I think when someone is discussing a painful personal experience, the "big leaguers" should hold their tongues out of respect, compassion, whatever.
If they see something within that thread that is separate and apart from the personal experience, i.e. "yeah, maybe vpw did those things, but his teachings are still truth . . ." they could simply start their own thread and leave out the names and specific details of the poster's personal experience.
Example "There has been personal testimony that VPW raped women" this may be true (though it is "undocumented") but I still believe he taught us many truths . . . " That thread, could then discuss the pro's and con's of what was taught, without derailing the thread of or in anyway hurting the person who posted their own personal story.
Conversely, however, those who have been harmed are going to have to reach a place where they either opt to ignore such threads and not respond in them, or be prepared for the "big league" responses they are going to be faced with.
Ultimately, it is going to require self restraint on the part of the individual posters, in order for it to work. Maybe, hopefully, someone else will have a better solution. :)
I read that you want to be sensitive to a "testimony" of a victim story about an incident involving the way, and your particularly concerned about "new" posters or posters who do not have the ability to " voice " their ideals as strongly as a poster who has used this forum for many years.
A person without the ability to conteract the opposing view may want to think again about this forum as a platform .
I do hear your concern and eagerness to give a platform. that is cool Yet the extreme is groucho desire to see all "apologists not express their view.
So it would have to be censored.
Yes limited in some way. Why? Because as you said "we are not going to get along".
So if your interested in keeping all views on this site, my suggestion is have a topic box that says NO other view points allowed or some such rule.
you would need to move new topics to that topic area like you do move stuff to the soap area.
You know best how to write the rules on what type of policing your looking for .
As far as the same old same old posters who do have equal strength or "voice" and years and years of battle in their trenches dug so darn deep it is imposible to make them stop... Well they could use that forum and stop complaining of being attacked by their opposing mentors.
will it work?
Only if those who want to post here and put "testimony" or storys want it to work. I see a problem because these discussions often do not begin as a testimony of sexual abuse but TURN INTO that subject when certain posters join the discussion and bitterness and anger of past encounters play a role and the entire thread dismisses its self to their own personal problems with one another.
They change the thread into a mess and it is BOTH "sides" of the story doing it.
The motive isnt to be "heard" it is to be right and that is a big difference in motive on how one can be "victimized" in a thread.
I think in a sense it gives license for some to abuse others by playing the victim card to the point of not allowing others to be heard just to generate strife with another poster.
so I think it goes both ways in some threads esp. amoung long time posters.
The solution I see you manufacuture is they get sent to the soap box which is really where they belong because I also believe it is a personal agenda between certain posters.
Those not in the "Big League" do not fall into this group so a seperate topic center policed by your own rules that defines the borders of the discussions abeit censored and limited may work.
I would vote for a separate category altogether titled "Victims Personal Experiences" wherein rules of that category would be very strict and in complete favor of the victim. No doubting, dissent, questioning, debating, interrogation allowed. etc.
I would vote for a separate category altogether titled "Victims Personal Experiences" wherein rules of that category would be very strict and in complete favor of the victim. No doubting, dissent, questioning, debating, interrogation allowed. etc.
I'm not so sure this would work. So many times the stories come out in the middle of a thread. Would that mean that since the post started in "About the Way" or "Open" that the derail posts were up for grabs?
I personally like the idea of asking posters to have some self-restraint and sensitivity. A different thread should be started for discussion.
Those who post their stories need to feel safe in doing so. They also would need to understand that there most likely would be a thread started questioning their story and that they should ignore it if they don't feel up to being cross-examined in any way.
How about a subcategory"About The Way -Lite" were people feel they can express themselves and ask honest questions without the fear of being attacked or belittled. And if the topic gets too serious either a new thread can be made in the main forum or the thread could be moved to there.
Actually, now that I think about it while I'm writing, I think maybe the main About The Way category should have the respectful enviornment and make a seperate subcategory for when it gets overboard like "About the Way w/extra caffine(Dark roast)- were the gloves can come off"
This way the lurkers and the casual posters can feel free to post their ideas, views and experiences without fear of being ripped apart by "Proffesional Posters"
Ebay just changed it's policies on feedback for just ths same reason. People weren't leaving honest feedback because the sellers were witholding their feedback until the buyer left theirs, and if they left neg. then the seller would too.
LOL, I think 17,000+ posts makes you a professional poster
Not accusing you of ripping people apart, but you fall into the category of a professional poster. Most casual posters are not looking to get into a debate, they just want to share a hurt, an expreience or a view point. The longer someone posts the more likely they are of being willing to or wanting to debate a topic.
The more you debate it the more proficient you get, hence a "Proffesional Poster"
The average new person and casual poster does not want to get into the debate so they end up either not posting or get driven away without getting any help. having a seperate area for the "hardcore" allows the debate but gives a defined arena in which to "have at it". That's my point, everyone can have their cake and eat it too.
So you're suggesting a "About the Way and 'Tacks" much like "Politics and 'Tacks"...?
EXACTLY
at least I think since i dont use that category, but a sub category for when things get out of bounds or someone "wants" to start a controversial topic "About The Way"
I would vote for a separate category altogether titled "Victims Personal Experiences" wherein rules of that category would be very strict and in complete favor of the victim. No doubting, dissent, questioning, debating, interrogation allowed. etc.
Bottom line is that YOU (OM) need to recognize it, and not have someone else tell you that what someone is posting is what you should refrain from being abusive about.
YOU seem to want to make it someone else's responsibility for you to behave yourself. That's NOT reasonable. YOU are responsible for YOUR conduct. Behave yourself or leave of your own volition. How old are you now anyway? 17?????
THAT (and WD and maybe others) would obviate the need for pawtucket to restructure things here.
I'm not so sure this would work. So many times the stories come out in the middle of a thread. Would that mean that since the post started in "About the Way" or "Open" that the derail posts were up for grabs?
I personally like the idea of asking posters to have some self-restraint and sensitivity. A different thread should be started for discussion.
Those who post their need to feel safe in doing so. They also would need to understand that there most likely would be a thread started questioning their story and that they should ignore it if they don't feel up to being cross-examined in any way.
That, dear Dooj... is perhaps being a bit too polite about it. Your point SHOULD BE well taken by Oldiesman and others of his ILK.
And IF they CHOOSE (not anyone else's responsibility but their own) to refuse to conduct themselves as this community believes they should, they should choose to leave (on their own). IF they do NOT take these hints, they should be specifically confronted.
If they do not take the hints THEN, they should be banned.
No further changing of the rules OUGHT to be necessary.
Bottom line is that YOU (OM) need to recognize it, and not have someone else tell you that what someone is posting is what you should refrain from being abusive about.
YOU seem to want to make it someone else's responsibility for you to behave yourself. That's NOT reasonable. YOU are responsible for YOUR conduct. Behave yourself or leave of your own volition. How old are you now anyway? 17?????
THAT (and WD and maybe others) would obviate the need for pawtucket to restructure things here.
That, dear Dooj... is perhaps being a bit too polite about it. Your point SHOULD BE well taken by Oldiesman and others of his ILK.
And IF they CHOOSE (not anyone else's responsibility but their own) to refuse to conduct themselves as this community believes they should, they should choose to leave (on their own). IF they do NOT take these hints, they should be specifically confronted.
If they do not take the hints THEN, they should be banned.
No further changing of the rules OUGHT to be necessary.
That's what I meant. I don't really want to see more rules. I find it almost absurd that adults cannot manage to take responsibility for their actions.
Paw...I think it would be appropriate to create a forum where people who tell their stories can do so without detractors...
It would be a good idea for a lot of reasons...
And even WITH such a new forum, OM and his ilk should be expected to conduct themselves with respect, at minimum, to refrain from abusive language toward any person relating personal experience of abuse in twi, regardless of which forum such a post would be made.
That's what I meant. I don't really want to see more rules. I find it almost absurd that adults cannot manage to take responsibility for their actions.
I know... I figured out (finally) that that is what you were getting at.
And even WITH such a new forum, OM and his ilk should be expected to conduct themselves with respect, at minimum, to refrain from abusive language toward any person relating personal experience of abuse in twi, regardless of which forum such a post would be made.
BUT, that would give definition to the forum area and a reason for banning and not just because of their view, it wold prove a harassing and destrucive intention and THAT would be grounds for banning.
BUT, that would give definition to the forum area and a reason for banning and not just because of their view, it wold prove a harassing and destrucive intention and THAT would be grounds for banning.
My point is twofold:
-- it should NOT have to be spelled out in writing, it CAN be a specific expectation (more) or unwritten rule.
-- it should NOT have to be something to add to pawtucket's burden here.
Those who already frequent the cafe here, who participate in the offending behavior, know who they are.
If YOU are one of them, just STOP.
Oldiesman has spelled out his need to blame others for his inability to behave himself. I, for one, don't buy it. He should take responsibility for his conduct, or leave.
I dunno - this whole - "I want a written rule" stuff just irks the crap outta me.
It's like asking for a new way to make a loophole.
That might be it, but I think it boils down to him being unwilling to take responsibility for his own conduct.
-- it should NOT have to be spelled out in writing, it CAN be a specific expectation (more) or unwritten rule.
-- it should NOT have to be something to add to pawtucket's burden here.
Those who already frequent the cafe here, who participate in the offending behavior, know who they are.
If YOU are one of them, just STOP.
Oldiesman has spelled out his need to blame others for his inability to behave himself. I, for one, don't buy it. He should take responsibility for his conduct, or leave.
That might be it, but I think it boils down to him being unwilling to take responsibility for his own conduct.
I hear ya, but if that was the case, we wouldnt have Paw asking for suggestions, which brings me to why I suggested a highly caffinated area-because Paw asked for suggestions. this bickering isnt gonna do anything so something has to change whether we like it or not.
Mr. Linder & friends have to be sitting there roaring wth laughter at us right now, slapping each other on the back saying" Yep, when you leave The Way see what happens"
damn, cant people just agree to disagree, I guess not, or I wouldnt be writing this.
There was that sickening little saying I heard in TWI:
"It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission."
It became a game.
I know that in essence starting a sub-category for those that want to cross-examine and undermine victims' stories is a rule of sorts, it also limits those posters who are guilty of such.
It's hard enough to get up the nerve to post a story of abuse, much less have to think about what thread to post it on. And to have to think about starting a brand new topic in a sub-forum specifically for that - I dunno... seems more like having to whisper a secret all over again.
The attacks are the problem- put the limitations on the problem, not the victims.
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As always great post
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Abigail
I think when someone is discussing a painful personal experience, the "big leaguers" should hold their tongues out of respect, compassion, whatever.
If they see something within that thread that is separate and apart from the personal experience, i.e. "yeah, maybe vpw did those things, but his teachings are still truth . . ." they could simply start their own thread and leave out the names and specific details of the poster's personal experience.
Example "There has been personal testimony that VPW raped women" this may be true (though it is "undocumented") but I still believe he taught us many truths . . . " That thread, could then discuss the pro's and con's of what was taught, without derailing the thread of or in anyway hurting the person who posted their own personal story.
Conversely, however, those who have been harmed are going to have to reach a place where they either opt to ignore such threads and not respond in them, or be prepared for the "big league" responses they are going to be faced with.
Ultimately, it is going to require self restraint on the part of the individual posters, in order for it to work. Maybe, hopefully, someone else will have a better solution. :)
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pond
Pawtucket
I read that you want to be sensitive to a "testimony" of a victim story about an incident involving the way, and your particularly concerned about "new" posters or posters who do not have the ability to " voice " their ideals as strongly as a poster who has used this forum for many years.
A person without the ability to conteract the opposing view may want to think again about this forum as a platform .
I do hear your concern and eagerness to give a platform. that is cool Yet the extreme is groucho desire to see all "apologists not express their view.
So it would have to be censored.
Yes limited in some way. Why? Because as you said "we are not going to get along".
So if your interested in keeping all views on this site, my suggestion is have a topic box that says NO other view points allowed or some such rule.
you would need to move new topics to that topic area like you do move stuff to the soap area.
You know best how to write the rules on what type of policing your looking for .
As far as the same old same old posters who do have equal strength or "voice" and years and years of battle in their trenches dug so darn deep it is imposible to make them stop... Well they could use that forum and stop complaining of being attacked by their opposing mentors.
will it work?
Only if those who want to post here and put "testimony" or storys want it to work. I see a problem because these discussions often do not begin as a testimony of sexual abuse but TURN INTO that subject when certain posters join the discussion and bitterness and anger of past encounters play a role and the entire thread dismisses its self to their own personal problems with one another.
They change the thread into a mess and it is BOTH "sides" of the story doing it.
The motive isnt to be "heard" it is to be right and that is a big difference in motive on how one can be "victimized" in a thread.
I think in a sense it gives license for some to abuse others by playing the victim card to the point of not allowing others to be heard just to generate strife with another poster.
so I think it goes both ways in some threads esp. amoung long time posters.
The solution I see you manufacuture is they get sent to the soap box which is really where they belong because I also believe it is a personal agenda between certain posters.
Those not in the "Big League" do not fall into this group so a seperate topic center policed by your own rules that defines the borders of the discussions abeit censored and limited may work.
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oldiesman
I would vote for a separate category altogether titled "Victims Personal Experiences" wherein rules of that category would be very strict and in complete favor of the victim. No doubting, dissent, questioning, debating, interrogation allowed. etc.
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doojable
I'm not so sure this would work. So many times the stories come out in the middle of a thread. Would that mean that since the post started in "About the Way" or "Open" that the derail posts were up for grabs?
I personally like the idea of asking posters to have some self-restraint and sensitivity. A different thread should be started for discussion.
Those who post their stories need to feel safe in doing so. They also would need to understand that there most likely would be a thread started questioning their story and that they should ignore it if they don't feel up to being cross-examined in any way.
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JustSayNO
How about a subcategory"About The Way -Lite" were people feel they can express themselves and ask honest questions without the fear of being attacked or belittled. And if the topic gets too serious either a new thread can be made in the main forum or the thread could be moved to there.
Actually, now that I think about it while I'm writing, I think maybe the main About The Way category should have the respectful enviornment and make a seperate subcategory for when it gets overboard like "About the Way w/extra caffine(Dark roast)- were the gloves can come off"
This way the lurkers and the casual posters can feel free to post their ideas, views and experiences without fear of being ripped apart by "Proffesional Posters"
Ebay just changed it's policies on feedback for just ths same reason. People weren't leaving honest feedback because the sellers were witholding their feedback until the buyer left theirs, and if they left neg. then the seller would too.
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excathedra
I'm not sure.
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JustSayNO
LOL, I think 17,000+ posts makes you a professional poster
Not accusing you of ripping people apart, but you fall into the category of a professional poster. Most casual posters are not looking to get into a debate, they just want to share a hurt, an expreience or a view point. The longer someone posts the more likely they are of being willing to or wanting to debate a topic.
The more you debate it the more proficient you get, hence a "Proffesional Poster"
The average new person and casual poster does not want to get into the debate so they end up either not posting or get driven away without getting any help. having a seperate area for the "hardcore" allows the debate but gives a defined arena in which to "have at it". That's my point, everyone can have their cake and eat it too.
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excathedra
was that a compliment or an insult ?
:)
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JustSayNO
neither- a fact
It could be a compliment, since the more you do it the more skillful you become.
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doojable
So you're suggesting a "About the Way and 'Tacks" much like "Politics and 'Tacks"...?
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JustSayNO
EXACTLY
at least I think since i dont use that category, but a sub category for when things get out of bounds or someone "wants" to start a controversial topic "About The Way"
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doojable
:)
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Rocky
Bottom line is that YOU (OM) need to recognize it, and not have someone else tell you that what someone is posting is what you should refrain from being abusive about.
YOU seem to want to make it someone else's responsibility for you to behave yourself. That's NOT reasonable. YOU are responsible for YOUR conduct. Behave yourself or leave of your own volition. How old are you now anyway? 17?????
THAT (and WD and maybe others) would obviate the need for pawtucket to restructure things here.
That, dear Dooj... is perhaps being a bit too polite about it. Your point SHOULD BE well taken by Oldiesman and others of his ILK.
And IF they CHOOSE (not anyone else's responsibility but their own) to refuse to conduct themselves as this community believes they should, they should choose to leave (on their own). IF they do NOT take these hints, they should be specifically confronted.
If they do not take the hints THEN, they should be banned.
No further changing of the rules OUGHT to be necessary.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Paw...I think it would be appropriate to create a forum where people who tell their stories can do so without detractors...
It would be a good idea for a lot of reasons...
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doojable
That's what I meant. I don't really want to see more rules. I find it almost absurd that adults cannot manage to take responsibility for their actions.
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Rocky
And even WITH such a new forum, OM and his ilk should be expected to conduct themselves with respect, at minimum, to refrain from abusive language toward any person relating personal experience of abuse in twi, regardless of which forum such a post would be made.
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doojable
I'd actually prefer a forum where those that want to argue and ask for proof can do it on their own threads.
Or else it's like making the victims keep their stories hidden - again.
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Rocky
I know... I figured out (finally) that that is what you were getting at.
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doojable
I dunno - this whole - "I want a written rule" stuff just irks the crap outta me.
It's like asking for a new way to make a loophole.
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JustSayNO
BUT, that would give definition to the forum area and a reason for banning and not just because of their view, it wold prove a harassing and destrucive intention and THAT would be grounds for banning.
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Rocky
My point is twofold:
-- it should NOT have to be spelled out in writing, it CAN be a specific expectation (more) or unwritten rule.
-- it should NOT have to be something to add to pawtucket's burden here.
Those who already frequent the cafe here, who participate in the offending behavior, know who they are.
If YOU are one of them, just STOP.
Oldiesman has spelled out his need to blame others for his inability to behave himself. I, for one, don't buy it. He should take responsibility for his conduct, or leave.
That might be it, but I think it boils down to him being unwilling to take responsibility for his own conduct.
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JustSayNO
I hear ya, but if that was the case, we wouldnt have Paw asking for suggestions, which brings me to why I suggested a highly caffinated area-because Paw asked for suggestions. this bickering isnt gonna do anything so something has to change whether we like it or not.
Mr. Linder & friends have to be sitting there roaring wth laughter at us right now, slapping each other on the back saying" Yep, when you leave The Way see what happens"
damn, cant people just agree to disagree, I guess not, or I wouldnt be writing this.
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doojable
There was that sickening little saying I heard in TWI:
"It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission."
It became a game.
I know that in essence starting a sub-category for those that want to cross-examine and undermine victims' stories is a rule of sorts, it also limits those posters who are guilty of such.
It's hard enough to get up the nerve to post a story of abuse, much less have to think about what thread to post it on. And to have to think about starting a brand new topic in a sub-forum specifically for that - I dunno... seems more like having to whisper a secret all over again.
The attacks are the problem- put the limitations on the problem, not the victims.
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