I think the 'opposition' can give exway folk a good snap shot of what TWI doctrine can turn you into, so I am not really in favor of banning them. Their ugliness serves a purpose.
But I have no problem with them being muzzled on particularly sensitive threads involving what could be delicate victims, who have already seen much harm. Why should they have to pay another high price to tell their story? And the fact that they can go after such posters is chilling.
I think Pawtucket is well with in his rights and--not to mention his responsibilities--as the owner to delete such posts. Otherwise the stories might never get told.
I agree.
And maybe when the subject is sensitive and folks just want to talk - they can ask the two apologists (sometimes more) to please refrain from posting their rhedoric. And maybe these guys will be decent enough to respect that they really need to keep their nose off that thread. They can start another thread - Why I do not agree with... But stay off the revealing, story telling victims threads. And if they want to not invite us, on their pro VPW thread, - I will (and I bet others will) respect that request.
These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
Our forums cover many topics from religious to political. While we are not a religious site, we do embrace discussions in this area.
All are welcome here. However, harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums. There is no need for personal attacks. If you have a specific problem with a poster, settle it outside of the forum. Threads of that nature will be deleted or sent to the Soap Opera Forum.
The opinions expressed on this site are not necessarily those of the cooks, waitresses, bus boys, or cashier of the GreaseSpot Cafe. [/b]
I've just read through this thread, and although I haven't been involved with most, if any of the threads your talking about, I do think that there have been a few "Clicks" that have formed over the years here. And from what has been said in this thread, some of the problems could probably be resolved by just enforcing the rules.
-Some have talked of personal attacks, guess what - it's against the rules - report it
-Harassing behavior is not alowed- if it's happening- report it
-All are welcome- sounds like it means that this is a public place
-Respect, be courteous, be polite- anything else is against the rules -report it
-These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.- I agree that if freedom of speech and ideas is hindered it makes us no better than The Way- It just comes down to "How" it's presented.
Anyway, there is a solution to the problem in my opinion. It's no that peple are disagreeing, its that its turning callous, rude, personal and even vicious at times, which are all against the rules of this site. Maybe if we uphod that standard that will ban those that need it and NOT because of their political/religious/doctrinal views.
Maybe some on both sides of that fence need booting or just an attitude adjustment.(sorry, have to laugh, anyone who has left da Way has some sort of an attitude )
Now this is just my opinion and is not intended at anyone in particular. It just sounded like a solution was being sought and i thought I'd add an option that might have been overlooked in the heat of the moment.
Not to sound like a flag waving, NRA carrying booby to anyone, but the second you take away someones free speech, although it may not agree with you, you are putting this entire country at peril.
What about the phrase, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
If and I am saying if, because I witnessed nothing, and being a legal secretary, if you are not an eyewittness the testimony is heresay. And it can be refuted. If the story is true it will stand up to scrutiny, if it is not true, then it will fall apart. And we all want to be told the truth, right?
as stated in the 1st and 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, to express information, ideas, and opinions free of government restrictions based on content. A modern legal test of the legitimacy of proposed restrictions on freedom of speech was stated in the opinion by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in Schenk v. U.S. (1919): a restriction is legitimate only if the speech in question poses a "clear and present danger" — i.e., a risk or threat to safety or to other public interests that is serious and imminent. Many cases involving freedom of speech and of the press also have concerned defamation, obscenity, and prior restraint (see Pentagon Papers). See also censorship.
If a person comes into my home and consistently annoys me I get to kick them out. If they cuss out my kids I get to tell them to shut up. If they persist and won't leave I get to call the police and have them removed from my property.
(Not advocating doing that here! But I wanted to make the point that "freedom of speech" doesn't apply to private matters.)
There are exceptions to the hearsay rule - one being excited utterance And there are a few posters here that heard women lament about being with tricky vic in the motorcoach. (It has it's limitations, and I don't pretend to know them all - but summarily dismissing something because it's hearsay would not be accurate.
Then there's corroborating evidence. I don't want to bore everyone with my googling abilities, but I know that the "it's not documented" argument doesn't hold spit.
I know more people that have left this joint over the constant name calling and vicious attacks on other posters like this thread is doing than the one's singled out in this thread have ever driven off. I would say that goes against the purpose of the site if people don't stick around to hear "the other side of the story".
I can 'handle' anyone's opinion in here. I shake my head at wierwilleites, but have no issue with them opining.
It's not exactly a free speech issue to me though, as most everyone posts under assumed names. Internet bravery is a strange phenomena to me. Say any offensive thing you like then call yourself 'captain stinky'.
I will say this-the most ardent vpw supporter in here at least uses his real name.
Hi Abigail, if you didn't read the "Losing the Way" thread before the offending posts were deleted, nor listen to the podcast, you wouldn't really get the reason we find the recent posts by the apologists so offensive. It was way over the top, the debate consumed the thread and the free expression of those of us who were strongly moved by the podcast was interrupted.
I didn't read them, I haven't even listened to the interview, though I am reading the book. I'm more of a reader than a listener -listening without visuals tends to put me to sleep.
Anyway, I don't have an issue with the posts being deleted from that thread, but there is a big difference in deleting a couple ofp osts and banning someone. A number of posters here are sometimes "way over the top" in my opinion, including the person who started this thread. I too have gone "over the top" a time or two. If they were way over the top all the time, or even most of the time, that would be different. Most of the time they are respectful in their disagreements. I agree, however, that greater care is required when one is telling a story of personal experience, especially a painful one.
i don't think pawtucket would, or should do anything different than what he's been doing here since he opened this fine establishment!..........it's my favorite cyber-cafe!.........and, just like any menu, paw's menu here offers things i enjoy, and i try to avoid things i don't like the "taste" of.........point being, it's my choice!.........the same choice is available to all of us who are "regular customers" here!............and, i for one, would'nt want my choices limited to only what i like, or approve of..........and i'm sure many other greasespotters feel the same............
just because the menu choices of some are "not my cup o' tea" does'nt mean they should be denied items better suited to their personal tastes and opinions!..........i strongly defend their "right" to post here, and i would be most disappointed if they were "booted!..........(excie..........they shoot boots don't they??..........LOL!).......
they're subject to the same rules and regs we all are, as well as the even-handed interpretation and "enforcement" of those rules by the owner of this place and the several volunteer moderators..........who have, through the years, imho, demonstrated extreme patience, objectivity, and fairness in the way this site has run!.......in the words of that old adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!
i have "no beef" with the decisions paw and the moderators are forced to make at times..........i'm glad they're willing to make them, and their ability to "do the right thing" has been overwhelmingly demonstrated repeatedly, which is why i think the greasespot is a great place to hang out at!.........diversity is never a threat to the open-minded, nor should it be discouraged...........it can always lead to personal as well as community growth..........so it should be embraced, not feared or denied!
so, i say, "keep on keepin' on" pawtucket!!!.........i don't think there is, nor ever will be another cafe like this one!.........i'd hate to see it change, or "sold" to new management!......i'd consider that a great loss to cyberspace............keep this place OPEN to the public paw!...........you serve up great food for thought here, and the menus are as current and as necessary as they've been since opening day!..............................................peace.
Someone said a long time ago: "Love the Lord your God and love your neighbour as yourself." If you stick to this fairly basic principle, you won't go far wrong here. However, just in case, here are the 10 Commandments of the Ship of Fools bulletin boards, available in easy-to-swallow tablets. Please note that these rules also apply to your user profile and to private messages.
1. Don't be a jerk
Lively, intelligent discussion is what we're about. Jerkish behavior includes (but is not limited to): racism, sexism and all the other negative -isms, trolling and flame-baiting.
2. Engage brain before posting your message
Read the words you've written before you post them. Once they're out there, you can't take them back.
3. Attack the issue, not the person
Name-calling and personal insults are only allowed in Hell. Attacks outside of Hell are grounds for suspension or banning.
4. If you must get personal, take it to Hell
If you get into a personality conflict with other shipmates, you have two simple choices: end the argument or take it to Hell.
5. Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended
Disagreement is normal here. Try not to nurse hurt feelings, and, conversely, if you know you've stuffed it up, cop to it without excuse. We've all had to at some point.
6. Respect the Ship's crew
If you disagree with a member of the Ship's crew (in their official capacity), raise the issue in the Styx, our board for in-house stuff. Personal attacks on hosts, admins and editors for their official actions will be treated as an attempt to disrupt the Ship itself.
7. Don't post illegal material
Posting libellous material, copyright violations or links to sites advocating illegal activities puts us in legal hot water, which makes us very unhappy.
8. Don't crusade
Don't use these boards to promote personal crusades. This space is not here for people to pursue specific agendas and win converts.
9. Don't advertise or spam
Don't use these boards to advertise your site or product, or to lift email addresses to spam our members.
10. Only one identity per member
We do not allow sockpuppets (multiple usernames). Outside of confusing everyone else, people who talk to themselves in this way are just too weird for words.
They have been a disruptive force long enough...this is a privately owned website and not a democracy...and I personally believe that it would be a great idea if Paw decided to get rid of those who constantly disrupt threads, belittle the victims of Wierwille, defend Wierwille, and generally go against the mission of the GSC.
I question their agenda and why they are here...this is not a question of honest debates and differing opinions...this is a deliberate attempt by certain people to shut down threads with their pro-Wierwille rhetoric.
I say it's time to boot them out!
I'll just point out that speaking up for the right to a fair treatment has nothing to do with being a Wierwille apologist
...at the very least, maybe they should be booted from the "About the Way forum" with a close monitering of their other threads...
I think they have caused too much disruption in threads that would have otherwise stayed on topic and allowed the "other side" to be told. These posters have taken advantage of Paw's tolerance and open door policies by destroying threads and insulting those who have stories to tell...
They wouldn't allow pro nazi rallies at a synagogue...these posters should not be allowed to cause anymore disruptions like they have been doing. I left twi a long time ago...I don't cause disruptions at the waybrain website...they shouldn't be causing them here...IMHO
If some posters did not pass off as fact that which has not been proven as such and stick to being satisfied with expressing it as opinion then there would be no discussion.
Not to sound like a flag waving, NRA carrying booby to anyone, but the second you take away someones free speech, although it may not agree with you, you are putting this entire country at peril.
What about the phrase, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
If and I am saying if, because I witnessed nothing, and being a legal secretary, if you are not an eyewittness the testimony is heresay. And it can be refuted. If the story is true it will stand up to scrutiny, if it is not true, then it will fall apart. And we all want to be told the truth, right?
I am for free speech, and rebuttals.
thanks
Thank you Lucy it's nice to see that someone still supports our rights in this country for everybody not just for those we like.
If and I am saying if, because I witnessed nothing, and being a legal secretary, if you are not an eyewittness the testimony is heresay. And it can be refuted. If the story is true it will stand up to scrutiny, if it is not true, then it will fall apart. And we all want to be told the truth, right?
I am for free speech, and rebuttals.
And until someone has been given those rights and found guilty the proper term to refer to those offences in question is alleged.
They have been a disruptive force long enough...this is a privately owned website and not a democracy...and I personally believe that it would be a great idea if Paw decided to get rid of those who constantly disrupt threads, belittle the victims of Wierwille, defend Wierwille, and generally go against the mission of the GSC.
I question their agenda and why they are here...this is not a question of honest debates and differing opinions...this is a deliberate attempt by certain people to shut down threads with their pro-Wierwille rhetoric.
I say it's time to boot them out!
Perhaps those who wish to hurl cheap insults at others should be banned? Perhaps it is they who should start their own thread and not disrupt another with their sniping. I question their agenda and why they are here...this is not a question of honest debates and differing opinions...this is a deliberate attempt by certain people to shut down threads with their Anti-Wierwille apologist rhetoric.
Let's not muddy the waters here, NO ONE is objecting to the wierewille apologists stating their opinions in all their glory and their multitude of flavors and colors, what we are objecting to the most is the fact that the tellers of personal stories involving vp, et al, are being harangued, questioned, and charged about their veracity, with a nebulous demand to prove their statements. Â And the fact they flamebait and troll with endless debates on using the term apologist and wierwill in the same sentence.
That is all.  The overruning of threads which are sensitive in nature and the fact those get derailed is what is not kosher here.
Go ahead and knock yourselves out apologists, tell all your opposing viewpoints, just have a modicome of decency in judgment on what threads to do it on.
Excy, I think even if you had saved the letters, and scanned them in so everyone could see, there would still be a few who would either take issue or say it didn't matter, "Vic-still-taught-me-the-Word" blah blah blah.
As one who has been through character assassination (hey, an assassin is a double a-s-s), I can tell you that one of the neatest things was when someone stuck up for me, saying, "I know you, and that person is whacko." Even better still would have been someone calling that person out on their nastiness. If I stick up for myself, I just sound like the nutjob the naysayers are trying to portray me to be.
But bottom line, my most important job was to realize that I knew what happened, and that other people's opinions or disinterest didn't change that.
-- Shaz
And to Dove, I just have to tell ya, G-spot is not a court of law or a newspaper. I can say that OJ murdered Nicole, and I don't have to say allegedly.
Thank you Lucy it's nice to see that someone still supports our rights in this country for everybody not just for those we like.
And until someone has been given those rights and found guilty the proper term to refer to those offences in question is alleged.
I have stood up for your right to speak your opinion, but even in a courtroom the victim does not refer to the perpetrator as the "alleged perpetrator" and the victim does not refer to the crimes as "alleged crimes." When one is speaking of personal experience, and another comes along and calls their experience "alleged" they are in essence questioning that person's honesty and integrity and that is very personal.
Anyone got a different opinion? No - you mean to say we got RID of everyone with a different opinion.
Wow... what a boring place.
It sucks.
I think you are missing my point...This isn't about different opinions. This is about a pattern of attacks against people who are victims of twi, trying to tell their story...when suddenly...the same posters show up, attacking the credibility of the poster, blaming the victim and generally derailing the thread...
...How many people will, in the future, be willing to share "their story"...when they know that Whitedove and oldiesman are about to attack them?
I am in favor of differing opinions...but don't call what they are doing as people expressing "a different opinion"...what they do is rude and insensitive and insulting to the poster...and 9 times out of ten, the thread becomes totally derailed as a result of their efforts...there's a pattern of this and I believe that it's deliberate.
"Wow...what a boring place"...yeah, I agree. I highly encourage people to think for themselves and to present differing views. I often get involved with the debates in the politics and tacks forum because there are times that I enjoy that type of thing...BUT, I don't think that every thread on every forum is a "debate forum"...when someone is telling their story, they should not have to worry about being attacked...what about the prayer room forum or the forum on memorials?...
All I'm saying is that there is some very inappropriate behavior going on in certain threads ...and although it may not be boring, watching thread after thread go down the toilet is less than satisfying...
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geisha779
Hi, Revictimizing the victims of abuse is itself abusive. It speaks volumes about the one doing it. What they still adhere to shapes their perspective and ability to inflict cruelty on those so horr
excathedra
i'm thinking when you hear that other side of the story -- it helps you realize how sad you used to be on that other side
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Dot Matrix
I agree.
And maybe when the subject is sensitive and folks just want to talk - they can ask the two apologists (sometimes more) to please refrain from posting their rhedoric. And maybe these guys will be decent enough to respect that they really need to keep their nose off that thread. They can start another thread - Why I do not agree with... But stay off the revealing, story telling victims threads. And if they want to not invite us, on their pro VPW thread, - I will (and I bet others will) respect that request.
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excathedra
it's been weird, right ?
for the most part, we're all exwayfers
i was just thinking about this because that other guy came on here
so like my mom has been yelling at me for years
WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FOR HELP FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE IN IT WITH YOU ?????
lol
--
but mom, i find it comforting, no one knows me like they do
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Dot Matrix
I just read "Where's the beef"
"They" are awful
Maybe Groucho is right.
But then it does show how brainwashed and cruel VP's living legacy's are.
I don't know - make this thread a poll
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JustSayNO
I've just read through this thread, and although I haven't been involved with most, if any of the threads your talking about, I do think that there have been a few "Clicks" that have formed over the years here. And from what has been said in this thread, some of the problems could probably be resolved by just enforcing the rules.
-Some have talked of personal attacks, guess what - it's against the rules - report it
-Harassing behavior is not alowed- if it's happening- report it
-All are welcome- sounds like it means that this is a public place
-Respect, be courteous, be polite- anything else is against the rules -report it
-These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.- I agree that if freedom of speech and ideas is hindered it makes us no better than The Way- It just comes down to "How" it's presented.
Anyway, there is a solution to the problem in my opinion. It's no that peple are disagreeing, its that its turning callous, rude, personal and even vicious at times, which are all against the rules of this site. Maybe if we uphod that standard that will ban those that need it and NOT because of their political/religious/doctrinal views.
Maybe some on both sides of that fence need booting or just an attitude adjustment.(sorry, have to laugh, anyone who has left da Way has some sort of an attitude
)
Now this is just my opinion and is not intended at anyone in particular. It just sounded like a solution was being sought and i thought I'd add an option that might have been overlooked in the heat of the moment.
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excathedra
okay
vp got me on the coach and did things against my will
reply
this has never been proven in a court of law, it's just opinion
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doojable
The country is quite safe...
Freedom of Speech
If a person comes into my home and consistently annoys me I get to kick them out. If they cuss out my kids I get to tell them to shut up. If they persist and won't leave I get to call the police and have them removed from my property.
(Not advocating doing that here! But I wanted to make the point that "freedom of speech" doesn't apply to private matters.)
There are exceptions to the hearsay rule - one being excited utterance And there are a few posters here that heard women lament about being with tricky vic in the motorcoach. (It has it's limitations, and I don't pretend to know them all - but summarily dismissing something because it's hearsay would not be accurate.
Then there's corroborating evidence. I don't want to bore everyone with my googling abilities, but I know that the "it's not documented" argument doesn't hold spit.
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excathedra
when i get my law degree, i'll be back, damn it, to tell you what happened to me
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Ductape
I know more people that have left this joint over the constant name calling and vicious attacks on other posters like this thread is doing than the one's singled out in this thread have ever driven off. I would say that goes against the purpose of the site if people don't stick around to hear "the other side of the story".
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hiway29
I can 'handle' anyone's opinion in here. I shake my head at wierwilleites, but have no issue with them opining.
It's not exactly a free speech issue to me though, as most everyone posts under assumed names. Internet bravery is a strange phenomena to me. Say any offensive thing you like then call yourself 'captain stinky'.
I will say this-the most ardent vpw supporter in here at least uses his real name.
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Abigail
I didn't read them, I haven't even listened to the interview, though I am reading the book. I'm more of a reader than a listener -listening without visuals tends to put me to sleep.
Anyway, I don't have an issue with the posts being deleted from that thread, but there is a big difference in deleting a couple ofp osts and banning someone. A number of posters here are sometimes "way over the top" in my opinion, including the person who started this thread. I too have gone "over the top" a time or two. If they were way over the top all the time, or even most of the time, that would be different. Most of the time they are respectful in their disagreements. I agree, however, that greater care is required when one is telling a story of personal experience, especially a painful one.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya greasespotters!
i don't think pawtucket would, or should do anything different than what he's been doing here since he opened this fine establishment!..........it's my favorite cyber-cafe!.........and, just like any menu, paw's menu here offers things i enjoy, and i try to avoid things i don't like the "taste" of.........point being, it's my choice!.........the same choice is available to all of us who are "regular customers" here!............and, i for one, would'nt want my choices limited to only what i like, or approve of..........and i'm sure many other greasespotters feel the same............
just because the menu choices of some are "not my cup o' tea" does'nt mean they should be denied items better suited to their personal tastes and opinions!..........i strongly defend their "right" to post here, and i would be most disappointed if they were "booted!..........(excie..........they shoot boots don't they??..........LOL!).......
they're subject to the same rules and regs we all are, as well as the even-handed interpretation and "enforcement" of those rules by the owner of this place and the several volunteer moderators..........who have, through the years, imho, demonstrated extreme patience, objectivity, and fairness in the way this site has run!.......in the words of that old adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!
i have "no beef" with the decisions paw and the moderators are forced to make at times..........i'm glad they're willing to make them, and their ability to "do the right thing" has been overwhelmingly demonstrated repeatedly, which is why i think the greasespot is a great place to hang out at!.........diversity is never a threat to the open-minded, nor should it be discouraged...........it can always lead to personal as well as community growth..........so it should be embraced, not feared or denied!
so, i say, "keep on keepin' on" pawtucket!!!.........i don't think there is, nor ever will be another cafe like this one!.........i'd hate to see it change, or "sold" to new management!......i'd consider that a great loss to cyberspace............keep this place OPEN to the public paw!...........you serve up great food for thought here, and the menus are as current and as necessary as they've been since opening day!..............................................peace.
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cheranne
Someone said a long time ago: "Love the Lord your God and love your neighbour as yourself." If you stick to this fairly basic principle, you won't go far wrong here. However, just in case, here are the 10 Commandments of the Ship of Fools bulletin boards, available in easy-to-swallow tablets. Please note that these rules also apply to your user profile and to private messages.
1. Don't be a jerk
Lively, intelligent discussion is what we're about. Jerkish behavior includes (but is not limited to): racism, sexism and all the other negative -isms, trolling and flame-baiting.
2. Engage brain before posting your message
Read the words you've written before you post them. Once they're out there, you can't take them back.
3. Attack the issue, not the person
Name-calling and personal insults are only allowed in Hell. Attacks outside of Hell are grounds for suspension or banning.
4. If you must get personal, take it to Hell
If you get into a personality conflict with other shipmates, you have two simple choices: end the argument or take it to Hell.
5. Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended
Disagreement is normal here. Try not to nurse hurt feelings, and, conversely, if you know you've stuffed it up, cop to it without excuse. We've all had to at some point.
6. Respect the Ship's crew
If you disagree with a member of the Ship's crew (in their official capacity), raise the issue in the Styx, our board for in-house stuff. Personal attacks on hosts, admins and editors for their official actions will be treated as an attempt to disrupt the Ship itself.
7. Don't post illegal material
Posting libellous material, copyright violations or links to sites advocating illegal activities puts us in legal hot water, which makes us very unhappy.
8. Don't crusade
Don't use these boards to promote personal crusades. This space is not here for people to pursue specific agendas and win converts.
9. Don't advertise or spam
Don't use these boards to advertise your site or product, or to lift email addresses to spam our members.
10. Only one identity per member
We do not allow sockpuppets (multiple usernames). Outside of confusing everyone else, people who talk to themselves in this way are just too weird for words.
try to follow those ideas!
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dmiller
Perhaps those who continue to twist the knife, ignore personal testimony, and demand *proof*,
should have the *Scarlet Letter* affixed to their avatars, or posts, or both;
Warning others of what to expect in the next few paragraphs.
V
We all know what the *V* stands for, and this is just a thot! ;) :)
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Mike
Thanks Exy!
***
Whoever said (with authority) that there is only one "other side" of the story?
Whoever said (with authority) that posters post in monochromatic flavors?
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ChasUFarley
I'm not a Wierwille Apologist but I'm not sorry I took PFAL...
What does that make me?
Quick!
Let's line up everyone who had a remotely positive experience from their time in TWI and put them on a train!
We must scrub the world (our world, that is) of them.
Let's show how narrow-minded and shallow we really are!
Let's not forget those who took Momentus and got something positive from that, too.
Quick. Hurry. Chop! Chop! No time to waste!
Now... we can be rid of them and now that we all agree on the same exact thing...
TWI sucked.
VPW sucked.
It all sucked.
Every last bit of it. Sucked.
It. Really. Did. Suck.
Nothing good came out of what we learned from VPW. He sucked.
Anyone got a different opinion? No - you mean to say we got RID of everyone with a different opinion.
Wow... what a boring place.
It sucks.
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Rocky
Point well made.
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WhiteDove
I'll just point out that speaking up for the right to a fair treatment has nothing to do with being a Wierwille apologist
If some posters did not pass off as fact that which has not been proven as such and stick to being satisfied with expressing it as opinion then there would be no discussion.
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WhiteDove
Thank you Lucy it's nice to see that someone still supports our rights in this country for everybody not just for those we like.
And until someone has been given those rights and found guilty the proper term to refer to those offences in question is alleged.
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WhiteDove
Perhaps those who wish to hurl cheap insults at others should be banned? Perhaps it is they who should start their own thread and not disrupt another with their sniping. I question their agenda and why they are here...this is not a question of honest debates and differing opinions...this is a deliberate attempt by certain people to shut down threads with their Anti-Wierwille apologist rhetoric.
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now I see
Let's not muddy the waters here, NO ONE is objecting to the wierewille apologists stating their opinions in all their glory and their multitude of flavors and colors, what we are objecting to the most is the fact that the tellers of personal stories involving vp, et al, are being harangued, questioned, and charged about their veracity, with a nebulous demand to prove their statements. Â And the fact they flamebait and troll with endless debates on using the term apologist and wierwill in the same sentence.
That is all.  The overruning of threads which are sensitive in nature and the fact those get derailed is what is not kosher here.
Go ahead and knock yourselves out apologists, tell all your opposing viewpoints, just have a modicome of decency in judgment on what threads to do it on.
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shazdancer
Excy, I think even if you had saved the letters, and scanned them in so everyone could see, there would still be a few who would either take issue or say it didn't matter, "Vic-still-taught-me-the-Word" blah blah blah.
As one who has been through character assassination (hey, an assassin is a double a-s-s), I can tell you that one of the neatest things was when someone stuck up for me, saying, "I know you, and that person is whacko." Even better still would have been someone calling that person out on their nastiness. If I stick up for myself, I just sound like the nutjob the naysayers are trying to portray me to be.
But bottom line, my most important job was to realize that I knew what happened, and that other people's opinions or disinterest didn't change that.
-- Shaz
And to Dove, I just have to tell ya, G-spot is not a court of law or a newspaper. I can say that OJ murdered Nicole, and I don't have to say allegedly.
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Abigail
I have stood up for your right to speak your opinion, but even in a courtroom the victim does not refer to the perpetrator as the "alleged perpetrator" and the victim does not refer to the crimes as "alleged crimes." When one is speaking of personal experience, and another comes along and calls their experience "alleged" they are in essence questioning that person's honesty and integrity and that is very personal.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think you are missing my point...This isn't about different opinions. This is about a pattern of attacks against people who are victims of twi, trying to tell their story...when suddenly...the same posters show up, attacking the credibility of the poster, blaming the victim and generally derailing the thread...
...How many people will, in the future, be willing to share "their story"...when they know that Whitedove and oldiesman are about to attack them?
I am in favor of differing opinions...but don't call what they are doing as people expressing "a different opinion"...what they do is rude and insensitive and insulting to the poster...and 9 times out of ten, the thread becomes totally derailed as a result of their efforts...there's a pattern of this and I believe that it's deliberate.
"Wow...what a boring place"...yeah, I agree. I highly encourage people to think for themselves and to present differing views. I often get involved with the debates in the politics and tacks forum because there are times that I enjoy that type of thing...BUT, I don't think that every thread on every forum is a "debate forum"...when someone is telling their story, they should not have to worry about being attacked...what about the prayer room forum or the forum on memorials?...
All I'm saying is that there is some very inappropriate behavior going on in certain threads ...and although it may not be boring, watching thread after thread go down the toilet is less than satisfying...
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