Boot the Wierwille apologists

[rascal]

Dot,

No offense taken..you are correct. I would never presume to speak as a corpes participant, with the exception of what I experienced as app. corpes a couple of years and a couple of wow years before marrying into the corpes...(just to clarify :) ).

The teachings and the pressure, the manipulation, the level of abuse the standards required were different all over...depending on who your leaders were and what program you might be in. Even within the programs themselves....it was different for participants depending on who, when, and where, whether one was male or female, single, married, with or with out children.

Every pov is valid, every one needs to be heard in order to get the complete picture that was twi.

I didn`t bring this up to be mean, and I don`t want to gang up on the guy, because like you said...he is a really, really nice guy when he isn`t defending twi. The fact is though...that not everybody enjoyed the same idyllic twi experience as was available in any one particular geographic area.

To proclaim that ones personal experience as universal is one thing....but for that to be the basis for nonstop stalking and harassment of others who`s experience differed, it is has simply gotten out of hand.

Edited July 17, 2008 by rascal

[now I see]

It's not WD's POV people object to, it is the stalking and harrassing, and the thread derailment.  

What he's done lately on threads is reprehensible and calulous, he NEEDS to be moderated at the first sign of these actions or limited in general on where he can post. If he puts up a fight or stays rebelious, then the consequences of his "rights" to run threads will be in jeopardy.  No one wants to see him do this again.  

[rascal]

Agreed NIS

[doojable]

We're gonna need some proof of that gig in the desert WD said he's off to.

Let's see... what will we need...

Photos.

An autographed cigarette butt.

A sound file in which Bob Dylan makes a special mention of the Cafe.

A second cigarette butt so we can get DNA confirmed.

What else?

Edited July 17, 2008 by doojable

[WordWolf]

(snip)

I think its interesting that WD stirred up x amount of threads here--evaded the issues, got people onto his legal and constitutional foolishness, --Then conveniently 'left town' to work with "Bob Dylan' <_< when he got asked some pointed questions

(snip)

Yes, how convenient...

Edited July 17, 2008 by WordWolf

[T-Bone]

...I think its interesting that WD stirred up x amount of threads here--evaded the issues, got people onto his legal and constitutional foolishness, --Then conveniently 'left town' to work with "Bob Dylan' <_< when he got asked some pointed questions...

It would be fitting if Dylan sings "Nothing was Delivered" at their session. It sounds like Dylan is talking about "the scam artist formerly known as vic."

"Nothing was Delivered" by Bob Dylan

Nothing was delivered

And I tell this truth to you

Not out of spite or anger

But simply because it's true

Now, I hope you won't object to this

Giving back all what you owe

The fewer words you have to waste on this

The sooner you can go.

Nothing is better, nothing is best

Take heed of this and get plenty of rest.

Nothing was delivered

But I can't say I sympathize

With what your fate is going to be

Yes, for telling all those lies

Now you must provide some answers

For what you sold has not been received

And the sooner you come up with them

The sooner you can leave.

Nothing is better, nothing is best

Take heed of this and get plenty of rest.

Now you know

Nothing was delivered

And it's up to you to say

Just what you had in mind

When you made ev'rybody pay

No, nothing was delivered

Yes, 'n' someone must explain

That as long as it takes to do this

Then that's how long that you'll remain

Nothing is better, nothing is best

Take heed of this and get plenty of rest.

Open The Door, Homer

Now, there's a certain thing

That I learned from Jim

That he's always make sure I'd understand

And that is that there's a certain way

That a man must swim

If he expects to live off

Of the fat of the land

Open the door, Homer

I've heard it said before

Open the door, Homer

I've heard it said before

But I ain't gonna hear it said no more.

Now, there's a certain thing

That I learned from my friend, Mouse

A fella who never blushes in

And that is that ev'ryone

Must always flush out his house

If he don't expect to be

Goin' 'round housing flushes

Open the door, Homer

I've heard it said before

Open the door, Homer

I've heard it said before

But I ain't gonna hear it said no more.

"Take care of all your memories"

Said my friend, Mick

"For you can not relive them

And remember when you're out there

Tryin' to heal the sick

That you must always

First forgive them"

Open the door, Homer

I've heard it said before

Open the door, Homer

I've heard it said before

But I ain't gonna hear it said no more.

Edited July 17, 2008 by T-Bone

[mstar1]

We're gonna need some proof of that gig in the desert WD said he's off to.

Let's see... what will we need...

Photos.

An autographed cigarette butt.

A sound file in which Bob Dylan makes a special mention of the Cafe.

A second cigarette butt so we can get DNA confirmed.

What else?

Photos can be doctored too easily these days, as can sound files, even first hand accounts arent applicable according to WD.

No no none of that is good enough..

Using WD's own methods there is no really way to believe him unless it goes to court and it is confirmed by Dylan and several other witnesses testifying under oath and then is finalized by a judges ruling and made of public record. THEN its believable

isnt that how he wants it to work?

isnt there something in da verd about being judged the way you judge others?

in my lingo-its what goes around comes around

[Belle]

Well, he could send a couple of us tickets to one of the concerts so we can watch him in action.

[doojable]

IIRC he's working in the desert on a video. Is he also working on tour?

[excathedra]

To coin an old phrase, "I'm learning a lot."

I think there's something wrong with me.

lol

--

While I'm at it, I don't like being called a "whiner" -- I've seen that.

[mstar1]

He said he was allegedly working in the desert, but I havent seen any legal substantiation testifying to that yet

So who knows?

Of course Id take some tickets and maybe reconsider

[Dot Matrix]

Yes Rascal. You experienced WOW and an appr. corps year. You were in these flawed programs. You speak from experience

WD was a twig leader and never left his city? Give me a break.... (not directed at you but him) His whole experience was that?

And he says maybe my and Ex's memories are fuzzy and WE WERE THERE?

Geez, he can .... and the horse he rode in on.... ya know?

[cman]

If White Dove is in the penalty box or banned.

I suggest to halt discussion of him in particular.

As far as discussing WD, but not the tactics used.

I think it's moving out of good character to continue.

If he is restricted.

If that is.

The reason being is that we could take this too far.

And I am for giving WD a chance should he return.

Just a suggestion, for your consideration.

peace

[excathedra]

I'm fine with that.

A lot of it is all really sad.

[mstar1]

Yea sorry

im just tired of all this runaround for weeks for what should be common sense

[Tom Strange]

he's not on any sort of restriction that I know of... just that he went to do that video... and it's not like they don't have the internet available there...

[cman]

Yeah, I know, Tom.

I don't know his situation.

It's just, for us, and our own sound thinking.

I think if we think of someone else's thinking too long then it starts to get into ours.

I think...:)

[Rocky]

If I may be FRANK (but do NOT call me SHIRLEY), I wondered why nobody just told him not to let the door hit him on the bee-hind on his way out (to the desert)...

[GrouchoMarxJr]

If I may be FRANK (but do NOT call me SHIRLEY), I wondered why nobody just told him not to let the door hit him on the bee-hind on his way out (to the desert)...

That's a good question Frank...maybe Bob Dylan can set him straight... ...I tried but to no avail...I mean, the guy sticks out like a turd in a punch bowl...if I believed as he did, this would be the last place that I would be.

[simonzelotes]

Ummm does this ring loudly of "mark and avoid". Have we come full circle?

Heavens-to-Betsy, No!...TWI coined that phrase a long time ago...Anybody at greasespot calls it 'mark and avoid' then we might have a lawsuit for plagierism on our hands...But then again, we have a whole legal department staff here that could probably straighten me out on that issue...Let's just call it 'boot' and not have any complications...Besides, Wierwille did enough plagierizing to write a book or five...

I'm not sure what this rings of, really---although, 'lynch mob', 'gang-tackling', 'dog pile' and 'screaming pack of vultures' are phrases that have come to mind...

I tried to go back and read a few threads and see what this is all about---what constitutes a 'Wierwille apologist' and frankly, or Shirley, I'm somewhat confused...One of the threads, titled 'losing the way', it seemed to start over whether we were all victims of mind control or not...The other, 'part two', was hard to tell because most of White Dove's, (or "WD" , the time-saving version, since he's been talked about so much on this thread,) were deleted...So I'm left with these last few threads we've had recently, like this one, where 'WD's' credentials and involvement with the way are demanded to be exposed, where courtroom-like arguments are made on whether or not we should believe everything we read on the internet---if it's first hand, that is,... where Groucho is pulling his best Chris Geer and exhorting us to get back to the original purpose of greasespot...I wondered aloud, here, on another thread, whether greasespot was an ex-way site or an anti-way site, and Groucho seems to have risen up here and answered on behalf of Pawtucket and the majority...

Which is okay,---I like to know where people are coming from...If being a corpse grad (I'm sure somebody here could look that up on an old post somewhere if it helps settle an argument) and not heralding from the mountaintops, or at least from my quiet little cubbie-hole,...on my computer,...under an anonymous name,...the abuse and destruction of VP Wierwille's way international makes me a jagoff---well, I guess it's good to know that...You can't fit in every place..Which, I guess brings me to the question of "what is the purpose of greasespot?"...To expose the sick nature of the way?...Which way?...The current one, the old way or the old, old way?

VPW is certainly not a threat to anybody---he's been dead for over twenty years and the way doesn't even use his class any more...Martindale has been long fired...Haven't heard a lot about Rivenbark here and her abusive practices...In fact, I haven't heard much here at all about anything current about the way...There is a thread going on about Martindale in 1999---nine years ago...Is the way still grooming young women to 'service' the top leadership?...Or is this website more about our past?...It's been said here that greasespot is about recovering from being in an abusive cult...So was the guy who was yelled at by his branch leader for not stringing the chairs properly abused in the same manner as the girl who was lured into the motorcoach?...I guess in the about the way threads, when the subject of abuse comes up, which is most of the time, and the thread evolves into sexual abuse, which is nearly all of the time, only those in 'agreeance' with the greasespot concensus should continue on....

People don't need to have a good reason to hang out with eachother if they enjoy eachother's company---whether in the real world or in the cyber-world...If you only want ex-way people here that think of TWI as a mind-controlling, abusive cult, then kick the rest of the jagoffs out...No reason to hang out with people you don't want to...'Tho, I will say, I don't understand what's so healing about looking at the same experiences, no matter how bad, and continually facing them from the exact perspective each time....

[cman]

far from mark and avoid

the word is to stop personally attacking people here

wd has been very consistent with his attacks and manner of

leave the victims alone with the calling them a liar tactic

mark that and avoid the obvious manner to deal with this in person

i'd report him to the police as a stalker if it continues

no avoiding that, it's against the law

[Mark Clarke]

Heavens-to-Betsy, No!...TWI coined that phrase a long time ago...Anybody at greasespot calls it 'mark and avoid' then we might have a lawsuit for plagierism on our hands...But then again, we have a whole legal department staff here that could probably straighten me out on that issue...Let's just call it 'boot' and not have any complications...Besides, Wierwille did enough plagierizing to write a book or five...

TWI didn't coin the phrase "mark and avoid." It's in the Bible. They just misused it. Rom. 16:17 says, "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." They interpreted it to mean, shun anybody that disagrees with you or doesn't follow your policies. But actually, if you think about it, "them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine" describes TWI more than the people they kicked out. They are the ones causing the division, IMO. We should take note of it and avoid them.

As for what's current, I don't know much about what TWI does now under RR, but I do know that the thought patterns and practices started by VPW are still alive and kicking in many (though not all) of the offshoots. That's a big reason why it's important to point out these things. Too many people still view VPW as a revered saint, and I believe they have a right to know the truth about him.

You said, "I don't understand what's so healing about looking at the same experiences, no matter how bad, and continually facing them from the exact perspective each time." The healing is, firstly, in getting to the point where you can talk about it. It often takes years. Then, it's healing to share with others who have similar experiences, without being challenged and told they're just whining, or they brought it on themselves, or they're not telling the truth. Also, they find it healing to try to help others who may also be struggling with those past experiences. I don't think most of the posters here only want people who agree with them, but they don't want people who unfairly question the first hand testimonies of people who were hurt. (That's what had been happening with WD.)

[Linda Z]

My cousin Simon Z makes some excellent points. I'll add my 2 cents in bold.

Heavens-to-Betsy, No!...TWI coined that phrase a long time ago...Anybody at greasespot calls it 'mark and avoid' then we might have a lawsuit for plagierism on our hands...But then again, we have a whole legal department staff here that could probably straighten me out on that issue...Let's just call it 'boot' and not have any complications...Besides, Wierwille did enough plagierizing to write a book or five...

Don't forget to mention, Simon, that we also have a crew of able psychiatrists who can proclaim anyone with an unpopular opinion who doesn't express it diplomatically or apologetically enough as being in need of a shrink. If I were a Web site owner or moderator, such pronouncements about other posters' mental health status would be at the top of my list of "personal attacks." It happens in lots of other forums besides those of GS, I know, but that doesn't make it right.

Mark C: Yes, the words "mark and avoid" are in the verse you quote, but the phrase "mark and avoid," all by itself, became a new twi verb for getting rid of anyone who didn't follow the party line. TWI twisted the scriptures and turned the practice of shunning "troublemakers" into an art form. I do see a similarity with this recent, unrelenting clamor from the crowd to "boot the Wierwille apologists."

I'm not sure what this rings of, really---although, 'lynch mob', 'gang-tackling', 'dog pile' and 'screaming pack of vultures' are phrases that have come to mind...

A lynch mob is exactly what it's been sounding like around here. Honest to God, as I've read some of the posts over the past few days, I've gotten a chill up my spine, thinking any minute someone was going to throw a rope over the nearest tree limb and string up WD. That's what the atmosphere has been like on some of these threads.

Just to be perfectly clear, I do not share WD's view that the stories of VPW's abuse are unsubstantiated. I do understand how his relentless, stubborn "I need proof" stance gets very old. And I agree that his stating that position in the middle of someone's firsthand account of that abuse has been insensitive and ill-timed. However, instead of just saying, "WD, we get it. You need proof. We have sufficient proof to satisfy us" and leaving it at that, many people apparently feel the urge not only to argue with him unceasingly but to punish him, as well.

And Groucho, despite your protests that you only started this thread for the good of Greasespot, to rid this hallowed cafe of such evil influences as WD, the effect of this cry to "boot the Wierwille apologists" has started a feeding frenzy not unlike tossing a chunk of raw beef into the middle of a school of starving sharks. And I think you knew darn well it would have that effect. Instead of simply stating the facts, you have been known to use inflammatory language to make your points and to stir the pot--not only in "About the Way" but in the political discussions. That's been your style ever since GS opened (and on the sites that preceded it). Besides, if Paw actually booted the "Wierwille apologists," who would you have to disparage? You'd have no one left to criticize but the Republicans. How boring would that be?

I tried to go back and read a few threads and see what this is all about---what constitutes a 'Wierwille apologist' and frankly, or Shirley, I'm somewhat confused...One of the threads, titled 'losing the way', it seemed to start over whether we were all victims of mind control or not...The other, 'part two', was hard to tell because most of White Dove's, (or "WD" , the time-saving version, since he's been talked about so much on this thread,) were deleted...So I'm left with these last few threads we've had recently, like this one, where 'WD's' credentials and involvement with the way are demanded to be exposed, where courtroom-like arguments are made on whether or not we should believe everything we read on the internet---if it's first hand, that is,... where Groucho is pulling his best Chris Geer and exhorting us to get back to the original purpose of greasespot...I wondered aloud, here, on another thread, whether greasespot was an ex-way site or an anti-way site, and Groucho seems to have risen up here and answered on behalf of Pawtucket and the majority...

In fairness, I think it was WD who first brought up the legal issue, stating that firsthand accounts are no more than "opinions" and hearsay. I disagree with him that a firsthand account is a mere opinion and said so to him on here eons ago. I got raped when I was 20. I was scared to death to report it to the police because the guy turned out to be the leader of a violent, nasty motorcycle gang and I was afraid of what they would do to me. My failure to present myself as evidence of rape to the cops certainly didn't change the fact that I got raped into an "opinion."

WD has a right to his opinion, even if no one agrees with him. And I think there's a leap in logic taking place when his "I need proof" mantra gets interpreted as if he's saying, "You are a liar." To my recollection, he hasn't said that. I also haven't seen him "attacking victims"; I've just seen him being as stubborn as a rock in his demands for "proof."

Which is okay,---I like to know where people are coming from...If being a corpse grad (I'm sure somebody here could look that up on an old post somewhere if it helps settle an argument) and not heralding from the mountaintops, or at least from my quiet little cubbie-hole,...on my computer,...under an anonymous name,...the abuse and destruction of VP Wierwille's way international makes me a jagoff---well, I guess it's good to know that...You can't fit in every place..Which, I guess brings me to the question of "what is the purpose of greasespot?"...To expose the sick nature of the way?...Which way?...The current one, the old way or the old, old way?

VPW is certainly not a threat to anybody---he's been dead for over twenty years and the way doesn't even use his class any more...Martindale has been long fired...Haven't heard a lot about Rivenbark here and her abusive practices...In fact, I haven't heard much here at all about anything current about the way...There is a thread going on about Martindale in 1999---nine years ago...Is the way still grooming young women to 'service' the top leadership?...Or is this website more about our past?...It's been said here that greasespot is about recovering from being in an abusive cult...So was the guy who was yelled at by his branch leader for not stringing the chairs properly abused in the same manner as the girl who was lured into the motorcoach?...I guess in the about the way threads, when the subject of abuse comes up, which is most of the time, and the thread evolves into sexual abuse, which is nearly all of the time, only those in 'agreeance' with the greasespot concensus should continue on....

I have no problem with people who were abused by VPW (or anyone else) saying so, as loudly and as often as they like, if doing that helps them in any way. However, I've noticed over the years that some of the people yelling the most often and the loudest are people who weren't themselves abused by VPW and didn't see him abusing anyone. In fact, some of them got involved in twi after he was dead or never even met the man.

Something I find ironic is that one of the people who has shared her firsthand testimony of VPW's abuse has been far more gracious to WD (and others whose opinions are in the minority) than anyone else. I'm talking about my friend excathedra. We could all learn a big lesson in kindness and compassion and grace and, yeah, maybe mercy, from her. (One of the many reasons I love you, Exsie!!)

And I agree, Simon. If we're supposed to be so anti-twi around here, why not put a little effort into exposing the twi of today? I know they play it pretty close to the vest, but we've got some smart, resourceful people around here who could get on the case. I have a hunch that a lot could be rooted out about the current organization and its current "leaders." Now that I think about it, they must absolutely LOVE the GS obsession with a dead guy, because as long as everyone's focused on talking about him, it keeps the heat off them, bigtime.

People don't need to have a good reason to hang out with eachother if they enjoy each other's company---whether in the real world or in the cyber-world...If you only want ex-way people here that think of TWI as a mind-controlling, abusive cult, then kick the rest of the jagoffs out...No reason to hang out with people you don't want to...'Tho, I will say, I don't understand what's so healing about looking at the same experiences, no matter how bad, and continually facing them from the exact perspective each time....

I agree, Simon. If I'm not welcome here because my own personal mission is not so much to bring an "anti-twi" message to these threads as to reconnect with old friends and have discussions with people I have something in common with, I think Paw would have said so by now. He hasn't though. I don't see him jumping on the "boot the Wierwille apologists" bandwagon. When Simon asked Paw (back during the Bumpy controversy) whether Groucho was right in stating that this is an "anti-twi" Web site rather than an ex-way Web site, Paw responded by saying something like "the mission hasn't changed." I interpreted that to mean that although this place is for telling "the other side of the story," that differing opinions are still welcome and that we're allowed to talk about other topics besides what an evil SOB VPW was.

It's been said before by several people, but it's obviously gone unheeded, that WD couldn't have these interminable arguments if he didn't have anyone to argue with. Why not ignore him on the subject of VPW's abuse and talk to him about dogs. Or talk to him about music. And when he interjects his "I need proof" into a discussion, why not just say, "I've heard you say that a hundred times and I still disagree," rather than putting on the boxing gloves and going at it with him one more time for dozens of pages? Just a thought.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Linda Z

[Rocky]

Thus, Seth the Lored.

[sealed]

I find it ironic how many of you decrying poor wd`s treatment ever came to my aid or anybody elses when good old dove was leading the lynch mob with his buddies...Hell a few of you jumped right on the band wagon with a few well placed kicks of your own when he had folks down.

It would seem that ones level of outrage is directly determined by how much you dislike the view point of the poster under attack.

I haven`t seen anything here that comes close to what he and his buddies did when ganging up and smacking down posters.

He called us all KINDS of names, liars, exaggerators, whiners and complainers....denied the teachings that were used to facilitate the evil....accused us of horrible things...gleefully sided with any who were willing to smack down a poster he didn`t like when they pronounced us insane or a danger to ourselves and our children....He trolled the forums constantly with no other purpose than to discredit particular posters.....sometimes posting nothing to do with the topic at hand but simply to jeer and insult\....hi fiving his buddies for doing the same. He was a viscious bully.

But hey...I guess this isn`t such a big deal because you really didn`t like the posters he targeted anyway..right??

The rules have tightened to the point now where there are only a couple left that bother to try to find loop holes to continue their relentless campaign of harassment.....Now that he isn`t allowed to stalk, to bait, to insult, to deride and attempt to discredit...he has found yet another way to disrupt within the parameter of the rules ...I guess that people, the majority of the forums have had enough of this deliberate and disruptive behavior.

It just really sucks and to me completely negates ones claims of neutrality or fairness when you would come to the defense of a guy that has been so hurtful after all of these years of ignoring his campaign to discredit and surpress any poster who`s experience that doesn`t paint twi in a positive light.

Edited to add: This is rascal (if you couldn`t tell already :) btw.

Edited July 18, 2008 by sealed