Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

We are not going to get along


pawtucket
 Share

Recommended Posts

Oldiesman, you don`t believe what you do is abusive according to the current rules....you have all of these logical arguments to sanction what you do. The bottom line is that what you and dove do, HURTS people...ok?

You guys offend people with your callousness.

Justify it, explain it, qualify it...but that is the direct result of your actions. This is a course that you and Dove have taken...so be it...but one I find unfathomable from someone whom wants to proclaim themselves a Christian.

You guys offend people with your callousness.

The same could be said for you and others. I'm offended by yours as well. So do you all quit speaking as well? I've never asked for you or anyone not to speak whatever was on their mind, we can dispute it, we are all adults here are we so fragile that someone's view distresses us ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 162
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

White Dove said:

WD, you are obviously getting something out of being here.

What is it exactly?

Lately not a lot but I still maintain hope..

If you are getting punched in the nose all of the time, why do you enjoy coming back?

I don't believe I said I was all the time or any time for that matter .

What are you doing that contributes to your getting punched in the nose all of the time?

Probably asking for fair rights and treatment for a person that some think by their feelings and emotional responses don't deserve what our constitution says they do.

What do you hope to accomplish by frequenting a forum that is paid for by a caring individual who wants to make known the abuses of twi?

If you weren't there when a rape took place, then you have no say PERIOD.

I can point out that their are facts required for proof of guilt, that's our law. I have never offered opinion as to if the story was true or false, in fact too many times to mention I have gone out of the way to point out that fact. What anyone me included believes is not the point ,facts are when claiming guilt.

Only the people who were there have a say about what took place.

So all those who read accounts here and jump on the bandwagon declaring guilt because they agree with what was posted have no say. Cause I see very few first hand accounts the most rabid attacks come from people that were not there but have liked what they hear. It appears they think they have something to say

If a rape didn't take place, but there was sex with a married clergyman, if you weren't there, you have no say PERIOD.

Of course I do I can point out that it was consensual

Again, what are you getting out of your participation on this board?

I thought it significant that you metaphorically compare yourself to a bull.

Why do you compare yourself to a bull charging?

It's an analogy ,as such not all points are true , That point being don't whine if you pick a fight and someone responds. Unlike some in the way I did not just take things that were unbiblical lying down and complain about it years later, I don't intend to start that career now either.

A bull charging seeking to discredit posters who vpw abused...

How does that fit with the mission of this board?

About the same as poster that pick fights and then whine about it while accusing people of charges they have no proof for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:) Dan. Self regulation is in place now. I'm suggesting - put the tools of Moderation in the hand of the people. Power to the peop's.

Outrageous - yes, in a way. Practical? Maybe not, maybe not even possible.

I see it like this - a person tells their side to the story and it's negative and the response is:

They have an axe to grind.

They're bitter.

They're not telling the truth.

They're looking to make money off their book.

They're trying to get attention.

They're making the bad out to be much bigger than it was.

Those kinds of comments, observations don't deal with the specifics of the person or their story. They're not related to what's actually being said or written, they're related to why and someone else's perceptions about it.

I guess what rubs some people the wrong way is that there's an automatic assumption that what's being put forth is in fact true.

What's actually happening, IMO, is a reflection of a concern for the person who's writing - an assumption, yes, taking what they're saying on face value, there's a level of concern that should be shown and interest in the well being of that person.

Without that, any discussion of details falls flat - this isn't a "court of law", that's ridiculous, as someone stated already and to try and apply those processes to a discussion board like this is misdirected. There's no "evidence", no jury, no finding or judgment.

That isn't what's going on. If that's the desired direction, I agree that some other kind of forum should be established for it but I wouldn't want to be behind it or involved. That kind of environment sets up a situation that would be extremely unwieldy and could even have legal exposures, I'd think. Not that anyone's noticed that here though, right? :biglaugh:

Regulators, mount up! :biglaugh:

Edited by socks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I stated in another thread...

Well, I said my peace on the subject and offered my opinion as to an easy solution, I'll fade into the background now.

What Pawtucket decides to do will determine if this site is useful to me anymore and if I will choose to point people toward it in the future.

I belonged to The Way once, I'll not put myself in another place that is uncivalized and thrives on strife or strict adherence of particular viewpoints.

good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:) Dan. Self regulation is in place now. I'm suggesting - put the tools of Moderation in the hand of the people. Power to the peop's.

Outrageous - yes, in a way. Practical? Maybe not, maybe not even possible.

I see it like this - a person tells their side to the story and it's negative and the response is:

They have an axe to grind.

They're bitter.

They're not telling the truth.

They're looking to make money off their book.

They're trying to get attention.

They're making the bad out to be much bigger than it was.

Those kinds of comments, observations don't deal with the specifics of the person or their story. They're not related to what's actually being said or written, they're related to why and someone else's perceptions about it.

I guess what rubs some people the wrong way is that there's an automatic assumption that what's being put forth is in fact true.

What's actually happening, IMO, is a reflection of a concern for the person who's writing - an assumption, yes, taking what they're saying on face value, there's a level of concern that should be shown and interest in the well being of that person.

Without that, any discussion of details falls flat - this isn't a "court of law", that's ridiculous, as someone stated already and to try and apply those processes to a discussion board like this is misdirected. There's no "evidence", no jury, no finding or judgment.

That isn't what's going on. If that's the desired direction, I agree that some other kind of forum should be established for it but I wouldn't want to be behind it or involved. That kind of environment sets up a situation that would be extremely unwieldy and could even have legal exposures, I'd think. Not that anyone's noticed that here though, right? :biglaugh:

Regulators, mount up! :biglaugh:

OK I will be honest on how I feel about some of this stuff.

Why is it a fact ONLY after he has died and been dead for decades is any of this ever addressed or metioned?

If he was alive a "testimony" would have to be sure and truth or consequences could be had legaly.

But he is dead so no holes barred now.

I have heard it said "countless victims of sexual abuse" and worse but no one metions or sought legal recourse other than a civil suit towards LCM.

do not twist this into what I may think or not about what some have written about their story.

but do not kid yourself in thinking this fact does not play a factor in forming an opinion on what is being said is true or not. those who are convinced are convinced and feel hurt and betrayed when somone metions the facts as they are and then they do attack. it isnt just the "victims" being attacked it is the TRUTH of the situation that sets them a flying into a rage, truth is NONE of this will ever be anything but an opinion formed about a long dead man who can not defend himself other than the FACT when he could defend himself no one did say a thing about this stuff to the police or courts.

yes we ll have heard why.

but as socks said he doesnt want anything to do with it LEGAL EXPOSURE is possible.

in other words a POSTER would have to be accountable to what they say about another dead or alive.

and some how that is not such a popular notion on the internet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dove, please define how, where, and why I have hurt you. Yes, I will admit that I despise wierwille for the pain and damage that he inflicted... I detest his teachings that justify and facilitate evil... I hate what abiding by these teachings has done to you and others, but I am unaware of any deliberate or hurtful personal insults that I have ever leveled against you.

Dove, please define how, where, and why I have hurt you. Yes, I will admit that I despise wierwille for the pain and damage that he inflicted... I detest his teachings that justify and facilitate evil... I hate what abiding by these teachings has done to you and others, but I am unaware of any deliberate or hurtful personal insults that I have ever leveled against you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why is it a fact ONLY after he has died and been dead for decades is any of this ever addressed or metioned? If he was alive a "testimony" would have to be sure and truth or consequences could be had legaly.

But he is dead so no holes barred now.

I read a statement on GS once a few years go, typo or no I don't know - that there were/have been "1.000's" of women who were prey to Wierwille. I can't verify it either way but I suspect that was an exaggeration. Which also goes to the numbers not being important - 1 or 1,000 - but obviously there's a level of activity represented there and the important issue would be consistency, habit, and repitition, if it happened more than once, and what were the circumstances, etc.

VPW's circumstances were reasonably stable, once he started The Way, Inc. So there's a lot of commonality that can be established in his activities, endeavors, etc. despite the fact he kept a lot of things to himself or under wraps.

I feel your pain but have to say - a court doesn't establish "truth", all respect to the process. Judgment, determination, yes. There will be disagreement coming out, as going on, regardless of what the judge or jury determined.

Once an event is over, it's over. The facts are the facts, be we alive or dead. But they can't be physically reconstructed again, ever, after they're over. Repeated, but the repeated instance won't be the same as the original. I know that's obvious.

Eyewitness accounts - again, no singluar vision can be experienced by separate entities, "observers" or participants. Each is separate. Similar but never identical for the obvious reason that - they're different.

3 people can "see the same thing", and the event is one, but the observances are mulitple - in that way they're informed by the receptors, those who "saw" it, something. Effort has to be made to establish consistency, it can never be assumed that everyone "saw the same thing", although we do deal with that all the time, just from a practical standpoint.

I would suggest that concensus can be reached - on certain things, if the effort is made to do so. That's probably about the best that can be expected given the realities we deal with.

This board shouldn't be run as if it were a "court" of law. Those kinds of expectations and requirements don't fit here because the board isn't set up to function that way, the mechanisms aren't in place to do that. People write, post, tell their stories, discussion occurs, etc. etc. The stuff to do that is what's in place.

So to that point - it isn't a fact because now, it's stated. It was a fact at the time of the event. The question "why tell it now" is answered by "because that's when it's being told".

There are reasons for that and they're frequently stated - people were intimidated, unsure, fearful, in some cases talked out of sayinng anything at the time of the event. Moved on, tried to forget, didn't understand. Thought it was alright then and now have decided it wasn't. There are lots of reasons.

I can tell you from personal experience - but don't take my word for it please - VPW could be very insistent, intimidating and make his case very clear when he didn't want you to do something, or talk about something or to just forget about something. He could lay out consequences if you didn't comply.

He didn't offer the kind of "court" system justice that's been suggested people apply here, across the board, by any means.

If he were alive today, I would offer this - as far as this board goes, I don't think the kind of activity or the approaches seen here would be any different. More dynamic, yes. But I think it would be very much the same.

There are legal exposures - there are now, would be if anyone represented his estate and ongoing interests. The Way doesn't, obviously. The Allen case was a single effort, with them, The Way and LCM.

VPW is long gone, but if anyone had a mind to and an interest, whatever it would be, they could mount an effort to challenge, formally, what's been circulated amongst their former members and community.

Anyone ever wonder why no one has? I think amongst the array of possible reasons, there are similarities to what goes on here, on GS.

Edited by socks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

WD...

How many times do you have to have it spelled out for you?

THIS is not a court of law.

THIS place does NOT provide rights for wierwille.

And YOU are doing something markedly different than what you claim is being done to you.

YOU harass victims of abuse. Of course, these are self-identified victims of abuse. But their self-identification does NOT negate their experience.

OTOH, you come here and only claim that you are being abused by those who demand you stop abusing victims of abuse in real (non-cyber) life.

And without question, you avoided really answering waterbuffalo's questions.

YOU need to STOP harassing victims of abuse.

Perhaps, if YOU do so, then you will see a dramatic decrease in what you claim is improper treatment here by others against you.

What do you have to lose...?

Have you given any thought/reflection to what I posed as my theory?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And without question, you avoided really answering waterbuffalo's questions.

YOU need to STOP harassing victims of abuse.

Perhaps, if YOU do so, then you will see a dramatic decrease in what you claim is improper treatment here by others against you.

What do you have to lose...?

Have you given any thought/reflection to what I posed as my theory?

WD, I would like to dialogue with you, but you've given no real information about why you like to hang out at the cafe. What motivates you? Maybe if I knew that it would help me to understand you better...you said you haven't been getting a lot out of coming here, lately...what would you like to get out of coming here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dove, please define how, where, and why I have hurt you. Yes, I will admit that I despise wierwille for the pain and damage that he inflicted... I detest his teachings that justify and facilitate evil... I hate what abiding by these teachings has done to you and others, but I am unaware of any deliberate or hurtful personal insults that I have ever leveled against you.

QUOTE

You guys offend people with your callousness.

The same could be said for you and others. I'm offended by yours as well. So do you all quit speaking as well? I've never asked for you or anyone not to speak whatever was on their mind, we can dispute it, we are all adults here are we so fragile that someone's view distresses us ?

What I said was your callousness is just as offensive and others as well. I never mentioned personal insults. Your consistant claim of guilt where none is on record is offending to the rights of our country.

WD...

How many times do you have to have it spelled out for you?

THIS is not a court of law.

THIS place does NOT provide rights for wierwille.

And YOU are doing something markedly different than what you claim is being done to you.

YOU harass victims of abuse. Of course, these are self-identified victims of abuse. But their self-identification does NOT negate their experience.

OTOH, you come here and only claim that you are being abused by those who demand you stop abusing victims of abuse in real (non-cyber) life.

And without question, you avoided really answering waterbuffalo's questions.

YOU need to STOP harassing victims of abuse.

Perhaps, if YOU do so, then you will see a dramatic decrease in what you claim is improper treatment here by others against you.

What do you have to lose...?

Have you given any thought/reflection to what I posed as my theory?

How many times do you have to have it spelled out to you it is improper to accuse someone of a crime when none is on record as having been comitted. I never said it was a court.

WD, I would like to dialogue with you, but you've given no real information about why you like to hang out at the cafe. What motivates you? Maybe if I knew that it would help me to understand you better...you said you haven't been getting a lot out of coming here, lately...what would you like to get out of coming here?

Well we could start with being able to post an opinion without the pack of posters misquoting every word. I like to se being able to post in concern for our basic rights being honored for all without the snipe of being called a Wierwille apologist following. They are not one in the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WD said:

So all those who read accounts here and jump on the bandwagon declaring guilt because they agree with what was posted have no say. Cause I see very few first hand accounts the most rabid attacks come from people that were not there but have liked what they hear. It appears they think they have something to say

My reply

The incident I cited on the Losing The Way thread, which was carried over to the Toughen You Up thread, was not second hand. I was there. So was another poster here who corroborated the incident. That makes it a "first hand account".

Edited by waysider
Link to comment
Share on other sites

WD said:

So all those who read accounts here and jump on the bandwagon declaring guilt because they agree with what was posted have no say. Cause I see very few first hand accounts the most rabid attacks come from people that were not there but have liked what they hear. It appears they think they have something to say

My reply

The incident I cited on the Losing The Way thread, which was carried over to the Toughen You Up thread, was not second hand. I was there. So was another poster here who corroborated the incident. That makes it a "first hand account".

You took a quote to someone else from a post to them and attributed it to some thread of yours ,not honest......

How many lies can you tell on this forum WD?

If I wanted I could document everyone.

You say you don't do such and such.

But you did and do.

That is a liar.

Cman you need to take some time and chill out in my opinion, I know thatyou don't value that but you are getting wound up way too tight over a discussion. Just Saying .....You can do as you see fit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You took a quote to someone else from a post to them and attributed it to some thread of yours ,not honest......

First of all, did you or did you not make the statement?

Secondly, I did not attribute it to "my thread", whatever that means.

You said.

I replied.

Capeesh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope not wound up.

That's another lie.

And yes I am doing as seen fit.

Your opinion??!!! aaww that's rich!!!.......

Yes you are........ posting personal attacks that result in the moderators work of removing them, they contribute nothing to discussion. I'd hate to see your right to speak silenced here, because I value those rights we enjoy, but that is your choice........

First of all, did you or did you not make the statement?

Secondly, I did not attribute it to "my thread", whatever that means.

You said.

I replied.

Capeesh?

I made the statement to another poster in the context of her questions ,you took it from there and framed it in some responce about another thread Loosing the Way which is not this conversation Capeech?

Edited by WhiteDove
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes you are........ posting personal attacks that result in the moderators work of removing them, they contribute nothing to discussion. I'd hate to see your right to speak silenced here, because I value those rights we enjoy, but that is your choice.......

Yeah, it's their right to moderate this forum.

But you read it didn't you.

And they did.

That contributed.

You have managed to avoid moderation with your plan.

But that is all you have avoided.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure,

But keep in mind, the more you do something the better you get and after, oh, I dont know after 2,000, 3000, maybe 5,000 posts you become pretty knowledgable with the current ebb and flow of the forum here and kinda know how people are going to reply and how to reply to get the response wanted, which IMO makes that person a proffessional poster.

And they can be lonely too :(

But my point was the new person and the casual poster can not compete with the wordsmiths who have made a committment here(i'm sure each has there own reasons)by the numerous posts they contribute to the forum and the casual or new person can feel either attacked, feel like they are not wanted unless they agree with the long-timers, dont bother commenting or walk away because of... what's the word... the "charged atmosphere" here. If people cant feel comfortablle making comments, expressing opinion or asking questions then it can drive away the new and curious before they ever get involved And it happens from both sides of this issue.

I'm a staunch supporter of the underdog - the unqualified, the uncommitted and the newperson side of this issue. Just because the victims(and defenders) and the applogist are loud and voiceful doesn't mean there aren't other sides being affected here, they are just more quiet(except me)

Thank you for the reply. I hope this isn't the case as far as new posters go. I remember being one like it was yesterday -- and believe me, in my opinion, this is a kinder, gentler place.

I agree about "they" can be lonely too :(

I sincerely hope that a new person will not go away because of wordsmiths. They can be an attack unto themselves which I'm familiar with. I hope new posters can see and be thankful for differing opinions. But I hope it's not a pipe dream. Pond was making good points about how you get to know everyone and what's going on here.

Like I said before, I'm not sure, even though I take it you think I should be. No offense in any way.

But I hope when I tell what happened to me, the new person will know I speak honestly and from my heart.

That's all for now :) Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

one more thing, i'm a firsthand "accounter"

and i find it very embarrassing

ExC, while I am more sorry than you could know that you are a firsthand accounter, I am honored and grateful that I was here to see you unfold your account. Elsewise I could still be one who had doubts about what happened and what did not. Thank you for sharing your story, especially in the face of all the flak you received for doing so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hopefully this bs won't go much further exc.

That's why I posted anyway.

This has been a subtle way to destroy lives...again.

Right here where so many got help.

And I think it should stop.

WD has no right to speak of any victims the way he has.

It's just not right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the reply. I hope this isn't the case as far as new posters go. I remember being one like it was yesterday -- and believe me, in my opinion, this is a kinder, gentler place.

I agree about "they" can be lonely too :(

I sincerely hope that a new person will not go away because of wordsmiths. They can be an attack unto themselves which I'm familiar with. I hope new posters can see and be thankful for differing opinions. But I hope it's not a pipe dream. Pond was making good points about how you get to know everyone and what's going on here.

Like I said before, I'm not sure, even though I take it you think I should be. No offense in any way.

But I hope when I tell what happened to me, the new person will know I speak honestly and from my heart.

That's all for now :) Thanks.

Sweet excathedra,

I feel like you think I've attacked or dont care about your experiences. That's far from the truth. I feel for you and everyone here who has been hurt by the ministry no matter how it happened. We are all victims to some degree or another, but some like yourself have apparently hade some true horrors in your past and if I coud take those memories away so you could live with out it I would.

I guess I'm coming at this whole thing from a totally different angle than everyone and am tired of the fight so to speak. I wrote this to someone in a PM and they asked that I post in the forum. So even though it isn't directed at you or your experience, this thread is probably still the place to post it

Quote from a PM:

.......We keep harping on a dead man, and his ministry. truth be told, it's not his anymore. If anything its more Craigs. Anyway, things change and although its still a cult and has many flaws it is not the same mnistry it was during VPW's time. those that are active here for the most part are relics of an old ministry and can no more relate to the current one anymore than those lifers in the ministry can relate to the real world of today. They as well as here have not moved with the changes of time. The last five years in the ministry I think the nly time his name came up was just in rememberance. He by most of the younger generation is considered an old wine skin. The same can be said of Craig too. They have moved on and if people here wanna help and relate to those still in then they need to really find out what the current mindset is and appeal to that.

So in general I have no beef with anyone here, it's just the ebb and flow of the overall tone. I dont see it being helpful, but more destructive. ....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, although I couldn't disagree more.

The Way Ministry was "built" on Dr. Wierwille. He was destructive.

Not sure if that makes sense.

I will try to explain better whenever :)

They have moved on and if people here wanna help and relate to those still in then they need to really find out what the current mindset is and appeal to that.

I'm sorry, that's not my mission.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand what JSN is saying and what you're saying as well Excie.

You're saying that the very beginnings of the cult were evil and will always the same. I posted the quote :

"Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it." --- George Santana

That's a valid point and reason to post.

So is the need to heal, vent, talk.

JSN is saying that if there is a concern about those involved in TWI now that there may need to be some tweaking to address the cult as it is now.

Perhaps there are two prongs to the same mission?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...