Hey there JavaJane! I've seen you around the cafe, but haven't gotten to sit down and have a cup with you. Come visit the Art Thread in Open sometime - I'll have to dig it out of oblivion.
I kinda come and go at the cafe'... depends on how much twi stuff is bugging me at the particular moment. Nothing like a cup of coffee with people who have really been there to shake off the nastiness of twi!
What was my infraction? BC guy insisted that I come closer and sit on his lap while we talked. I told him I no longer needed to talk, but he became irate when I refused to sit in his lap and talk anyway. When he continued to insist using a fake "caring" voice and wanted to know why I wouldn't do it, I said it wasn't appropriate to sit in a married man's lap. His wife was standing right there, and I could have misread her body language, but sensed that she agreed with me and was glad I'd refused his advances. That was one time my radar was loud and clear and there was nothing he could say to talk me into it.
Later that day, wifey appeared to tell me I had to talk to PP about what had happened??????? wtf was up with that? Anyway, next day BC guy was there and PP said from what he understood I didn't want to sit in BCs lap so he just shrugged with a funny look on his face and said he supposed I just didn't want to sit in BCs lap....and that was it.
At the time, I just thought it was about his "I'm the ldr and you'll do what I say" attitude, but the lap business always puzzled me.
Was he pimping, or was he just plain stupid?
I did talk about an unhappy family life growing up in my autobiography, but there was never any sexual abuse. Could the powers that were have thought I was leaving that part out and decided to give me a try anyway?
A more normal response for this guys wife would probably be a frying pan upside the head. But I guess the environment conditions out normal responses. I guess eventually it caught up with him. A normal Christian response of course would be that the BC would be reproved and relieved of responsibility for a lack of "good Christian character" like they say are qualifications for applying for the program.
The BC guy sounds like the type who, outside of being married, you'd wonder if he'd ever touched a woman. That's just stupid behavior. You said he didn't come off as too bright. He was probably stupid. He was probably too stupid to be pimping, but trying to pimp. Did he have access to read your autobiography? The CC did probably, and he sounded a little more balanced (but as a CC he should have been correcting that kind of stupidity by the BC).
The fact of the matter is that twi supported dissmissive treatment of wives, especially in public, mirroring VPW's example. Â
It was a known quantity in the WC that the man shouldn't be "criticized" or "corrected" by his wife in front of others. Â For bullies it was an enabler, and for those who were'nt, it turned some well intentioned new husbands into wife wranglers, so many just swallowed what they were taught and embraced the twi culture in this regard. Â
A more normal response for this guys wife would probably be a frying pan upside the head.Agreed! But I guess the environment conditions out normal responses. I guess eventually it caught up with him. A normal Christian response of course would be that the BC would be reproved and relieved of responsibility for a lack of "good Christian character" like they say are qualifications for applying for the program.Yes, that's what I thought. It makes you wonder what the BC thought was going to happen at that meeting. I mean, what did he want the CC to say to me?
The BC guy sounds like the type who, outside of being married, you'd wonder if he'd ever touched a woman. That's just stupid behavior. You said he didn't come off as too bright. He was probably stupid. He was probably too stupid to be pimping, but trying to pimp. Did he have access to read your autobiography? The CC did probably, and he sounded a little more balanced (but as a CC he should have been correcting that kind of stupidity by the BC). Yes, instead of leaving me to wonder if I was still in trouble, etc. and if so, why. Actually BCs wife cleaned it up by telling me later that she would communicate anything from then on that needed to be communicated. That was fine with me--one of my stranger Corps experiences.
Funny, but I thought the whole treatment of wives like they were second class citizens would stop after twi got a woman as a president... but it didn't. My father in law (who has only attended a couple of twi events that my husband drug him to) said that the first thing that told him something was wrong with twi was the way they treated women...
The fact of the matter is that twi supported dissmissive treatment of wives, especially in public, mirroring VPW's example. Â
It was a known quantity in the WC that the man shouldn't be "criticized" or "corrected" by his wife in front of others. Â For bullies it was an enabler, and for those who were'nt, it turned some well intentioned new husbands into wife wranglers, so many just swallowed what they were taught and embraced the twi culture in this regard. Â
Yeah, the "men" stuck together, didn't they?
"men"=whack jobs, control freaks, just to clarify--not talking about all or normal men
Even the guys that didn`t mean to be boogers were conditioned to believe that their wives were emotional creatures, who`s feelings would allow satan in the door. COnstant vigilance must be maintained, a distancing of ones self from their emotions in order to be firm and protect themselves, their wives and their children.
Even WORSE...the wives...omg it is hard to type this...but I was taught to believe the above, and that if my husband loved me, that he would protect me from myself, because my emotions rendered me a danger and unstable. That given the chance, as a woman, I would lead mybeloved down the same path the eve led Adam.
I honestly believed that if my husband ever struck me, it was because I deserved it. I should have shut up, I should have behaved myself. My perception and opinion was simply not to be considered, because who knew when it was a trick.
I was warned of dire consequences if I ever got fat or ugly....and get this...I believed that I would have deserved them.
Folks, what they taught the young men was despicable. What they taught the young women much much worse.
We were conditioned to believe that any abuse suffered that we had coming. If we were good wives, if we took care of our men, we would be ok. Any troubles, and our only resource was to pray, to placate, to gently entreat...
It was a known quantity in the WC that the man shouldn't be "criticized" or "corrected" by his wife in front of others.
That's true. And it extended beyond wives.
Once I was on chair-stringing duty in the chapel at Rome City. One of my male friends was being a butthead and I told him so in no uncertain terms. Dottie M overheard me and sternly yelled at me, "Don't you EVER speak to a man of God like that!" I responded, "When he's acting like a man of God, I won't."
It was sad that even some women in "leadership" positions perpetuated the idea that men were so far superior and more important than women. I got far more respect from that woman's husband than I ever got from her.
Edited to add this: I'm highly in favor of women not bad-mouthing their husbands in public, but in many cases women were discouraged from even expressing an opinion that was different from her husband's. Respect is one thing. Being expected to be a lap dog is another story.
Hey, Dan, I'm sure you're joshin', but let me just say that some of the most wonderful men I've ever known were wayfer men!! (including Socks and DWBH). :)
I was warned of dire consequences if I ever got fat or ugly....and get this...I believed that I would have deserved them.
Folks, what they taught the young men was despicable. What they taught the young women much much worse.
It was a terrible terrible thing to do to people.
O my gosh, that is EXACTLY what my ex-h used to tell me, especially when I was pregnant! So I always took care of myself---he left anyway with some other excuse and some "babe".
Also, Mrs VPW always said in meetings, "If you husband is happy, then you will be happy." Gosh, she must have been choking back tears with that statement knowing that her life was a huge lie; she was abused and really trapped because of her generational expectations. I'm sure the love of her children was what kept her sane.
Well I did to, rejoice, until kiddo number 7 and 40 hit...lol there just isn`t much you can do after that.
Today, I am a pudgy middle aged woman, and I am good with that. :)
Isn`t it ironic that the fellows were permitted to get fat, abusive, alcoholic, loose their hair and treat their spouses abominably...and there were no dark threats or dire consequences....if we were better wives...that just never was going to happen
What a sick broken system. I am mortified that I was in complete agreement.
Hi, my name is Cathy and I....am a koolaid drinker :(
Me too, Linda, and women as well. And of course, we had no corner on the market of wonderful men and women and children.
Nevertheless, as others have pointed out, attitudes that were rotten "at the top" (or at the root, if you prefer) did pervade the society called The Way Ministry, and they influenced me. I saw some things that repulsed me, and some things that touched my heart well while in the Way. The only perfection in any of us was of the Lord. My foolishness and my failings shamed me once I saw things clearer. I know quite a few others who also have grown up and grown out of their own earlier selves, and I thank God for that.
The purpose of the Way Corps was stated to be to give students the opportunity to be around, and learn the ways of, the "man of God." He succeeded in that! So many Corps grads (not all, I know) held these attitudes about women being discussed here, and passed them on to others. But we should have seen it way back when. In The Way Living In Love, it was obvious the attitude VPW had towards women. Remember the story about meeting (I think it was) J. E. Stiles? Stiles' wife asked what he was going to do, or how long, and he said something like, "None of your damn business." And VP said his "respect" for Stiles was increased because of that! He said women were all liars and you couldn't trust them. We all just laughed it off when that book came out. Why did we not see through it? It amazes me, and embarasses me that I was part of that and accepted those attitudes. It made me "feel like more of a man" at the time. And I still catch myself copping attitude with my wife from time to time. Fortunately she's patient and understanding and forgiving. Good thing for me women are "more emotional" huh? If my wife were more "logical" she'd have either left me or clobbered me (or both!).
The purpose of the Way Corps was stated to be to give students the opportunity to be around, and learn the ways of, the "man of God." He succeeded in that! So many Corps grads (not all, I know) held these attitudes about women being discussed here, and passed them on to others. But we should have seen it way back when. In The Way Living In Love, it was obvious the attitude VPW had towards women. Remember the story about meeting (I think it was) J. E. Stiles? Stiles' wife asked what he was going to do, or how long, and he said something like, "None of your damn business." And VP said his "respect" for Stiles was increased because of that! He said women were all liars and you couldn't trust them. We all just laughed it off when that book came out. Why did we not see through it? It amazes me, and embarasses me that I was part of that and accepted those attitudes. It made me "feel like more of a man" at the time. And I still catch myself copping attitude with my wife from time to time. Fortunately she's patient and understanding and forgiving. Good thing for me women are "more emotional" huh? If my wife were more "logical" she'd have either left me or clobbered me (or both!).
The purpose of the Way Corps was stated to be to give students the opportunity to be around, and learn the ways of, the "man of God." He succeeded in that! So many Corps grads (not all, I know) held these attitudes about women being discussed here, and passed them on to others. But we should have seen it way back when. In The Way Living In Love, it was obvious the attitude VPW had towards women. Remember the story about meeting (I think it was) J. E. Stiles? Stiles' wife asked what he was going to do, or how long, and he said something like, "None of your damn business." And VP said his "respect" for Stiles was increased because of that! He said women were all liars and you couldn't trust them. We all just laughed it off when that book came out. Why did we not see through it? It amazes me, and embarasses me that I was part of that and accepted those attitudes. It made me "feel like more of a man" at the time. And I still catch myself copping attitude with my wife from time to time. Fortunately she's patient and understanding and forgiving. Good thing for me women are "more emotional" huh? If my wife were more "logical" she'd have either left me or clobbered me (or both!).
At least you can see through it, those attitudes, now--and recognize them and stop them.
Gosh, those statements bothered me at the time, too. Can't believe I was ever a part of it.
Yeah, we men were all like that..... 'ceptin' Socks and DWBH
Add me to that list. My mom and wife were both Type A overachievers. Mom went so far as to say that most men she knew were thick browed, knuckle dragging animals with a swinging three pronged appendage between their legs. Thanks Mom, that statement more than any other helped me see women not only as equals but formidable ones at that and deserving of respect.
We all just laughed it off when that book came out. Why did we not see through it? It amazes me, and embarasses me that I was part of that and accepted those attitudes. It made me "feel like more of a man" at the time. And I still catch myself copping attitude with my wife from time to time. Fortunately she's patient and understanding and forgiving. Good thing for me women are "more emotional" huh? If my wife were more "logical" she'd have either left me or clobbered me (or both!).
Actually, I did not laugh it off. That statement hurt my heart, and was one of the beginnings of my clarity of mind in regard to that attitude. Another one was a "live" moment where the "Dr." treated his wife harshly (and publicly.... I was there).
I'm highly in favor of women not bad-mouthing their husbands in public, but in many cases women were discouraged from even expressing an opinion that was different from her husband's. Respect is one thing. Being expected to be a lap dog is another story.
I'm highly in favor of spouses not bad-mouthing each other in public, or in private.
I dunno.. seems he'd finally get it.. never going to have the mog worship and all, at least to the extent he had in twi..
kinda pathetic ending for someone with a little potential, addicted to praise, beating every bush, working every ex-wayer he can find to listen to his "wise counsel"..
even goes as far as to "leak" his stuff here, to shake up a few more phone calls and emails.. "just call him.." no thanks. No more "christian" motivational techniques for me..
The first letter here, I imagine he got a couple hundred phone calls.. the next, maybe twenty five- the last one, I think I could here the crowd booing..
It's like a golf tournament. I imagine if you can't get a ball already on the green in the hole with less than ten puts or so, the crowd starts jeering..
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geisha779
The letter of Assumptions--by St. John the divine of Indiana This is what happens when people isolate themselves from the Christian community at large. No accountibility. John, get out there and mee
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Word Wolf--That. . . was. . . an. . . AWESOME read!! Thank-you for that effort. Astute very astute!
waterbuffalo
Yeah, Dooj. That was all right with me
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JavaJane
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chockfull
A more normal response for this guys wife would probably be a frying pan upside the head. But I guess the environment conditions out normal responses. I guess eventually it caught up with him. A normal Christian response of course would be that the BC would be reproved and relieved of responsibility for a lack of "good Christian character" like they say are qualifications for applying for the program.
The BC guy sounds like the type who, outside of being married, you'd wonder if he'd ever touched a woman. That's just stupid behavior. You said he didn't come off as too bright. He was probably stupid. He was probably too stupid to be pimping, but trying to pimp. Did he have access to read your autobiography? The CC did probably, and he sounded a little more balanced (but as a CC he should have been correcting that kind of stupidity by the BC).
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now I see
The fact of the matter is that twi supported dissmissive treatment of wives, especially in public, mirroring VPW's example. Â
It was a known quantity in the WC that the man shouldn't be "criticized" or "corrected" by his wife in front of others. Â For bullies it was an enabler, and for those who were'nt, it turned some well intentioned new husbands into wife wranglers, so many just swallowed what they were taught and embraced the twi culture in this regard. Â
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waterbuffalo
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JavaJane
Funny, but I thought the whole treatment of wives like they were second class citizens would stop after twi got a woman as a president... but it didn't. My father in law (who has only attended a couple of twi events that my husband drug him to) said that the first thing that told him something was wrong with twi was the way they treated women...
Smart man.
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waterbuffalo
Yeah, the "men" stuck together, didn't they?
"men"=whack jobs, control freaks, just to clarify--not talking about all or normal men
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rascal
Oh guys....my PET peeve.
Even the guys that didn`t mean to be boogers were conditioned to believe that their wives were emotional creatures, who`s feelings would allow satan in the door. COnstant vigilance must be maintained, a distancing of ones self from their emotions in order to be firm and protect themselves, their wives and their children.
Even WORSE...the wives...omg it is hard to type this...but I was taught to believe the above, and that if my husband loved me, that he would protect me from myself, because my emotions rendered me a danger and unstable. That given the chance, as a woman, I would lead mybeloved down the same path the eve led Adam.
I honestly believed that if my husband ever struck me, it was because I deserved it. I should have shut up, I should have behaved myself. My perception and opinion was simply not to be considered, because who knew when it was a trick.
I was warned of dire consequences if I ever got fat or ugly....and get this...I believed that I would have deserved them.
Folks, what they taught the young men was despicable. What they taught the young women much much worse.
We were conditioned to believe that any abuse suffered that we had coming. If we were good wives, if we took care of our men, we would be ok. Any troubles, and our only resource was to pray, to placate, to gently entreat...
It was a terrible terrible thing to do to people.
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Linda Z
Now I See said:
That's true. And it extended beyond wives.
Once I was on chair-stringing duty in the chapel at Rome City. One of my male friends was being a butthead and I told him so in no uncertain terms. Dottie M overheard me and sternly yelled at me, "Don't you EVER speak to a man of God like that!" I responded, "When he's acting like a man of God, I won't."
It was sad that even some women in "leadership" positions perpetuated the idea that men were so far superior and more important than women. I got far more respect from that woman's husband than I ever got from her.
Edited to add this: I'm highly in favor of women not bad-mouthing their husbands in public, but in many cases women were discouraged from even expressing an opinion that was different from her husband's. Respect is one thing. Being expected to be a lap dog is another story.
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anotherDan
Yeah, we men were all like that..... 'ceptin' Socks and DWBH
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waterbuffalo
Oh, yeah!
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Linda Z
Hey, Dan, I'm sure you're joshin', but let me just say that some of the most wonderful men I've ever known were wayfer men!! (including Socks and DWBH). :)
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Rejoice
O my gosh, that is EXACTLY what my ex-h used to tell me, especially when I was pregnant! So I always took care of myself---he left anyway with some other excuse and some "babe".
Also, Mrs VPW always said in meetings, "If you husband is happy, then you will be happy." Gosh, she must have been choking back tears with that statement knowing that her life was a huge lie; she was abused and really trapped because of her generational expectations. I'm sure the love of her children was what kept her sane.
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rascal
Well I did to, rejoice, until kiddo number 7 and 40 hit...lol there just isn`t much you can do after that.
Today, I am a pudgy middle aged woman, and I am good with that. :)
Isn`t it ironic that the fellows were permitted to get fat, abusive, alcoholic, loose their hair and treat their spouses abominably...and there were no dark threats or dire consequences....if we were better wives...that just never was going to happen
What a sick broken system. I am mortified that I was in complete agreement.
Hi, my name is Cathy and I....am a koolaid drinker :(
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anotherDan
Me too, Linda, and women as well. And of course, we had no corner on the market of wonderful men and women and children.
Nevertheless, as others have pointed out, attitudes that were rotten "at the top" (or at the root, if you prefer) did pervade the society called The Way Ministry, and they influenced me. I saw some things that repulsed me, and some things that touched my heart well while in the Way. The only perfection in any of us was of the Lord. My foolishness and my failings shamed me once I saw things clearer. I know quite a few others who also have grown up and grown out of their own earlier selves, and I thank God for that.
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Mark Clarke
The purpose of the Way Corps was stated to be to give students the opportunity to be around, and learn the ways of, the "man of God." He succeeded in that! So many Corps grads (not all, I know) held these attitudes about women being discussed here, and passed them on to others. But we should have seen it way back when. In The Way Living In Love, it was obvious the attitude VPW had towards women. Remember the story about meeting (I think it was) J. E. Stiles? Stiles' wife asked what he was going to do, or how long, and he said something like, "None of your damn business." And VP said his "respect" for Stiles was increased because of that! He said women were all liars and you couldn't trust them. We all just laughed it off when that book came out. Why did we not see through it? It amazes me, and embarasses me that I was part of that and accepted those attitudes. It made me "feel like more of a man" at the time. And I still catch myself copping attitude with my wife from time to time. Fortunately she's patient and understanding and forgiving. Good thing for me women are "more emotional" huh? If my wife were more "logical" she'd have either left me or clobbered me (or both!).
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waysider
Amen to that, Brother!
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waterbuffalo
At least you can see through it, those attitudes, now--and recognize them and stop them.
Gosh, those statements bothered me at the time, too. Can't believe I was ever a part of it.
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oenophile
Add me to that list. My mom and wife were both Type A overachievers. Mom went so far as to say that most men she knew were thick browed, knuckle dragging animals with a swinging three pronged appendage between their legs. Thanks Mom, that statement more than any other helped me see women not only as equals but formidable ones at that and deserving of respect.
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dmiller
Add me to that list also.
I never ever did see a man as being better than a woman, merely because of his being a man.
On that note -- there was a bank in Minnesota that fired women when they got pregnant.
The pregnant women fought back, and got the issue taken to court.
The court decided that anyone who stood 8 inches from a wall, and their belly hit the wall,
should be discharged, until they could stand there, and not touch the wall.
The bank lost 2 pregnant women, and 3 vice presidents!!
Needless to say --- the women returned to work!
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anotherDan
Mark said,
Actually, I did not laugh it off. That statement hurt my heart, and was one of the beginnings of my clarity of mind in regard to that attitude. Another one was a "live" moment where the "Dr." treated his wife harshly (and publicly.... I was there).
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Tzaia
I'm highly in favor of spouses not bad-mouthing each other in public, or in private.
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Tzaia
Hammie, he's been trying to recreate the moment since he was fired.
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Ham
I dunno.. seems he'd finally get it.. never going to have the mog worship and all, at least to the extent he had in twi..
kinda pathetic ending for someone with a little potential, addicted to praise, beating every bush, working every ex-wayer he can find to listen to his "wise counsel"..
even goes as far as to "leak" his stuff here, to shake up a few more phone calls and emails.. "just call him.." no thanks. No more "christian" motivational techniques for me..
The first letter here, I imagine he got a couple hundred phone calls.. the next, maybe twenty five- the last one, I think I could here the crowd booing..
It's like a golf tournament. I imagine if you can't get a ball already on the green in the hole with less than ten puts or so, the crowd starts jeering..
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