What's the point of the Doctrinal Forum anymore?

[Sunesis]

It seems to me, within the last year or so, that when those of us who still believe try and discuss Christ, the Bible, God, that anyone who still believes in Christianity, is now a fool, still stuck in TWI, responsible for the Crusades and mass murder, etc. The belief in Christ is ridiculed, derided, etc. consistently here.

We used to have great discussions here.

Not so much anymore. A few new people try and explain why they still believe, and are called intolerant, closed minded, not open to new ideas, etc.

For those of us GS "old timers" who still believe, for most of us, its just not worth our time to post here anymore because pretty much we will be ridiculed, shot down, called superstitious, irrational, and on and on.

You note Jen-O's not here now. Let's see how long Geisha lasts.

[Oakspear]

I don't know Sunesis, Geisha is having a discussion with me and The Invisible Dan and a few others and it's remarkably civil and open-minded on all sides in my opinion. I'm not saying that what you describe doesn't happen, because it does, but some good discussions can and do happen when there is mutual respect.

While I disagree with her conclusions about the evidence that she presents, I find her logical thought processes refreshing and her information educational. She has expressed her disagreement politely and I think she will tell you that Invisible Dan & I have done the same.

[jeast]

I agree with Sunesis.

It is tough to reach any kind of understanding on any given topic when loose associations and name calling e.g. snobbish, etc are used to give the semblance of superiority. I have learned to respect many of the posters here because they treat others with respect regardless of our position on any given doctrine. There have been topics though that I would have enjoyed seeing more in depth discussions on but backed away when the slams and put-downs started.

We can be honest and open without being derisive.

Edited July 7, 2008 by jeast

[cman]

If you think something wrong or something like you said is happening, why don't you speak up in that thread?

Instead of starting a thread that accuses everyone.

Are you afraid to say anything?

Or don't want to get involved?

But here is this thread with your opinion.

Say it where you see it. It don't matter what the response is as they will vary.

Point it out when it happens and move on. Seems the best anyone can do.

[brideofjc]

Hey Sunesis,

It's for those of us that do indeed believe in the wonderful and living Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Despite those who want to name call....Bless on!

Got any good topics? I'm game. I only get to post occasionally now until I get back online, but I'm willing.

[Oakspear]

...to give the semblance of superiority

Semblance? ;)

http://www.despair.com/pretension.html

Edited July 7, 2008 by Oakspear

[brideofjc]

It seems to me, within the last year or so, that when those of us who still believe try and discuss Christ, the Bible, God, that anyone who still believes in Christianity, is now a fool, still stuck in TWI, responsible for the Crusades and mass murder, etc. The belief in Christ is ridiculed, derided, etc. consistently here.

We used to have great discussions here.

Not so much anymore. A few new people try and explain why they still believe, and are called intolerant, closed minded, not open to new ideas, etc.

For those of us GS "old timers" who still believe, for most of us, its just not worth our time to post here anymore because pretty much we will be ridiculed, shot down, called superstitious, irrational, and on and on.

You note Jen-O's not here now. Let's see how long Geisha lasts.

What happened to Jen-o? I've noticed Rachel Ysrael isn't posting anymore either.

[Oakspear]

It's for those of us that do indeed believe in the wonderful and living Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!

Are you saying that the doctrinal forum is only for those who fall into that category? If I misunderstand please correct my misapprehension.

[cman]

An us verses them statement that really sucks imo.

Judge those you disagree with, with not doing something, though they have no idea what you do or don't do.

Though I've done it all too.

[Oakspear]

Follow up to Sunesis while I'm waiting for bride to check back in:

Like I said earlier, the things that you mentioned do occur. Christians do get ridiculed and insulted. It's wrong. What also happens is that some of the Christians ridicule and insult the non-Christians.

Sometimes both sides get insulted when no insult is meant. Part of disagreement is that you believe that the other side is wrong. Believers, consistant with their belief system, see atheists as blind to the handiwork of God evident in the world, atheists, consistant in their belief system, see believers as credulous and yes, engaged in illogical thinking. It shouldn't be a surprise to either camp that the other feels this way. But first, is there a polite way to express these opinions without being insulting and condescending? Second, is it necessary to get one's defenses up because someone is less than diplomatic?

Speaking from the non-Christian side of the cafe, sometimes we disagree with you guys. We don't believe that the bible is god-breathed, and yes, we will question assertions that you make. Most of you are smart enough to discuss your beliefs rather than cutting off discussion with remarks like "That's what the Word says", because a lot of the time, not all Christians agree that that is what the Words says, let alone what it means.

As an ex-wayfer I enjoy getting involved in doctrinal discussions because part of me wants to know how I got fooled, how I was reeled in by Wierwillism. Part of me just enjoys good intellectual debate. But I've been told that I shouldn't participate in doctrinal diuscussion because I am not a Christian, and my opinion was dismissed by a poster who suggested that another poster "not listen to demons".

This isn't a pity contest. I'm not trying to prove that I'm more persecuted than you are. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not just that Christians are getting picked, but everyone is being treated with disrespect.

I point out again the law of Believing thread's last several pages, a polite, civil, reasonable discussion is being held among several posters, none of whom agree with each other in the slightest. I point out my many discussions with WordWolf, a committed Christian that I have had many fruitful discussions with, because we each respect the other despite a wide chasm between our beliefs.

I'm all for getting along and keeping this a place for discussion, not derision.

[jeast]

What more needs to be said?

Peace

[Sunesis]

Cman, chill. I haven't accused anyone of anything. I stated my opinion. I stated what I have seen and read here. You just jumped down my throat. Thank you for illustrating my opinion. I just repeated what I have seen posted here quite commonly. When someone is as vehement as you are, why would anyone want to stir up that particular hornet's nest? And if someone has stated they don't believe, why would anyone try and convince them otherwise? Not me. That would be a pretty futile exercise, for people to try and change other people's minds - on both sides.

Oak, thanks for your civil reply. All I'm saying, is the Christians here start a topic, and many times its pretty much done in by those who need to let us know they don't believe and subtly mock or insult - as has happened to me and somehow equating belief in Christ or God with some kind of "skygod." I could no more believe in any kind of sky god or Santa, or whatever, either. Neither could any Christian. The living Christ is just that - living in someone's heart. It passes knowledge. To those who know Him, a "sky god" is an absurd comparison. To those who know Him, there is no comparison - it is a living communion with a living Christ. To those who don't know Him, I guess it would seem logical that's what it must be like - some kind of weird sky god - that's all they can compare it with and I can see their point totally. But to a Christian its living and real, its a spiritual life, nothing like the world can imagine or compare.

Of course there are the exceptions with threads. The threads I have seen discussions with Christians that have lasted is because they pretty much ignore the one liners and jabs and continue with the discussion. That hasn't happened too recently though.

Oh well, at least we can all agree, believer and unbeliever "the law of believing" is whack.

[cman]

And I stated mine, as cool as ever.

[anotherDan]

sunesis, my dear

I gave up "doctrinal" partially for the reasons you stated. This just doesn't seem like the place for discussions like you and I want. But where is? Honestly, I don't know.

[Oakspear]

Sunesis:

I wouldn't get upset about the biblical god being referred to as the "skygod" any more than I should get upset at being called a "demon". Ignorant people will not go away just because we're annoyed at them.

edited for spelling because the original post followed 3 Jack Daniels and much beer

Edited July 8, 2008 by Oakspear

[TheInvisibleDan]

Well, it beats "volcano god"

[Bramble]

I thought the Law of Believing thread took a great turn after the 'demon' business was flung around, and has been a great discussion. I haven't seen anyone be meanies to geisha, and she has certainly posted well thought out posts that are not demeaning to opposing posters.

I also have not seen a great line between civil and uncivil posters lining up the Christian posters as civil and the unchristian as uncivil. Some on both sides are civil and uncivil.

[brideofjc]

Are you saying that the doctrinal forum is only for those who fall into that category? If I misunderstand please correct my misapprehension.

Allllll Riiiiggghhhhtttttt!

I guess we'll let you too!

[cman]

Why does anyone claim to believe Christ when there is always another side of Christ that is not seen.

Interesting that Christ died and changed imo.

And we are to follow this Christ.

Believe it or not I'm one that tries to.

Sometimes I do and sometimes I miss it.

It's like catching a jet from a mountain.

Or jumping and letting the jet catch you.

Edited July 8, 2008 by cman

[lindyhopper]

It's like catching a jet from a mountain.

Or jumping and letting the jet catch you.

Ouch! Sounds painful. :blink:

I would say that anytime you get true believers of differing sides in discussion about their opposing views, when they are inherently at loggerheads with eahcother, we will find some hurt feelings... at least if we want the discussion to be raw and honest. I think when we sugarcoat everything we loose some of the honest truth behind one's beliefs. Not that we should be flinging reactionary insults around, but that we should be honest and at the same time have thick skin. If we are going to take one's views about god as an insult to your family, like saying a "your momma" joke, then perhaps we're in the wrong place. We can all say things more politely, but we can all let things slide off our back a little more, as well. We could also take those perceived insults and turn it back into conversation material rather than the first strike of a war. Most of those times, IMO, the "insulter" was just being honest not inciting things.

Edited July 8, 2008 by lindyhopper

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Sunesis and all others

God loves you my dear friends

What's the point of the Doctrinal Forum anymore?

the point is to share our heart and this place is always changing and we are changing too

While I would like to see the doctrine broke up into sub-subjects

like

1. heavenly spiritual debate -- anything goes doctrine

2. bible only debate of verse and scripture -- lite doctrine

3. against God and the word debates -- dislike doctrine

4. which church debate

5. prophecy - tongues - dreams - vision -- answer and unanswered

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[Twinky]

What I don't understand is why Doctrinal is hidden away in the dungeon like something to be ashamed of. It's not with the other forums like ATW or Open.

This should be a great place to discuss in particular some of the stuff we were taught in PFAL that we are now turning over in our minds; and to discuss new stuff. But what I have seen is people who think they know it all or being superior; or people who are just derisive. And many who drag a subject Off Topic.

It's hard to discuss some stuff within churches because they don't know where we're coming from and it doesn't fit their own theology so they think it's crazy anyway. Surely Doctrinal is part of the Cafe self-help group just as much as other forums? As Oakspear says (and he sits the other side of the Cafe from me), he wants to know how he got fooled, how he was reeled in by Wierwillism. Have we ceased questing after Truth [as we see it] and quest after Trash instead?

(edited to add Oak's exact words)

Edited July 9, 2008 by Twinky

[Oakspear]

Actually, I like it that you have to search a bit for the doctrinal forum, helps keep out the riff-raff

For me, the ideal doctrinal discussion would get heated at times, but different points would be considered. I don't know how many times I thought "Hmm, I never thought about it from that angle before".

Phrases (in the context of a doctrinal discussion) that tick me off are sound something like "It's clearly written..." or "That's what the Word says" or "It's not my opinion, that's what God says. I have no problem with anyone believing that, it's just that it does nothing to further a discussion. Equally irritating are remarks like "What difference does it make? There's no God".

It's a discussion forum, if you don't want to discuss, then this isn't your hangout .

[Sushi]

Here comes the comic relief.........

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge,

about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

He said, "Christian."

I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist!"

I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed

Baptist Church of God?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879,

or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

(courtesy of Emo Phillips)

[Sunesis]

Good points all. My sweet Roy, I like your idea of categories, or sections within the doctrinal forum.

I think like someone said here, maybe its how things are said. I know I enjoy discussing stuff, either I've read, learned, agree with, or have changed my mind and don't agree with. Like, for example, Roy, you remember when we got into the discussion of Nephilim, DNA, etc. We were both at opposing side of the issue, but it was a good spirited, lively debate. Maybe we all just need to agree to disagree and go from there.