Ten Years Ago -- July 1998

[Rocky]

It's my opinion, that she's been so evil for so long, that she is now unable to speak the truth. When you live a lie long enough, it "becomes" true (in your mind) and everything else is false.

I've known people like that... indeed, that's very well put.

[skyrider]

This isn't a real question is it?

Hello, Rosalie Fox Rivenbark...............and why did you sit back and DO NOTHING?????

You don't expect her to speak truthfully for once do you??? Come, come....skyrider! (tongue in cheek, of course)

It's my opinion, that she's been so evil for so long, that she is now unable to speak the truth. When you live a lie long enough, it "becomes" true (in your mind) and everything else is false.

Krysilis........no, obviously that's NOT going to happen........but it DOES singularly point to the fact that, as president of twi, any sense of spiritual integrity is not forthcoming.

Perhaps, this thread will help one more person exit twi.

[Mark Clarke]

It's my opinion, that she's been so evil for so long, that she is now unable to speak the truth. When you live a lie long enough, it "becomes" true (in your mind) and everything else is false.

Krysilis........no, obviously that's NOT going to happen........but it DOES singularly point to the fact that, as president of twi, any sense of spiritual integrity is not forthcoming.

You never know... Paul killed people before he got turned around.

Not that I'm expecting it, mind you, but it wouldn't hurt to pray for all those people. We're even supposed to pray for our enemies.

[skyrider]

You never know... Paul killed people before he got turned around.

Not that I'm expecting it, mind you, but it wouldn't hurt to pray for all those people. We're even supposed to pray for our enemies.

Mark......I understand what you're saying, but the track record of "top twi leaders" turning from this twisted doctrine, this self-serving entitlement, this I-am-righteous-now-and-forever-will-be hypnotic mantra, and receive with humility God's sovereign authority OVER AND ABOVE the wierwille-laced doctrines of deception..........any turn around is slim to none.

IMO.....Cgeer took on the wierwille-visage and persona and "calling" after the death of vpw in 1985. In action and content, cgeer has been writing post-humously for wierwille and mandating the wierwille dogna. So, I think that it's fair to say that any *turning to the Lord* is just not going to happen.

And further..........even major players of twi-offshoots "call upon the name of wierwille" when the chips are down....i.e. John Lynn's June 2008 letter.

Martindale doesn't make the list of "turning to the Lord" either...........

Should I continue.......??????

[Linda Z]

Krys, I can't even imagine how much it hurt to see that happen to your son and daughter-in-law. And of course, it happened to your whole family.

As a mom, nothing hurts me more than seeing my child in pain and/or treated badly. Thank God your son's life is happy and successful now, despite what he's been through.

I know it has to be painful to talk about this, even 10 years later. Thank you.

[WordWolf]

Krysilis........no, obviously that's NOT going to happen........but it DOES singularly point to the fact that, as president of twi, any sense of spiritual integrity is not forthcoming.

You never know... Paul killed people before he got turned around.

Not that I'm expecting it, mind you, but it wouldn't hurt to pray for all those people. We're even supposed to pray for our enemies.

Mark......I understand what you're saying, but the track record of "top twi leaders" turning from this twisted doctrine, this self-serving entitlement, this I-am-righteous-now-and-forever-will-be hypnotic mantra, and receive with humility God's sovereign authority OVER AND ABOVE the wierwille-laced doctrines of deception..........any turn around is slim to none.

IMO.....Cgeer took on the wierwille-visage and persona and "calling" after the death of vpw in 1985. In action and content, cgeer has been writing post-humously for wierwille and mandating the wierwille dogna. So, I think that it's fair to say that any *turning to the Lord* is just not going to happen.

And further..........even major players of twi-offshoots "call upon the name of wierwille" when the chips are down....i.e. John Lynn's June 2008 letter.

Martindale doesn't make the list of "turning to the Lord" either...........

Should I continue.......??????

We're STILL supposed to pray even for our ENEMIES, so if they qualify all the way into "enemy" territory,

we're STILL supposed to pray for them.

[skyrider]

We're STILL supposed to pray even for our ENEMIES, so if they qualify all the way into "enemy" territory,

we're STILL supposed to pray for them.

Enemies??........no, I certainly don't think of them THAT way. Maybe deceived and delusional.......but not enemies.

And, wondering................do they PRAY for us "greasespotters?"

[Linda Z]

Enemies??........no, I certainly don't think of them THAT way. Maybe deceived and delusional.......but not enemies.

And, wondering................do they PRAY for us "greasespotters?"

What difference does that make? Do we want to be like them?

[skyrider]

What difference does that make? Do we want to be like them?

Like them???.............

Gee, I think that its fair to say that MOST of us have taken the high road.........far away from this cesspool of spiritual filth and degradation.

[Linda Z]

It was a rhetorical question, but I'll rephrase it anyway. What do we care whether they pray for us? They certainly aren't our models for behavior or spirituality, as I'm sure you'd agree.

[krys]

At some point, we must let it all go. Otherwise the weight of it will drag us down and keep us from doing anything that remotely seems like living some kind of fulfilling life. I didn't want to do this initially. I figured that as long as I kept it all in the front of my memory, I could shoot "bad vibes" at them.

What was I thinking? I dunno. I think I was just reacting to the hurt in my heart. Even after I let it go, there were still times where it was on my mind at least once a day for a long time. I think it was years until I realized I'd gone several days without thinking about it.

Please don't let stuff like this swirl around in your brain.

[skyrider]

It was a rhetorical question, but I'll rephrase it anyway. What do we care whether they pray for us? They certainly aren't our models for behavior or spirituality, as I'm sure you'd agree.

In response to Mark's post about "praying for our enemies"..........I was simply turning the tables of that scripture back at them. Caring whether they pray for us or not is of very little interest to me.........but showing their hypocritical nature IS valuable to expose them for all to see.

When the scribes and Pharisees tried to corner Jesus' words....in Matthew 15.....he gave several vivid illustrations of their hypocrisy.

[krys]

I don't really know how to tell you all about the rest. Some things are crystal clear, and others I've almost forgotten. Where to begin……I guess chronologically is the easiest for a me - - and if you have a difficult time following me, fire those questions away and I'll do my best to answer them.

I was sprawled all over my desk/computer preparing a website for a class of teachers who were taking a summer seminar at Stevens Institute in Hoboken NJ. I had a bit less than a week to finish it all up together with the rest of the materials. I think it was a Saturday nite, but I know that the phone rang about 10 or 11 at nite and I remember thinking who would have the nerve to call this late at nite? When I picked it up, at first I wasn't quite sure who was on the other end. It was my son, but he was so terrified his voice was quaking. He told me they had been kicked out..but not much more than that (at that time) and could I please pick them up at the airport the following morning - - early flight, sometime before 10 am.

He gave me the phone # of the motel he was in asking me to phone him back.. He told me he was afraid for their lives and by the sound of his voice I was convinced he was right. He wanted to be sure that they weren't cut off and a phone call would get through. I called and he answered. I guess there are something mr linder and others of his ilk cannot do!

I continued working, at least I could block out what was needed and fill in the contours of what was needed for the seminar a bit later. But I knew I'd never sleep that night – there was too much whirling around in my head – and my heart. There were many phone calls back and forth until around 2 am. My kids were afraid literally for their lives.

I guess when you're confronted by so many guns held by so many very angry men, it does something to you. My kids kept looking over their shoulders for weeks, making sure they were safe.

I don't know how I made it through the next 2 weeks. There were many all-nighters, either with my kids, or working on the seminar (which got rave reviews, by the way).

The rest of that day, my son spent on the phone calling each and every one of their sponsors and anyone else they knew to tell them what happened and explain it to them in such a way that they would decide to end their association with the twi organization . They were quite successful. A number of their contacts did leave that day – others thought about it a while. Some of those left soon after.

There were also phone calls to and from hdqtrs negotiating with the powers that be to get the rest of their stuff back (whatever was at Gunnison). They also had a hard time getting their money back out of their credit union account. The organization wanted to keep a certain portion claiming they were charging for their motel, phone calls, food and airline tickets home. My DIL's father got his company lawyers to work on that one and they got most of their money back.

The next 2 weeks were relatively calm. Twi had to finish up that advanced class and it took a number of days to drive the truck with their belongings from Gunnison to our home town….and even right in front of our house. The kids had been instructed to secure a rental unit and when mr linder himself as the driver of the truck arrived on our street, the kids had to lead them to their storage compartment and their stuff was tossed off the truck onto the ground and the kids had to put it in the storage area. It was night time when the truck arrived, so there wasn't too much to see until the following morning when it was light again.

The head of safety didn't bother to wait until things were safely put away, but as soon as their things were off-loaded he took off. And yes, there was a pistol on the front seat of the truck.

Now that I think of it, poor mister linder must have been afraid of my kids - - otherwise why would he tote a revolver for his defense!? [tongue in cheek, of course]

I'll finish up the last bit in a short time.

Edited July 19, 2008 by krysilis

[Mark Clarke]

Mark......I understand what you're saying, but the track record of "top twi leaders" turning from this twisted doctrine, this self-serving entitlement, this I-am-righteous-now-and-forever-will-be hypnotic mantra, and receive with humility God's sovereign authority OVER AND ABOVE the wierwille-laced doctrines of deception..........any turn around is slim to none.

IMO.....Cgeer took on the wierwille-visage and persona and "calling" after the death of vpw in 1985. In action and content, cgeer has been writing post-humously for wierwille and mandating the wierwille dogna. So, I think that it's fair to say that any *turning to the Lord* is just not going to happen.

And further..........even major players of twi-offshoots "call upon the name of wierwille" when the chips are down....i.e. John Lynn's June 2008 letter.

Martindale doesn't make the list of "turning to the Lord" either...........

Should I continue.......??????

From what I've heard (which admittedly isn't much), CFF is also pretty big on continuing the Wierwille legacy.

I agree the chances are virtually nil that any of them will turn around. There's really nothing else to do BUT pray for them! As Krysilis said, at some point, we must let it all go.

[Mark Clarke]

One question: can you tell us what action, if any, you know of that Rev. WC might have taken after this incident? Did he leave HQ then?

Yes, he did. At the end of that class, he left.

Just a point of clarification...

When you say Rev. WC, are you talking about W@lt3r C#mm!ns? I thought he left back in the early 90's.

[krys]

W#$ne C*&pp

[Mark Clarke]

W#$ne C*&pp

Oh, OK. That makes more sense.

[doojable]

Krys - Thank you so much for sharing this. It certainly can't be easy to relate something so horrible. To think that folks were afraid for their lives!

This just smacks of prisoner of war thinking to me. Your kids were in a hotel room but afraid that Lind#r &Co. could cut them off from everything. For what?

Leaving a "Christian training program?

One day your DIL was mistress to the President and MOG- the next she was put out like garbage.

For what?

Leaving a "Christian" training program? !!!!

It sounds more like Hotel California to me...

Edited July 20, 2008 by doojable

[krys]

Well, doojable the head of safety might cut them off from any and everything if he thought they were going to tattle on good king okie don'tcha know. He wasn't watching them because they left - - it wasn't their own free will, they were kicked out.

Plus, the rage that my son showed in loy's office was enough to perhaps want to make sure that there was no way he could get back there to do anything else. And my DIL wasn't put out for leaving a christian training program....she was put out because her husband wouldn't have any part in the routine there.

Hotel California, it was, though.

[doojable]

Krys - I was using a bit of my NY sarcasm.

Loytoyboy saw he was about to lose control of a filly in his stable. I'm sure he had to call up the reinforcements.

I can almost "hear" him making an entry in his journal,

"Dear VP and me,

Today I had to do the same thing I saw my father in the verd do time after time..."

As for your son- the way I see it, he was refusing to play the game, and refusing to be just another victim.

*****************************

BTW - I just wanted to comment on how nice it has been to get to hear your story without any interruptions from anyone who would try to detract from it

I wish a lot of threads were this *quiet.*

Edited July 20, 2008 by doojable

[Dot Matrix]

Ya know Krys your story does make me wonder about all the men out there that were used to marry the VP and LCM cast offs - and did not know it. (Cast offs were victims as well)

I knew, it was happening as, 3 (that is right) guys had women sent to them, who were cast off's, guys I was "seeing," because I said no to the Vicster (umm Viper) and they said yes to either Vic or one on the totem pole. It was such a sick system we followed. I cannot imagine how those men felt when they found out these women were SENT to them because these women were compliant - and I wasn't. After all, if I would not "do it for them" apparently, I could not do it for God. I actually had a corps coordinator apologize for sending women to two guys I had seen so I KNOW it happened.

Now, that I think of it, there may have been another guy I was seeing who had a compliant woman sent to him... Geez. Maybe four.

(Now, not every guy I was seeing dated or married a cast off - just to clarify)

Edited July 20, 2008 by Dot Matrix

[RumRunner]

While I completely agree - I also would have more sympathy for (of the men) for those who had there wives abused as opposed to getting a castoff. A lot of the castoff "takers" took the women like a piece of meat off of the kings table. What about the man who wakes up to find out his wife is now doing the MOG? The abuse of both men and women (and indeed mostly women) was a wholesale slaughter of emotion and humanity...all for one more pass around of the horn of plenty - and one more ride on the "coach."

The "castoff takers" were being trained to abuse women and other couples...and in some cases had no idea how or what they where being trained for.

Ya know Krys your story does make me wonder about all the men out there that were used to marry the VP and LCM cast offs - and did not know it. (Cast offs were victims as well)

I knew it was happening as 3 (that is right) guys had women sent to them, who were cast off's, guys I was "seeing," because I said no to the Vicster (umm Viper) and they said yes to either Vic or one on the totem pole. It was such a sick system we followed. I cannot imagine how those men felt when they found out these women were SENT to them because these women were compliant - and I wasn't. After all, if I would not "do it for them" apparently, I could not do it for God. I actually had a corps coordinator apologize for sending women to two guys I had seen so I KNOW it happened.

Now, that I think of it, there may have been another guy I was seeing who had a compliant woman sent to him... Geez. Maybe four.

Edited July 20, 2008 by RumRunner

[doojable]

The sick thing is...

Krys - had your son accepted LoytoyBoy's offer, he most likely would have been ordained...

THAT idea alone should make anyone's skin crawl...

[doojable]

Even after all this - - loy begged them to stay.....he offered to change their interim assignment from Way Disciple to remaining at HQ to coordinate the Way Disciple program. My DIL begged my son to agree so they could stay (and she could remain Most Favored Female) but this required that my son give up his exclusive claim on his own wife and "join in" claiming for himself any one of the upper echelon women for himself. Obviously my son said "No" and then there was nothing to be done.

So it was about bisecting a marriage.

He could have as many women as he wanted- but not his wife...

She could *belong* to many men - but not her husband...

And all the while they would look like the perfect power couple.

[George Aar]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SV...8GL._SS500_.jpg

I dunno, seemed appropriate...

Edited July 20, 2008 by George Aar