I believe everyone needs therapy cult or no cult EVERYONE.
There certainly is value in reflection/introspection. Therapists can certainly provide some direction in doing so. I've benefitted a couple of times from such.
A great deal of healing/growth CAN come from self directed introspection and other learning... if one is actively looking for same.
I would agree with you to a degree. I believe everyone can potentially benefit from therapy.
Is there something on TWI on the Knapp website? Posts suggest yes, but I can't see it.
As well as the list of "problems" that people may suffer from - perversely, as well as difficulty in trusting, I found I became too ready to trust other Christians. You know, the sort of "instant friends" we got with TWI. Too open where being more circumspect might have been an advantage.
John:
You have some interesting links on your page. You might feel inclined to add the Cafe's address - or maybe just give it to any exTWI who approach you.
The Cafe has been immensely healing to so many ex TWI people, to see that whatever they are dealing with really isn't just their problem but is common to many others over a long period of time. They are already well on the way to healing if they are seeking your help. Whatever it takes to get them sound-minded again...
The recent leaver (especially involuntarily) may well consider you "possessed" by devil spirits and would never contact you.
Is there something on TWI on the Knapp website? Posts suggest yes, but I can't see it.
As well as the list of "problems" that people may suffer from - perversely, as well as difficulty in trusting, I found I became too ready to trust other Christians. You know, the sort of "instant friends" we got with TWI. Too open where being more circumspect might have been an advantage.
John:
You have some interesting links on your page. You might feel inclined to add the Cafe's address - or maybe just give it to any exTWI who approach you.
The Cafe has been immensely healing to so many ex TWI people, to see that whatever they are dealing with really isn't just their problem but is common to many others over a long period of time. They are already well on the way to healing if they are seeking your help. Whatever it takes to get them sound-minded again...
The recent leaver (especially involuntarily) may well consider you "possessed" by devil spirits and would never contact you.
Great post, Twinky!
I have no information regarding any group on my site -- with the single exception of my group, Transcendental Meditation, which I include because it allows me to talk about my own experience.
I keep no lists of cults, rather I talk about cultic relationships. The most I do is mention a few categories of cultic groups: New Age, multi-level marketing, Bible-based, and so forth.
Your point about being too trusting is a great one. I will add it to the list of symptoms. (If you like I'll add an attribution, as suggested by Twinky at GSC.) People tend to have too porous boundaries after leaving a group. Their boundaries were so violated by the leaders, the group, the teachings, that many do not have a healthy sense of boundaries from others. Particularly people with similar beliefs, like in this case other Christians. It can lead to bouncing from one group to another, troubles with intimate relationships, being victimized by scams, etc.
You're right, I work with people who are already on the path to recovery -- they've made the decision to leave. To do therapy, it's pretty much necessary to do so. Do you know this old chestnut: "How many therapists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one. But the lightbulb really has to want to change." (Sorry! I have a corny sense of humor.)
(Although I'm working with a Jehovah's Witness right now who wants to remain in the Church. I try to meet people right where they are and accept their goals at face value.)
People tend to have too porous boundaries after leaving a group. Their boundaries were so violated by the leaders, the group, the teachings, that many do not have a healthy sense of boundaries from others. Particularly people with similar beliefs, like in this case other Christians. It can lead to bouncing from one group to another, troubles with intimate relationships, being victimized by scams, etc.
Hard to make friends, too, no skills left.
You're right, I work with people who are already on the path to recovery -- they've made the decision to leave. To do therapy, it's pretty much necessary to do so. Do you know this old chestnut: "How many therapists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one. But the lightbulb really has to want to change." (Sorry! I have a corny sense of humor.)
(Although I'm working with a Jehovah's Witness right now who wants to remain in the Church. I try to meet people right where they are and accept their goals at face value.)
TWI and no doubt other groups practised "mark and avoid" (M&A) where people were cast out with all sorts of horribly slanderous things said about them, often to their faces and always behind their backs. These people are terribly cut off, and may have gone through immense separation trauma, at least to begin with. This type of "lightbulb" doesn't want to change, it wants to get back in the box where it came from . Perhaps like your JW client. This lightbulb only knows it needs help coping with life as it has become. But no doubt you know that!
TWI and no doubt other groups practised "mark and avoid" (M&A) where people were cast out with all sorts of horribly slanderous things said about them, often to their faces and always behind their backs. These people are terribly cut off, and may have gone through immense separation trauma, at least to begin with. This type of "lightbulb" doesn't want to change, it wants to get back in the box where it came from . Perhaps like your JW client. This lightbulb only knows it needs help coping with life as it has become. But no doubt you know that!
PS no attributions, just help these people! :)
Yup, some people call these "castaways." I work really only work with people who see the need to change. There are "exit counselors," such as Rick Ross, Joe Szimhart, and others, who may be called in by family or friends to do an intervention to help a person see the need to leave twi or another group. For various reasons, I don't do that kind of work. But I have respect for those who do!
Occasionally, I've done work with people, like the JW I mentioned, who haven't decided to leave their group. In his case, he is trying to save a family relationship that has given him an ultimatum to leave the group -- or else. So he sees a need to change his situation because of the pain he is experiencing, but sees no need to leave JWs. This is rare for me.
Usually when someone reaches out to a self-professed cult counselor, they are interested in recovery from their cult.
Twinky, thanks for the ideas on difficulties you see people are faced with. Keep 'em coming!
Did anyone see the article on Secondary Narcissism (what looks like a very honest post from John) and relate it to the immense desire of some ex-TWI leadership to set up their own little organizations?
Is starting an anti-cult organization like starting one's own religious organization (= cult)? Which may well be what whoever started this thread was thinking about.
Except that the former sometimes seeks control disguised as freedom (STFI); and the latter seems to be seeking freedom.
Did anyone see the article on Secondary Narcissism (what looks like a very honest post from John) and relate it to the immense desire of some ex-TWI leadership to set up their own little organizations?
Is starting an anti-cult organization like starting one's own religious organization (= cult)? Which may well be what whoever started this thread was thinking about.
Except that the former sometimes seeks control disguised as freedom (STFI); and the latter seems to be seeking freedom.
john knapp, there is an argument going on here lately
victim tells story about abuse from the man of god (vp)
another poster says you can't prove it (in a court of law kind of way)
veepee is dead
--
ever come across such an argument?
Yes, but usually there is other evidence, if one is involved in a court law. It's not really possible to prove abuse took place -- in a court of law -- based on "he said, she said." This doesn't mean the abuse doesn't take place.
I'm sorry, lucyvanpelt, I don't understand your question. I don't remember using the word "troll." If I can help, I'll try.
It was really me, John Knapp, posting -- although the poster showed up as "JustSayNO." Some kind of system error took place.
I'm not sure what happened. I hadn't registered for the site yet, but I just hit "reply" anyway. Apparently the system logged me in as JustSayNO, but it never asked me for a password or anything.
I foolishly thought the system had given me a default handle. Now, that I think about it, I've never seen that happen anywhere else, so I don't know why I thought that.
I didn't have JSN's password or other login information. Sounds like a security hole that needs to be fixed!
I'm sorry for any inconvenience or worry that I caused. I've already replied to an email from JSN and one from Michael explaining what happened.
I am a legitimate cult counselor and have done some work with TWI members. I think Michael will be posting a link to my site on his cult resources page.
I understand why the GSC community would be concerned about trolls or security breaches. I share your worry!
If I can answer any questions or be of ANY help, please don't hesitate to post me directly here or email me at jmknapp53@gmail.com. (A couple of forum members have written me already.)
Thanks, JSN, I had forgot about that comment. I meant nothing specific by it. Most cult veteran sites are plagued by trolls and attempts to shut them down or otherwise break security. Some allege these attempts are by members of cultic organizations. I have no knowledge about trolls or security breaches here, however.
Is starting an anti-cult organization like starting one's own religious organization (= cult)? Which may well be what whoever started this thread was thinking about.
There are some critics of the anti-cult movement that accuse it of cult-like behavior. I can see their point, in some ways. Some anti-cult organizations foster a groupthink or orthodoxy of their own -- belief in "brainwashing" and similar ideas. And there's an expectation that members follow that orthodoxy -- although not in as rigid a way as many cults do. And some individuals charge what I believe is more money than I am comfortable with for their counseling, expert witness, and other services.
Readers should know that I don't have an organization. I'm an individual therapist with no employees or volunteers. I respect the anti-cult movement for their achievements, but I believe in some of the ideas and de-emphasize others. (For instance, I'm pretty hazy on the whole concept of "brainwashing.") And I post my fees, which are on a sliding scale based on income, right on my site so that people can judge for themselves whether they believe they are fair or not. I also don't at this time get involved with court work like expert testimony, custody work, or similar things because I don't enjoy the work.
Anyway, some say anti-cult organizations are "cultic," many disagree. I urge caution to anyone joining any organization -- no matter how noble their motives. Ask yourself and the group tough questions. And ask any therapist you consider working with tough questions, too, before getting involved.
I would like to address this issue of "brainwashing"
I prefer to think of it as "thought replacement". That's not my term. It's a term I have seen in various essays, articles, etc.
Most people who have never been in a cult tend to think of brainwashing as a process that turns its victims into zombie-like creatures. Maybe that's the result of the way Hollywood has portrayed it, I don't know.
The Way actually encouraged people to subject themselves to brainwashing, though, of course, it was not stated so blatantly. In PFAL (Which is the "foundational" class of PFAL, it is taught (in session #7 )that the Devil was able to deceive Eve because she, first and foremost, allowed herself to consider what he(The Serpent) was saying. That's the first step of a five step process that led to her downfall.(according to PFAL) So, even as early as the seventh session of the foundational class, people are being conditioned to accept what leadership tells them and reject critical thinking. In addition, one of the main goals a "believer" was to strive for was "likemindedness" on God's word. We must all think the same things. Of course, it's really just their particular version of God's word. There is even a class (Yes, it cost money to take it) that teaches how to "renew" their minds. (ie; all think the same things) One of the most fundamental beliefs of TWI is that there is an immutable "law" that dictates we control our destinies by our thoughts. Now, there are bits and pieces of truths laced throughout this but the simple fact is, you can not control events in the physical world (good or bad) just by thinking about them. TWI, however, taught that you could. (Does this sound like "The Secret"?)
In addition, TWI taught that it was the "one true household of God". While you were in its fold, you were in a spiritual fortress of sorts and protected from the craftiness of "The Adversary". The inverse, of course, was that if you left the group, you were leaving that "hedge of protection". Heck, Just leaving the group could render you a "GreaseSpot" in the road by Midnight.
Worse than that, the consequences of leaving extended to your family. So, even if you were willing to take a chance personaly, did you really want to risk the lives of your loved ones? This stuff all becomes very real and possible in time. That's part of what I(IMO) consider part of the "brainwashing".
Recommended Posts
cheranne
Yeah, I really don't like Dr Phil! Good Luck to you then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
There certainly is value in reflection/introspection. Therapists can certainly provide some direction in doing so. I've benefitted a couple of times from such.
A great deal of healing/growth CAN come from self directed introspection and other learning... if one is actively looking for same.
I would agree with you to a degree. I believe everyone can potentially benefit from therapy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Is there something on TWI on the Knapp website? Posts suggest yes, but I can't see it.
As well as the list of "problems" that people may suffer from - perversely, as well as difficulty in trusting, I found I became too ready to trust other Christians. You know, the sort of "instant friends" we got with TWI. Too open where being more circumspect might have been an advantage.
John:
You have some interesting links on your page. You might feel inclined to add the Cafe's address - or maybe just give it to any exTWI who approach you.
The Cafe has been immensely healing to so many ex TWI people, to see that whatever they are dealing with really isn't just their problem but is common to many others over a long period of time. They are already well on the way to healing if they are seeking your help. Whatever it takes to get them sound-minded again...
The recent leaver (especially involuntarily) may well consider you "possessed" by devil spirits and would never contact you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
John M Knapp LMSW
Great post, Twinky!
I have no information regarding any group on my site -- with the single exception of my group, Transcendental Meditation, which I include because it allows me to talk about my own experience.
I keep no lists of cults, rather I talk about cultic relationships. The most I do is mention a few categories of cultic groups: New Age, multi-level marketing, Bible-based, and so forth.
Your point about being too trusting is a great one. I will add it to the list of symptoms. (If you like I'll add an attribution, as suggested by Twinky at GSC.) People tend to have too porous boundaries after leaving a group. Their boundaries were so violated by the leaders, the group, the teachings, that many do not have a healthy sense of boundaries from others. Particularly people with similar beliefs, like in this case other Christians. It can lead to bouncing from one group to another, troubles with intimate relationships, being victimized by scams, etc.
I agree the Café seems to be a wonderful resource. I should have thought to add it to my links page myself! I'll do so this morning.
You're right, I work with people who are already on the path to recovery -- they've made the decision to leave. To do therapy, it's pretty much necessary to do so. Do you know this old chestnut: "How many therapists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one. But the lightbulb really has to want to change." (Sorry! I have a corny sense of humor.)
(Although I'm working with a Jehovah's Witness right now who wants to remain in the Church. I try to meet people right where they are and accept their goals at face value.)
Thanks again, Twinky, for your post!
J.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
TWI and no doubt other groups practised "mark and avoid" (M&A) where people were cast out with all sorts of horribly slanderous things said about them, often to their faces and always behind their backs. These people are terribly cut off, and may have gone through immense separation trauma, at least to begin with. This type of "lightbulb" doesn't want to change, it wants to get back in the box where it came from
. Perhaps like your JW client. This lightbulb only knows it needs help coping with life as it has become. But no doubt you know that!
PS no attributions, just help these people! :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
John M Knapp LMSW
Yup, some people call these "castaways." I work really only work with people who see the need to change. There are "exit counselors," such as Rick Ross, Joe Szimhart, and others, who may be called in by family or friends to do an intervention to help a person see the need to leave twi or another group. For various reasons, I don't do that kind of work. But I have respect for those who do!
Occasionally, I've done work with people, like the JW I mentioned, who haven't decided to leave their group. In his case, he is trying to save a family relationship that has given him an ultimatum to leave the group -- or else. So he sees a need to change his situation because of the pain he is experiencing, but sees no need to leave JWs. This is rare for me.
Usually when someone reaches out to a self-professed cult counselor, they are interested in recovery from their cult.
Twinky, thanks for the ideas on difficulties you see people are faced with. Keep 'em coming!
J.
P.S. I put the link up to GSC on my links page.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Some interesting stuff on John Knapp's website.
Did anyone see the article on Secondary Narcissism (what looks like a very honest post from John) and relate it to the immense desire of some ex-TWI leadership to set up their own little organizations?
Is starting an anti-cult organization like starting one's own religious organization (= cult)? Which may well be what whoever started this thread was thinking about.
Except that the former sometimes seeks control disguised as freedom (STFI); and the latter seems to be seeking freedom.
http://knappfamilycounseling.com/2ndnarcissism.html
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
That is an insightful essay. Indeed, the insistance that we were right and everyone else wrong fits with Knapp's hypothesis on secondary narcissism.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
john knapp, there is an argument going on here lately
victim tells story about abuse from the man of god (vp)
another poster says you can't prove it (in a court of law kind of way)
veepee is dead
--
ever come across such an argument?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lucyvanpelt
I want to clear up one thing. John Knapp is who he is and Wayne Clapp is the guy al you may be thinking of.
My question to John is why did you use the word troll?
I am already in therapy, been since 1993, bipolar. Slow cycler, on meds, doing great, stable as they say.
This could help people if they want to be helped.
me
Quote from the moive Steel Magnolias, Ex, you are a regular smart a$$. Love that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
John M Knapp LMSW
Yes, but usually there is other evidence, if one is involved in a court law. It's not really possible to prove abuse took place -- in a court of law -- based on "he said, she said." This doesn't mean the abuse doesn't take place.
I'm sorry, lucyvanpelt, I don't understand your question. I don't remember using the word "troll." If I can help, I'll try.
J.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustSayNO
John,
I think she was refering to this comment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
John M Knapp LMSW
Thanks, JSN, I had forgot about that comment. I meant nothing specific by it. Most cult veteran sites are plagued by trolls and attempts to shut them down or otherwise break security. Some allege these attempts are by members of cultic organizations. I have no knowledge about trolls or security breaches here, however.
J.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Twinky,
Just noticed this question in your post.
There are some critics of the anti-cult movement that accuse it of cult-like behavior. I can see their point, in some ways. Some anti-cult organizations foster a groupthink or orthodoxy of their own -- belief in "brainwashing" and similar ideas. And there's an expectation that members follow that orthodoxy -- although not in as rigid a way as many cults do. And some individuals charge what I believe is more money than I am comfortable with for their counseling, expert witness, and other services.
Readers should know that I don't have an organization. I'm an individual therapist with no employees or volunteers. I respect the anti-cult movement for their achievements, but I believe in some of the ideas and de-emphasize others. (For instance, I'm pretty hazy on the whole concept of "brainwashing.") And I post my fees, which are on a sliding scale based on income, right on my site so that people can judge for themselves whether they believe they are fair or not. I also don't at this time get involved with court work like expert testimony, custody work, or similar things because I don't enjoy the work.
Anyway, some say anti-cult organizations are "cultic," many disagree. I urge caution to anyone joining any organization -- no matter how noble their motives. Ask yourself and the group tough questions. And ask any therapist you consider working with tough questions, too, before getting involved.
Thanks for another great question, Twinky!
J.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Hi, John
I would like to address this issue of "brainwashing"
I prefer to think of it as "thought replacement". That's not my term. It's a term I have seen in various essays, articles, etc.
Most people who have never been in a cult tend to think of brainwashing as a process that turns its victims into zombie-like creatures. Maybe that's the result of the way Hollywood has portrayed it, I don't know.
The Way actually encouraged people to subject themselves to brainwashing, though, of course, it was not stated so blatantly. In PFAL (Which is the "foundational" class of PFAL, it is taught (in session #7 )that the Devil was able to deceive Eve because she, first and foremost, allowed herself to consider what he(The Serpent) was saying. That's the first step of a five step process that led to her downfall.(according to PFAL) So, even as early as the seventh session of the foundational class, people are being conditioned to accept what leadership tells them and reject critical thinking. In addition, one of the main goals a "believer" was to strive for was "likemindedness" on God's word. We must all think the same things. Of course, it's really just their particular version of God's word. There is even a class (Yes, it cost money to take it) that teaches how to "renew" their minds. (ie; all think the same things) One of the most fundamental beliefs of TWI is that there is an immutable "law" that dictates we control our destinies by our thoughts. Now, there are bits and pieces of truths laced throughout this but the simple fact is, you can not control events in the physical world (good or bad) just by thinking about them. TWI, however, taught that you could. (Does this sound like "The Secret"?)
In addition, TWI taught that it was the "one true household of God". While you were in its fold, you were in a spiritual fortress of sorts and protected from the craftiness of "The Adversary". The inverse, of course, was that if you left the group, you were leaving that "hedge of protection". Heck, Just leaving the group could render you a "GreaseSpot" in the road by Midnight.
Worse than that, the consequences of leaving extended to your family. So, even if you were willing to take a chance personaly, did you really want to risk the lives of your loved ones? This stuff all becomes very real and possible in time. That's part of what I(IMO) consider part of the "brainwashing".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.