He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
I blew up at Dot after she attacked me. I didn't hit first, I hit her back. Fights' over. I am not mad.
You told me I was as responsible as the molester VPW, I had never even spoken to you before. Again another fabrication from pretty "Lucy" using her real (Sarcasm intended) name. Pretty Lucy, as we can see in your lovely photo, when I responded to your mean accusatory post in kind, you got offended. Funny, how you get offended so easily but do not see how you offend others (Also a characteristic of bi-polar disorder. Honey, we are fighting with your chemicals. Get help. Do what Belle said and print this out and give it to your Doctor. I am not kidding about this or using it as fuel, you really need to seek help)
You wrote:
Please don't take this the wrong way, but Dot Matrix and Excathedra and other "Corps" heard VP say he was being inappropriate with daughters?
You had to be in residence before me, I was 14th I am DFAC. Which I call it, Done Farting Around with Carnals.
I am kinda mad at you ladies. A lot of people would have been saved the hurt and agony had you gone screaming from the room and told on him.There are no excuses in my opinion for allowing that kind of behavior on any level.
So I would very much appreciate an explanation as to why you didn't say something. And please no rationalizations either. I would have run my mouth til they shot me dead. I am a survivor, I had to endure being raped, beaten up, choked, shot at, by an earthly brother for years. I told on him, it didn't stop him, but when I told God to kill him, it finally ended. June 26, 1976 that pig suffered a slow horrible death and died. Only within the past couple of years have I been able to forgive him and let it go.
So why didn't you tell somebody? Anybody?
I find it suspect at best that all the accusations of VP and others only come out after they are dead. I think that is what most opposers have a problem with, if it happened, and I can't say it didn't, I wasn't there, why in the hell did you not speak up???????????? To me, it makes you just as responsible as the molester. You allowed it.
After reading this topic from beginning to now, this is the question that keeps popping up. IMHO, it never had to get as far as it did.
There is no politically correct way to ask this, but it does deserve some thought and an honest answer.
As far as I'm concerned, Lucyvanpelt, whether you also go by Grumpy, or Bumpy, whatever you are calling yourself today, this will be the test of what the mods will do to a flagrant flamebaiter, poser and troll.
Good luck in future postings, I am very interested in seeing how the mods will treat you.
This is also a good test on how the whole of the contributing posters of the GS community can deal with a trolling flamebaiter effectively.
The ignore option is my favorite, this poster has already used up 2 or 3 pages of this important thread by derailing it into a personal attack via flame baiting, we shouldn't let it continue any longer.
How screwed up does a person have to be to spend so much of their time on a web board fabricating and reincarnating themselves, and flaming posters in such a passive agressive fashion?
This person does need the serious kind of help we cannot possibly provide. So sad.
These women who tell their stories are credible and honest. How can you blame THEM for the future actions of the abuser? VP was a pig--pure and simple--
these women were victims of his twisted mind. If you are a victim yourself---empathy is an appropriate response. VP fondled and grabbed enough women
without raping them that many could have confronted him. Why is it you hold the victims of the worse of his abuse accountable. Heck, that man grabbed people
he didn't even know well, in a crowded room no less-with a creepy eye patch on. Anyone could have said to him it was wrong---called the authorities and turned
him in for harrasment. You are going to have to blame a whole bunch more if it is the fault of the victim. The more comfortable they are --these pigs---the bolder
they are.
I wish I could stick around and watch this conversation. Something is NOT right here.
The leader of the group hated churches. He hated religion in general, except his own brand of Christianity which taught you could basically commit any sin you wanted so long as you prayed about it and quoted Scripture. That was his definition of grace – playing God for a fool.
Well, like the Scripture says “Be not deceived, God will not be mocked. For what a man soweth , that also shall he reap.”
That was a quote from Kristen Skeg&ls blog, describing twi's twisted culture and doctrine.
Are we just going to sit here and allow another troll flamebaiter poster to do the same to us today and play us for a fool, while mocking us as they write lying words in order to harass the true victims and pull another fast one on the contributing GS posters? I say not, let's not let this one disrupt another thread and use our sense of fair play against us, our good will shouldn't be looked upon as weakness, we have tolerated quite enough victim harassers here lately.
It isn't that questions were asked, it is HOW they were asked. People can have a tiny bit of respect and if they can't, then perhaps they need to refrain from hitting the "send" button.
The idea is if a poster has a question and states it and it goes against the governing leaders position (the victims) it is NOT ever allowed. right ?
it is considered harrasment and to be AVOIDED as in marked and avoided as a bad bad poster.
Position on issues is one thing, hurting someone more who is already hurting is another. I think that is why some things are not allowed.
Someone asking a question may not even be trying to hurt.
In many cases we are handles to each other. It is hard to imagine a handle hurting. Until we do our best to realize there are real people behind these handles.
I am in a critical process now in which i am trying to understand the reality of some hurts. But even if i am not convinced...i.e. I don't know either way...I must support the efforts of Paw or any other moderators to avoid people getting deeply hurt. And if I were a moderator and not convinced, I would have to take any action needed. Unless I have proof that someone is not giving a true account, I don't want to do or allow something that MAY not cause pain.
Personally.. I don't see the attraction in making excuses for the vicster, or attempting to protect his "precious" name.. or to see that every jot and tittle as to legalities be fulfilled before bringing forth some kind of claim which supposedly slanders his "holy" name..
what's the big deal? He was caught with his pants down.. in more ways than one. The *man* even publically displayed pornography with MINORS present for gawd's sakes..
It seems the harder they fight for the rights of these scumbuckets, the more they contaminate the "ministry" and the name of the mogster they seek to protect.. I don't see the logic in this. Maybe that's the plan- seems quite effective smearing the mogster even worse.
Or perhaps one's "ministry" depends on the teachings and reputation of the so called manogawd to remain unsullied.. perhaps for the scam to perpeptuate, one needs to do something about the old victims..
maybe every personal story and claim is yet another dig in the flesh for some..
or were the apologists victimizers themselves? Could it be that they are projecting their guilt in the situation? Weighing what might be needed to bring a conviction from some of these kind of claims?
I dunno.. whatever their real motive is, I'd like to know.
There are people who cleverly mask their nasty insinuations, their intentions to cause hurt in innocuous looking queries.
Then when people react strongly to their cruelty...the offenders back off in pretended surprise....who..lil ole innocent ME???? Oh you just misunderstood....stop picking on poor me..your all such meanies...
Bah...it is deliberate and an ongoing process to cause as much disruption as the rules allow.
I don`t understand treating people this way. Most of you doing it never really had any first hand interactions with the folks that you are defending , but you damned sure don`t have a problem with causing pain for living breathing souls here in defense of your ideals :(
You may be suprised at how many of the "defenders" did have face to face contact with VPW. I suspect that has a lot to do with why they find the stories of abuse difficult to believe.
Abusers generally don't outwardly look like abusers - else they would never find anyone to prey upon. Instead, they are often very charming and charismatic people. So, if you knew VPW face to face and were not one of his victims, had not witnessed his other side, then it does make it more difficult to believe the stories of people you have never met.
Additionally, despite what you, I and many others may think of the PFAL class and other TWI teachings, some here still feel their lives benefited from it. I guess, if it works still for their lives, who am I to force my own beliefs upon them.
And finally, as I think we have seen in this thread, some (IMO) lash out at people here with misdirected anger. Perhaps they can't lash out at the ones they should be angry at, perhaps there are layers of denial, whatever the case may be . . .
Ultimately I think we should keep our focus on the message and not the messanger, and thus we will be much less like to find ourselves personally attacking them. I think these people must get something out of being here, otherwise why would they continue to post here in the face of all of the adersity they receive?
But as has been said before, some guidelines for the "About the Way" forum regarding respect for those who tell of their personal experiences would probably be beneficial.
I dunno.. whatever their real motive is, I'd like to know.
it's obviously not "the love of God"..
This is so true. I wish that those who do this in the name of wierwille/twi would examine their actions and motives (heart) in light of this.
Where does your conduct fall in *Love God* and *Love your neighbor*?
What good is any of your aquired knowledge or skill or principles ? What good is your prayers or your studying or your application of rules and immutable laws if in doing so, your responsibility to the two great commandments given us by Jesus is excused or ignored?
Please, my question is genuine, my bewilderment at the treatment deemed acceptable to fellow Christians. This just isn`t how people filled with the spirit (love) of God behave to one another...not in defense of an idea or principle.
Abby, I am speaking of the guys who never left their area...never went wow, never were in the corpes never interacted with wierwille on a personal basis.
There are others here whom have seen wierwille who know of his vile behavior but chose to interpret the actions differently.
Both types would rather assasinate the character and veracity of the person who`s experience is living in your face proof that we might have been wrong or decieved.
Find a way to blame the victims and then one isn`t forced to examine ones own guilt or faults, one isn`t forced to humble themselves and begin fresh with a clean slate and build a healthy understanding and belief system.
One can then remain arrogant and complacent knowing that they are the super believers of this day and age and that their knowledge makes it acceptible to dang on anybody or anything that threatens their perception.
What they do is delberate, hurtful, unkind, and cruel ... behaviors one does not expect of a proclaimed christian...but in twi defenders acceptable. Their beliefs are toxic and harmful, I don`t care what they believe...but when they use that belief as justification and excuse to hurt another...I am sick of it. I am sick of being on the recieving end, I am sick of seeing topics derailed, I am sick of information deliberately buried ..and most of all I am sick of seeing people hurt in the name of a belief or an ideal.
yes it is in HOW one makes a statement or a question, that is what words are abby communication and this venue is what it is .
it is very easy to misread or misconstrue or even misunderstand what one reads, and instead of clarity being sought it is always on attack mode like a war .
did not did to .. elementary at best.
I think that is what Paw is strugling with how to clean it up without unfair censorship.
cause the thing is and many do not quite see this what goes for tit must go for the tot get it?
Paw is NOT unfair.
of that IM convinced. the trouble is if he comes down on the forum with certain Rules for some the huge question will be why not for the others and it will appear bias and unfair.
it is his call and a tough one indeed.
you want to use the word How to describe what one is saying as wrong, how one says it, ok then who is the educator? or trains another on how to speak properly on theses forums ?
who writes the standard what is the standard etc. to each his own on these boards really isnt it?
I never said, nor implied that Paw was unfair, or even that this issue was an easy one to resolve. Similarly, I am aware that problems occur from both sides of the fence, so to speak.
However, some posts, as we have seen in this thread (if they have not been taken down anyway) are very blatantly attacking and disrespectful. Others walk a finer line. In the end, Paw and the moderators will have to decide where and how to draw that line.
One good thing that happened here is the board did self regulate to a certain extent, those involved with the poster after some interaction, did decide not to continue to play with the poster, whether it goes on for another 2-4 pages will be determined.....
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geisha779
Hi, Revictimizing the victims of abuse is itself abusive. It speaks volumes about the one doing it. What they still adhere to shapes their perspective and ability to inflict cruelty on those so horr
Belle
LOVE YA BUNCHES, DOT!!
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cman
Why did being pretty come up?
Does that matter?
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
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Dot Matrix
From Lucy:
You told me I was as responsible as the molester VPW, I had never even spoken to you before. Again another fabrication from pretty "Lucy" using her real (Sarcasm intended) name. Pretty Lucy, as we can see in your lovely photo, when I responded to your mean accusatory post in kind, you got offended. Funny, how you get offended so easily but do not see how you offend others (Also a characteristic of bi-polar disorder. Honey, we are fighting with your chemicals. Get help. Do what Belle said and print this out and give it to your Doctor. I am not kidding about this or using it as fuel, you really need to seek help)You wrote:
Not a very nice post? eh?
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WhiteDove
Nothing to interpet I can read what you stated.
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Mark Clarke
Proverbs 15:1 "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."
Lighten up, people!
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now I see
As far as I'm concerned, Lucyvanpelt, whether you also go by Grumpy, or Bumpy, whatever you are calling yourself today, this will be the test of what the mods will do to a flagrant flamebaiter, poser and troll.
Good luck in future postings, I am very interested in seeing how the mods will treat you.
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now I see
This is also a good test on how the whole of the contributing posters of the GS community can deal with a trolling flamebaiter effectively.
The ignore option is my favorite, this poster has already used up 2 or 3 pages of this important thread by derailing it into a personal attack via flame baiting, we shouldn't let it continue any longer.
How screwed up does a person have to be to spend so much of their time on a web board fabricating and reincarnating themselves, and flaming posters in such a passive agressive fashion?
This person does need the serious kind of help we cannot possibly provide. So sad.
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Dot Matrix
CM
if she needs to be pretty - then she is pretty, that is fine with me. My friends know me.
Janis
But my pretty, you really do not see clearly. You do flame bait, twist, fabricate and obviously can dish it out but cannot take it.
I am not paranoid nor am I afraid of you. I fear very little, and you, my dear, are bush league.
Now I see- the ignore button maybe something I hit, thanks for reminding me
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geisha779
These women who tell their stories are credible and honest. How can you blame THEM for the future actions of the abuser? VP was a pig--pure and simple--
these women were victims of his twisted mind. If you are a victim yourself---empathy is an appropriate response. VP fondled and grabbed enough women
without raping them that many could have confronted him. Why is it you hold the victims of the worse of his abuse accountable. Heck, that man grabbed people
he didn't even know well, in a crowded room no less-with a creepy eye patch on. Anyone could have said to him it was wrong---called the authorities and turned
him in for harrasment. You are going to have to blame a whole bunch more if it is the fault of the victim. The more comfortable they are --these pigs---the bolder
they are.
I wish I could stick around and watch this conversation. Something is NOT right here.
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now I see
That was a quote from Kristen Skeg&ls blog, describing twi's twisted culture and doctrine.
Are we just going to sit here and allow another troll flamebaiter poster to do the same to us today and play us for a fool, while mocking us as they write lying words in order to harass the true victims and pull another fast one on the contributing GS posters? I say not, let's not let this one disrupt another thread and use our sense of fair play against us, our good will shouldn't be looked upon as weakness, we have tolerated quite enough victim harassers here lately.
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pond
But now I see
Quite the rally call you made eh?
The idea is if a poster has a question and states it and it goes against the governing leaders position (the victims) it is NOT ever allowed. right ?
it is considered harrasment and to be AVOIDED as in marked and avoided as a bad bad poster.
what a stand ! impressive and clear to all those with ears to hear.
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Abigail
It isn't that questions were asked, it is HOW they were asked. People can have a tiny bit of respect and if they can't, then perhaps they need to refrain from hitting the "send" button.
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Lifted Up
Position on issues is one thing, hurting someone more who is already hurting is another. I think that is why some things are not allowed.
Someone asking a question may not even be trying to hurt.
In many cases we are handles to each other. It is hard to imagine a handle hurting. Until we do our best to realize there are real people behind these handles.
I am in a critical process now in which i am trying to understand the reality of some hurts. But even if i am not convinced...i.e. I don't know either way...I must support the efforts of Paw or any other moderators to avoid people getting deeply hurt. And if I were a moderator and not convinced, I would have to take any action needed. Unless I have proof that someone is not giving a true account, I don't want to do or allow something that MAY not cause pain.
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Ham
Personally.. I don't see the attraction in making excuses for the vicster, or attempting to protect his "precious" name.. or to see that every jot and tittle as to legalities be fulfilled before bringing forth some kind of claim which supposedly slanders his "holy" name..
what's the big deal? He was caught with his pants down.. in more ways than one. The *man* even publically displayed pornography with MINORS present for gawd's sakes..
It seems the harder they fight for the rights of these scumbuckets, the more they contaminate the "ministry" and the name of the mogster they seek to protect.. I don't see the logic in this. Maybe that's the plan- seems quite effective smearing the mogster even worse.
Or perhaps one's "ministry" depends on the teachings and reputation of the so called manogawd to remain unsullied.. perhaps for the scam to perpeptuate, one needs to do something about the old victims..
maybe every personal story and claim is yet another dig in the flesh for some..
or were the apologists victimizers themselves? Could it be that they are projecting their guilt in the situation? Weighing what might be needed to bring a conviction from some of these kind of claims?
I dunno.. whatever their real motive is, I'd like to know.
it's obviously not "the love of God"..
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rascal
There are people who cleverly mask their nasty insinuations, their intentions to cause hurt in innocuous looking queries.
Then when people react strongly to their cruelty...the offenders back off in pretended surprise....who..lil ole innocent ME???? Oh you just misunderstood....stop picking on poor me..your all such meanies...
Bah...it is deliberate and an ongoing process to cause as much disruption as the rules allow.
I don`t understand treating people this way. Most of you doing it never really had any first hand interactions with the folks that you are defending , but you damned sure don`t have a problem with causing pain for living breathing souls here in defense of your ideals :(
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Ham
I tend to believe the reports. I personally witnessed a group of wives being mentally and physically abused.. by "top leadership"..
and one young lady counselled with screams to "just get over it and get laid".
when someone jumps to these scumbuckets defense, it makes me ask why..
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Abigail
You may be suprised at how many of the "defenders" did have face to face contact with VPW. I suspect that has a lot to do with why they find the stories of abuse difficult to believe.
Abusers generally don't outwardly look like abusers - else they would never find anyone to prey upon. Instead, they are often very charming and charismatic people. So, if you knew VPW face to face and were not one of his victims, had not witnessed his other side, then it does make it more difficult to believe the stories of people you have never met.
Additionally, despite what you, I and many others may think of the PFAL class and other TWI teachings, some here still feel their lives benefited from it. I guess, if it works still for their lives, who am I to force my own beliefs upon them.
And finally, as I think we have seen in this thread, some (IMO) lash out at people here with misdirected anger. Perhaps they can't lash out at the ones they should be angry at, perhaps there are layers of denial, whatever the case may be . . .
Ultimately I think we should keep our focus on the message and not the messanger, and thus we will be much less like to find ourselves personally attacking them. I think these people must get something out of being here, otherwise why would they continue to post here in the face of all of the adersity they receive?
But as has been said before, some guidelines for the "About the Way" forum regarding respect for those who tell of their personal experiences would probably be beneficial.
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rascal
This is so true. I wish that those who do this in the name of wierwille/twi would examine their actions and motives (heart) in light of this.
Where does your conduct fall in *Love God* and *Love your neighbor*?
What good is any of your aquired knowledge or skill or principles ? What good is your prayers or your studying or your application of rules and immutable laws if in doing so, your responsibility to the two great commandments given us by Jesus is excused or ignored?
Please, my question is genuine, my bewilderment at the treatment deemed acceptable to fellow Christians. This just isn`t how people filled with the spirit (love) of God behave to one another...not in defense of an idea or principle.
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rascal
Abby, I am speaking of the guys who never left their area...never went wow, never were in the corpes never interacted with wierwille on a personal basis.
There are others here whom have seen wierwille who know of his vile behavior but chose to interpret the actions differently.
Both types would rather assasinate the character and veracity of the person who`s experience is living in your face proof that we might have been wrong or decieved.
Find a way to blame the victims and then one isn`t forced to examine ones own guilt or faults, one isn`t forced to humble themselves and begin fresh with a clean slate and build a healthy understanding and belief system.
One can then remain arrogant and complacent knowing that they are the super believers of this day and age and that their knowledge makes it acceptible to dang on anybody or anything that threatens their perception.
What they do is delberate, hurtful, unkind, and cruel ... behaviors one does not expect of a proclaimed christian...but in twi defenders acceptable. Their beliefs are toxic and harmful, I don`t care what they believe...but when they use that belief as justification and excuse to hurt another...I am sick of it. I am sick of being on the recieving end, I am sick of seeing topics derailed, I am sick of information deliberately buried ..and most of all I am sick of seeing people hurt in the name of a belief or an ideal.
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pond
Abby
yes it is in HOW one makes a statement or a question, that is what words are abby communication and this venue is what it is .
it is very easy to misread or misconstrue or even misunderstand what one reads, and instead of clarity being sought it is always on attack mode like a war .
did not did to .. elementary at best.
I think that is what Paw is strugling with how to clean it up without unfair censorship.
cause the thing is and many do not quite see this what goes for tit must go for the tot get it?
Paw is NOT unfair.
of that IM convinced. the trouble is if he comes down on the forum with certain Rules for some the huge question will be why not for the others and it will appear bias and unfair.
it is his call and a tough one indeed.
you want to use the word How to describe what one is saying as wrong, how one says it, ok then who is the educator? or trains another on how to speak properly on theses forums ?
who writes the standard what is the standard etc. to each his own on these boards really isnt it?
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Abigail
I never said, nor implied that Paw was unfair, or even that this issue was an easy one to resolve. Similarly, I am aware that problems occur from both sides of the fence, so to speak.
However, some posts, as we have seen in this thread (if they have not been taken down anyway) are very blatantly attacking and disrespectful. Others walk a finer line. In the end, Paw and the moderators will have to decide where and how to draw that line.
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pond
no you didnt imply that but it has been said on this thread that it is unfair that some have a voice that another disapproves of .
I do not see it as any more of an attack than what the "other side" is capable of.
How the communication styles can or will ever change is the tall order for the mods to figure out.
I have no clue how they can do it without restricting certain viewpoints , it is interesting to see what can happen.
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Tom Strange
Manipulation is not just a river in Egypt... I'm just sayin'...
I'd really be interested in what "Pappa Gee" has to say about all of this!
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now I see
One good thing that happened here is the board did self regulate to a certain extent, those involved with the poster after some interaction, did decide not to continue to play with the poster, whether it goes on for another 2-4 pages will be determined.....
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