plus the same old "exhortation".. "what are you DOING to move da verd.."
... same old come on ... "piece of candy ... go for a ride?"
let me lead you into moving duh wuhrd ... you know how sweet it is to do gawd's will ... and you aren't gettin' it now ... but I will give it to you baby ... I'm your candy man ... I'm your cement mixer ... :o
(I was sure the cement mixer thing was part of a song .. can't find it now ... oh well lol)
OK .. James Tayolor, that's what I thought ... anyway .. jalvis is still trying to be da mahn ... despite his half paragraph of humble pie ...
Well, I'm a steamroller, baby
I'm bound to roll all over you
Yes, I'm a steamroller now, baby
I'm bound to roll all over you
I'm gonna inject your soul with some sweet rock 'n roll
I again read the list of differences with twi, and what caught my attention, again, was how many of the items on that list has been discussed and complained about here on GS Cafe! Good changes, positive changes for the better. Yet Lynn still gets slammed and disparaged. This proves to me one thing: that no matter how many changes are made, there will be endless criticisms, endless condemnation, endless complaining about something. It occurs to me that change will never be enough for those with an ax to grind. They want to use that ax. I would imagine that even if twi itself made these changes, the relentless attack machine wouldn't miss a beat. This attack machine is a form of godliness that I find repulsive. JAL is a brother in Christ, I wish him well always.
Well said Oldiesman,
I also applaud all of those "in top leadership positions" which I understand included more than just JL, who did have the courage to take a stand to expose what they sincerely believed then and now was not of God. I also find it interesting that hatred, discord, jealousy, dissensions, factions & envy also makes the list along with sexual immorality in Heb 5:19-21. Might as well add Heb 5:15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. For the life of me I cannot accept that JL, JS or RD lay awake at night thinking of ways to hurt and destroy peoples lives. For those interested in healing. I wish you all well.
I am not a disciple of any of them but I have learned much from all of them.
For the life of me I cannot accept that JL, JS or RD lay awake at night thinking of ways to hurt and destroy peoples lives. For those interested in healing. I wish you all well.
Do you think they "lay awake at night thinking of ways to hurt and destroy peoples lives "back in the day" when they were doing and saying about the same as they are doing and saying now? Back when they were hurting and destroying people's lives?
Every man is right in his own eyes ... right?
If they were so blind back then ... when did they become so wise? The point is, Jalvis has reverted to praising vp ... indicating jalvis has regressed, not progressed. And I remember some letter from ces (and I wasn't even part of CES) about jalvis problems ...
Moving on ... I think most splinters have not gone far ... those that praise a sexual predator, plagiarist, etc ... have not changed much ... and most were slow to change at all, they have just tried to collect the money that used to go to TWI ... it is pathetic ...
I'm completely removed from any of these groups, and have no axe to grind ... but I feel free to speak my mind ... it might actually help one soul that might get caught up in the same old tripe ...
[JAL should get out more. He, apparently, has never even heard of BG Leonard, just to name ONE.
Is it stretching credibility to suppose that NOBODY ELSE taught accurately BESIDES Leonard?
I think it is. Leonard himself wasn't even acknowledged....]
And God forbid we should suggest that Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard were wrong in the first place!
This whole "since the first century Church" thing was a fiction from vpw. That anyone is still pushing it is a sad statement
on behalf of the person pushing it. Has he truly never read through the book of Acts?
There was no "scholarship", no concern about translations from Hebrew to Greek, no intellectual teachings.
In fact, the "scholarship" of that day, the Scribes, were condemned by Jesus as being hypocrites. Jesus taught the heart of the Law, which was serving God and people out of a true heart of love rather than the letter of the Law. But we rarely, if ever, saw that because we rarely read the Gospels, since they "weren't addressed to us."
They had RELATIONSHIPS-with each other, with God. They were concerned with LIVES, with LOVE, and the only money collected was to feed poor Christians. They were decentralized. They were inclusionary- Jesus said anyone who wasn't against him was
for him. twi's approaches were the opposite of those of the first-century Church.
Further, the entire claim is silly to those who've put in a little look into history.
The first-century Christian church did not have Gutenberg's printing press. Until the 2nd century, copies of the books of the
New Testament were nearly nonexistent. So "the Word like they knew it in the first century" was the TORAH, the OLD TESTAMENT-
and "The Word" as existed IN THEIR HEARTS, not ON THEIR PAGES.
To clarify, the "Word" that was in their hearts was the Word that their Lord Jesus spoke to them. His words were recited and repeated among them so as not to forget them. And a bit later Paul elaborated on some things, by revelation from Jesus, and he wrote them in letters which circulated in the first century. But it did not contradict or set aside what Jesus had taught.
Interestingly enough, we always talked about "The Word, The Word, The Word!" as if it were a synonym for the Bible. But we didn't even have that right. The Bible rarely if ever refers to itself as "The Word." It calls itself "The Scriptures." When it speaks of "The Word" it is referring specifically to the message that was communicated verbally, and in the person of Jesus, as well as the written Scriptures. That overall message is about God's plan to put the world right and have His Son rule a restored earth. This was Jesus' primary message, so if anyone is "teaching the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century" it's people who are getting back to the Gospel of the Kingdom. And there are many different groups as well as individuals who are doing so. It's not limited to one group led by a charismatic leader who got special revelation.
[HEY!
If you're still claiming you "knew the Word like it hasn't been known since the first-century Church",
YOU ARE STILL TOO PROUD OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE.
If you're still claiming OTHER Christians don't have it, but your group does,
YOU ARE STILL TOO ARROGANT TOWARD OTHER CHRISTIANS.]
Well put!
D) That which was written before the Epistles was "for our learning". The Gospels address the time before Pentecost,
but are written TO Christians-the Gospels were written AFTER the Epistles. Don't confuse their order in the book with their
order of writing. Even vpw said Thessalonians was the first Epistle written, but the last one in the order in the book.
We always read that verse (Rom. 15:4) as if it said that what was written aforetime was "for our learning ONLY" but it doesn't say that. The Greek word for "learning" there is didaskalia which means "doctrine" or right believing. It is the same word that is translated "doctrine" in II Tim. 3:16 (all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness..."). There is nothing in this verse that says the Old Testament or Gospels are not addressed to us.
In a similar way we were told that Jesus was a only a minister to the Jews, by quoting Rom. 15:8, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers..." But it doesn't say he was ONLY a minister to the circumcision. As VP liked to chant, "Why O why don't they read the next verse?" Verse 9 reads, "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name." The whole "addressed to a different administration" angle was (and still is) a devilish lie to separate Jesus from his words which we must believe and live by. I am somewhat ashamed that I didn't see that all those years.
Furthermore, since JAL took vpw's word that the Gospels are not written to Christians at all,
I question just how accurate OR useful the distinctions are between "to whom." Few Christians read the Old Testament and claim it's of equal relevance to Christians as the New Testament-all of which was written after Pentecost, and is thus written TO us,
no matter what vpw said.]
The Old Testament is vital in understanding the New, though. The major themes of the whole Bible are laid out in the OT as a foundation. It is precisely because people are not as familiar with the OT that they misunderstand the NT.
Like I, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, but I submit that until 1987 there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there. That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.
[Perhaps.
On the other hand, where else outside of twi would you have found a supposed Christian organization where its founder claimed
to have heard from God when he didn't, where he funnelled the money for his creature comforts and his vices,
where the progress of genuine Christians (Leonard, the Jesus People) was STRANGLED to strengthen the organization,
where its founder required leadership candidates to write a biography which was then used to help select which of them
he was going to rape or molest, or where he implied all his doctrines came directly from God while some of them
came from conspiracy/rumor mills? All while claiming everyone else walked in error?
In all this, The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly corrupted Christian movement.
It takes a backseat to the Branch Davidians, but it also damaged more people than Koresh's group did.
But let's not give them the satisfaction of being "the number one cult in America" again. I remember we used to gloat over it as if it were an honor. TWI was one of many cults that used those same practices. They were ALL corrupt.
[And many more recognize that vpw and twi was overblown and didn't match its hype, but think we learned SOME accurate
things, went on to Jesus healing us, maturing in our understanding, and grew once we were free of the mental straitjacket
of the twi paradigm. Many of us who can say that have posted, or currently post, at the GSC.]
I'd say that's a good summary.
As a fellow PFAL grad, I identify with you, and have an affinity for you and a desire to encourage you to take advantage of the truth you once heard, if you are not already doing so. Along with me, you will one day stand before our precious Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward you according to how you have lived your life as a Christian. In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
[Jesus' question will be dependent upon our intellectual knowledge?
Chapter and verse, please.]
Actually, I don't think he was saying that. He was saying that Jesus' question would focus on what we DID with whatever we knew. That's probably closer to the truth, but sadly many ex-Way spinoffs are still following the training of their teacher. Like him, they teach one thing but don't practice it themselves. But this is nothing new. The Pharisees did the same thing and Jesus called them hypocrites.
I have great respect for JAL and his communication skills. I pray that he can humble himself to see where TWI and CES/STFI fall short. I know from experience that it isn't easy to do, after all those years of feeling smug because "WE ARE RIGHT!" Sometimes I think God may have allowed me to go through that period and then come to the realization of how wrong they were (and how wrong I was) in order to keep me humble. I don't know everything, but I am getting to know Him who does.
Lest we not forget, these letters of "spiritual" advice are coming from the man who promoted the spideyville personal prophecies, the momentus therapy, and who put away of his wife, all in the recent past.
How can he think he has built a stable spiritual platform in his life to warrent the authoritative tone and message of these letters?....inconceivable...
I think more people here feel sorry for and have empathy toward JAL more than anything else, I really don't think he has a clue about his audience here nor why we even bother to reply to him.
For the life of me I cannot accept that JL, JS or RD lay awake at night thinking of ways to hurt and destroy peoples lives.
I don't think they were planning it that way. They were trained by VPW and like so many other Corps grads, they don't know how to run a ministry any other way. The Corps never had any "real" training in Christian leadership, but many of them would not be able to admit it to themselves (understandably). Yet those few that could humble themselves have grown to varying degrees. That's why it is so disappointing to see JAL going back to lauding VPW. Either he is totally blind to the problems (doctrinal as well as practical) or he is not being honest. I don't care which; either one is sad.
Maybe just a small question.. what the h*ll does he want from us?
Maybe HE should go door to door witnessing.."hey mister, what would it be worth to know da word of god unlike it's been known since the first century.."
"wouldn't you like some peace in life, prosperity? Healing? We can show you how.."
Oh. He wants ME to go..
"Hey mistah.. how'd you like to know da word like it hasn't been known since the earth cooled? We have books.. one gawd, one lord.. and we even have resources to show you why bad things happen to good people.. we'll even show you how to be a prophet (ahem) prophecy..""
Shoot.. I have ALL KINDS of time.. sure.. I'd volunteer..
"I will elaborate upon why that is true from a doctrinal standpoint, but when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word?"
For Readability...this sentence is completely unintelligble. The whole letter calculates this way which is why it seems like rambling.
Hey John, regarding your statement here at the end of your letter, “What did you do with what you knew?”, maybe it should be God and the bible itself that inspires us to do godly things?
I think for 30+ years there's been a habit of "leaders" and twi people telling others what they think they should do, which is not their job. Rather, I think its God's and the individual person's job to decide what they are going to do in response to His Word. I think Socks got it right in his post:
My take - a "new" form or pastoring is desirable, which is really an "old" form, one that places the emphasis on the simplest values of a Christian faith and not endless drilling and adherence to "new" rightly divided or "corrected" teachings and Flavors-of-the-year doctrinal pushes - one that goes to bringing people one on one to Christ, through simple day to day help, the stuff people need that betters people's lives and leads to their own relationship with God and Christ, and enjoying that to whatever degree, with others.
Why not just let every man decide for himself what he's gonna do with his own life, especially the ones who were under the twi regime, they all know enough to be able to just simply pick up the bible and read it for themselves to their own hearts desire, and then its really up to them what they're going to do with it, rather than an artificial response that's not from God.
Some of my major regrets from my time with twi stem from doing things and involving myself with programs that were inspired from the group think twi fervor and the desires of vpw to regulate, mass market, and systematically formulate the movement of God's Word. I think especially, in light of our mutual past twi history, that God shouldn't be limited these ways, and maybe the concepts, bred in twi, regarding authoritative leadership should be examined.
a whole army of fifty, sixty some year old"volunteers" going door to door witnessing for the greatness of stiffi..
doesn't this seem at least partly troubling to anyone other than me?
oh yes!...it's troubling to many of us...and I've sat down with JAL and talked to him...it seems to me that twi gave this guy a platform...they gave him "legitimacy"...and now he wants to recapture it...put it in a bottle and admire it.
I don't see where he is focusing on "ministering to people"...I see him trying to justify himself and recruit. I can see through this offshoot crap like a cheap suit. It IS pathetic, to say the least.
Is he really concerned about our "spiritual well being"?...or is he desperately trying to find followers?...Which is it John?...are you afraid of getting a REAL job like the rest of us have?...
oh yes!...it's troubling to many of us...and I've sat down with JAL and talked to him...it seems to me that twi gave this guy a platform...they gave him "legitimacy"...and now he wants to recapture it...put it in a bottle and admire it.
I don't see where he is focusing on "ministering to people"...I see him trying to justify himself and recruit. I can see through this offshoot crap like a cheap suit. It IS pathetic, to say the least.
Is he really concerned about our "spiritual well being"?...or is he desperately trying to find followers?...Which is it John?...are you afraid of getting a REAL job like the rest of us have?...
Again peoples ignorance of the subject shows, I'll just point out that John has a real job....... again for the gazillionth time. If you want to take cheap shots at least do some research before opening your mouth. And while I'm adding opinions I'll add one more . Although not a CES devote I watched for many years as John criss crossed the USA and other places. I can't see where his attempts to help people brought him any great gain, I doubt it was much fun living on the road. If for nothing else I respect John for his service, I saw no one else offering anywhere close to what he did .
My purpose is to set forth a much more redemptive view of The Way than what I have thus far read from others with “ex-Way vision.” In some ways, this is a sequel to my March, 1988 letter in which I blew the whistle about what was then going on in TWI.
Seems like *the real you* is standing up for vpw/twi once again.
Again peoples ignorance of the subject shows, I'll just point out that John has a real job....... again for the gazillionth time. If you want to take cheap shots at least do some research before opening your mouth. And while I'm adding opinions I'll add one more . Although not a CES devote I watched for many years as John criss crossed the USA and other places. I can't see where his attempts to help people brought him any great gain, I doubt it was much fun living on the road. If for nothing else I respect John for his service, I saw no one else offering anywhere close to what he did .
I would add that John goes by his real name, has a real email address, and a real phone number that anyone who ponies up their real name may call to discuss their "beefs" with him directly.
.....everything we were taught. I speak with great thankfulness for the truth I heard in The Way (hereinafter TWI), with no doubt that God led me to it, and then away from it.
Does God lead someone to "light"......and then lead that person AWAY from "light?"
Or, does the "feast at the table" one time nourish......and another time sicken those wayfaring "guests" who once were invited in?
In the bizarre world of doublespeak......it seems to make sense to vpw apologists.
All I see in this most recent letter is a middle aged man, trying to recapture the "glory days." Its called mid-life crisis. You can see this quite a bit in male ex-twi leadership. They look back over their lives, see when they were happiest, and try and recreate it. Thus, JAL's new letter, his clarion call, for new recruits.
Or, the old guys behind the new corps. Young grandson VP2 will be their puppet. He's the bait, the old guys will run it and bring back those glory days.
When will these people realize, its gone, the old TWI is dead, God has moved on. What worked then, in terms of structure, does not work now. You know where the young christian people are today? They are in their church youth groups, and they invite their friends from high school, and they go to places like New Orleans and help rebuild people's houses, or do a habitat for humanity trip. My niece and nephew love it. Their friends are involved. They are wonderful Christian kids. Many of them don't attend the church, but they love their youth group pastors and their teaching.
Also, what makes these ex-TWI men believe they were even called to any kind of Christian ministry by God? So, VP ordained them - to serve his organization and herd the people. An ordination by VP does not equal being called by God as a minister.
I think many of these men don't have a "ministry" and have no clue what they're doing. Are too proud to get credentialled or go to school, and yet, think because they are advanced class grads, they know the Word more than any other groups.
I think all we need do is look at their "fruit." And JAL's is dismal. Somehow, I have a hard time believing, just because he was a top hot dog in TWI, that him and other Revs. actually really have or had, a "ministry."
Uh...John has had a job for how long? A couple of years maybe? After living off the abs of twi and ces followers for what, more than 30 years, then finally having to earn his own money for a year or two...that means everything is ok now?
For me, one of the biggest problems with the offshoots is that they enable their leaders to live off the income of their followers. It's not healthy for the followers and it sure as h e ll isn't healthy for the leaders. It's like giving a recovering alcoholic a job in a liquor store.
oh yes!...it's troubling to many of us...and I've sat down with JAL and talked to him...it seems to me that twi gave this guy a platform...they gave him "legitimacy"...and now he wants to recapture it...put it in a bottle and admire it.
I don't see where he is focusing on "ministering to people"...I see him trying to justify himself and recruit. I can see through this offshoot crap like a cheap suit. It IS pathetic, to say the least.
Is he really concerned about our "spiritual well being"?...or is he desperately trying to find followers?...Which is it John?...are you afraid of getting a REAL job like the rest of us have?...
Again peoples ignorance of the subject shows, I'll just point out that John has a real job....... again for the gazillionth time. If you want to take cheap shots at least do some research before opening your mouth. And while I'm adding opinions I'll add one more . Although not a CES devote I watched for many years as John criss crossed the USA and other places. I can't see where his attempts to help people brought him any great gain, I doubt it was much fun living on the road. If for nothing else I respect John for his service, I saw no one else offering anywhere close to what he did .
Congratulations on finally finding something factual to disagree with.
JAL has a real job.
That having been said, you're missing the MAIN point of that- that objections to JAL doing "the ministry"
as opposed to working fulltime at a job has certain marked differences, only SOME of which relate to MONEY.
vpw didn't JUST do what HE did for money, or JUST for sex, after all....
Uh...John has had a job for how long? A couple of years maybe? After living off the abs of twi and ces followers for what, more than 30 years, then finally having to earn his own money for a year or two...that means everything is ok now?
For me, one of the biggest problems with the offshoots is that they enable their leaders to live off the income of their followers. It's not healthy for the followers and it sure as h e ll isn't healthy for the leaders. It's like giving a recovering alcoholic a job in a liquor store.
If he can make a comfortable living doing the "ministry" thing, that's good for him.
In the meantime, however, there's plenty of ego-massage thinking that there's all sorts of people
who look to him as God's mouthpiece.
All I see in this most recent letter is a middle aged man, trying to recapture the "glory days." Its called mid-life crisis. You can see this quite a bit in male ex-twi leadership. They look back over their lives, see when they were happiest, and try and recreate it. Thus, JAL's new letter, his clarion call, for new recruits.
Or, the old guys behind the new corps. Young grandson VP2 will be their puppet. He's the bait, the old guys will run it and bring back those glory days.
When will these people realize, its gone, the old TWI is dead, God has moved on. What worked then, in terms of structure, does not work now. You know where the young christian people are today? They are in their church youth groups, and they invite their friends from high school, and they go to places like New Orleans and help rebuild people's houses, or do a habitat for humanity trip. My niece and nephew love it. Their friends are involved. They are wonderful Christian kids. Many of them don't attend the church, but they love their youth group pastors and their teaching.
Also, what makes these ex-TWI men believe they were even called to any kind of Christian ministry by God? So, VP ordained them - to serve his organization and herd the people. An ordination by VP does not equal being called by God as a minister.
I think many of these men don't have a "ministry" and have no clue what they're doing. Are too proud to get credentialled or go to school, and yet, think because they are advanced class grads, they know the Word more than any other groups.
I think all we need do is look at their "fruit." And JAL's is dismal. Somehow, I have a hard time believing, just because he was a top hot dog in TWI, that him and other Revs. actually really have or had, a "ministry."
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geisha779
The letter of Assumptions--by St. John the divine of Indiana This is what happens when people isolate themselves from the Christian community at large. No accountibility. John, get out there and mee
geisha779
Word Wolf--That. . . was. . . an. . . AWESOME read!! Thank-you for that effort. Astute very astute!
Ham
plus the same old "exhortation".. "what are you DOING to move da verd.."
gotta get busy busy busy to be able to forget all that insanity..
can't slow down long enough to reflect, or grow a conscience..
maybe that's the problem. He has too much time on his hands now..
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rhino
... same old come on ... "piece of candy ... go for a ride?"
let me lead you into moving duh wuhrd ... you know how sweet it is to do gawd's will ... and you aren't gettin' it now ... but I will give it to you baby ... I'm your candy man ... I'm your cement mixer ... :o
(I was sure the cement mixer thing was part of a song .. can't find it now ... oh well lol)
OK .. James Tayolor, that's what I thought ... anyway .. jalvis is still trying to be da mahn ... despite his half paragraph of humble pie ...
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jeast
Well said Oldiesman,
I also applaud all of those "in top leadership positions" which I understand included more than just JL, who did have the courage to take a stand to expose what they sincerely believed then and now was not of God. I also find it interesting that hatred, discord, jealousy, dissensions, factions & envy also makes the list along with sexual immorality in Heb 5:19-21. Might as well add Heb 5:15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. For the life of me I cannot accept that JL, JS or RD lay awake at night thinking of ways to hurt and destroy peoples lives. For those interested in healing. I wish you all well.
I am not a disciple of any of them but I have learned much from all of them.
Love and Peace (really)
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rhino
Do you think they "lay awake at night thinking of ways to hurt and destroy peoples lives "back in the day" when they were doing and saying about the same as they are doing and saying now? Back when they were hurting and destroying people's lives?
Every man is right in his own eyes ... right?
If they were so blind back then ... when did they become so wise? The point is, Jalvis has reverted to praising vp ... indicating jalvis has regressed, not progressed. And I remember some letter from ces (and I wasn't even part of CES) about jalvis problems ...
Moving on ... I think most splinters have not gone far ... those that praise a sexual predator, plagiarist, etc ... have not changed much ... and most were slow to change at all, they have just tried to collect the money that used to go to TWI ... it is pathetic ...
I'm completely removed from any of these groups, and have no axe to grind ... but I feel free to speak my mind ... it might actually help one soul that might get caught up in the same old tripe ...
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geisha779
Word Wolf--That. . . was. . . an. . . AWESOME read!!
Thank-you for that effort. Astute very astute!
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Mark Clarke
And God forbid we should suggest that Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard were wrong in the first place!
In fact, the "scholarship" of that day, the Scribes, were condemned by Jesus as being hypocrites. Jesus taught the heart of the Law, which was serving God and people out of a true heart of love rather than the letter of the Law. But we rarely, if ever, saw that because we rarely read the Gospels, since they "weren't addressed to us."
To clarify, the "Word" that was in their hearts was the Word that their Lord Jesus spoke to them. His words were recited and repeated among them so as not to forget them. And a bit later Paul elaborated on some things, by revelation from Jesus, and he wrote them in letters which circulated in the first century. But it did not contradict or set aside what Jesus had taught.
Interestingly enough, we always talked about "The Word, The Word, The Word!" as if it were a synonym for the Bible. But we didn't even have that right. The Bible rarely if ever refers to itself as "The Word." It calls itself "The Scriptures." When it speaks of "The Word" it is referring specifically to the message that was communicated verbally, and in the person of Jesus, as well as the written Scriptures. That overall message is about God's plan to put the world right and have His Son rule a restored earth. This was Jesus' primary message, so if anyone is "teaching the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century" it's people who are getting back to the Gospel of the Kingdom. And there are many different groups as well as individuals who are doing so. It's not limited to one group led by a charismatic leader who got special revelation.
Well put!
We always read that verse (Rom. 15:4) as if it said that what was written aforetime was "for our learning ONLY" but it doesn't say that. The Greek word for "learning" there is didaskalia which means "doctrine" or right believing. It is the same word that is translated "doctrine" in II Tim. 3:16 (all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness..."). There is nothing in this verse that says the Old Testament or Gospels are not addressed to us.
In a similar way we were told that Jesus was a only a minister to the Jews, by quoting Rom. 15:8, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers..." But it doesn't say he was ONLY a minister to the circumcision. As VP liked to chant, "Why O why don't they read the next verse?" Verse 9 reads, "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name." The whole "addressed to a different administration" angle was (and still is) a devilish lie to separate Jesus from his words which we must believe and live by. I am somewhat ashamed that I didn't see that all those years.
The Old Testament is vital in understanding the New, though. The major themes of the whole Bible are laid out in the OT as a foundation. It is precisely because people are not as familiar with the OT that they misunderstand the NT.
But let's not give them the satisfaction of being "the number one cult in America" again. I remember we used to gloat over it as if it were an honor. TWI was one of many cults that used those same practices. They were ALL corrupt.
I'd say that's a good summary.
Actually, I don't think he was saying that. He was saying that Jesus' question would focus on what we DID with whatever we knew. That's probably closer to the truth, but sadly many ex-Way spinoffs are still following the training of their teacher. Like him, they teach one thing but don't practice it themselves. But this is nothing new. The Pharisees did the same thing and Jesus called them hypocrites.
I have great respect for JAL and his communication skills. I pray that he can humble himself to see where TWI and CES/STFI fall short. I know from experience that it isn't easy to do, after all those years of feeling smug because "WE ARE RIGHT!" Sometimes I think God may have allowed me to go through that period and then come to the realization of how wrong they were (and how wrong I was) in order to keep me humble. I don't know everything, but I am getting to know Him who does.
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now I see
Lest we not forget, these letters of "spiritual" advice are coming from the man who promoted the spideyville personal prophecies, the momentus therapy, and who put away of his wife, all in the recent past.
How can he think he has built a stable spiritual platform in his life to warrent the authoritative tone and message of these letters?....inconceivable...
I think more people here feel sorry for and have empathy toward JAL more than anything else, I really don't think he has a clue about his audience here nor why we even bother to reply to him.
I hope he figures it out some day....
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Mark Clarke
I don't think they were planning it that way. They were trained by VPW and like so many other Corps grads, they don't know how to run a ministry any other way. The Corps never had any "real" training in Christian leadership, but many of them would not be able to admit it to themselves (understandably). Yet those few that could humble themselves have grown to varying degrees. That's why it is so disappointing to see JAL going back to lauding VPW. Either he is totally blind to the problems (doctrinal as well as practical) or he is not being honest. I don't care which; either one is sad.
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Ham
Maybe just a small question.. what the h*ll does he want from us?
Maybe HE should go door to door witnessing.."hey mister, what would it be worth to know da word of god unlike it's been known since the first century.."
"wouldn't you like some peace in life, prosperity? Healing? We can show you how.."
Oh. He wants ME to go..
"Hey mistah.. how'd you like to know da word like it hasn't been known since the earth cooled? We have books.. one gawd, one lord.. and we even have resources to show you why bad things happen to good people.. we'll even show you how to be a prophet (ahem) prophecy..""
Shoot.. I have ALL KINDS of time.. sure.. I'd volunteer..
sheesh.
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Ham
I can see it..
a whole army of fifty, sixty some year old"volunteers" going door to door witnessing for the greatness of stiffi..
doesn't this seem at least partly troubling to anyone other than me?
Da way it was, da way it can be..
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Ham
I can see the dialog from the seventy and eighty some crowd..
"for gawd's sake Martha, if you'd pick up your d*mn dentures, spectacles, and just read the book.. maybe you'd see the greatness of it all.."
sowy.. it's just one of those evenings..
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Rejoice
"I will elaborate upon why that is true from a doctrinal standpoint, but when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word?"
For Readability...this sentence is completely unintelligble. The whole letter calculates this way which is why it seems like rambling.
Flesch Reading Ease --- 0.0
Flesch-Kinkaid Grade Level --- 30.4
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now I see
Hey John, regarding your statement here at the end of your letter, “What did you do with what you knew?”, maybe it should be God and the bible itself that inspires us to do godly things?
I think for 30+ years there's been a habit of "leaders" and twi people telling others what they think they should do, which is not their job. Rather, I think its God's and the individual person's job to decide what they are going to do in response to His Word. I think Socks got it right in his post:
Why not just let every man decide for himself what he's gonna do with his own life, especially the ones who were under the twi regime, they all know enough to be able to just simply pick up the bible and read it for themselves to their own hearts desire, and then its really up to them what they're going to do with it, rather than an artificial response that's not from God.
Some of my major regrets from my time with twi stem from doing things and involving myself with programs that were inspired from the group think twi fervor and the desires of vpw to regulate, mass market, and systematically formulate the movement of God's Word. I think especially, in light of our mutual past twi history, that God shouldn't be limited these ways, and maybe the concepts, bred in twi, regarding authoritative leadership should be examined.
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GrouchoMarxJr
oh yes!...it's troubling to many of us...and I've sat down with JAL and talked to him...it seems to me that twi gave this guy a platform...they gave him "legitimacy"...and now he wants to recapture it...put it in a bottle and admire it.
I don't see where he is focusing on "ministering to people"...I see him trying to justify himself and recruit. I can see through this offshoot crap like a cheap suit. It IS pathetic, to say the least.
Is he really concerned about our "spiritual well being"?...or is he desperately trying to find followers?...Which is it John?...are you afraid of getting a REAL job like the rest of us have?...
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WhiteDove
Again peoples ignorance of the subject shows, I'll just point out that John has a real job....... again for the gazillionth time. If you want to take cheap shots at least do some research before opening your mouth. And while I'm adding opinions I'll add one more . Although not a CES devote I watched for many years as John criss crossed the USA and other places. I can't see where his attempts to help people brought him any great gain, I doubt it was much fun living on the road. If for nothing else I respect John for his service, I saw no one else offering anywhere close to what he did .
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Seth R.
nevermind
Seth
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skyrider
John Lynn's stated purpose.
Seems like *the real you* is standing up for vpw/twi once again.
<_<
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oldiesman
I would add that John goes by his real name, has a real email address, and a real phone number that anyone who ponies up their real name may call to discuss their "beefs" with him directly.
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skyrider
And, one more thing.....
Does God lead someone to "light"......and then lead that person AWAY from "light?"
Or, does the "feast at the table" one time nourish......and another time sicken those wayfaring "guests" who once were invited in?
In the bizarre world of doublespeak......it seems to make sense to vpw apologists.
:blink:
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Sunesis
All I see in this most recent letter is a middle aged man, trying to recapture the "glory days." Its called mid-life crisis. You can see this quite a bit in male ex-twi leadership. They look back over their lives, see when they were happiest, and try and recreate it. Thus, JAL's new letter, his clarion call, for new recruits.
Or, the old guys behind the new corps. Young grandson VP2 will be their puppet. He's the bait, the old guys will run it and bring back those glory days.
When will these people realize, its gone, the old TWI is dead, God has moved on. What worked then, in terms of structure, does not work now. You know where the young christian people are today? They are in their church youth groups, and they invite their friends from high school, and they go to places like New Orleans and help rebuild people's houses, or do a habitat for humanity trip. My niece and nephew love it. Their friends are involved. They are wonderful Christian kids. Many of them don't attend the church, but they love their youth group pastors and their teaching.
Also, what makes these ex-TWI men believe they were even called to any kind of Christian ministry by God? So, VP ordained them - to serve his organization and herd the people. An ordination by VP does not equal being called by God as a minister.
I think many of these men don't have a "ministry" and have no clue what they're doing. Are too proud to get credentialled or go to school, and yet, think because they are advanced class grads, they know the Word more than any other groups.
I think all we need do is look at their "fruit." And JAL's is dismal. Somehow, I have a hard time believing, just because he was a top hot dog in TWI, that him and other Revs. actually really have or had, a "ministry."
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pond
In 1987 he made all those angry at twi happy with his letter of relating to the trouble in twi.
In 2008 he understands the folks who never subscribed to his 1987 thoughts about twi and asks them to join in as well.
I would say He is on a mission and he is serious and comminted.
It is his job always has been always will be.
I do think he is now and was in 1987 speaking John Lynns truth in Love .
I think we were in a cult and I can NEVER shake it and Mr. Lynn is just a notch or two more willing to try to help us all.
God bless each and every one.
What a strange ride it has been .
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tonto
Uh...John has had a job for how long? A couple of years maybe? After living off the abs of twi and ces followers for what, more than 30 years, then finally having to earn his own money for a year or two...that means everything is ok now?
For me, one of the biggest problems with the offshoots is that they enable their leaders to live off the income of their followers. It's not healthy for the followers and it sure as h e ll isn't healthy for the leaders. It's like giving a recovering alcoholic a job in a liquor store.
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WordWolf
Congratulations on finally finding something factual to disagree with.
JAL has a real job.
That having been said, you're missing the MAIN point of that- that objections to JAL doing "the ministry"
as opposed to working fulltime at a job has certain marked differences, only SOME of which relate to MONEY.
vpw didn't JUST do what HE did for money, or JUST for sex, after all....
If he can make a comfortable living doing the "ministry" thing, that's good for him.
In the meantime, however, there's plenty of ego-massage thinking that there's all sorts of people
who look to him as God's mouthpiece.
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excathedra
this thread, or letter, belongs in the twilight zone
don't know if there is such a section
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