Boot the Wierwille apologists

[WhiteDove]

Abby, I am speaking of the guys who never left their area...never went wow, never were in the corpes never interacted with wierwille on a personal basis.

There are others here whom have seen wierwille who know of his vile behavior but chose to interpret the actions differently.

Both types would rather assasinate the character and veracity of the person who`s experience is living in your face proof that we might have been wrong or decieved.

Find a way to blame the victims and then one isn`t forced to examine ones own guilt or faults, one isn`t forced to humble themselves and begin fresh with a clean slate and build a healthy understanding and belief system.

One can then remain arrogant and complacent knowing that they are the super believers of this day and age and that their knowledge makes it acceptible to dang on anybody or anything that threatens their perception.

What they do is delberate, hurtful, unkind, and cruel ... behaviors one does not expect of a proclaimed christian...but in twi defenders acceptable. Their beliefs are toxic and harmful, I don`t care what they believe...but when they use that belief as justification and excuse to hurt another...I am sick of it. I am sick of being on the recieving end, I am sick of seeing topics derailed, I am sick of information deliberately buried ..and most of all I am sick of seeing people hurt in the name of a belief or an ideal.

The again one could be a WOW in Jerkwater USA for 30 years and not have a clue what is going on either. This is the information age.. For instance I don't need to be in Nashville to know that it is 85 degrees with a wind from the NE at 12 mph with the visibility 10.0 miles and the traffic flowing nicely out by Stewarts Ferry right now. Why all you need to do is ring someone up and get all that first hand testimony about what is going on any minute of the day.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I'm glad I started this thread...It was time for the GSC community to discuss their thoughts on the topic of this thread...I think it's important and I am hopeful that there will be some improvements in certain regards.

Some of you may think that I'm a bit rough around the edges...perhaps a bit caustic at times...well, I am. :)

I have strong feelings about what this place is about and what we are doing here...Maybe I had to come out swinging a hatchet (boot the Wierwille apologists) in order for a "middle ground" to be honestly discussed. I appreciate the diversity of opinions here and am all in favor of honest debate and discussion...it would be boring if we all had the same opinion....However, I think it's the right thing to do to protect people telling their stories without detractors...

[rascal]

A phone call??? A freakin PHONE call?? But then THAT would be heresay from a nameless faceless source, isn`t it?

Dove, you never left your area. You never went through the corpes program or the wow program. You were never a child subjected to the horrors of physical and sexual abuse, nor a woman, nor subjected to the indignities of a woman that was the object of a mog`s desires or pregnant while involved in any of these programs.

You never were subjected to the pressures or requirements, or deeper spiritual truths for those whom were considered *spiritually mature enough to handle it*

Hells bells, MOST of us had the same experiences as you when we were in our local areas in our friendly little fellowships. This and this alone is the only thing that you personally are actually QUALIFIED to comment on ...the catagories pertaining to you personally in your immediate area.....for you to presume to comment on anything else in twi is speculation, accusations and out and out lies. Pretty rich for you to try to hold anyone else to the letter of the law.

For YOU sir in your extremely limited exposure.... to presume to tell us whom experienced the darkness...that the sun shone out of vp`s every orface, for you to presume to speak with any amount of credibility concerning wow, way corpes, child abuse, forced abortions, destroyed marriages, rapes, suicides, and the rest of the cruelty that the REST of us actually experienced...For you to think that you have ANY idea what the REAL ministry was like outside of your personal experiences in your little town is rediculous beyond all reason..and to think that your pov has credibility when measured against the rest of us whom actually experienced these horrors is preposterous.

For you Dove, in your extremely limited exposure to vpw, to twi`s top leadership and to twi`s policies for most of the ministry ..to presume to speak with ANY kind of authority as to what the REAL twi is/wascan be neither a realistic or even remotely accurate account....especially when you have eye witness first hand accounts from the victims of the policies, from the families who witnessed the abuses, from the leaders whom were aware...all here giving testimoney to counter your limited experience.

You speak of that which you have no knowledge. Your credibility to comment on these things is zero.

Edited July 14, 2008 by rascal

[now I see]

I'm glad you started this thread too Groucho, you took a lot of heat sticking your neck out like this, from posters questioning your motivation to assigning character faults to you, just for posting your opinion concerning protecting the rights of all posters.  Great thread!

[WhiteDove]

Dove, you never left your area. You never went through the corpes program or the wow program. You were never a woman, nor subjected to the indignities of a woman that was the object of a mog`s desires or pregnant while involved in any of these programs.

You never were subjected to the pressures or requirements, or deeper spiritual truths for those whom were considered *spiritually mature enough to handle it*

Most of us had the same experiences as you when we were in our local areas in our friendly little fellowships. You are only qualified to comment on those catagories pertaining to you personally in your area.....for you to presume to comment on anything else in twi is speculation, accusations and out and out lies.

It is rediculous beyond all reason for you to think that you have any idea what the real ministry outside of your experiences in your little town was like....shrug

Not at all , all one needed to do is be in contasct with those who were in the know, you assume that one needs to be in a place to be in the know they don't. You assume way to much for not knowing me

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Dove, you never left your area. You never went through the corpes program or the wow program.

Holy Moly!...Are telling me that Whitedove was never in the corps, never went wow and never left his area???

ROFLMAO!...

He really IS clueless!...and you cause all this commotion and you have no idea what you're talking about?...You're a man with a paper arse.

[now I see]

Gee...I really would love to gloat here and do another WD is owned post....but I fear it would send him over the edge....so I won't....but after all he's put us through.. he really would deserve it.....  

[rascal]

Yup Groucho.....Dove gets ALL his info from 2nd hand sources :)

Our first hand accounts mean nothing when they counter that which he wishes to believe.

[Abigail]

I am speechless

[WhiteDove]

Yup Groucho.....Dove gets ALL his info from 2nd hand sources :)

Our first hand accounts mean nothing when they counter that which he wishes to believe.

You have no clue what my sources are you only think you do.

[tonto]

Not at all , all one needed to do is be in contasct with those who were in the know, you assume that one needs to be in a place to be in the know they don't.

In contact with those who were in the know, WD???

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[rascal]

You have no clue what my sources are you only think you do.

Dove, the only thing that I THINK that I know, (and please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is that you never went through the wow or way corpes program, and that you spent your time in twi in the same geographic area.

This information I gathered from your own personal public posts here. I do not presume to know anything about you outside of what you yourself personally chose to share here.

Edited July 14, 2008 by rascal

[GrouchoMarxJr]

You have no clue what my sources are you only think you do.

OMG!...You're killin' me!...I don't care WHO your "source" is...you have no credibility...none at all... you're a messenger boy...

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

To Janis Lang aka Lucy Van Pelt: Honey, you along with Oldiesman(Phil), Rocky, White Dove, Mike are the ones suffering from Bi-Polar/mania depressed and are not racing reality. I am sorry that your brother raped you and that you blame your parents for not protecting you nor having your brother arrested and treated as an adult pedophile(even if he was younger than 18) sent to criminal court and charged, yet you claim your father would have had the Ohio and Federal Government press charges against Wierwille, Martindale, and Geer(plus Donna and Rosie) had VPW even laid hands on you(maybe even murder them). Even asking God to murder your brother is sick and evil. Yet you claim to have eventually forgiven him. Janis, if you do not publicly ask Dot, Rascal, Excathedra here in this forum to forgive your outburst, you will be enjoying my ignore list.As for Bumpy/Grumpy from Paris/Algeria, you never were offensive to me.

[Rocky]

Holy Moly!...Are telling me that Whitedove was never in the corps, never went wow and never left his area???

ROFLMAO!...

He really IS clueless!...and you cause all this commotion and you have no idea what you're talking about?...You're a man with a paper arse.

It would seem to me that the only one who could say whether WD had been in the WC or not is WD...

This is NOT first hand testimony.

Let's get (regain) some perspective here friends.

To Janis Lang aka Lucy Van Pelt: Honey, you along with Oldiesman(Phil), Rocky, White Dove, Mike are the ones suffering from Bi-Polar/mania depressed and are not racing reality. I am sorry that your brother raped you and that you blame your parents for not protecting you nor having your brother arrested and treated as an adult pedophile(even if he was younger than 18) sent to criminal court and charged, yet you claim your father would have had the Ohio and Federal Government press charges against Wierwille, Martindale, and Geer(plus Donna and Rosie) had VPW even laid hands on you(maybe even murder them). Even asking God to murder your brother is sick and evil. Yet you claim to have eventually forgiven him. Janis, if you do not publicly ask Dot, Rascal, Excathedra here in this forum to forgive your outburst, you will be enjoying my ignore list.As for Bumpy/Grumpy from Paris/Algeria, you never were offensive to me.

Look, I don't know you from Adam (or Eve)... And it's quite obvious you don't know me. It's also obvious you don't READ many posts here. But you've been corrected more than once on where I stand regarding wierwille. STOP it.

Or would you just rather we all have the impression that you are a moron?

[Mark Clarke]

You have no clue what my sources are you only think you do.

Then correct them if they are wrong.

WERE you a WOW?

WERE you in the Corps?

WERE you at HQ?

WHAT IS your basis of knowledge about these matters?

[T-Bone]

Groucho, thanks for starting this thread. It’s kind of sad to watch an apologist finally put all his cards on the table and then deny he’s been bluffing all along. As always, a sobering experience to follow closely a thread like this – reminding me of the blind allegiance I once held.

[HAPe4me]

Cmon Rocky, don't they need 4 to make a twig? Can't you just this once accomodate Thomas Loy's fantasy? Seriously Thomas, get a grip, we have covered this before with you!

~HAP

[rascal]

Rocky, it was indeed wd himself that shared that info on a thread a while back.

[Kit Sober]

Dead people are accorded no legal rights in the USA.

Legally a dead person is a "body" or "remains" and a body has no legal rights.

The estate of the deceased has legal rights and responsibilities, and is considered a separate legal entity.

The heirs have some legal rights as well.

But the dead body has absolutely no legal rights.

One can not libel a dead body

One can not slander a dead body.

One can not falsely accuse a dead body of any crime.

A dead body does not qualify for the legal protections of due process or innocent until proven guilty.

I'll say it again, dead people have no legal rights in the US criminal justice system.

However, it's possible that the estate could sue, but I would assume that the estate has been settled by now.

The heirs could sue, but they, not the women, would be charged with the burden of proof.

In essence, they would have to prove that the sexual abuse didn't happen, and that the women are lying.

And, they would lose, because it's next to impossible to prove a negative.

This should have put a silence to the court-of-law defense. bfh's succinct statements explain why so many people can write all kinds of trash about deceased people with impunity. And that is not happening here. People are only telling their side of the story.

I fail to see what leg WD is standing upon to keep bringing up court-of-law.

[Rocky]

Cmon Rocky, don't they need 4 to make a twig? Can't you just this once accomodate Thomas Loy's fantasy? Seriously Thomas, get a grip, we have covered this before with you!

~HAP

Thanks for the humor Hap!

However, in a PM, Bumgarner told me he has had me on ignore, along with those others... so, apparently he's making that statement without even reading things that ANY of those he named had posted.

[WhiteDove]

This should have put a silence to the court-of-law defense. bfh's succinct statements explain why so many people can write all kinds of trash about deceased people with impunity. And that is not happening here. People are only telling their side of the story.

I fail to see what leg WD is standing upon to keep bringing up court-of-law.

Well I have a couple of legs I stand on............. but then there is this as well

Idaho

Libeling either the living or the dead is a crime. Idaho Code § 18-4801 (2005).

Colorado

“(1) A person who shall knowingly publish or disseminate, either by written instrument, sign, pictures, or the like, any statement or object tending to blacken the memory of one who is dead, or to impeach the honesty, integrity, virtue, or reputation or expose the natural defects of one who is alive, and thereby to expose him to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule, commits criminal libel.

Kansas

“(a) Criminal defamation is communicating to a person orally, in writing, or by any other means, information, tending to expose another living person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; tending to deprive such person of the benefits of public confidence and social acceptance; or tending to degrade and vilify the memory of one who is dead and to scandalize or provoke surviving relatives and friends.

Thanks for the humor Hap!

However, in a PM, Bumgarner told me he has had me on ignore, along with those others... so, apparently he's making that statement without even reading things that ANY of those he named had posted.

HEY Thomas

Rocky is not a Wierwille apologist........

From one who might know ........

Well at least some people think so...........

Edited July 15, 2008 by WhiteDove

[WhiteDove]

Dove, the only thing that I THINK that I know, (and please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is that you never went through the wow or way corpes program, and that you spent your time in twi in the same geographic area.

This information I gathered from your own personal public posts here. I do not presume to know anything about you outside of what you yourself personally chose to share here.

Really? is that your story and your sticking to it? Because I thought you learned it from another poster?

[Rocky]

Idaho

Libeling either the living or the dead is a crime. Idaho Code § 18-4801 (2005).

Colorado

"(1) A person who shall knowingly publish or disseminate, either by written instrument, sign, pictures, or the like, any statement or object tending to blacken the memory of one who is dead, or to impeach the honesty, integrity, virtue, or reputation or expose the natural defects of one who is alive, and thereby to expose him to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule, commits criminal libel.

Kansas

"(a) Criminal defamation is communicating to a person orally, in writing, or by any other means, information, tending to expose another living person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; tending to deprive such person of the benefits of public confidence and social acceptance; or tending to degrade and vilify the memory of one who is dead and to scandalize or provoke surviving relatives and friends.

Have you contacted state's attorneys in Idaho, Colorado and Kansas to let them know you have some folks for them to prosecute?

Or do you have some other plan to see to it that these "criminals" (here at GSC) are brought to justice?

[dmiller]

Idaho

Libeling either the living or the dead is a crime. Idaho Code § 18-4801 (2005).

Colorado

“(1) A person who shall knowingly publish or disseminate, either by written instrument, sign, pictures, or the like, any statement or object tending to blacken the memory of one who is dead, or to impeach the honesty, integrity, virtue, or reputation or expose the natural defects of one who is alive, and thereby to expose him to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule, commits criminal libel.

Kansas

“(a) Criminal defamation is communicating to a person orally, in writing, or by any other means, information, tending to expose another living person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; tending to deprive such person of the benefits of public confidence and social acceptance; or tending to degrade and vilify the memory of one who is dead and to scandalize or provoke surviving relatives and friends.

Shucks, I know this whole court thing is way off topic, but since we're here ----- >>>

I'd like to know --- since when is telling a *ginosko* experience libeling??

Eh???