hits on it. Many people who love VP read about this book. It is the least I can do!!! The person who bought it knows of GS and has posted on another website that was around years ago. Hopefully, he will read it and pass it on, and then sell it on ebay too.
May God bless Kristen is a very special way for writing this expose'.
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waterbuffalo
Hey Act2! Is it out of print?
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act2
No, it is not out of print, but so many 'followers' check ebay for anything concerning VP. If you put Wierwille The Way in the subject line, your listing gets more hits which means more people are exposed to the book. Follow my line of thinking?? The book can still be bought on Amazon AFAIK.
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waterbuffalo
Thanks, Act2 :) I haven't bought it yet b/c I've had lots of reading assignments and hhaven't had time. Maybe someday I'll get around to it. It sounds good.
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act2
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Lifted Up
Kristen has a follow-up coming, a sequel of sorts...her blog is still active (losingtheway.com)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
just got the book yesterday. I had no idea that Kris was bi-polar. I was happy that she remarried someone else. What ever happened to her ex? Did he divorce the 2nd woman? Is he still in TWI or 1 of the offshoots? Was he ever prosecuted for abuse? Also why was Dorthea Kipp Wierwille and Donald given aliases, but Harry was not? Also why relocate Pikes Peak from Colorado to New Mexico? Inquiring minds want to know. Finally Kris, if you are reading this, know that I and others here at GSC are always here to listen to you.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
This book along with Karl Kahler's The Cult that Snapped gives us an insiders look at TWI. I don't know if Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Cummins, Sarah, John Paul, and others would have threatened a lawsuit if their names had specificly been used or not. It is a shame that Kristen couldn't have used real names in her account like Dopp and Heaver like Karl had in his book for top leadership. I understand about twig and branch leaders and "leaves" being given aliases/psudeonyms to protect the innocent. Still kudos for Kris giving her story and the long road from sexual abuse/predator manipulation/addiction and mind control. My prayers for her continual recovery.
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pawtucket
Thomas,
You should listen to the podcasts that I did with Kristen. Her husband remarried and left TWI.
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