Boot the Wierwille apologists

[Mark Clarke]

I can't get through this whole thing. I skipped ahead six or seven pages. Tell me if I missed anything really important.

Lucy, in answer to your question(s), at least as best I can, it was at an all ladies' meeting (and only one person was referred to). Did I think it was bizarre? I ran away, left and went to the bathroom, and that's where Dot came in. We had a "WTF" conversation, but FOR ME, I think I was rationalizing bigtime -- like maybe trying to convince myself some spiritual message was in there -- I know how gross and what a joke. I have no explanation. Maybe because I was a victim of incest. Maybe because I didn't have proper boundaries. Maybe because I was just totally F'd up. I don't think I thought about shouting anything out to the rooftops, but, at that time, it wasn't because I didn't care about people. I think it was more because of my trying to convince myself that there was some kind of a message there. I really don't know, NOW.

Today, of course, would be a very very different story.

It's like when he counseled me and told me that God wanted to teach me true healing in that area (since he knew about my past abuse). I tried to "buy" it, but there was some kind of a struggle always going on inside me.

I'm going on and on, but I don't know the real reason why. I know I'm ashamed, disgusted, angry, and, if I had to do it all over again, I would handle it differently, but now I have a different "brain" if you will.

More later maybe when I can put into words what I'm trying to say.

Also, I am very very sorry, beyond words, about what happened to you. I understand and can relate.

Children should be guarded, protected, cherished, loved.... I just wish he had understood that.

Later.

Excie,

I understand why you didn't say anything. It is the same reason we didn't say anything if we saw something different in the Bible than what Official Way Doctrine taught. We were taught to think that if you don't see what they see, you're just not spiritual enough, you're not mature enough, or you just don't "get it." Part of the way they taught this mindset was by making an example of the few that did speak up. The sudden disappearance of them, with whispers of, "You remember her... she got possessed when she considered someone's lie about Doctor."

I didn't suffer the abuse you and others did, but I remember thinking things were wrong with certain doctrinal logic, but figuring I just didn't understand. Rather than be kicked out of God's Household, I held my tongue and waited till I grew up and understood better. And I believe many in your case probably thought in a similar way. It's like the old story of the Emperor's New Clothes. People could see he was naked, but were afraid to speak up because they were told that only people who were stupid and unfit for their jobs couldn't see the clothes. It took a child who had nothing to lose to speak up and call attention to the truth. Thanks for being one of the "children" who spoke up and said, "But he has nothing on!"

This is why it's so important for people who experienced things to speak up about it. The argument has never been about legal rights in a court of law, IMO. It's been about speaking up for the truth of what happened.

[Belle]

I ask again:

WERE you a WOW?

WERE you in the Corps?

WERE you at HQ?

WHAT IS your basis of knowledge about these matters?

Dooj and Tom, while I appreciate what you're saying (linking to) - I'd like to see all these questions answered by Dove - including how much "face to face" time Dove had with vee pee and how he is any more qualified to make comments than anyone else. How, especially, he considers himself knowledgeable enough to refute those who post their personal experiences. :)

He has plenty of time to spend bashing people in these booths, surely he can take just a few moments to answer these simple, straightforward questions. I don't need, nor want, a dissertation - just a few easy answers.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Belle

[Mark Clarke]

Dooj and Tom, while I appreciate what you're saying (linking to) - I'd like to see all these questions answered by Dove - including how much "face to face" time Dove had with vee pee and how he is any more qualified to make comments than anyone else. How, especially, he considers himself knowledgeable enough to refute those who post their personal experiences. :)

Does he say that? I thought he was claiming that "there is not enough evidence to make a judgment either way." (Not that I agree with him, mind you.)

[doojable]

Dooj and Tom, while I appreciate what you're saying (linking to) - I'd like to see all these questions answered by Dove - including how much "face to face" time Dove had with vee pee and how he is any more qualified to make comments than anyone else. How, especially, he considers himself knowledgeable enough to refute those who post their personal experiences. :)

He has plenty of time to spend bashing people in these booths, surely he can take just a few moments to answer these simple, straightforward questions. I don't need, nor want, a dissertation - just a few easy answers.

I wasn't aware that he claimed to ever had had any special qualifications or that he had special knowledge allowing him to refute personal testimonies. He's been belligerent on the point of wanting statements to be proven - but I have not seen any claim of superiority. Perhaps I missed that.

He was asked three questions. He challenged a poster on her answers, asking if she got that information from him or someone else. I merely supplied a post where he did indeed say that he was Spouse Corps.

Besides, what difference does it make? It's already been shown repeatedly that his demands for proof are nothing more than harassment.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the purpose of this?

Edited July 16, 2008 by doojable

[rascal]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the purpose of this?

Yup...there is a lot more going on here ... and unless you personally have been the target of his relentless stalking, of his malicious attacks questioning everything from your sanity to your veracity to your character and motives....claiming that what happened to you and what was taught to sanction the evil and the other insane cruelty that we lived never really happened because those of us that tell any type of abuse stories are simply the product one would expect of perpetually whining victims ......I`m betting that you probably WON`T get it.

Please believe that Dove is finally reaping what he has sown. People when they realize that he wasn`t even there to be able to deny that these doctrines were enforced or the teachings that facilitated the cruelty was taught....he loses all credibility to harass the posters sharing their stories.

Edited July 16, 2008 by rascal

[cman]

It's already been shown repeatedly that his demands for proof are nothing more than harassment.

yeah, not so clever is he

i read all his posts

it was a planned attack from the beginning

always challenging people's actual experiences

almost 140 pages of manipulation tactics

poor plan and execution

it only proves how sick vp and his doctrine and practice is

doctrine and practice can't be separated

when you see what the doctrine really is

the practice is self evident

[now I see]

If he's such a stalker, we should ban him outright.

If we don't end up banning him, then he should be limited to certain forums to read only and not allowed to post in the Open forum, or About the Way, Radio, Decaf, 101, Archive, Doctrinal, My Story and Soap Opera.

If he is stalking and lacks credibility and self controll we have no other recourse.

[Belle]

Yup...there is a lot more going on here ... and unless you personally have been the target of his relentless stalking, of his malicious attacks questioning everything from your sanity to your veracity to your character and motives....claiming that what happened to you and what was taught to sanction the evil and the other insane cruelty that we lived never really happened because those of us that tell any type of abuse stories are simply the product one would expect of perpetually whining victims ......I`m betting that you probably WON`T get it.

Please believe that Dove is finally reaping what he has sown. People when they realize that he wasn`t even there to be able to deny that these doctrines were enforced or the teachings that facilitated the cruelty was taught....he loses all credibility to harass the posters sharing their stories.

I don't think I can say it any better than Rascal has.

I'd like to see Dove explain why he has more or better knowledge of what these people experienced to be in a position to refute what they are sharing.

I very much enjoy chatting with Dove on other subjects and he has even sent me some things via snail mail that I really appreciate, but when it comes to the subject of abuse at the hands of leadership and others within TWI - including some other situations - I'd like to know what authority he has that makes him think he knows better than those with first hand experience what really happened or what was "really" taught.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

yeah, not so clever is he

i read all his posts

it was a planned attack from the beginning

always challenging people's actual experiences

and that exactly why I started this thread!

It was time that someone called bullsh *t on this guy!...enough is enough!

pull his plug!...send him to twig fellowship...

[doojable]

I agree that his behavior towards those telling their stories has been reprehensible.

For the record - I posted a link to a post when he admitted he was spouse corps because he was playing games with Rascal and implying that she knew some things by second hand knowledge. I wasn't replying to Belle, Mark or anyone else. I was letting WD's own post speak for him.

I saw it as a way of making him eat his words.

[skyrider]

I agree that his behavior towards those telling their stories has been reprehensible.

For the record - I posted a link to a post when he admitted he was spouse corps because he was playing games with Rascal and implying that she knew some things by second hand knowledge. I wasn't replying to Belle, Mark or anyone else. I was letting WD's own post speak for him.

I saw it as a way of making him eat his words.

Yeah.......and whitedove has displayed this same behavior on my "Corps Indoctrination" threads, relentlessly attacking my perspective, my experiences. As many here know, I challenged him several time on his qualifications and first-hand knowledge......but always, he side-steps my direct questions with more drivel.

His m.o. is always the same..........a barrage of bullsheet.

Someone in Kansas called him out once.......confronting him and openly stated that he'd never gone wow, never went thru the corps program, never left his area. What did wd say to all this??????....................nothing but silence.

He seems to have VERY LITTLE FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE OF TWI LEADERSHIP, OF PROGRAMS......except going to emporia campus and bumping into uncle harry and a few others on a work day.

<_<

[Mark Clarke]

Here in video is the Thread Quick Review--

No it isn't.

...This is:

[RumRunner]

This is a father and son relationship that makes TWI look sick

[1 john 3:1]

They have been a disruptive force long enough...this is a privately owned website and not a democracy...and I personally believe that it would be a great idea if Paw decided to get rid of those who constantly disrupt threads, belittle the victims of Wierwille, defend Wierwille, and generally go against the mission of the GSC.

I question their agenda and why they are here...this is not a question of honest debates and differing opinions...this is a deliberate attempt by certain people to shut down threads with their pro-Wierwille rhetoric.

I say it's time to boot them out!

Ummm does this ring loudly of "mark and avoid". Have we come full circle?

[Mark Clarke]

This is a father and son relationship that makes TWI look sick

That doesn't take much!

[dmiller]

Ummm does this ring loudly of "mark and avoid". Have we come full circle?

At first I tended to think so also --- however Groucho brought up a valid point.

We (the GSC community) have NO objection to opposing viewpoints aired here.

The objection is to the personal attacks, doubts, etc. that have occurred

ALL TOO FREQUENTLY when some decide to bare their soul, and tell their story.

Suddenly they are in the *Hot Seat*, and the burden of proof is on them

for a personal experience that they went through, and someone else doubts it.

We owe the doubters NOTHING.

When posting negative aspirations against those who tell their story ---

for the common good of others who were in the same (or similar) situations,

they breed contempt, doubt, and wild speculation against those who have spoken.

M & A??? No. Not by a LONGGGGGG shot. Getting rid of a cancerous growth??

Yea -- you betcha. If M & A were the order of the day here --- you wouldn't see

all the threads about pfal there in the doctrinal section.

Paw has been more than kind and tolerant of all here (myself included).

Somehow I'm thinking it's time to *thin the herd*.

When a person (male or female) calls into question a personal testimony made by another,

and DEMANDS proof, names, dates, etc. --- I've 4 words for that poster:

HIT THE ROAD -- JACK!!!

[Tom Strange]

Ummm does this ring loudly of "mark and avoid". Have we come full circle?

Comparing this to "mark and avoid" is the droppings of the bull as well...

there is no comparison...

this is telling someone that "we" are tired of his krap... TWIs mark and avoid was entirely different...

and you know it...

[dmiller]

Mark and Avoid (from twi) was a direct result of YOU, not following THEIR edicts.

(If you don't realize that -- I'm just blowing smoke here.) :(

This board (while endeavoring to tell the other side of the story),

welcomes opposing viewpoints, along with what actually happened.

If you question that ---I feel sorry for you, and wish you well.

If you don't get it now, You never will.

[WordWolf]

Ummm does this ring loudly of "mark and avoid".

No, it does not.

Have we come full circle?

No, we have not.

Glad I could straighten that out for you.

=============

I take it you're unfamiliar with messageboards outside the GSC.

Virtually all messageboards, and virtually all organizations, no matter how inclusive,

have policies and procedures for ejecting someone from the room, or dismissing them from

the organization. That's necessary, because eventually, someone will engage in disruptive

behaviour, either in a small way, or in a large way.

Messageboards with NO such policies either are chaotic free-for-alls where insults and noise

are the order of the day (compared to them, this is afternoon tea with nobles),

or are abandoned entirely by the posters, as they become overrun with trolls.

The differences are in where you draw the line.

If you use enforcement when someone is being DISRUPTIVE, then you're inclusionary.

If you use enforcement when someone asks questions (without using them as an excuse to be disruptive),

then you're exclusionary, like twi.

The GSC allows for discussion of virtually any topic, with virtually any position,

so long as the post is polite and CIVIL.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

...Even a bar has bouncers to toss out the trouble makers...

[mstar1]

...Even a bar has bouncers to toss out the trouble makers...

No smoking in the theater...you cant just make up your own rules wherever you go

The RULES here are very very simple.

You dont exactly have to be Einstein to understand them

.. please be courteous to fellow posters..... Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own...... Please don't make it personal....

... harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums....

Pawtucket and the moderaators have bent over backwards to give people the benefit of a doubt on this, but long term patterns of harrassment, stalking and abuse benefit no one.

This is a public message board, not a religious organization

Edited July 17, 2008 by mstar1

[now I see]

Even a classroom teacher has rules.

I too post on other web boards where the fights break out on a regular basis, because they are for profit websites that's when the mods go into action, in order to keep the contributing posters from going to another web board, most moderators will give time outs and ban destructive thread chasers immediately.  

Because we're different here, this board has been way over on the softer side of doing this, if Paw decides to get tougher, it will be a good move, he certainly has many here interested in seeing it happen....maybe its time for a poll....?

edited for clarity..

Edited July 17, 2008 by now I see

[Dot Matrix]

OMG

I never realized that WD never went WOW, worked limb staff or any FIRST HAND program. Corps spouse is nice but it is kinda like a 2nd hand program (no offense to Rascal) whereby you tap into the spouses corps training.

Geez, and he gets on here and DOUBTS our stories because he knew Steve Sands or the like... Isn't that 2nd hand information?

OMG, and we gave credence to his opinion allowing it to derail threads and disturb flow for years?

And all this legal talk? He is not a lawyer either.

And even if he were, how many guilty people go free and innocent are in jail the court system is deeply flawed.

His arguments are troll like in nature and circular in execution.

Sorry WD, you were a nice guy when you came here, but progressively became more brick headed, blind, and have lost the ability to go down any other track than the the one you are on - and that track is deeply flawed and not in the least bit compelling. Gosh, just stop it already. You have brought this upon yourself by your troll like appetite which feeds upon the emotionally lame, vulnerable or once injured.

[mstar1]

maybe its time for a poll....?

Maybe..Paws job is pretty tough, and he does an exemplary job at it...

I think its interesting that WD stirred up x amount of threads here--evaded the issues, got people onto his legal and constitutional foolishness, --Then conveniently 'left town' to work with "Bob Dylan' <_< when he got asked some pointed questions

Id keep him around solely for the humor sake--it reminds me of watching Barney Fife

If only he wasnt so disruptive, and vicious to victims of Wierwilles onslaughts--for that its amazing that he is still here in the first place. I think the stalking at the least merits serious review... to me its a serious breech...and hinders too many posters from posting first hand experiences...that should be and need to be heard.....but its not my decision.

If a poll would help--Im all for it

[now I see]

Maybe its time for a poll on GS's take on WD....

More moderation takes more time and there should be compensation for that via more advertizing, donations, or registration fees.  This website is one of a kind, our contributing posters wouldn't go anywhere else if they were disturbed and frustrated with the board, they would simply stop posting, which we've already seen here.