a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-"It-is-written" men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word?
Probably should have started here, as this is to me the core of the sense of "squandered" John is probably feeling.
Looking back, it's true that "back in the day" I had the sense that the Way was a place where possibilities could become realities. Some did, some didn't.
Unfortunately the "logistical" support John remembers so well wasn't there to support the grand sweeping vision for such a large dynamic group and the organizational backing...? Hmmm....depends on what it was and who it was. And if VPW saw the potential. LCM - the Way never really got going "under" him unless you consider hurting and confusing people, killing individuality, squashing potential and effectively reducing the participation nearly 100 per cent a "success".
He was a poster-guy for the support and backing - ill equipped to do much of anything outside the regimen of the Way Corps. Once he started trying to do things on his own - look at what happened. Whatever his "plans" were they make a Rubik's cube look simple by comparison, a perfect example of taking the energy and committment of the people he had access to and squandering it.
The "support and backing" actually worked against the dynamics of the group, by restricting the other qualities - diversity, availability, energy, enthusiasm. These qualities were pretty quickly funneled into the available programs and direction of the Way - limited largely to promoting PFAL and the in-house outreach and leadership training programs, WOW Ambassador and Way Corps.
Anyone interested in getting involved had just a few things available to them - take the classes, "go WOW", sign up for the Way Corps and 4-5 years later, pop out to a series of assignments where you were to work within the structure of the Way and at it's direction. That's if you were "serious" and available - otherwise there wasn't a real place in the overall support and backing to fully incorporate someone into a "leadership" role of the Way that hadn't completed one or both of the those primary programs. Which meant you had to go through the campuses where all of that support and backing was in play.
Once the Way began to grow, the vast majority of enthused participants ended up at Emporia or Rome City, to become products of the programs.
How many people "went in" enthused, diverse and available? How many came out and did anything even remotely close to the grand "vision" of the Way?
Not that many, by my count. In fact it seemed that as just a very few years transpired those two locations became mired in problem after problem. Academic excellence? When, who? Who were the highly qualified and experienced instructors providing it? "Spiritual" training on a par with the "schools of the prophets"? When? Who? Lots of people came out, or were kicked out, confused and bewildered at what they were being exposed to.
John was responsible for Emporia, for a few years there, so he knows as well as anyone what it became.
Eventually - for Kriste's Sake - Tinny, New Mexico? Hitch hiking all over the country?
If the energy and availability had been returned to the participants at the level it was being given and with the same honesty and energy, the Way would have had a better shot at becoming something worthwhile.
But it wasn't and it didn't and the reasons are understandable. The real grand vision was missed or stomped out when it managed to poke it's head through - the individual potential of the people.
The logistical support and organization backing of the Way is right at the center of why it failed, somewhere between non-existent and a modern version of "The 3 Stooges Go to the Moon".
I would add that John goes by his real name, has a real email address, and a real phone number that anyone who ponies up their real name may call to discuss their "beefs" with him directly.
I would add that he has no problems dialoging "behind closed doors" where the process is HIDDEN, but refuses to
do so where everyone can see- which are signs of dysfunctional processes.
I would add that he had demonstrated that when people are willing to communicate with him privately,
he uses that communication strictly as an advertising platform for ces/stfi product.
That's not how people of God act if they want to earn or keep my respect- that's how people act if they see me
This is a very interesting discussion. I must say, I am leaning toward "Oldies" for maturity, longsightedness and common sense. However, the rest of you have valid pespectives and I won't discount that.
I left of my own accord the Way in 1988. I was alone, no one influenced me, I just couldn't find any good Biblical reason to stay after I heard what I heard at ROA 87. Didn't understand it all, didn't hear it all, but what I heard stopped me in my tracks and the mosre I thought about it, the more I realized I would be disgracing God if I stayed. That is my opinion, I had no idea about the rest of the story as I have read here. Frankly, I don't believe a lot of it. I have free will so I get to decide what I believe. It's just my opinion.
In 2004, I realized that I missed God, I missed the companionship of another believer and set out to find that, BUT only if it fit with The Word, anything else, I wasn't biting. I called John Lynn. We talked for three hours. He's all talk, and mostly about himself and all the horrible things he did. Mainly with my Corps sisters. I was appalled. I respected this guy which is why I went to him for help in my quest. He talked about himself, CES and not once, not once people, did he inquire about me, how I was. I realized what I was searching for this time, was someone with integrity, and no one with integrity talks about people by name to someone else, particularly in a durogitory fashion. So I crossed him off my list and kept looking. CFFS, it's the Way with a different name. Pass. Then I googled Dr. Wierwille to see what would happen and this site popped up. I was horrified and decided I wasn't ready to deal with all this, I was looking for something, clicked on the links, and found Cortwright family page,
I started clicking away, all the while knowing God was at work within me, and found the man that became my teacher. I always felt like I needed a remedial teacher. And he fit the bill. No nonsense, no religion, and backed everything up with God's Word never asked me to believe it, never coersed me, never forced, never made me feel bad or stupid, he just taught, I just listened and I decided for myself. Frankly some of what he teaches is diametrically opposed to what I learned in PFAL. It was work I had to study, it took time, but as God opened the eyes of my understanding, which is the only way anyone ever understands God's Word, it started to make sense, it fit with the rest of God's Word. Four years later, I am confident in my workmanship ability, I am confident that I to some degree understand God's heart. And this guy had the nerve to call me names, faithful. A Berean.
I was called a lot of things in the Way, but not that. Those were the things I longed for in the ministry, but couldn't pull it off, WHY? Because the Word was not rightly-divided. As that man said in the class, when you don't rightly-divide God's Word you have nothing but error. He was dead right about that.
Another thing I want to bring up is the stealing of songs from other people. The brown song book, everybody remember that? Many of those songs were stolen from Bill Gaither, and had they asked he would have gladly shared them, but no.........can't have anyone outside the Way do music...so they stole it. Got caught too. So I hear.
How many assumed these songs were written by people in the Way? Or that we had copyright releases. Anyone who was Corps - our theme song was stolen also.
.Abide In Me 2.All God's Children 3.At The Foot Of The Cross 4.Because He Lives 5.Broken And Spilled Out 6.Calm Assurance 7.Come, Holy Spirit 8.Created In His Image 9.Dream On 10.Even So, Lord Jesus, Come 11.Feeling At Home In The Presence Of Jesus 12.Fully Alive 13.Gentle Shepherd 14.Get All Excited 15.He Touched Me 16.He's Still The King Of Kings 17.I Am A Promise 18.I Believe In Hill-Mt Calvary 19.I Came To Praise The Lord 20.I Could Never Outlove The Lord 21.I Walked Today Where Jesus Walked 22.I Will Praise Him 23.I Will Serve Thee 24.I'm Something Special 25.I've Been To Calvary 26.I've Just Seen Jesus 27.If It Keeps Getting Better 28.In The Upper Room 29.It Is Finished 30.It Will Be Worth It All 31.It's Beginning To Rain 32.Jesus Is Lord Of All 33.Jesus, I Believe What You Said 34.Jesus, I Heard You Had A Big House 35.Joy Comes In The Morning 36.Learning To Live Like A Child Of The King 37.Let's Just Praise The Lord 38.Lovest Thou Me 39.Man Can't Live By Bread Alone 40.More Of You 41.My Faith Still Holds 42.Next Time We Meet 43.Not By Might, Not By Power 44.Plenty Of Room In The Family 45.Precious Jesus 46.Reaching 47.Redeeming Love 48.Something Beautiful 49.Tell It To Your Children 50.Thanks To Calvary 51.That's What Jesus Means To Me 52.The Church Triumphant 53.The Family Of God 54.The King Is Coming 55.The Longer I Serve Him 56.The Old Rugged Cross Made The Difference 57.The Spirit Of Jesus Is In This Place 58.The World Didn't Give It To Me 59.There's Something About That Name 60.This Could Be The Dawning Of That Day 61.This Is The Day The Lord Hath Made 62.This Is The Time I Must Sing 63.Unshakable Kingdom 64.Upon This Rock 65.Walk On The Water 66.Why Should I Worry Or Fret 67.Worthy The Lamb
These were all written by Bill and Gloria Gaither.
This is a very interesting discussion. I must say, I am leaning toward "Oldies" for maturity, longsightedness and common sense. However, the rest of you have valid pespectives and I won't discount that.
You may have walked in late on a discussion. We've been discussing this on and off
since the original letter back in the late 1980s. Certainly we've been discussing it here for the
past decade in one version or another of the GSC.
If you think it's immature, short-sighted or lacking common sense to draw conclusions
based on personal interactions with someone for 2 decades, and public announcements
they've made of their opinions and positions, well, I will disagree.
Oldies' posts here seem to reflect a position that conclusions can't be drawn
one way or another based on the information at hand.
I disagree strongly.
(snip)
I had no idea about the rest of the story as I have read here. Frankly, I don't believe a lot of it. I have free will so I get to decide what I believe. It's just my opinion.
Few here would begrudge you the right to review things and make up your own mind
on your own time.
I freely admit that, certainly at first, that a lot of things that are said here sound ridiculous,
and almost don't make sense. They don't match the public image we were sold in twi,
and certainly don't sound like things healthy (or even unhealthy) Christians would do.
Over time, I've concluded, however, that looking at the WHOLE picture means that the
claims here are well-supported, both by what twi said, and what eyewitnesses have said.
Perhaps you will come to the same conclusion over time. Perhaps you will not.
Either way, I respect your right to come to your OWN conclusions.
(snip)
I called John Lynn. We talked for three hours. He's all talk, and mostly about himself and all the horrible things he did. Mainly with my Corps sisters. I was appalled. I respected this guy which is why I went to him for help in my quest. He talked about himself, CES and not once, not once people, did he inquire about me, how I was. I realized what I was searching for this time, was someone with integrity, and no one with integrity talks about people by name to someone else, particularly in a durogitory fashion.
(snip)
Actually, sounds like you're agreeing with the rest of us. Based on the information at hand,
you concluded, you perhaps got a commercial, but definitely didn't get what you think
sound Christian counsel would give you.
Thanks for letting me stick my two cents in.
Lucy
That's a lot of what the GSC is about. Thanks for posting.
=======
Oh, and just something I noted about Bill Gaither's song,
"the Family of God"....
the lyrics are notably different than the ones twi used.
Here's what Gaither wrote:
"Chorus
I'm so glad I'm a part of the Family of God,
I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by His Blood!
Joint heirs with Jesus as we travel this sod,
For I'm part of the family,
The Family of God
You will notice we say "brother and sister" 'round here,
It's because we're a family and these are so near;
When one has a heartache, we all share the tears,
And rejoice in each victory in this family so dear.
Chorus
I'm so glad I'm a part of the Family of God,
I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by His Blood!
Joint heirs with Jesus as we travel this sod,
For I'm part of the family,
The Family of God
From the door of an orphanage to the house of the King,
No longer an outcast, a new song I sing;
From rags unto riches, from the weak to the strong,
I'm not worthy to be here, but PRAISE GOD! I belong!
Chorus
I'm so glad I'm a part of the Family of God,
I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by His Blood!
I just can't shake the thought that JAL has a very unhealthy sense of entitlement that I witnessed among other Corps after graduation.
I left TWI for a year approximately a year after graduating. It really helped me in a lot of ways. It was great to not have a nametag color announce who and what I was (or was supposed to be.)
In the "real world" it didn't make a damn bit of difference what I had studied, or that I had studied. It didn't matter to even ONE person that I didn't get up and head straight to the table to read my Bible first thing after my feet hit the floor. All that mattered was if I worked hard and honestly, did I treat my friends well, and was I basically a good person.
But I watched way too many Corps and Rev's take what wasn't their's because they "just believed that Gawd musta wanted them to have it." Afterall, they were the "chosen ones."
(P U K E!)
I keep seeing JAL as wanting to stay insulated in a WayWorld of his own making. It reminds me of Peter Pan - who never wanted to grow up.
How many assumed these songs were written by people in the Way? Or that we had copyright releases. Anyone who was Corps - our theme song was stolen also.
I never believed they were written by people in the Way, I assumed that they were in public domain or had been cleared for copyrights.
I agree doojable, Yet I ask you to consider the fact.
John is NOT alone in the mind set you describe in the above post. As "chosen" ones. Many christians believe this concept.
the fact is the bible itself gives it some credance.
The idea that I think twi promoted that was cult like is ONLY their people had the gateway to admitance .
I am not convinced STF or John Lynn believes they have the ONLY avenue to this mind set. .
Yes I think he sells his material and to be successful one does have to believe in what they have got , but at this point I think John recognizes TRUTH( or insert bible teachings as you like) as a God given ability to His people not just the organization he has founded and worked for.
I really do admire John S.and John L, in the fact they have comminted their entire lifes to what they do as far as bible study and teachings.
If their egos are fed by those who desire to purchase their work; I ask you is that wrong?
I know most folks desire to be rewarded for the work we do. dont you?
I think at times we all can get bloated with self importance; I happen to believe it is God almighty who strikes down the idolitry that lives within all of His children. I also happen to believe John S and John L are not an exemption to this fact of life.
IN the mean time I make no judgements on how one chose to live out his service to mankind or to God, because each are called and blessed as individuals . Jesus is our Saviour not one another.
Pond, the sense of entitlement I referred to is much more insidious.
I've been a picture framer for years. The local mini-Mog wanted some framing done and assumed I would give it to them at a deep discount or even free. I didn't even own the business!
Why this assumption? Well of course it was assumed I would stick my neck out and do something unethical for the MOG... I did not, BTW.
I've got lots of examples... they all revolve around the "Gawd blessed me because I'm oh so special I've got a nametag and a title.... kind of bs."
I like it that my only title is "Mom." It's got it's own rewards... though when I'm trying to get rooms clean I wish I could wave some magic Bible-wand and believe it into existence...;)
As I think about all this, I'm still struck with awe that either of the Johns can look with any respect on the memory of der Victoid.
John S wrote the freaking paper that turned on the lights and sent the adultery roaches scattering. He must know where that idea started. How anyone can still seek the approval of such a man as vp, is beyond me.
JAL is another story. He's an elitist opportunist IMO. He turned his nose up to so many people - both in and out of residence and then when he wants or needs warm bodies that can earn money and fill seats he turns on the "I love you, will the real you please stand for me" bs.
I don't know JS - so I can't comment on him so much - only my surprise that he even cares what vp would think of him today.
JAL I know. I watched my friends buy his "package." Talk about a box of rotting fruit...
I think he needs to see what it's like to live life without a lecturn in front of him.
How people reply react or sell their "frames" is up to them is it not? In your example you said a MOG assumed you would give him a discount on the frames.. did he ask? or did YOU assume it was a need to make him happy? Where you to afraid of his ego to say no? etc.
their in is the issue I think? People have often desired a KING, a person to respond to their personal issues to give them answers to guide them to consel them.
WE have only ONE messiah and it is Jesus Christ.
Do I think some leader can and do take advantage of people?
yes, the abuse of position has been an age old problem in life.
Seek God and all these things shall be added etc...
At some point I believe each person must say who their Saviour is.. Is it christ or JOHN LYNN etc?
it is often blamed on a man/woman/leader when pain or strife or issues because it is more difficult to say i didnt take control and/ortrust God or my own faith. It is easy to say I was led wrong,he/she said i should do that and now I am in trouble so it is their problem not mine I refuse to be responsible because i did as he told me to do. Or I was to afraid of their worldly power as a leader or "MOG" to do what was right.
Jesus says he is our friend , In my life Jesus is very recognizable as a force and nature that abides.
God speaks a great deal about how man can let HIM and each of us down with sin ego etc....WHY are we shocked at what a mess we can make with one another?
WE ARE humans.
As far as John Lynn making your dream for his life without a "lecturn" in front of him come true,, I believe like youand all those who know the LORD he answers the call of Jesus christ not what a man or woman may think is best for him.
I also believe at the end of the day that is who we all will answer to .
How people reply react or sell their "frames" is up to them is it not? In your example you said a MOG assumed you would give him a discount on the frames.. did he ask? or did YOU assume it was a need to make him happy? Where you to afraid of his ego to say no? etc.
Ummmm... he had some prints to frame and asked me to do it. He asked me to give him my discount as an employee. I told him that I couldn't offer any kind of a discount since I didn't own the business. I got the stare that he gave when he was trying to say, "Make it happen."
It didn't happen. I had no problem saying NO to the jerk.
As far as John Lynn making your dream for his life without a "lecturn" in front of him come true,, I believe like you and all those who know the LORD he answers the call of Jesus christ not what a man or woman may think is best for him.
I also believe at the end of the day that is who we all will answer to .
On a side note regarding the "Sing Along the Way" books:
First there was a blue song book. No copyrights, lots of lyric changes.
Somewhere in the early '80's someone decided that copyrights really needed to be gotten (perhaps due to being caught... I don't know and don't really care.)
In any case, the brown book came out and we were instructed to throw out the old blue books. The new books had some songs missing because twi could not obtain the copyrights. Apparently there were objections to the lyrics being changed.
Of course, some songs were so old that the copyrights had expired.
If there was anything else, I wouldn't know. I've since heard most of those songs as they were meant to be.
The point about twi stealing songs isn't surprising in the least. Afterall, when you begin a ministry stealing a whole class, why stop there? <_<
Spiritual blackmail – Spirutal Abuse – Incredible Ego - Appeals to our ego - That's what I see in JAL’s words:
How can something be “one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church” when hardly anyone has ever heard of it and it taught nothing that was not already published, taught and (sorry) available elsewhere?
How can it be that when MOST of what was taught has been proven to be doctrinally wrong? There doesn’t seem to be much meat on the bones of that fish to salvage. Wouldn’t we be better off just moving to another pond with healthy fish?
How can it be all that when so many people have been hurt and so many lives have been destroyed by TWI, its leadership, its doctrine and practices?
He uses controlling and demeaning language regarding victims and threats of “what have you done with what you learned”. All the while implying that if we are not involved with HIS group, we are not doing enough.
I see nothing more important than knowing what Scripture is written to whom, when, and in particular what is written to us as Christians today. The Church’s failure to understand this central truth has led to its trying to live in accordance with directives pertaining to other people at other times.
Actually, other churches are involved with DOING the simple bottom line as laid out by Jesus – “Love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength….. Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two hang all the law and prophets.”
No doubt there are also many who recognize that they heard the Word like they never had, who have allowed the Lord Jesus to heal any wounds they suffered in TWI, and who have since experienced spiritual growth far beyond what they ever imagined back in “the good old days.”
All I can think of regarding this is Goey’s signature “Many of my fondest memories in TWI... never really happened.” and, then there’s also the question of whether or not it was worth it given all the lives that have been destroyed.
Before I left Dottie Moynihan told me that I would soon see TWI back to the “good ole days”, so JAL is not the only one who is desperately holding onto the listing deck of the Titanic. (Thanks for such a poignant analogy, T-Bone)
How can something be “one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church” when hardly anyone has ever heard of it and it taught nothing that was not already published, taught and (sorry) available elsewhere?
It may have been garbage but it was OUR UNIQUE COMBINATION OF GARBAGE. Nobody else put together that garbage quite the way VP did (since the first century!). To quote the late George Carlin, "If you nail together two things that have never been nailed together before, some shmuck will buy it from you!"
It may have been garbage but it was OUR UNIQUE COMBINATION OF GARBAGE. Nobody else put together that garbage quite the way VP did (since the first century!). To quote the late George Carlin, "If you nail together two things that have never been nailed together before, some shmuck will buy it from you!"
Oh good gawd! Now all I can think about is how "retro" the offshoots are.
You know - like the resurgence of hula hoops, go-go boots, troll dolls, pet rocks.
It's almost as if I can hear JAL saying, "Hurree, hurree, hurree... Step right up and be the first on your block to get a green card. And if you're one of the first, I'll throw in one of these other fine gifts."
one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church
why can't people just be normal, ordinary..
what's the big deal? I really think being part of an organization that holds all the aces defines his existence.. even tried walking on water, raising the dead..
did he ever get any documentable results?
that didn't work so well.. hmm. maybe we oughter try personal prophecies.. can't deny lack of "results" there, can we?
I think modern christian hucksterism lies in this so called prophetic movement.. one doesn't HAVE to produce ANYTHING. Anything tangible, that is.. and the "prophet" can still wallow in self-importance.
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geisha779
The letter of Assumptions--by St. John the divine of Indiana This is what happens when people isolate themselves from the Christian community at large. No accountibility. John, get out there and mee
geisha779
Word Wolf--That. . . was. . . an. . . AWESOME read!! Thank-you for that effort. Astute very astute!
TheInvisibleDan
Thanks Excy for reminding me that "The Twilight Zone" marathon is still going.
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socks
Probably should have started here, as this is to me the core of the sense of "squandered" John is probably feeling.
Looking back, it's true that "back in the day" I had the sense that the Way was a place where possibilities could become realities. Some did, some didn't.
Unfortunately the "logistical" support John remembers so well wasn't there to support the grand sweeping vision for such a large dynamic group and the organizational backing...? Hmmm....depends on what it was and who it was. And if VPW saw the potential. LCM - the Way never really got going "under" him unless you consider hurting and confusing people, killing individuality, squashing potential and effectively reducing the participation nearly 100 per cent a "success".
He was a poster-guy for the support and backing - ill equipped to do much of anything outside the regimen of the Way Corps. Once he started trying to do things on his own - look at what happened. Whatever his "plans" were they make a Rubik's cube look simple by comparison, a perfect example of taking the energy and committment of the people he had access to and squandering it.
The "support and backing" actually worked against the dynamics of the group, by restricting the other qualities - diversity, availability, energy, enthusiasm. These qualities were pretty quickly funneled into the available programs and direction of the Way - limited largely to promoting PFAL and the in-house outreach and leadership training programs, WOW Ambassador and Way Corps.
Anyone interested in getting involved had just a few things available to them - take the classes, "go WOW", sign up for the Way Corps and 4-5 years later, pop out to a series of assignments where you were to work within the structure of the Way and at it's direction. That's if you were "serious" and available - otherwise there wasn't a real place in the overall support and backing to fully incorporate someone into a "leadership" role of the Way that hadn't completed one or both of the those primary programs. Which meant you had to go through the campuses where all of that support and backing was in play.
Once the Way began to grow, the vast majority of enthused participants ended up at Emporia or Rome City, to become products of the programs.
How many people "went in" enthused, diverse and available? How many came out and did anything even remotely close to the grand "vision" of the Way?
Not that many, by my count. In fact it seemed that as just a very few years transpired those two locations became mired in problem after problem. Academic excellence? When, who? Who were the highly qualified and experienced instructors providing it? "Spiritual" training on a par with the "schools of the prophets"? When? Who? Lots of people came out, or were kicked out, confused and bewildered at what they were being exposed to.
John was responsible for Emporia, for a few years there, so he knows as well as anyone what it became.
Eventually - for Kriste's Sake - Tinny, New Mexico? Hitch hiking all over the country?
If the energy and availability had been returned to the participants at the level it was being given and with the same honesty and energy, the Way would have had a better shot at becoming something worthwhile.
But it wasn't and it didn't and the reasons are understandable. The real grand vision was missed or stomped out when it managed to poke it's head through - the individual potential of the people.
The logistical support and organization backing of the Way is right at the center of why it failed, somewhere between non-existent and a modern version of "The 3 Stooges Go to the Moon".
A reality check is badly needed, methinks...
Anyhoo - enough of that.
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excathedra
hey (((((((((((( danny ))))))))))))
also, i want to clarify that responses here are excellent
it's that other thing that's twilight zonie to me
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now I see
Great post Socks, what you said hit the nail on the head.
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WordWolf
I would add that he has no problems dialoging "behind closed doors" where the process is HIDDEN, but refuses to
do so where everyone can see- which are signs of dysfunctional processes.
I would add that he had demonstrated that when people are willing to communicate with him privately,
he uses that communication strictly as an advertising platform for ces/stfi product.
That's not how people of God act if they want to earn or keep my respect- that's how people act if they see me
as a source of income.
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lucyvanpelt
This is a very interesting discussion. I must say, I am leaning toward "Oldies" for maturity, longsightedness and common sense. However, the rest of you have valid pespectives and I won't discount that.
I left of my own accord the Way in 1988. I was alone, no one influenced me, I just couldn't find any good Biblical reason to stay after I heard what I heard at ROA 87. Didn't understand it all, didn't hear it all, but what I heard stopped me in my tracks and the mosre I thought about it, the more I realized I would be disgracing God if I stayed. That is my opinion, I had no idea about the rest of the story as I have read here. Frankly, I don't believe a lot of it. I have free will so I get to decide what I believe. It's just my opinion.
In 2004, I realized that I missed God, I missed the companionship of another believer and set out to find that, BUT only if it fit with The Word, anything else, I wasn't biting. I called John Lynn. We talked for three hours. He's all talk, and mostly about himself and all the horrible things he did. Mainly with my Corps sisters. I was appalled. I respected this guy which is why I went to him for help in my quest. He talked about himself, CES and not once, not once people, did he inquire about me, how I was. I realized what I was searching for this time, was someone with integrity, and no one with integrity talks about people by name to someone else, particularly in a durogitory fashion. So I crossed him off my list and kept looking. CFFS, it's the Way with a different name. Pass. Then I googled Dr. Wierwille to see what would happen and this site popped up. I was horrified and decided I wasn't ready to deal with all this, I was looking for something, clicked on the links, and found Cortwright family page,
I started clicking away, all the while knowing God was at work within me, and found the man that became my teacher. I always felt like I needed a remedial teacher. And he fit the bill. No nonsense, no religion, and backed everything up with God's Word never asked me to believe it, never coersed me, never forced, never made me feel bad or stupid, he just taught, I just listened and I decided for myself. Frankly some of what he teaches is diametrically opposed to what I learned in PFAL. It was work I had to study, it took time, but as God opened the eyes of my understanding, which is the only way anyone ever understands God's Word, it started to make sense, it fit with the rest of God's Word. Four years later, I am confident in my workmanship ability, I am confident that I to some degree understand God's heart. And this guy had the nerve to call me names, faithful. A Berean.
I was called a lot of things in the Way, but not that. Those were the things I longed for in the ministry, but couldn't pull it off, WHY? Because the Word was not rightly-divided. As that man said in the class, when you don't rightly-divide God's Word you have nothing but error. He was dead right about that.
Another thing I want to bring up is the stealing of songs from other people. The brown song book, everybody remember that? Many of those songs were stolen from Bill Gaither, and had they asked he would have gladly shared them, but no.........can't have anyone outside the Way do music...so they stole it. Got caught too. So I hear.
Thanks for letting me stick my two cents in.
Lucy
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lucyvanpelt
How many assumed these songs were written by people in the Way? Or that we had copyright releases. Anyone who was Corps - our theme song was stolen also.
.Abide In Me 2.All God's Children 3.At The Foot Of The Cross 4.Because He Lives 5.Broken And Spilled Out 6.Calm Assurance 7.Come, Holy Spirit 8.Created In His Image 9.Dream On 10.Even So, Lord Jesus, Come 11.Feeling At Home In The Presence Of Jesus 12.Fully Alive 13.Gentle Shepherd 14.Get All Excited 15.He Touched Me 16.He's Still The King Of Kings 17.I Am A Promise 18.I Believe In Hill-Mt Calvary 19.I Came To Praise The Lord 20.I Could Never Outlove The Lord 21.I Walked Today Where Jesus Walked 22.I Will Praise Him 23.I Will Serve Thee 24.I'm Something Special 25.I've Been To Calvary 26.I've Just Seen Jesus 27.If It Keeps Getting Better 28.In The Upper Room 29.It Is Finished 30.It Will Be Worth It All 31.It's Beginning To Rain 32.Jesus Is Lord Of All 33.Jesus, I Believe What You Said 34.Jesus, I Heard You Had A Big House 35.Joy Comes In The Morning 36.Learning To Live Like A Child Of The King 37.Let's Just Praise The Lord 38.Lovest Thou Me 39.Man Can't Live By Bread Alone 40.More Of You 41.My Faith Still Holds 42.Next Time We Meet 43.Not By Might, Not By Power 44.Plenty Of Room In The Family 45.Precious Jesus 46.Reaching 47.Redeeming Love 48.Something Beautiful 49.Tell It To Your Children 50.Thanks To Calvary 51.That's What Jesus Means To Me 52.The Church Triumphant 53.The Family Of God 54.The King Is Coming 55.The Longer I Serve Him 56.The Old Rugged Cross Made The Difference 57.The Spirit Of Jesus Is In This Place 58.The World Didn't Give It To Me 59.There's Something About That Name 60.This Could Be The Dawning Of That Day 61.This Is The Day The Lord Hath Made 62.This Is The Time I Must Sing 63.Unshakable Kingdom 64.Upon This Rock 65.Walk On The Water 66.Why Should I Worry Or Fret 67.Worthy The Lamb
These were all written by Bill and Gloria Gaither.
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WordWolf
You may have walked in late on a discussion. We've been discussing this on and off
since the original letter back in the late 1980s. Certainly we've been discussing it here for the
past decade in one version or another of the GSC.
If you think it's immature, short-sighted or lacking common sense to draw conclusions
based on personal interactions with someone for 2 decades, and public announcements
they've made of their opinions and positions, well, I will disagree.
Oldies' posts here seem to reflect a position that conclusions can't be drawn
one way or another based on the information at hand.
I disagree strongly.
Few here would begrudge you the right to review things and make up your own mindon your own time.
I freely admit that, certainly at first, that a lot of things that are said here sound ridiculous,
and almost don't make sense. They don't match the public image we were sold in twi,
and certainly don't sound like things healthy (or even unhealthy) Christians would do.
Over time, I've concluded, however, that looking at the WHOLE picture means that the
claims here are well-supported, both by what twi said, and what eyewitnesses have said.
Perhaps you will come to the same conclusion over time. Perhaps you will not.
Either way, I respect your right to come to your OWN conclusions.
Actually, sounds like you're agreeing with the rest of us. Based on the information at hand,
you concluded, you perhaps got a commercial, but definitely didn't get what you think
sound Christian counsel would give you.
That's a lot of what the GSC is about. Thanks for posting.
=======
Oh, and just something I noted about Bill Gaither's song,
"the Family of God"....
the lyrics are notably different than the ones twi used.
Here's what Gaither wrote:
"Chorus
I'm so glad I'm a part of the Family of God,
I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by His Blood!
Joint heirs with Jesus as we travel this sod,
For I'm part of the family,
The Family of God
You will notice we say "brother and sister" 'round here,
It's because we're a family and these are so near;
When one has a heartache, we all share the tears,
And rejoice in each victory in this family so dear.
Chorus
I'm so glad I'm a part of the Family of God,
I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by His Blood!
Joint heirs with Jesus as we travel this sod,
For I'm part of the family,
The Family of God
From the door of an orphanage to the house of the King,
No longer an outcast, a new song I sing;
From rags unto riches, from the weak to the strong,
I'm not worthy to be here, but PRAISE GOD! I belong!
Chorus
I'm so glad I'm a part of the Family of God,
I've been washed in the fountain, cleansed by His Blood!
Joint heirs with Jesus as we travel this sod,
For I'm part of the family,
The Family of God
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doojable
I just can't shake the thought that JAL has a very unhealthy sense of entitlement that I witnessed among other Corps after graduation.
I left TWI for a year approximately a year after graduating. It really helped me in a lot of ways. It was great to not have a nametag color announce who and what I was (or was supposed to be.)
In the "real world" it didn't make a damn bit of difference what I had studied, or that I had studied. It didn't matter to even ONE person that I didn't get up and head straight to the table to read my Bible first thing after my feet hit the floor. All that mattered was if I worked hard and honestly, did I treat my friends well, and was I basically a good person.
But I watched way too many Corps and Rev's take what wasn't their's because they "just believed that Gawd musta wanted them to have it." Afterall, they were the "chosen ones."
(P U K E!)
I keep seeing JAL as wanting to stay insulated in a WayWorld of his own making. It reminds me of Peter Pan - who never wanted to grow up.
Close down Neverland John.
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WhiteDove
I never believed they were written by people in the Way, I assumed that they were in public domain or had been cleared for copyrights.
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pond
I agree doojable, Yet I ask you to consider the fact.
John is NOT alone in the mind set you describe in the above post. As "chosen" ones. Many christians believe this concept.
the fact is the bible itself gives it some credance.
The idea that I think twi promoted that was cult like is ONLY their people had the gateway to admitance .
I am not convinced STF or John Lynn believes they have the ONLY avenue to this mind set. .
Yes I think he sells his material and to be successful one does have to believe in what they have got , but at this point I think John recognizes TRUTH( or insert bible teachings as you like) as a God given ability to His people not just the organization he has founded and worked for.
I really do admire John S.and John L, in the fact they have comminted their entire lifes to what they do as far as bible study and teachings.
If their egos are fed by those who desire to purchase their work; I ask you is that wrong?
I know most folks desire to be rewarded for the work we do. dont you?
I think at times we all can get bloated with self importance; I happen to believe it is God almighty who strikes down the idolitry that lives within all of His children. I also happen to believe John S and John L are not an exemption to this fact of life.
IN the mean time I make no judgements on how one chose to live out his service to mankind or to God, because each are called and blessed as individuals . Jesus is our Saviour not one another.
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doojable
Pond, the sense of entitlement I referred to is much more insidious.
I've been a picture framer for years. The local mini-Mog wanted some framing done and assumed I would give it to them at a deep discount or even free. I didn't even own the business!
Why this assumption? Well of course it was assumed I would stick my neck out and do something unethical for the MOG... I did not, BTW.
I've got lots of examples... they all revolve around the "Gawd blessed me because I'm oh so special I've got a nametag and a title.... kind of bs."
I like it that my only title is "Mom." It's got it's own rewards... though when I'm trying to get rooms clean I wish I could wave some magic Bible-wand and believe it into existence...;)
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doojable
As I think about all this, I'm still struck with awe that either of the Johns can look with any respect on the memory of der Victoid.
John S wrote the freaking paper that turned on the lights and sent the adultery roaches scattering. He must know where that idea started. How anyone can still seek the approval of such a man as vp, is beyond me.
JAL is another story. He's an elitist opportunist IMO. He turned his nose up to so many people - both in and out of residence and then when he wants or needs warm bodies that can earn money and fill seats he turns on the "I love you, will the real you please stand for me" bs.
I don't know JS - so I can't comment on him so much - only my surprise that he even cares what vp would think of him today.
JAL I know. I watched my friends buy his "package." Talk about a box of rotting fruit...
I think he needs to see what it's like to live life without a lecturn in front of him.
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pond
How people reply react or sell their "frames" is up to them is it not? In your example you said a MOG assumed you would give him a discount on the frames.. did he ask? or did YOU assume it was a need to make him happy? Where you to afraid of his ego to say no? etc.
their in is the issue I think? People have often desired a KING, a person to respond to their personal issues to give them answers to guide them to consel them.
WE have only ONE messiah and it is Jesus Christ.
Do I think some leader can and do take advantage of people?
yes, the abuse of position has been an age old problem in life.
Seek God and all these things shall be added etc...
At some point I believe each person must say who their Saviour is.. Is it christ or JOHN LYNN etc?
it is often blamed on a man/woman/leader when pain or strife or issues because it is more difficult to say i didnt take control and/ortrust God or my own faith. It is easy to say I was led wrong,he/she said i should do that and now I am in trouble so it is their problem not mine I refuse to be responsible because i did as he told me to do. Or I was to afraid of their worldly power as a leader or "MOG" to do what was right.
Jesus says he is our friend , In my life Jesus is very recognizable as a force and nature that abides.
God speaks a great deal about how man can let HIM and each of us down with sin ego etc....WHY are we shocked at what a mess we can make with one another?
WE ARE humans.
As far as John Lynn making your dream for his life without a "lecturn" in front of him come true,, I believe like youand all those who know the LORD he answers the call of Jesus christ not what a man or woman may think is best for him.
I also believe at the end of the day that is who we all will answer to .
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doojable
Ummmm... he had some prints to frame and asked me to do it. He asked me to give him my discount as an employee. I told him that I couldn't offer any kind of a discount since I didn't own the business. I got the stare that he gave when he was trying to say, "Make it happen."
It didn't happen. I had no problem saying NO to the jerk.
It's not my "dream." It's my suggestion.
I'm not convinced that the call isn't on hold...
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lucyvanpelt
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doojable
On a side note regarding the "Sing Along the Way" books:
First there was a blue song book. No copyrights, lots of lyric changes.
Somewhere in the early '80's someone decided that copyrights really needed to be gotten (perhaps due to being caught... I don't know and don't really care.)
In any case, the brown book came out and we were instructed to throw out the old blue books. The new books had some songs missing because twi could not obtain the copyrights. Apparently there were objections to the lyrics being changed.
Of course, some songs were so old that the copyrights had expired.
If there was anything else, I wouldn't know. I've since heard most of those songs as they were meant to be.
The point about twi stealing songs isn't surprising in the least. Afterall, when you begin a ministry stealing a whole class, why stop there? <_<
BTW - who's Jake?
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Belle
Spiritual blackmail – Spirutal Abuse – Incredible Ego - Appeals to our ego - That's what I see in JAL’s words:
How can something be “one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church” when hardly anyone has ever heard of it and it taught nothing that was not already published, taught and (sorry) available elsewhere?
How can it be that when MOST of what was taught has been proven to be doctrinally wrong? There doesn’t seem to be much meat on the bones of that fish to salvage. Wouldn’t we be better off just moving to another pond with healthy fish?
How can it be all that when so many people have been hurt and so many lives have been destroyed by TWI, its leadership, its doctrine and practices?
He uses controlling and demeaning language regarding victims and threats of “what have you done with what you learned”. All the while implying that if we are not involved with HIS group, we are not doing enough.
Actually, other churches are involved with DOING the simple bottom line as laid out by Jesus – “Love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength….. Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two hang all the law and prophets.”All I can think of regarding this is Goey’s signature “Many of my fondest memories in TWI... never really happened.” and, then there’s also the question of whether or not it was worth it given all the lives that have been destroyed.
Before I left Dottie Moynihan told me that I would soon see TWI back to the “good ole days”, so JAL is not the only one who is desperately holding onto the listing deck of the Titanic. (Thanks for such a poignant analogy, T-Bone)
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Mark Clarke
It may have been garbage but it was OUR UNIQUE COMBINATION OF GARBAGE. Nobody else put together that garbage quite the way VP did (since the first century!). To quote the late George Carlin, "If you nail together two things that have never been nailed together before, some shmuck will buy it from you!"
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Ham
by Spirit, a little-known group, at least today..
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doojable
Oh good gawd! Now all I can think about is how "retro" the offshoots are.
You know - like the resurgence of hula hoops, go-go boots, troll dolls, pet rocks.
It's almost as if I can hear JAL saying, "Hurree, hurree, hurree... Step right up and be the first on your block to get a green card. And if you're one of the first, I'll throw in one of these other fine gifts."
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waysider
One for the squirrel
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Ham
I already have a pet rock. In fact, I've got a litter of them..
one is a three hundred granite.. a hundred pound sandstone.. and several dozen in the twenty to fifty pound category..
no thanks jl, I don't need any more..
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Ham
why can't people just be normal, ordinary..
what's the big deal? I really think being part of an organization that holds all the aces defines his existence.. even tried walking on water, raising the dead..
did he ever get any documentable results?
that didn't work so well.. hmm. maybe we oughter try personal prophecies.. can't deny lack of "results" there, can we?
I think modern christian hucksterism lies in this so called prophetic movement.. one doesn't HAVE to produce ANYTHING. Anything tangible, that is.. and the "prophet" can still wallow in self-importance.
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