Rejoice.... I think that these guys can`t bear to believe that they were wrong... it is all about fragile egos...so one must find a way to shore up their shaky beliefs to belie the truth of the evidence of the fruit in their lives and ministry that betrays them.
Shaz...*clearly, God`s standard is not how accurately we interpret every jot and tottle of the Bible, as some of his own never read one. Rather, it is about how people loved*
Absolutely great statement...the two great commandments that Jesus gave........and yet sadly, the knowledge of twi seems to preclude them from this....basically it seems to do little more than puff people up with such arrogance, they are incapable of love. That doesn`t matter though, because THEY know the scriptures better`n anybody else.
Geisha is right...these guys don`t see the glaring lack in their pitiful selves or their so called ministry because of their lack of exposure to genuine christians who ARE operating in the love of God.
Biblical knowledge is worthless if you don`t understand the love of God.
Nice attempt at switching the subject to some straw man scenario that you pulled ou of thin air. The subject was Johns letter and returning to the subject you will see that from such statements in the letter as
If you once sat through PFAL, you heard the Word of God taught more accurately than the vast majority of Christians who have ever drawn breath.
That last bit was one big fat claim from the letter ... greatest Christian teaching since the first century
But the subject and point from mstar was the obvious dichotomy of the claims of some great teaching ... and the fruits of those that led the corps by example, those that were trained up in The Way they should go by vp.
Even John felt compelled in the letter (the subject, right?) to mention the bad stuff. But he tries to explain it away with ...
As far as I can see, TWI was also about
the most disparate dichotomy of good and evil
in the history of Christianity.
The Way, we were. If you once sat through PFAL, you heard the Word of God taught more accurately than the vast majority of Christians who have ever drawn breath.
Now that is a tricky line ... good and evil are opposite ... a dichotomy is two opposing things usually ... and disparate means separate. So we have ... an opposition of opposite opposites ... not sure where that leaves us. What really is a disparate dichotomy, as opposed to your normal dichotomy?
But if John sets the one against the other, then the TWI evil was evil as we have not known since the first century ... or more evil than the vast majority of Christians have known since the first century. How does that spring forth from the greatest teaching of Christianity?
The only explanation is that the greatest teaching is NOT separate ... but actually imparts evil ... how else to explain the disparate dichotomy? But word games aside, how could the greatest teaching of Christianity spew out such bad behavior? I would expect at least "greatest Christian" behavior ... else what is the point of the teaching?
(and yes dove, we are talking about the subject, the letter)
DEDICATED TO JALVIS...........A FAITHFUL SON OF HIS "FATHER-IN-THE-WORD"..............FOR HAVING COME FULL CIRCLE, AND JOINING THE RANKS OF HIS FELLOW, LOYAL, SELF-DELUDED, SELF-OBSESSED, AND SELF-RIGHTEOUS VIC APOLOGISTS!..............CONGRATULATIONS, PILGRIM!..............YOUR SEARCH HAS ENDED, RIGHT WHERE IT BEGAN!............I GUESS SELLING PERSONAL PROPHECIES IS'NT AS LUCRATIVE AS IT USED TO BE, EH?............SO, LIKE A DOG RETURNING TO ITS VOMIT, YOU'RE BACK TO SQUARE ONE!!.................................PEACE.
Well...yeah, that does seem to be the bottom line to this whole thing..."A FAITHFUL SON OF HIS FATHER IN THE WORD".
Seems as though Lynn apparently buys into the "snow on the gas pumps" story...that is when God supposedly spoke to Wierwille, "I'll teach you the word like it hasn't been known since the first century, blah blah blah"...
and Lynn uses this as his springboard in promoting the "truth we were taught"...AND are responsible for!...Apparently Lynn believes that we will stand before the Lord and try to explain why we didn't follow the teachings of a lying, sexual predator who stole his work from other people...and Jesus is gonna be ....ed!
What Lynn is promoting is the exact same HOOK that Vic used to "get us all" when we first sat through pfal...he seems to be trying to make twi seem much more important than they were...in my humble opinion, twi didn't amount to a fart in a windstorm...either in the history of Christianity or even in the history of western Ohio.
Why appeal to a concept that was central in the psychological framework of "waybrain"?...Why try to lend credibility to the past teachings of a cult? Why try to resurrect thoughts, attitudes and allegiences to a cult that was led by a false prophet, who taught destructive doctrines (law of believing) that only led to the manipulation and subjugation of his followers?
Seems to me that a Christian minister need only concern himself with "preaching the gospel"...and not attempting to use the same techniques that Wierwille used in his marketing schemes...unless of course, Lynn has his own marketing scheme in mind?
I think John was the first to coin the phrase "eat the fish, and spit out the bones". I like the letter, I think John does a good job of clarifying his current beliefs and intentions to carry on with "the fish...the good doctrine" of twi while abandoning the "evil...bones". He appears not to hold grudges and does not allow the sins of Wierwille to corrupt his thinking and abandon the pure and truthful doctrine. I applaud the distinctions made with twi, they appear to be trying to get rid of the bad while "holding fast that which is good". I like the list that clarifies the differences between CES/STFI and twi, this is food for thought and many of the CES points listed have been posted from time to time on GS Cafe:
and Lynn uses this as his springboard in promoting the "truth we were taught"...AND are responsible for!...Apparently Lynn believes that we will stand before the Lord and try to explain why we didn't follow the teachings of a lying, sexual predator who stole his work from other people...and Jesus is gonna be ....ed!
I'll apologize for the odd humor in advance, but all I can think of is JAL dressed up like Smokey the Bear...
"Only YOU can prevent forest fires!... with the truth you were taught."
Seems to me they're mixing the Kool-aide a little strong around there... <_<
I think JAL hopes his letter will act as a sort of "spiritual viagra" by trying to rev up former plaf followers into "doing something" for Gawd in this, our day and time and hour.
The mindset that you have to be "doing something" is part of our past cult-think. It usually involves guilting you into opening your mind/heart/wallet/legs to the one encouraging you to "do something". Maybe not at first, but it will.
I think John was the first to coin the phrase "eat the fish, and spit out the bones". I like the letter, I think John does a good job of clarifying his current beliefs and intentions to carry on with "the fish...the good doctrine" of twi while abandoning the "evil...bones". He appears not to hold grudges and does not allow the sins of Wierwille to corrupt his thinking and abandon the pure and truthful doctrine. I applaud the distinctions made with twi, they appear to be trying to get rid of the bad while "holding fast that which is good". I like the list that clarifies the differences between CES/STFI and twi, this is food for thought and many of the CES points listed have been posted from time to time on GS Cafe:
OK, I read the "differences" schpiel. So, if there is that much difference between the two, why would they hold Vic's mumbo jumbo in such high esteem and assume he would be proud of them? In fact, why would they revere any of his work, knowing what they now know about the abundance of errors?
BTW--- When you read in The Bible about "holding fast to that which is good", I'm fairly certain it's not specifically referring to sifting through Way doctrinal nonsense in an effort to find "that which is good".
“Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined.”
This implies that “practical error” (known in many circles as sin) is simply a by-product of faulty knowledge…therefore if we are doctrinally sound we will not practice sin….HMMM…very Gnostic.
“In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
Again, that pesky Gnostic concept of redemption through knowledge. It fueled the Way, and must still fuel STFI.
why did they allow it to give way to nose-spiders?
why did JAL allow people to tell him how to treat his wife (and ex-wife)?
Why does he need to gather up ex-TWI folks?
Good Lord! This could easily turn into a carnival House of STFI Horrors:
First turn - Nose-spiders (need a tissue?)
Second turn - JALvis by himself in a dark room - a black light comes on and all you can see are his teeth - glowing - saying, "We left Egypt and we need ummmm ...took all your...ummmmm...the gold."
Third turn - Rows and rows and rows of chairs and the only way out is with this string...
I dunno.. it looks pretty troubling in my opinion. With this set of rambling, I think he's stopped just short of locking himself in a tower, and saying gawd would hold him hostage until stiffi gets the love and support that it oughter..
I think he has a few problems..
his organization is falling apart, and his identity along with it..
I glanced over that list of differences. What all this tells me is there still is not enough of a difference. It's like saying, "We don't have a lion, we have a tiger. Let us list for you the differences between them for you..."
The trouble is that both the lion and the tiger will kill you and feed you to their young.
I dunno.. it looks pretty troubling in my opinion. With this set of rambling, I think he's stopped just short of locking himself in a tower, and saying gawd would hold him hostage until stiffi gets the love and support that it oughter..
I think he has a few problems..
his organization is falling apart, and his identity along with it..
Well that other group has their v2p2 way corps ... maybe he feels he needs to compete for market share of old wayfers.
So he is retrenching back in the old "the wuhrd as we have not heard it since the first century"
It just looks like more of the same to me ... but maybe moving a little closer to the old "we are Gawd's special chosen ones" thinking. So we still have all these splinters teaching the greatness of the one body ... but they all seem to think THEY are the special chosen ones within that one body.
This could be a regular soap opera ... "As the Cult Turns"
But maybe you are correct ... it could be a last gasp from the old CES body ...
Given that I was one of the top ministry leaders from 1967-1987, I speak with experiential knowledge…
Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined.
He says this, yet he also says he was a “top leader”?
Well if he was such a top leader, why didn’t he pick up on the “doctrinal error” and the practical error while he was in “top leadership” there?
Yes, many precious people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word.
Yes, this happened. Yes, that happened. Okay, let’s forget about it now and brush it under the carpet. This really belittles the injuries, physical and mental, caused to so many over such a prolonged period.
Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered…when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word?
Well, plenty of other times.
And John had a significant part in the squandering.
Let’s not forget, and when else were such people so systematically abused?
The Way. It was. What was it? First and foremost, it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God that we heard.
Sorry, how big is that ego?
See the end date? He attributes everything he knows to VPW (let’s say, pre-fog years/pre-PoP) and nothing to LCM. “Anyone” could hear???
In large part because God led Victor Paul Wierwille to the work of E.W. Bullinger, whose approach to Scripture was virtually unique. That is what allowed Wierwille, and thus TWI to an even greater degree, thanks to the quality men and women with research ability whom it attracted, to put the Word together like it had not been known since the first century Church.
Just a slight bending of the truth here.
…To a degree, we became more like hearers of the Word than doers, and often deceived our selves.
“To a degree” – compromising, still not fully accepting his part in it, minimizing or rationalizing what was actually done.
Why did God have a need for The Way International? Actually, He didn’t. But He did have a need for any group of people who would make known what, or close to what, the Apostle Paul taught once the whole of what we now read in the Church Epistles had been unfolded to him.
What Paul taught, as understood by TWI. Many church groups also believe they teach what Paul taught. There’s that ego again; we’re right, you’re wrong.
… even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a Trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, water baptism is relevant, and maybe even that the Bible is not absolute truth.
Frankly I would rather be with a bunch of trinitarians who believe all the above and who practice loving kindness to other people than a bunch of people who have “true Christian doctrine” and use it to abuse and control other people.
Ephesians is the apex of the Church Epistles (the primary curriculum for Christian living),
Except for Eph 5:2-5, of course. Oh, you can include verse 6 in that as well.
Another major truth we learned in TWI, which is unknown to most Christians, …
See, we still have special private knowledge!
Like me, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, -
…"some," note. Many of which are offshoots…
- but I submit that until 1987 there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there. That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.
Accuracy is so subjective, knowing what we know now. Things weren’t accurately lived within TWI so they are unlikely to be accurately lived by this particular offshoot.
Like the wheat and the tares growing up together, tremendous truth and egregious evil shared the ministry platform.
As a “top leader”, JAL was responsible for keeping the ground free of tares to the best extent possible; and then ensuring that good seed was planted in it. Before sowing a crop, any farmer or gardener prepares the ground and gets rid of the big and pernicious weeds. When the next year’s crop is sown, the sower ensures that the seeds are good and what he expects to harvest. The wise sower does not keep planting in ground full of weeds but gets rid of them. Neither does he plant weeds.
You have a ministry in the Body of Christ, and he who is the Head longs to help you fulfill that calling.
Thanks for that, many of us are healed or healing but find the Lord Jesus in some place where JAL is not. Who says we aren’t fulfilling our calling?
Along with me, you will one day stand before our precious Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward you according to how you have lived your life as a Christian. In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
I just don’t wanna hear what some people will have to respond.
Along with me, you will one day stand before our precious Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward you according to how you have lived your life as a Christian. In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
I just don’t wanna hear what some people will have to respond.
I don't recall reading anywhere in the Bible that we will need to respond with what did you do with what you knew. I think the only dialogue recording in the Gospels (which are for our learning) is regarding how we treated/took care of others.
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
It doesn't say what we taught others in this context. You can try to explain this isn't written to us--but I can't see how this can't apply regarding our bema appearance. There was too much emphasis as bema as a rewards stand--it was also the judgement seat in a courtroom. I figure I need to face Jesus Christ some day and I want to have REALLY done something with the life he gave me by his death and resurrection. I believe I am doing MORE good now than before and I am not in an offshoot--I am serving wherever I can in a local church.
He says there were big doctrinal errors, more than anyone knew...
There were big practical errors, more than anyone knew...
But it's the best thing in history. A true movement of revelation and the speer - it of God.
How does that account for the doctrinal and practical errors?
Speaking of which, the term "practical" error is a queasy term - it should be specific -
is it wrong because the original doctrine was wrong and therefore wrong when applied/put into practice or is the practical error simply that the original Way doctrine was right and wrongly practiced? Or some combination of the above? JAL approaches this topic like it's a gimme - "yeah yeah there was a lot wrong more than anyone knew, yada yada....now. Who wants to do something?!? You, you over there. You? "
It's a serious question and I think one of the reasons JAL - your letter needs work. It may be well intentioned but again - you need to say exactly what you mean, as if those reading what you're writing don't know what you mean or are about to write. Write as if the audience has no preconceived opinion. Be clear. Or clearer, please.
What was wrong, and the resulting practical error would be good to know - hey, I didn't bring it up, he did. If he brings it up, it shouldn't be so blithely - it makes him look either disinterested or mmm....no other word but stupid. And JAL's not stupid.
Anyhoo - my own impression is that JAL's remembering how powerful and active the community of participants in the Way were.
Instead of reaching back to the dusty distant past, why not move to the here and now? JAL, you seem to be more about yesterday then today. Today, those people have moved on, grown up and older, and are living life in the present. You are too.
Perhaps you can figure out a way that's fulfilling and satisfying for you to recap who and what you were "then". Maybe see what others have done, try new things with what you know. I'm sure you have but you sound to me like you're still looking. More power to you, my only recommendation would be that the hope is in the future, not in the past. Take what you will from it but move on, friend. :)
I have a theory. I may be completely off-base, but here goes.
It appears John is trying to appeal to people who long for the "good old days." Maybe he perceives that there are lots of folks who think twi was just swell until Craig came along and screwed it up. (I also think a lot of people fit that category, based on communications that I've seen outside GS.) Who better to fill out the ranks of his current group? Perhaps this latest marketing campaign became necessary because all the spiders and controversies and craziness that have plagued CES/STFI of late surely must have hurt the CES/STFI numbers a little bit.
If I sound cynical, it's because I am. I liked John. I liked the other John even more. I have no animosity toward either them as human beings. However, I have a high level of suspicion when someone says how wonderful and inspired of God twi was and (out of the same mouth) how sinful and fouled up it was.
I think JAL (and many others like him) are where they are today because they rolled out of twi and right into their splinter groups, without taking time to quietly examine what they believe and why...just them and God, with nothing to prove, no one to prove it to, and no one pushing an agenda at them.
No one can squeeze God into a concordance or a Greek lexicon. God's too big and His message is really too simple and gets lost amidst all the big words. Those are great tools, and research, in its place, can be exhilarating and enlightening, but those things are so much less effective than simply letting God quietly speak to your heart as you try to live love.
I hope JAL and others like him find the simplicity of life with God. I pray for them, because I feel sorry for them. They're like hamsters on a wheel, running this way and that way and just going in circles.
I think JAL and any and all former TWI leaders need to look more closely at the doctrines that were taught. Whether or not the evil that was practiced in TWI was directly related to the wrong doctrine is a point that has been debated and argued here at GS. What I'd like to point out is that there was more wrong doctrine than even JAL describes. Just as Martin Luther's theses and the rest of the Protestant Reformation didn't go far enough in refuting Roman Catholic doctrine, so CES/STFI didn't go far enough in correcting the doctrinal errors taught in PFAL.
To me, the biggest doctrinal problem in JAL's letter is the desperate clinging to Bullinger and his ultra-dispensationalism. If the Four Gosples were not addressed to us, then why were they written? If the things Jesus said were addressed to a "former administration" and expressed things that were to be changed within a few months, why were the four Gospels written AFTER the Epistles? And why did Jesus say that the holy spirit "...shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." The worst thing about dispensationalism is that it separates Jesus from his words, which he said are spirit and life, and are the key to life in the age to come. JAL said in his letter, "It is only in the Church Epistles that a Christian finds his true identity “in Christ,” as well as his true Hope." This is a most dangerous position. I believe it is also the root of beliefs such as "once I'm born again I have spirit and it doesn't matter what I do in the flesh."
As for TWI being the only place where the Word was taught accurately since the first century, JAL and anybody else who still believes this should familiarize themselves with church history, especially of the 19th and early 20th century. There were great movements that brought back many to the important message of Christ's Kingdom on earth, the sleep of the dead, and even the error of the Trinity. All long before VPW ever preached to his first tree.
Some here have talked about how they'd rather have people practice God's love even if they taught wrong doctrine. I think God is interested in both speaking the truth and living love (speaking the truth in love, as Eph. 4:15 says). We shouldn't have to choose. But it's not about what group has "the right stuff" - it's about what IS the right stuff, doctrinally and practically. And if you find it where you are, you're fortunate and blessed. This whole "I am of VP, and I am of JAL, I am of TWI, and I am of CES, etc." is no different from the carnal divisions that Paul was talking about in I Cor. 1. But Jesus said we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. But remember he also said that HE is the truth, not any teacher or organization. If there was a smattering of truth I learned from TWI, so what? The important thing is what is the truth, not where did I learn it, or what organization teaches it now.
Well stated Linda - although I cannot claim to have ever liked JAL - He ran roughshod over people well before 1987 as if that is some magic year. JS, on the other hand, I did indeed like.
But Jesus said we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. But remember he also said that HE is the truth, not any teacher or organization.
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geisha779
The letter of Assumptions--by St. John the divine of Indiana This is what happens when people isolate themselves from the Christian community at large. No accountibility. John, get out there and mee
geisha779
Word Wolf--That. . . was. . . an. . . AWESOME read!! Thank-you for that effort. Astute very astute!
rascal
Rejoice.... I think that these guys can`t bear to believe that they were wrong... it is all about fragile egos...so one must find a way to shore up their shaky beliefs to belie the truth of the evidence of the fruit in their lives and ministry that betrays them.
Shaz...*clearly, God`s standard is not how accurately we interpret every jot and tottle of the Bible, as some of his own never read one. Rather, it is about how people loved*
Absolutely great statement...the two great commandments that Jesus gave........and yet sadly, the knowledge of twi seems to preclude them from this....basically it seems to do little more than puff people up with such arrogance, they are incapable of love. That doesn`t matter though, because THEY know the scriptures better`n anybody else.
Geisha is right...these guys don`t see the glaring lack in their pitiful selves or their so called ministry because of their lack of exposure to genuine christians who ARE operating in the love of God.
Biblical knowledge is worthless if you don`t understand the love of God.
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rhino
That last bit was one big fat claim from the letter ... greatest Christian teaching since the first century
But the subject and point from mstar was the obvious dichotomy of the claims of some great teaching ... and the fruits of those that led the corps by example, those that were trained up in The Way they should go by vp.
Even John felt compelled in the letter (the subject, right?) to mention the bad stuff. But he tries to explain it away with ...
Now that is a tricky line ... good and evil are opposite ... a dichotomy is two opposing things usually ... and disparate means separate. So we have ... an opposition of opposite opposites ... not sure where that leaves us. What really is a disparate dichotomy, as opposed to your normal dichotomy?
But if John sets the one against the other, then the TWI evil was evil as we have not known since the first century ... or more evil than the vast majority of Christians have known since the first century. How does that spring forth from the greatest teaching of Christianity?
The only explanation is that the greatest teaching is NOT separate ... but actually imparts evil ... how else to explain the disparate dichotomy? But word games aside, how could the greatest teaching of Christianity spew out such bad behavior? I would expect at least "greatest Christian" behavior ... else what is the point of the teaching?
(and yes dove, we are talking about the subject, the letter)
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well...yeah, that does seem to be the bottom line to this whole thing..."A FAITHFUL SON OF HIS FATHER IN THE WORD".
Seems as though Lynn apparently buys into the "snow on the gas pumps" story...that is when God supposedly spoke to Wierwille, "I'll teach you the word like it hasn't been known since the first century, blah blah blah"...
and Lynn uses this as his springboard in promoting the "truth we were taught"...AND are responsible for!...Apparently Lynn believes that we will stand before the Lord and try to explain why we didn't follow the teachings of a lying, sexual predator who stole his work from other people...and Jesus is gonna be ....ed!
What Lynn is promoting is the exact same HOOK that Vic used to "get us all" when we first sat through pfal...he seems to be trying to make twi seem much more important than they were...in my humble opinion, twi didn't amount to a fart in a windstorm...either in the history of Christianity or even in the history of western Ohio.
Why appeal to a concept that was central in the psychological framework of "waybrain"?...Why try to lend credibility to the past teachings of a cult? Why try to resurrect thoughts, attitudes and allegiences to a cult that was led by a false prophet, who taught destructive doctrines (law of believing) that only led to the manipulation and subjugation of his followers?
Seems to me that a Christian minister need only concern himself with "preaching the gospel"...and not attempting to use the same techniques that Wierwille used in his marketing schemes...unless of course, Lynn has his own marketing scheme in mind?
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Ham
It looks to me like about the most disjoint, disorganized set of ramblings from jl that I've seen to date..
almost like one last emotional plea to put everything back the way it was once upon a time.
I think he's kinda off kilter somewhere.. experiencing loss of identity or something..
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George Aar
Maybe the thought of wearing an orange "Home Depot" vest is sending chills up his spine...
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oldiesman
I think John was the first to coin the phrase "eat the fish, and spit out the bones". I like the letter, I think John does a good job of clarifying his current beliefs and intentions to carry on with "the fish...the good doctrine" of twi while abandoning the "evil...bones". He appears not to hold grudges and does not allow the sins of Wierwille to corrupt his thinking and abandon the pure and truthful doctrine. I applaud the distinctions made with twi, they appear to be trying to get rid of the bad while "holding fast that which is good". I like the list that clarifies the differences between CES/STFI and twi, this is food for thought and many of the CES points listed have been posted from time to time on GS Cafe:
Differences with TWI
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doojable
I'll apologize for the odd humor in advance, but all I can think of is JAL dressed up like Smokey the Bear...
"Only YOU can prevent forest fires!... with the truth you were taught."
Seems to me they're mixing the Kool-aide a little strong around there... <_<
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tonto
Spot-on use of Positively 4th Street, DWBH.
I think JAL hopes his letter will act as a sort of "spiritual viagra" by trying to rev up former plaf followers into "doing something" for Gawd in this, our day and time and hour.
The mindset that you have to be "doing something" is part of our past cult-think. It usually involves guilting you into opening your mind/heart/wallet/legs to the one encouraging you to "do something". Maybe not at first, but it will.
In my NSHO, he's trolling for rubes.
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waysider
OK, I read the "differences" schpiel. So, if there is that much difference between the two, why would they hold Vic's mumbo jumbo in such high esteem and assume he would be proud of them? In fact, why would they revere any of his work, knowing what they now know about the abundance of errors?
BTW--- When you read in The Bible about "holding fast to that which is good", I'm fairly certain it's not specifically referring to sifting through Way doctrinal nonsense in an effort to find "that which is good".
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Yanagisawa
Two phrases speak volumes to me:
“Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined.”
This implies that “practical error” (known in many circles as sin) is simply a by-product of faulty knowledge…therefore if we are doctrinally sound we will not practice sin….HMMM…very Gnostic.
“In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
Again, that pesky Gnostic concept of redemption through knowledge. It fueled the Way, and must still fuel STFI.
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doojable
What I want to know is this...
if the "doctrine is soooo sound,
why did they allow it to give way to nose-spiders?
why did JAL allow people to tell him how to treat his wife (and ex-wife)?
Why does he need to gather up ex-TWI folks?
Good Lord! This could easily turn into a carnival House of STFI Horrors:
First turn - Nose-spiders (need a tissue?)
Second turn - JALvis by himself in a dark room - a black light comes on and all you can see are his teeth - glowing - saying, "We left Egypt and we need ummmm ...took all your...ummmmm...the gold."
Third turn - Rows and rows and rows of chairs and the only way out is with this string...
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Ham
I dunno.. it looks pretty troubling in my opinion. With this set of rambling, I think he's stopped just short of locking himself in a tower, and saying gawd would hold him hostage until stiffi gets the love and support that it oughter..
I think he has a few problems..
his organization is falling apart, and his identity along with it..
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doojable
I glanced over that list of differences. What all this tells me is there still is not enough of a difference. It's like saying, "We don't have a lion, we have a tiger. Let us list for you the differences between them for you..."
The trouble is that both the lion and the tiger will kill you and feed you to their young.
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rhino
Well that other group has their v2p2 way corps ... maybe he feels he needs to compete for market share of old wayfers.
So he is retrenching back in the old "the wuhrd as we have not heard it since the first century"
It just looks like more of the same to me ... but maybe moving a little closer to the old "we are Gawd's special chosen ones" thinking. So we still have all these splinters teaching the greatness of the one body ... but they all seem to think THEY are the special chosen ones within that one body.
This could be a regular soap opera ... "As the Cult Turns"
But maybe you are correct ... it could be a last gasp from the old CES body ...
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Twinky
Extracts from JAL's letter...
Given that I was one of the top ministry leaders from 1967-1987, I speak with experiential knowledge…
Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined.
He says this, yet he also says he was a “top leader”?
Well if he was such a top leader, why didn’t he pick up on the “doctrinal error” and the practical error while he was in “top leadership” there?
Yes, many precious people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word.
Yes, this happened. Yes, that happened. Okay, let’s forget about it now and brush it under the carpet. This really belittles the injuries, physical and mental, caused to so many over such a prolonged period.
Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered…when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word?
Well, plenty of other times.
And John had a significant part in the squandering.
Let’s not forget, and when else were such people so systematically abused?
The Way. It was. What was it? First and foremost, it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God that we heard.
Sorry, how big is that ego?
See the end date? He attributes everything he knows to VPW (let’s say, pre-fog years/pre-PoP) and nothing to LCM. “Anyone” could hear???
In large part because God led Victor Paul Wierwille to the work of E.W. Bullinger, whose approach to Scripture was virtually unique. That is what allowed Wierwille, and thus TWI to an even greater degree, thanks to the quality men and women with research ability whom it attracted, to put the Word together like it had not been known since the first century Church.
Just a slight bending of the truth here.
…To a degree, we became more like hearers of the Word than doers, and often deceived our selves.
“To a degree” – compromising, still not fully accepting his part in it, minimizing or rationalizing what was actually done.
Why did God have a need for The Way International? Actually, He didn’t. But He did have a need for any group of people who would make known what, or close to what, the Apostle Paul taught once the whole of what we now read in the Church Epistles had been unfolded to him.
What Paul taught, as understood by TWI. Many church groups also believe they teach what Paul taught. There’s that ego again; we’re right, you’re wrong.
… even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a Trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, water baptism is relevant, and maybe even that the Bible is not absolute truth.
Frankly I would rather be with a bunch of trinitarians who believe all the above and who practice loving kindness to other people than a bunch of people who have “true Christian doctrine” and use it to abuse and control other people.
Ephesians is the apex of the Church Epistles (the primary curriculum for Christian living),
Except for Eph 5:2-5, of course. Oh, you can include verse 6 in that as well.
Another major truth we learned in TWI, which is unknown to most Christians, …
See, we still have special private knowledge!
Like me, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, -
…"some," note. Many of which are offshoots…
- but I submit that until 1987 there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there. That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.
Accuracy is so subjective, knowing what we know now. Things weren’t accurately lived within TWI so they are unlikely to be accurately lived by this particular offshoot.
Like the wheat and the tares growing up together, tremendous truth and egregious evil shared the ministry platform.
As a “top leader”, JAL was responsible for keeping the ground free of tares to the best extent possible; and then ensuring that good seed was planted in it. Before sowing a crop, any farmer or gardener prepares the ground and gets rid of the big and pernicious weeds. When the next year’s crop is sown, the sower ensures that the seeds are good and what he expects to harvest. The wise sower does not keep planting in ground full of weeds but gets rid of them. Neither does he plant weeds.
You have a ministry in the Body of Christ, and he who is the Head longs to help you fulfill that calling.
Thanks for that, many of us are healed or healing but find the Lord Jesus in some place where JAL is not. Who says we aren’t fulfilling our calling?
Along with me, you will one day stand before our precious Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward you according to how you have lived your life as a Christian. In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
I just don’t wanna hear what some people will have to respond.
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penguin
I don't recall reading anywhere in the Bible that we will need to respond with what did you do with what you knew. I think the only dialogue recording in the Gospels (which are for our learning) is regarding how we treated/took care of others.
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
It doesn't say what we taught others in this context. You can try to explain this isn't written to us--but I can't see how this can't apply regarding our bema appearance. There was too much emphasis as bema as a rewards stand--it was also the judgement seat in a courtroom. I figure I need to face Jesus Christ some day and I want to have REALLY done something with the life he gave me by his death and resurrection. I believe I am doing MORE good now than before and I am not in an offshoot--I am serving wherever I can in a local church.
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Abigail
Wait!! I'm seeing an image!!! Could it be a vision????
I see a giant carion bird, swooping down to pick what flesh remains on a carcass . . . .
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socks
JAL's logic is lacking -
He says there were big doctrinal errors, more than anyone knew...
There were big practical errors, more than anyone knew...
But it's the best thing in history. A true movement of revelation and the speer - it of God.
How does that account for the doctrinal and practical errors?
Speaking of which, the term "practical" error is a queasy term - it should be specific -
is it wrong because the original doctrine was wrong and therefore wrong when applied/put into practice or is the practical error simply that the original Way doctrine was right and wrongly practiced? Or some combination of the above? JAL approaches this topic like it's a gimme - "yeah yeah there was a lot wrong more than anyone knew, yada yada....now. Who wants to do something?!? You, you over there. You? "
It's a serious question and I think one of the reasons JAL - your letter needs work. It may be well intentioned but again - you need to say exactly what you mean, as if those reading what you're writing don't know what you mean or are about to write. Write as if the audience has no preconceived opinion. Be clear. Or clearer, please.
What was wrong, and the resulting practical error would be good to know - hey, I didn't bring it up, he did. If he brings it up, it shouldn't be so blithely - it makes him look either disinterested or mmm....no other word but stupid. And JAL's not stupid.
Anyhoo - my own impression is that JAL's remembering how powerful and active the community of participants in the Way were.
Instead of reaching back to the dusty distant past, why not move to the here and now? JAL, you seem to be more about yesterday then today. Today, those people have moved on, grown up and older, and are living life in the present. You are too.
Perhaps you can figure out a way that's fulfilling and satisfying for you to recap who and what you were "then". Maybe see what others have done, try new things with what you know. I'm sure you have but you sound to me like you're still looking. More power to you, my only recommendation would be that the hope is in the future, not in the past. Take what you will from it but move on, friend. :)
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waterbuffalo
we didn't get this letter. does this mean we're off his mailing list? Yes!
JAL is as he ever was...imo....
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excathedra
I was joshing about JAL doing drugs
Dylan !!!! Love it !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Linda Z
I have a theory. I may be completely off-base, but here goes.
It appears John is trying to appeal to people who long for the "good old days." Maybe he perceives that there are lots of folks who think twi was just swell until Craig came along and screwed it up. (I also think a lot of people fit that category, based on communications that I've seen outside GS.) Who better to fill out the ranks of his current group? Perhaps this latest marketing campaign became necessary because all the spiders and controversies and craziness that have plagued CES/STFI of late surely must have hurt the CES/STFI numbers a little bit.
If I sound cynical, it's because I am. I liked John. I liked the other John even more. I have no animosity toward either them as human beings. However, I have a high level of suspicion when someone says how wonderful and inspired of God twi was and (out of the same mouth) how sinful and fouled up it was.
I think JAL (and many others like him) are where they are today because they rolled out of twi and right into their splinter groups, without taking time to quietly examine what they believe and why...just them and God, with nothing to prove, no one to prove it to, and no one pushing an agenda at them.
No one can squeeze God into a concordance or a Greek lexicon. God's too big and His message is really too simple and gets lost amidst all the big words. Those are great tools, and research, in its place, can be exhilarating and enlightening, but those things are so much less effective than simply letting God quietly speak to your heart as you try to live love.
I hope JAL and others like him find the simplicity of life with God. I pray for them, because I feel sorry for them. They're like hamsters on a wheel, running this way and that way and just going in circles.
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Mark Clarke
I think JAL and any and all former TWI leaders need to look more closely at the doctrines that were taught. Whether or not the evil that was practiced in TWI was directly related to the wrong doctrine is a point that has been debated and argued here at GS. What I'd like to point out is that there was more wrong doctrine than even JAL describes. Just as Martin Luther's theses and the rest of the Protestant Reformation didn't go far enough in refuting Roman Catholic doctrine, so CES/STFI didn't go far enough in correcting the doctrinal errors taught in PFAL.
To me, the biggest doctrinal problem in JAL's letter is the desperate clinging to Bullinger and his ultra-dispensationalism. If the Four Gosples were not addressed to us, then why were they written? If the things Jesus said were addressed to a "former administration" and expressed things that were to be changed within a few months, why were the four Gospels written AFTER the Epistles? And why did Jesus say that the holy spirit "...shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." The worst thing about dispensationalism is that it separates Jesus from his words, which he said are spirit and life, and are the key to life in the age to come. JAL said in his letter, "It is only in the Church Epistles that a Christian finds his true identity “in Christ,” as well as his true Hope." This is a most dangerous position. I believe it is also the root of beliefs such as "once I'm born again I have spirit and it doesn't matter what I do in the flesh."
As for TWI being the only place where the Word was taught accurately since the first century, JAL and anybody else who still believes this should familiarize themselves with church history, especially of the 19th and early 20th century. There were great movements that brought back many to the important message of Christ's Kingdom on earth, the sleep of the dead, and even the error of the Trinity. All long before VPW ever preached to his first tree.
Some here have talked about how they'd rather have people practice God's love even if they taught wrong doctrine. I think God is interested in both speaking the truth and living love (speaking the truth in love, as Eph. 4:15 says). We shouldn't have to choose. But it's not about what group has "the right stuff" - it's about what IS the right stuff, doctrinally and practically. And if you find it where you are, you're fortunate and blessed. This whole "I am of VP, and I am of JAL, I am of TWI, and I am of CES, etc." is no different from the carnal divisions that Paul was talking about in I Cor. 1. But Jesus said we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. But remember he also said that HE is the truth, not any teacher or organization. If there was a smattering of truth I learned from TWI, so what? The important thing is what is the truth, not where did I learn it, or what organization teaches it now.
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RumRunner
Well stated Linda - although I cannot claim to have ever liked JAL - He ran roughshod over people well before 1987 as if that is some magic year. JS, on the other hand, I did indeed like.
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excathedra
I liked that, Mark.
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