Abi, I love learning about Judaism through your sharings. :) It has been stereotype-breaking, enlightening and stimulating. Many thanks for taking the time to share these things with us.
"What is hateful unto you, do not do to your neighbor: This is the whole Torah! The rest is commentary. Now, go and study." You may find there is a familiar ring to that, no?
Despite what many think about Judaism, the laws and rituals, there are many many verses in the OT that emphasize the notion that God would rather have us live ethical lives than perform rituals. This line of thought is also emphasized within the Midrash, which teaches that the commandments of the Torah were give to mankind to refine people and also that "the purpose of life is to strive to break bad habits and improve oneself. Otherwise, what is life for?"
Very familiar, indeed! What I do believe Jesus taught, as well as other great leaders in varying religions and cultures. I think it's the one main idea that so many forget and ignore in their personal agendas.
I guess I don't understand, though, why there are so many cumbersome, inconvenient, expensive and stringent rules, rituals and whatnot associated with Judaism (and every other religion) when it apparently isn't necessary based on the "love your neighbor as yourself" foundation.
In many ways it encourages elitism, judgmentalism and self-esteem issues, no?
Abi, I love learning about Judaism through your sharings. :) It has been stereotype-breaking, enlightening and stimulating. Many thanks for taking the time to share these things with us.
Very familiar, indeed! What I do believe Jesus taught, as well as other great leaders in varying religions and cultures. I think it's the one main idea that so many forget and ignore in their personal agendas.
I guess I don't understand, though, why there are so many cumbersome, inconvenient, expensive and stringent rules, rituals and whatnot associated with Judaism (and every other religion) when it apparently isn't necessary based on the "love your neighbor as yourself" foundation.
In many ways it encourages elitism, judgmentalism and self-esteem issues, no?
It is good to see you Belle!!! I am not just breaking the stereotpes for all of you, but for me as well. My parents did not practice Judaism and for the most part were not raised to practice it in any orthodox sense. Their parents were, and the only thing that was really passed down to me it terms of what Judaism was about - was that it was very strict and difficult to practice.
For the past few years, I have been learning otherwise. Yes, if one is to be orthodox, there it can be very difficult in this society we live in, but one does not HAVE to be orthodox. :)
With respect to the rituals - that is one of the things I am hoping the book may answer, at least with regard to Judaism. I do know some/many of the rituals are symbolic - they are to remind us of something. Others, such as the laws regarding kosher foods, are often related to taking care of the animals and planet we live on. For instance, kosher meats are to be slaughtered in a very specific way, so as to cause the least amount of pain and suffering to the animal.
Judaism teaches that human nature consists of a good inclination (yetzer hatov) and a bad inclination (yetzer ara). Paul speaks of the same in his writings - (Paraphrased) Oh wretched man that I am, that which I would do, I do not, that which I would not do, that I do.
In TWI (and in many of the more fundamental/conservative religious groups) we are taught that we must overcome this evil inclination. In TWI we were to renew our minds, in some branches of Christianity it is taught that "the devil makes us do it" in other branches of Christianity it is tauht that Christ or the holy spirit will change you and remove that evil inclination.
My own personal experience with the above viewpoints were that they just don't work. You can "renew your mind" which more or less amounts to faking it or grinning and bearing it. You can condemn yourself as possessed. You can believe you must not be truly "saved" or one of God's children because this evil inclination still dwells within you. (I am generalizing, please understand that. I am also speaking of my own personal experience and not someone elses. Some of these teachings seem to work for other people. I am sure there are also more variations and explanations that just the ones I named above.)
In "You Shall Be Holy" a different perspective is offered.
The Rabbis teach that the goal should not be to completely destroy the evil incliniaction, because it is this evil inclination that drives our instinct for survival. OUr instinct to earn money to buy food, clothing and shelter with or to have sex and thus reproduce, etc.
Instead, suggests the Rabbi's we need to be aware of our own individual evil inclinations and learn how to use them to do good. The expample Rabbi Telushkin uses is of a person who has a strong need to be admired. He suggests, if you have an overly strong need to be admired, then you could do good deeds that you would later gain recognition for. In this way, you are using the need for admiration to help someone else.
I like discussing heady doctrinal topics sometimes– but this kind of stuff is the really deep things of God, IMHO. Yeah – the practical side of doctrine – that's where it's at…where our faith meets the road. Also, noticed the Rabbi has a volume 2 & 3 planned – and will continue to address moral themes that touch interpersonal issues - family, friends & community…sounds like some very useful stuff! I look forward to your sharing from his book.
I was reading Deuteronomy 10 about the tablets being rewritten - in The Jewish Study Bible – and found a comment that I thought goes with this thread:
Deuteronomy 10:17, 18 TANAKH Translation
For the Lord your God is God supreme and Lord supreme, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who shows no favor and takes no bribe, but upholds the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and befriends the stranger, providing him with food and clothing.
The Jewish Study Bible said here is where integrity in the administration of court justice and protection of the marginalized are given a theological foundation, making the remarkable argument that our social ethics amounts to imitating God.
Hi T-bone, good to see you. I think I could tanget in several directions from your post, but I'm going to try to stay on topic. I don't believe the "god of the OT" is nearly as harsh as we sometimes believe Him to be from our King James translations and there is much understanding to be found in the Midrash.
I do like the practicle. The arguments about the trinity, life after death, etc. can be very fascinating. I love Sunesis' posts on angels and the spirit realm most especially. But in the long run, those topics don't often have much impact on how I live my day to day life, how I make decisions, etc.
I want to give the boys a good moral/ethical foundation. They aren't particularly interested in church or temple and I am not convinced that forcing them is going to be much benefit in the long run. I'd rather learn myself so I am prepared to teach them when the teachable moments are there.
My wife and I often discuss the best ways to instill moral and ethical behaviour into our kids. Number one of course is acting in the exact ways we want them to, as kids tend to imitate their parents and family. We have also talked about going to religious services of different faiths to help spur thought and discussion on the views of right and wrong from differing perspectives. We still may do that but they are a bit young at this point.
One of the benefits of having married into the family that I have is that they are not afraid to discuss issues of faith or politics or social issues at breakfast, lunch, or dinner. My brother visited recently while we were at my in-law's and he says his favorite quote from the visit is my wife exclaiming, "can we not talk about genocide at the breakfast table!" My mother-in-law replied with a smirk, "Yes, lets wait till lunch."
I think this family tradition lives on to a degree in our house and will more so as the kids grow up and form more opinions of their own. I think simply having the conversations about important issues of life as a family is as beneficial as anyone preaching to you, if not more. Problems come about when you don't talk about it and when you don't help your kids develop a voice and an opinion on moral and ethical issues. As long as we too show by example the benefits of living a good and healthy life I believe our kids will grow up with a respect for the idea of bettering themselves not just for their own good but for the good of others.
As we discipline and teach our kids I find more often than not that golden rule (which at my core I feel is the most reasonable way to live) is what you hear repeated in our encouragement and direction.
Thanks, Lindy, it is interesting - though some of it seems a little "elementary" to me, which is why I haven't added more to the thread yet. I will though, I am sure once I get past the rather long, introductory stuff it will become more interesting.
I agree regarding setting the example by our own actions, to be sure. But, your kids are very young still, yes? Mine are young as well, but not "little" anymore. They are 9 and 11.
As they begin to grow more independant and move out into the world a bit more, peer pressure will become an issue. I think at some point it is good for them to have an authority that is even higher than mom and dad, and I prefer that authority to be God. :) In the end, when they are adults I could care less if they chose to be Jewish, Christian, Muslem, agnostic, whatever as long as they have a good moral foundation. But I think, especially for the teens and early 20s a higher power may be necessary.
Also, there are some very murky waters for them to tread in this world. Religions, and even what moral values are taught in school often tend to be very black and white, with few shades of grey. This book, it appears, is going to cover at least some of those gray areas.
I want to teach them shades of gray. I want to give them examples of instances where things were gray and critical thinking combined with an honest look inside at ones own motives led to a good decision or cases where a lack of critical thinking or a dishonest look at ones own motives led to a bad decision. Those examples are all contained in the Bible. But I am still so stuck (at times) in the black and white thinking of TWI that I often miss them.
My 11 year old son is extremely bright - - smart enough to come up with his own math theory regarding infinity and multiplication when he was only in 2nd or 3rd grade. I don't think his theory was correct, but it was pretty cool that he was interested enough to think it through. Anyway, so my young mathematically and scientifically minded young son says to me one day a few years back, "there is no such thing as god, we evolved." And he proceeds to teach me about the big bang and evolution.
I told him that I believed in God, that I have believed in God since I was pretty young and that all I had to do was look around me at the beauty of the world and that was enough to convince me. "But," I told him, "You have your own mind and you are a smart kid, you are capable of making up your own mind about such matters."
So for a couple of years he maintained his athiesm and I never argued or debated with him about it. I just continued to respect his right to form his own opinions.
Six or eight months ago he comes to me and says, "Mom, I think you are right." (which I so rarely ever hear that I nearly fell off my seat!!! LOL). He went on, "there must be a God because even if evolution is correct, it still had to start somewhere. Something had to create the matter that eventually created this world."
Of course he then wanted to know, "If God created the world, then who created God?"
Yes, if one is to be orthodox, there it can be very difficult in this society we live in, but one does not HAVE to be orthodox. :)
There appears to be a great deal of freedom in finding what level, depth, extreme.... whatnot, one wants to live within Judaism. It's actually easier to find it just about everywhere these days, which is great.
It seems to me that, from my limited perceptions, the orthodox aspects is a holding on to those practices that were in place because of sanitary, health and logical reasons of the times - things not necessary in today's culture.
With respect to the rituals - that is one of the things I am hoping the book may answer, at least with regard to Judaism. I do know some/many of the rituals are symbolic - they are to remind us of something. Others, such as the laws regarding kosher foods, are often related to taking care of the animals and planet we live on. For instance, kosher meats are to be slaughtered in a very specific way, so as to cause the least amount of pain and suffering to the animal.
Some of those rituals were in place to ensure freedom from illness, disease and survival, no?
I didn't realize the aspect of pain and suffering, though... interesting.
Some rituals also, are good reminders, a form of meditation and what some new age beliefs call "grounding" - Yoga could be considered a healthy ritual, imo.
There appears to be a great deal of freedom in finding what level, depth, extreme.... whatnot, one wants to live within Judaism. It's actually easier to find it just about everywhere these days, which is great.
Sure, there are many levels of observance. Here we have only a very small community of Jewish people, but you will still find ultra orthodox to ultra religious services to attend and communties to get involved with. And, they all seem to work together and welcome each other as well. I spent a Shabbat evening with an ultra orthodox Chassidic family one evening. It was very interesting and fun, but I am not disciplined enough to live like that day to day. :)
It seems to me that, from my limited perceptions, the orthodox aspects is a holding on to those practices that were in place because of sanitary, health and logical reasons of the times - things not necessary in today's culture.
Some of those rituals were in place to ensure freedom from illness, disease and survival, no?
I didn't realize the aspect of pain and suffering, though... interesting.
Some rituals also, are good reminders, a form of meditation and what some new age beliefs call "grounding" - Yoga could be considered a healthy ritual, imo.
I think there are a number of reasons for the rituals. I know with regard to the sabbath candles and Channukah candles it is a reminder that we are part of a community. That all over the world people are also lighting the candles.
I think some are for health reasons as well, though other Jewish people would disagree with that and say it is about respect and obedience to God. :D
Some are symbolic and/or for worship purposes.
I think a case could be made that many are about ethics - to remind us of God, to Worship God and to live an ethical life by taking care of the people, the animals and the planet. Even God tells us, if we have a choice between performing a worship ritual or helping another person, we are to help the other person - even if it means violating one of the laws.
This is seen in David's eating of the bread in the temple. It is also seen in the guidelines regarding not working on the sabbath and the exception to that law if you are assisting someone in dire need, and the guidelines regarding fasting and the exception for children, pregnant women, and those in poor health.
A reason behind ritual is that it helps us shed the mundane aspects of daily life and immerse ourselves in the sacred for a brief time before everyday needs take up all our time and attention...small rituals though out the day help us live more consciously, remind us of what is important.
Interesting topic! Especially about the other leaders of the Sanhedrin quitting.
Yes, the Lord Jesus would have been familiar with some of Hillel's teachings because he was an extreme conservative. It was R. Shammai that was the extreme liberal.
Bramble, you are correct in that regard as well. I would like to be more discplined to the rituals, but I think some of them simply don't have enough meaning to me at this point in my life (at least the daily ones), though I do like the lighting of the candles.
Bride, someday I would love to get my hands on the texts containing the debates between the two of them. Unfortunately, at the moment I am left with picking up bits and pieces of the debates via studing other works.
We used to have our kids in a Waldorf kindergarden. They had rituals for all kinds of things through out the day. I have never seen a better run daycare than that one. The rituals were usually also transitions during the day and the kids loved them. Like Bramble said it gave them pause from the craziness of playing and whatever else they were doing to focus and appreciate the next part of the day. We still do some of them at home. They would light a candle at every meal and sing a song... "give me a light to light my way, truth is the light, the man say." The candle captivated them and was mesmerizing. They sat there at the table respectfully until the candle was blown out and they said, "candle candle burning bright, thank you for your golden light." Then off to play or read or whatever. I've got to say having my kids there was a great thing for me, as well. Going in I was still rather unsure about the whole thing, but now we really miss that place. It changed my view on rituals that is for sure as well as other things like different teaching styles, toys, etc.
Great discussion. Not having any kids of my own, I love seeing how y'all are encouraging your kids to think, ask their questions and ponder openly. I think that's a superb foundation for a healthy child. Lindy, had to laugh at your genocide example.
"The significance and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it!' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan."
Anyway, Hawking wrote what's supposed to be a children's book called "God Created the Integers: The Mathematical Breakthroughs That Changed History" - maybe they have it at your library? I don't know anything about the book, but love Hawking's work.... well, the very tiny bit of it that I am able to understand. I do think it's possible (perhaps even essential?) to weave God and science together - one is not exclusive of the other.
Since leaving TWI, I have adopted quite the eclectic view of life and have learned a bit about many different beliefs - Christian, Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, etc... I do find that the common denominator in all of them is a loving kindness toward our fellow man. The rest is peripheral, but it's those peripheral things that instill and impress that golden rule/ethical living into our core being.
Love that you're looking to keep the shades of gray in the big picture - I think that black & white thinking can be very dangerous and limiting as we've evidenced in our own lives thanks to TWI.
I'm up to chapter 5, which s "The Ignored Commandment". The ignored commandment is to use justice in judging our fellowman. While the Biblical reference is in the context of the Judges, it is generally understood within Judaism, that this applies to everyone.
In his section on "judging with empathy" he quotes a prayer that I think is beautiful:
"Help us to remember that the 'jerk' who cut us off in traffic last night may be a single mother who worked nine hours that day and who is now rushing home to cook dinner, help with homework, do the laundry, and spend a few precious minutes with her children.
Help us to remember hat the pierced, tattooed, disinterested young man who couldn't make change correctly at the register today is a worried nineteen-year-old student who is preoccupied with whether hep assed his final exams and with his fear of not getting a student loan for next semester.
Remind us, Lord, that the scary-looking 'bum' begging for moneyin the same spot every day is a slave to addictions that we can only imagine in our worse nightmares.
Help us to realize that the old couple walking so slowly through the store aisles, blocking our shopping cart, is saving this moment because they know that, based upon the biopsy report she got back yesterday, this may be the last year they will go shopping together."
In his section on "judging with empathy" he quotes a prayer that I think is beautiful:
"Help us to remember that the 'jerk' who cut us off in traffic last night may be a single mother who worked nine hours that day and who is now rushing home to cook dinner, help with homework, do the laundry, and spend a few precious minutes with her children.
Help us to remember hat the pierced, tattooed, disinterested young man who couldn't make change correctly at the register today is a worried nineteen-year-old student who is preoccupied with whether hep assed his final exams and with his fear of not getting a student loan for next semester.
Remind us, Lord, that the scary-looking 'bum' begging for moneyin the same spot every day is a slave to addictions that we can only imagine in our worse nightmares.
Help us to realize that the old couple walking so slowly through the store aisles, blocking our shopping cart, is saving this moment because they know that, based upon the biopsy report she got back yesterday, this may be the last year they will go shopping together."
Is that the best he's got, Abigail? I'd be interested in reading his book but if that's as far as he goes, well, I can get that from any basic pop psychology book. Tell me he goes deeper!
I'm not sure what you are looking for JJ. Does he go deeper how?
I haven't read much past that poem yet. I'm taking it in small bites through the week, because I don't have the same amount of time to read like I do when I spend the weekend lounging on the beach.
There are Old Testatment Bible verses to support what he says. There are Rabbinical arguments that I find interesting, but am not always so sure others here will be interested in . . .
Yeah, he goes deeper, depending on how you define it.
Could you give me something more specific? If I know what you are looking for, AND if it is in his book, I'll share it with you.
Hmmm. I'm not quite sure I can explain myself. I guess I'm still trying to make the concept of God work in my head. I want something I can dig into and not just cute bromides to help me temporarily feel better.
In the end, maybe the 'jerk' who cut me off last night really was just a jerk. How do I remain holy in the face of God without resorting to little mind tricks such as that prayer implies? I was hoping for something more substantial.
Hmmm. I'm not quite sure I can explain myself. I guess I'm still trying to make the concept of God work in my head. I want something I can dig into and not just cute bromides to help me temporarily feel better.
In the end, maybe the 'jerk' who cut me off last night really was just a jerk. How do I remain holy in the face of God without resorting to little mind tricks such as that prayer implies? I was hoping for something more substantial.
Did that help clarify anything at all?
-JJ
I guess I am not sure I can help you, JJ. If I understand you correctly you are looking for things to help you believe t here is a God? things to make God more real to you or things to help you have a relationship with God?
Perhaps I am still not understanding what you are saying.
Are you asking how do we remain holy in God's eyes, given our human imperfections and the fact that we will never live our lives perfectly?
If you are looking for answers to the first set of questions, I am not sure I can help you or that this book will help you. I am not one who is good at, or even tries to convince someone else there is a God. I wouldn't even know how to go about doing that.
If you are looking for answers in regard to the last question - remaining holy in God's eyes, in spite of our inperfections - I think we do that by continuing to learn and grow. God knows our frame, that we are but dust. The entire point of this life is to learn and grow, to become better, (note - NOT PERFECT), to learn whatever it is we are here to learn. I don't think that is really such a difficult task.
The Rabbi does handle this in the book and I can go back and share some of what he says, if you are interested.
Bride, someday I would love to get my hands on the texts containing the debates between the two of them. Unfortunately, at the moment I am left with picking up bits and pieces of the debates via studing other works.
I have a smattering and sometimes its just too darn funny. You can almost tell they were complete rivals and sometimes I think they deliberately took the opposing side just because they could. When I read the small amount that I have, really just snippets probably from the fuller debates such as (from memory) "R. Shammai say: Sweep the floor and then wash your hands. R. Hillel say: Wash your hands and then sweep the floor."
Hmmm. I'm not quite sure I can explain myself. I guess I'm still trying to make the concept of God work in my head. I want something I can dig into and not just cute bromides to help me temporarily feel better.
In the end, maybe the 'jerk' who cut me off last night really was just a jerk. How do I remain holy in the face of God without resorting to little mind tricks such as that prayer implies? I was hoping for something more substantial.
Did that help clarify anything at all?
-JJ
JJ, I'm going to back up and cover some of the things I left out, the move forward (if time permits) and hope something in all of this answers what you are looking for. :)
This first part probably has nothing to do with what you are looking for, but when I was going back through some of this it struck me as important. Rabbi Telushkin writes, "The acknowledgement that we have free will and bear resopnsibility for our actions is the essence of human dignity." Earlier he wrote of a Holocaust survivor, Viktor Frankel, who said "soemtimes the only free will we hav is how we choose to meet our death." Franekel spoke of those in the concentration camps who would give away their last piece of bread to help another person. It wasn't just an act of kindness, it was also one of the few freedoms they had left, to chose to die with some level of internal dignity.
In Judaism, improving ones character is the goal in this life. The Midrash states "The Torah's commandments were not given to mankind for any purpose other than to refine people." I agree with this concept. What else could our purpose here be? We certainly aren't going to take all our stuff with us when we die, so accumulating weath certainly isn't the point!!
Rabbi Telushkin later writes, "When trying to improve your character, don't despair and lose heart when you do something wrong . . . we must remember that even imperfect or incomplete improvement is far better than none at all." He also quotes Rabbi Israel Salanter who was responding to Rabbi Chayyim regarding a book he was publishing, "If all you accomplish is to evoke one sigh from one reader, then your book is worthwhile."
In my own experience, most of the greatest lessons I've learned in this life were the result of a poor decision/mistake I had made.
I guess this topic strikes me especially right now, given all of the controversy and tensions we have seen in the forums of late.
Anyway . . . the ability to make judgments is a unique one to humanity. To the best of our knowledge, the rest of the animal world cannot and does not judge moral character. Unfortunately, while we have the ability to judge between good and evil, we often misuse it. We make snap judgments without enough information, we forget to be empathetic, we set standards for others that we ourselves often fail to achieve.
We should look for the good in each other - see the whole person and not just the flaws that irritate us. There is a talmudic teaching that says "Don't judge your fellow until you have been in his place." I usually say, "until you have walked in his shoes."
Rabbi Telushkin then points out that Noah was considered to be a righteousman who was blameless in his generation. The Rabbis asked "why does the Torah add "in this generation?" The most favored answer to this question is that it emphasizes that Noah lived in a generation of moral depravity and only in such a generation could Noah have been seen as great. Had he lived in a more moral generation, he would not have been so special.
Another Rabbi, Rabbi Lakish argued that if Noah was capable of being righteous in such a depraved generation, the he would also have been righteous in a more moral generation. This is because if "someone like Noah could grow up without a good role model and emerge as righteous, how much greater would he have been iwith support and encouragment from other moral people."
Of course, as in all things there is a balance to this. I'd say many, perhaps most of us ex-wafers clearly understand that there are people out there who are pretty much morally deprived!! That is covered later in the book, I believe. :)
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Belle
Abi, I love learning about Judaism through your sharings. :) It has been stereotype-breaking, enlightening and stimulating. Many thanks for taking the time to share these things with us.
Very familiar, indeed! What I do believe Jesus taught, as well as other great leaders in varying religions and cultures. I think it's the one main idea that so many forget and ignore in their personal agendas.
I guess I don't understand, though, why there are so many cumbersome, inconvenient, expensive and stringent rules, rituals and whatnot associated with Judaism (and every other religion) when it apparently isn't necessary based on the "love your neighbor as yourself" foundation.
In many ways it encourages elitism, judgmentalism and self-esteem issues, no?
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Abigail
It is good to see you Belle!!! I am not just breaking the stereotpes for all of you, but for me as well. My parents did not practice Judaism and for the most part were not raised to practice it in any orthodox sense. Their parents were, and the only thing that was really passed down to me it terms of what Judaism was about - was that it was very strict and difficult to practice.
For the past few years, I have been learning otherwise. Yes, if one is to be orthodox, there it can be very difficult in this society we live in, but one does not HAVE to be orthodox. :)
With respect to the rituals - that is one of the things I am hoping the book may answer, at least with regard to Judaism. I do know some/many of the rituals are symbolic - they are to remind us of something. Others, such as the laws regarding kosher foods, are often related to taking care of the animals and planet we live on. For instance, kosher meats are to be slaughtered in a very specific way, so as to cause the least amount of pain and suffering to the animal.
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Abigail
Judaism teaches that human nature consists of a good inclination (yetzer hatov) and a bad inclination (yetzer ara). Paul speaks of the same in his writings - (Paraphrased) Oh wretched man that I am, that which I would do, I do not, that which I would not do, that I do.
In TWI (and in many of the more fundamental/conservative religious groups) we are taught that we must overcome this evil inclination. In TWI we were to renew our minds, in some branches of Christianity it is taught that "the devil makes us do it" in other branches of Christianity it is tauht that Christ or the holy spirit will change you and remove that evil inclination.
My own personal experience with the above viewpoints were that they just don't work. You can "renew your mind" which more or less amounts to faking it or grinning and bearing it. You can condemn yourself as possessed. You can believe you must not be truly "saved" or one of God's children because this evil inclination still dwells within you. (I am generalizing, please understand that. I am also speaking of my own personal experience and not someone elses. Some of these teachings seem to work for other people. I am sure there are also more variations and explanations that just the ones I named above.)
In "You Shall Be Holy" a different perspective is offered.
The Rabbis teach that the goal should not be to completely destroy the evil incliniaction, because it is this evil inclination that drives our instinct for survival. OUr instinct to earn money to buy food, clothing and shelter with or to have sex and thus reproduce, etc.
Instead, suggests the Rabbi's we need to be aware of our own individual evil inclinations and learn how to use them to do good. The expample Rabbi Telushkin uses is of a person who has a strong need to be admired. He suggests, if you have an overly strong need to be admired, then you could do good deeds that you would later gain recognition for. In this way, you are using the need for admiration to help someone else.
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T-Bone
Cool stuff, Abigail. I read the conversation with Rabbi Telushkin
http://www.acodeofjewishethics.com/conversation.html
I like discussing heady doctrinal topics sometimes– but this kind of stuff is the really deep things of God, IMHO. Yeah – the practical side of doctrine – that's where it's at…where our faith meets the road. Also, noticed the Rabbi has a volume 2 & 3 planned – and will continue to address moral themes that touch interpersonal issues - family, friends & community…sounds like some very useful stuff! I look forward to your sharing from his book.
I was reading Deuteronomy 10 about the tablets being rewritten - in The Jewish Study Bible – and found a comment that I thought goes with this thread:
Deuteronomy 10:17, 18 TANAKH Translation
For the Lord your God is God supreme and Lord supreme, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who shows no favor and takes no bribe, but upholds the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and befriends the stranger, providing him with food and clothing.
The Jewish Study Bible said here is where integrity in the administration of court justice and protection of the marginalized are given a theological foundation, making the remarkable argument that our social ethics amounts to imitating God.
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Abigail
Hi T-bone, good to see you. I think I could tanget in several directions from your post, but I'm going to try to stay on topic. I don't believe the "god of the OT" is nearly as harsh as we sometimes believe Him to be from our King James translations and there is much understanding to be found in the Midrash.
I do like the practicle. The arguments about the trinity, life after death, etc. can be very fascinating. I love Sunesis' posts on angels and the spirit realm most especially. But in the long run, those topics don't often have much impact on how I live my day to day life, how I make decisions, etc.
I want to give the boys a good moral/ethical foundation. They aren't particularly interested in church or temple and I am not convinced that forcing them is going to be much benefit in the long run. I'd rather learn myself so I am prepared to teach them when the teachable moments are there.
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lindyhopper
Good stuff, Abi.
My wife and I often discuss the best ways to instill moral and ethical behaviour into our kids. Number one of course is acting in the exact ways we want them to, as kids tend to imitate their parents and family. We have also talked about going to religious services of different faiths to help spur thought and discussion on the views of right and wrong from differing perspectives. We still may do that but they are a bit young at this point.
One of the benefits of having married into the family that I have is that they are not afraid to discuss issues of faith or politics or social issues at breakfast, lunch, or dinner. My brother visited recently while we were at my in-law's and he says his favorite quote from the visit is my wife exclaiming, "can we not talk about genocide at the breakfast table!" My mother-in-law replied with a smirk, "Yes, lets wait till lunch."
I think this family tradition lives on to a degree in our house and will more so as the kids grow up and form more opinions of their own. I think simply having the conversations about important issues of life as a family is as beneficial as anyone preaching to you, if not more. Problems come about when you don't talk about it and when you don't help your kids develop a voice and an opinion on moral and ethical issues. As long as we too show by example the benefits of living a good and healthy life I believe our kids will grow up with a respect for the idea of bettering themselves not just for their own good but for the good of others.
As we discipline and teach our kids I find more often than not that golden rule (which at my core I feel is the most reasonable way to live) is what you hear repeated in our encouragement and direction.
Sounds like an interesting read.
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Abigail
Thanks, Lindy, it is interesting - though some of it seems a little "elementary" to me, which is why I haven't added more to the thread yet. I will though, I am sure once I get past the rather long, introductory stuff it will become more interesting.
I agree regarding setting the example by our own actions, to be sure. But, your kids are very young still, yes? Mine are young as well, but not "little" anymore. They are 9 and 11.
As they begin to grow more independant and move out into the world a bit more, peer pressure will become an issue. I think at some point it is good for them to have an authority that is even higher than mom and dad, and I prefer that authority to be God. :) In the end, when they are adults I could care less if they chose to be Jewish, Christian, Muslem, agnostic, whatever as long as they have a good moral foundation. But I think, especially for the teens and early 20s a higher power may be necessary.
Also, there are some very murky waters for them to tread in this world. Religions, and even what moral values are taught in school often tend to be very black and white, with few shades of grey. This book, it appears, is going to cover at least some of those gray areas.
I want to teach them shades of gray. I want to give them examples of instances where things were gray and critical thinking combined with an honest look inside at ones own motives led to a good decision or cases where a lack of critical thinking or a dishonest look at ones own motives led to a bad decision. Those examples are all contained in the Bible. But I am still so stuck (at times) in the black and white thinking of TWI that I often miss them.
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Abigail
Here's a funny story for you Lindy . . . .
My 11 year old son is extremely bright - - smart enough to come up with his own math theory regarding infinity and multiplication when he was only in 2nd or 3rd grade. I don't think his theory was correct, but it was pretty cool that he was interested enough to think it through. Anyway, so my young mathematically and scientifically minded young son says to me one day a few years back, "there is no such thing as god, we evolved." And he proceeds to teach me about the big bang and evolution.
I told him that I believed in God, that I have believed in God since I was pretty young and that all I had to do was look around me at the beauty of the world and that was enough to convince me. "But," I told him, "You have your own mind and you are a smart kid, you are capable of making up your own mind about such matters."
So for a couple of years he maintained his athiesm and I never argued or debated with him about it. I just continued to respect his right to form his own opinions.
Six or eight months ago he comes to me and says, "Mom, I think you are right." (which I so rarely ever hear that I nearly fell off my seat!!! LOL). He went on, "there must be a God because even if evolution is correct, it still had to start somewhere. Something had to create the matter that eventually created this world."
Of course he then wanted to know, "If God created the world, then who created God?"
HA! That one has a sharp mind!
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Belle
There appears to be a great deal of freedom in finding what level, depth, extreme.... whatnot, one wants to live within Judaism. It's actually easier to find it just about everywhere these days, which is great.
It seems to me that, from my limited perceptions, the orthodox aspects is a holding on to those practices that were in place because of sanitary, health and logical reasons of the times - things not necessary in today's culture.
Some of those rituals were in place to ensure freedom from illness, disease and survival, no?
I didn't realize the aspect of pain and suffering, though... interesting.
Some rituals also, are good reminders, a form of meditation and what some new age beliefs call "grounding" - Yoga could be considered a healthy ritual, imo.
More later, back to work.......
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Abigail
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Bramble
A reason behind ritual is that it helps us shed the mundane aspects of daily life and immerse ourselves in the sacred for a brief time before everyday needs take up all our time and attention...small rituals though out the day help us live more consciously, remind us of what is important.
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brideofjc
Interesting topic! Especially about the other leaders of the Sanhedrin quitting.
Yes, the Lord Jesus would have been familiar with some of Hillel's teachings because he was an extreme conservative. It was R. Shammai that was the extreme liberal.
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Abigail
Bramble, you are correct in that regard as well. I would like to be more discplined to the rituals, but I think some of them simply don't have enough meaning to me at this point in my life (at least the daily ones), though I do like the lighting of the candles.
Bride, someday I would love to get my hands on the texts containing the debates between the two of them. Unfortunately, at the moment I am left with picking up bits and pieces of the debates via studing other works.
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lindyhopper
There definitely is something to the rituals.
We used to have our kids in a Waldorf kindergarden. They had rituals for all kinds of things through out the day. I have never seen a better run daycare than that one. The rituals were usually also transitions during the day and the kids loved them. Like Bramble said it gave them pause from the craziness of playing and whatever else they were doing to focus and appreciate the next part of the day. We still do some of them at home. They would light a candle at every meal and sing a song... "give me a light to light my way, truth is the light, the man say." The candle captivated them and was mesmerizing. They sat there at the table respectfully until the candle was blown out and they said, "candle candle burning bright, thank you for your golden light." Then off to play or read or whatever. I've got to say having my kids there was a great thing for me, as well. Going in I was still rather unsure about the whole thing, but now we really miss that place. It changed my view on rituals that is for sure as well as other things like different teaching styles, toys, etc.
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Belle
Great discussion. Not having any kids of my own, I love seeing how y'all are encouraging your kids to think, ask their questions and ponder openly. I think that's a superb foundation for a healthy child. Lindy, had to laugh at your genocide example.
Abi, I'm a huge fan of Stephen Hawking (here's a great article on God and Science) by Henry F. Schaefer III who once said:
Anyway, Hawking wrote what's supposed to be a children's book called "God Created the Integers: The Mathematical Breakthroughs That Changed History" - maybe they have it at your library? I don't know anything about the book, but love Hawking's work.... well, the very tiny bit of it that I am able to understand.
I do think it's possible (perhaps even essential?) to weave God and science together - one is not exclusive of the other.
Since leaving TWI, I have adopted quite the eclectic view of life and have learned a bit about many different beliefs - Christian, Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, etc... I do find that the common denominator in all of them is a loving kindness toward our fellow man. The rest is peripheral, but it's those peripheral things that instill and impress that golden rule/ethical living into our core being.
Love that you're looking to keep the shades of gray in the big picture - I think that black & white thinking can be very dangerous and limiting as we've evidenced in our own lives thanks to TWI.
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Abigail
I will look for the book, Belle, thanks!
Now back to the book
I'm up to chapter 5, which s "The Ignored Commandment". The ignored commandment is to use justice in judging our fellowman. While the Biblical reference is in the context of the Judges, it is generally understood within Judaism, that this applies to everyone.
In his section on "judging with empathy" he quotes a prayer that I think is beautiful:
"Help us to remember that the 'jerk' who cut us off in traffic last night may be a single mother who worked nine hours that day and who is now rushing home to cook dinner, help with homework, do the laundry, and spend a few precious minutes with her children.
Help us to remember hat the pierced, tattooed, disinterested young man who couldn't make change correctly at the register today is a worried nineteen-year-old student who is preoccupied with whether hep assed his final exams and with his fear of not getting a student loan for next semester.
Remind us, Lord, that the scary-looking 'bum' begging for moneyin the same spot every day is a slave to addictions that we can only imagine in our worse nightmares.
Help us to realize that the old couple walking so slowly through the store aisles, blocking our shopping cart, is saving this moment because they know that, based upon the biopsy report she got back yesterday, this may be the last year they will go shopping together."
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JumpinJive
Is that the best he's got, Abigail? I'd be interested in reading his book but if that's as far as he goes, well, I can get that from any basic pop psychology book. Tell me he goes deeper!
-JJ
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Abigail
I'm not sure what you are looking for JJ. Does he go deeper how?
I haven't read much past that poem yet. I'm taking it in small bites through the week, because I don't have the same amount of time to read like I do when I spend the weekend lounging on the beach.
There are Old Testatment Bible verses to support what he says. There are Rabbinical arguments that I find interesting, but am not always so sure others here will be interested in . . .
Yeah, he goes deeper, depending on how you define it.
Could you give me something more specific? If I know what you are looking for, AND if it is in his book, I'll share it with you.
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JumpinJive
Hmmm. I'm not quite sure I can explain myself. I guess I'm still trying to make the concept of God work in my head. I want something I can dig into and not just cute bromides to help me temporarily feel better.
In the end, maybe the 'jerk' who cut me off last night really was just a jerk. How do I remain holy in the face of God without resorting to little mind tricks such as that prayer implies? I was hoping for something more substantial.
Did that help clarify anything at all?
-JJ
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Abigail
I guess I am not sure I can help you, JJ. If I understand you correctly you are looking for things to help you believe t here is a God? things to make God more real to you or things to help you have a relationship with God?
Perhaps I am still not understanding what you are saying.
Are you asking how do we remain holy in God's eyes, given our human imperfections and the fact that we will never live our lives perfectly?
If you are looking for answers to the first set of questions, I am not sure I can help you or that this book will help you. I am not one who is good at, or even tries to convince someone else there is a God. I wouldn't even know how to go about doing that.
If you are looking for answers in regard to the last question - remaining holy in God's eyes, in spite of our inperfections - I think we do that by continuing to learn and grow. God knows our frame, that we are but dust. The entire point of this life is to learn and grow, to become better, (note - NOT PERFECT), to learn whatever it is we are here to learn. I don't think that is really such a difficult task.
The Rabbi does handle this in the book and I can go back and share some of what he says, if you are interested.
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brideofjc
I have a smattering and sometimes its just too darn funny. You can almost tell they were complete rivals and sometimes I think they deliberately took the opposing side just because they could. When I read the small amount that I have, really just snippets probably from the fuller debates such as (from memory) "R. Shammai say: Sweep the floor and then wash your hands. R. Hillel say: Wash your hands and then sweep the floor."
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Abigail
ROFLMAO Bride - that truly is funny. Talk about getting lost in the details!!!!!
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Abigail
JJ, I'm going to back up and cover some of the things I left out, the move forward (if time permits) and hope something in all of this answers what you are looking for. :)
This first part probably has nothing to do with what you are looking for, but when I was going back through some of this it struck me as important. Rabbi Telushkin writes, "The acknowledgement that we have free will and bear resopnsibility for our actions is the essence of human dignity." Earlier he wrote of a Holocaust survivor, Viktor Frankel, who said "soemtimes the only free will we hav is how we choose to meet our death." Franekel spoke of those in the concentration camps who would give away their last piece of bread to help another person. It wasn't just an act of kindness, it was also one of the few freedoms they had left, to chose to die with some level of internal dignity.
In Judaism, improving ones character is the goal in this life. The Midrash states "The Torah's commandments were not given to mankind for any purpose other than to refine people." I agree with this concept. What else could our purpose here be? We certainly aren't going to take all our stuff with us when we die, so accumulating weath certainly isn't the point!!
Rabbi Telushkin later writes, "When trying to improve your character, don't despair and lose heart when you do something wrong . . . we must remember that even imperfect or incomplete improvement is far better than none at all." He also quotes Rabbi Israel Salanter who was responding to Rabbi Chayyim regarding a book he was publishing, "If all you accomplish is to evoke one sigh from one reader, then your book is worthwhile."
In my own experience, most of the greatest lessons I've learned in this life were the result of a poor decision/mistake I had made.
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Abigail
Okay, back to judging others . . . .
I guess this topic strikes me especially right now, given all of the controversy and tensions we have seen in the forums of late.
Anyway . . . the ability to make judgments is a unique one to humanity. To the best of our knowledge, the rest of the animal world cannot and does not judge moral character. Unfortunately, while we have the ability to judge between good and evil, we often misuse it. We make snap judgments without enough information, we forget to be empathetic, we set standards for others that we ourselves often fail to achieve.
We should look for the good in each other - see the whole person and not just the flaws that irritate us. There is a talmudic teaching that says "Don't judge your fellow until you have been in his place." I usually say, "until you have walked in his shoes."
Rabbi Telushkin then points out that Noah was considered to be a righteousman who was blameless in his generation. The Rabbis asked "why does the Torah add "in this generation?" The most favored answer to this question is that it emphasizes that Noah lived in a generation of moral depravity and only in such a generation could Noah have been seen as great. Had he lived in a more moral generation, he would not have been so special.
Another Rabbi, Rabbi Lakish argued that if Noah was capable of being righteous in such a depraved generation, the he would also have been righteous in a more moral generation. This is because if "someone like Noah could grow up without a good role model and emerge as righteous, how much greater would he have been iwith support and encouragment from other moral people."
Of course, as in all things there is a balance to this. I'd say many, perhaps most of us ex-wafers clearly understand that there are people out there who are pretty much morally deprived!! That is covered later in the book, I believe. :)
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