just the POSSBILITY of supposed betrayal, the HINT of the mogster's wrong doing in a cheesy word study on adultery and he's outathere.. labelled possessed, along with those who may have read his paper..
The "enforcers" were successful enough burying him, I didn't know about it until here, years later.
I remember when VP called me into the coach, sitting there in his bathrobe with nothing underneath an hour before the SNS at Emporia, grahically telling me what he'd like to do sexually to me, then telling me why he can't have sex with his wife and so he has to get it from other women. He told me I was the only person he'd ever told that, and I had to keep it lockbox. If it ever came back to him, he'd know I was the one who told and would know I couldn't be trusted because I had broken the "lockbox."
I remember thinking, I don't want to know this, why are you telling me these "secrets"?
Well, I never did tell. His anger was enough to shut me up. It was a few years later I found out from another early corps woman that it was the same line he used on her and other women he had sex with. There was nothing lockbox about it. But it was his method for keeping things secret.
He was adamant about the lockbox. I think that really was the biggest sin, in VP's eyes anyway - breaking the lockbox.
and I think that's why some feel so uncomfortable upon seeing their beloved mentor tarred and feathered in an open forum. It's like.. if he was so wrong, where does that leave them, if they partook in the spoils? Some often insist the vicster was "born again" despite his lifestyle. I wonder.. if one cannot honestly consider the vicster's works, perhaps is it that they indeed cannot condemn their own? I'm not specifically naming names, I'm just trying to understand the behavior.
If the vicster's box gets unlocked, what about theirs?
Or is it the nagging feeling of a long anesthetised conscience tugging at one's pants legs.. old "stuff" that supposedly needs to stay carefully covered under wraps?
I remember one poster admitting some of this old "stuff" proudly. Too bad he got a beating, I think he would have revealed far more.
You can be born again,but a backslider. If others are still keeping their lockbox mentality carefully locked, they should really think about repentance first and foremost. I don't think that anyone would want to walk into eternity with that kind of stuff still hidden away, for it won't be hidden anymore when the Lord Jesus begins their judgement.
Interesting, too, how we were supposed to share EVERYTHING (remember full sharing??) about our lives, while so many things about the leadership were considered "lockbox."
Bit of a double standard.
Especially when you consider our little "sins" were nothing in comparison to that of the MOG... but we could get kicked out at a moment's notice.
Plus I wonder.. how many details were placed in the hand of your overseer's overseer. How much debt one had, how many times and when one had sex with one's spouse, how much is in the bank, etc. etc.
Very personal information.
I wonder if as they were considered a counsellor or advisor in the organization, one could bring criminal charges against them for violating confidentiality. They had the organization's stamp of approval after all..
I'd like to see them argue that before a judge.. "well your honor, he had debt. Therefore, he was a danger to himself and others. We had to tell.."
I agree Java Jane, there seems there were two lockbox practices, one for the average follower, another for the mogster's sexual appetites and worse..
I CAN HONESTLY SAY,i WAS NEVER ASKED HOW MANY TIMES i HAD SEX WITH MY WIFE,iF THEY HAD,i WOULD HAVE BEEN OUTTA THERE THAT MUCH SOONER.
Sorry to capiltize,but that even now pis@es me off.One leader told me that the state leader made a pass at his wife,she laughed at him.So I guess said state leader left with his tail between his legs.
Vp?Wish what I know then what I know now..outta there..Herr swine der vic may the worms crawl in worms crawl out.
Yeah, I agree, frank! I always wondered when I heard stories about being asked about your married sex life if it was some sort of sick way for leadership to get off on what you were doing with your spouse. Yuck.
Or maybe if your spouse (or you) wasn't getting the prescribed amount it would give them an excuse to suggest some extracurricular activities to you or your spouse.
just the POSSBILITY of supposed betrayal, the HINT of the mogster's wrong doing in a cheesy word study on adultery and he's outathere.. labelled possessed, along with those who may have read his paper..
The "enforcers" were successful enough burying him, I didn't know about it until here, years later.
Yea. I got a copy of his Adultery Paper a year (or so) after it came out. Seems the Org went into *High Protection Mode* immediately. Not only was he (John) labeled *possezzed*, but so would anyone who even READ the thing.
Clamping the lid tight on Pandora's the lock box.
If I recollect correct (it's been a while since I've read it), he never mentioned names.
He never singled out anyone. He never mentioned specific instances.
He merely said ---- ADULTERY IS WRONG, and backed it up biblically.
Yup -- reading something like that there will certainly induce devil spirits.
Opening up your mind to *outside influences* -- even if it is God's Word.
A paper (such as this) should have been part of CFS, instead of the porn videos.
I'm reminded of the old adage --- "The guilty flee, when no one is in pursuit".
Alla dem dere in da Org musta bin feelin mahghty guilty! Ummmm Hmmmm!!!!
"What happens in the cornfield, stays in the cornfield." :unsure: :(
I CAN HONESTLY SAY,i WAS NEVER ASKED HOW MANY TIMES i HAD SEX WITH MY WIFE,iF THEY HAD,i WOULD HAVE BEEN OUTTA THERE THAT MUCH SOONER.
Sorry to capiltize,but that even now pis@es me off.One leader told me that the state leader made a pass at his wife,she laughed at him.So I guess said state leader left with his tail between his legs.
Vp?Wish what I know then what I know now..outta there..Herr swine der vic may the worms crawl in worms crawl out.
Frank, if I remember correctly, I think the scheduling of sex was just a corpse thing. Wouldn't surprise me if it hit the field with the last set of sycophants they unleashed though..
Isn't that kind of "odd" though, to intrude into one's personal life, no matter who they were, to the extent that you include IN WRITING your schedule of "personal time" with a spouse?
Kinda bizarre..
I think they knew how far to push your buttons, and the possible consequences..
same for me.
They got a nice polite.. "hmm. well, We'll think about it, and get back with you. That's it. Yeah. See ya sometime.."
Yea. I got a copy of his Adultery Paper a year (or so) after it came out. Seems the Org went into *High Protection Mode* immediately. Not only was he (John) labeled *possezzed*, but so would anyone who even READ the thing.
Clamping the lid tight on Pandora's the lock box.
Interesting, isn't it.
I read it here, somewhere in the documents. I thought, what's the big deal? I mean.. even a seven year old knows daddy isn't supposed to be sleeping in a bed somewhere with an alternate "mommy"..
Sorry "Johnny".. we can't trespass on pa's "freedom in christ" to spread the seed, ahem, the word of gawd(?), ahem.."
Plus I wonder.. how many details were placed in the hand of your overseer's overseer. How much debt one had, how many times and when one had sex with one's spouse, how much is in the bank, etc. etc.
Very personal information.
I wonder if as they were considered a counsellor or advisor in the organization, one could bring criminal charges against them for violating confidentiality. They had the organization's stamp of approval after all..
I'd like to see them argue that before a judge.. "well your honor, he had debt. Therefore, he was a danger to himself and others. We had to tell.."
I agree Java Jane, there seems there were two lockbox practices, one for the average follower, another for the mogster's sexual appetites and worse..
There definitely is a double standard. Whatever personal details you tell an overseer gets repeated all the way up to directors / trustees. However, whatever the top dawgs do or say is "lockbox".
I'm sure family therapists have a different name than "lockbox" for the official family secrets that are never, never, ever suppposed to come out.
But they do manifest....in shame, guilt, rage, suicide, alcoholism, drug abuse, rape, incest, etc.
Totally true! I never thought about it in this category before.
After all, what is the need for secrets when you have nothing bad to hide? This is why I have always said that if everything is really resolved in twi, why don't they just come clean and say what was wrong and how they have fixed it?
They can't... reason being? They haven't really fixed anything.
But they were sure open with everyone's "spiritual" problems when they were kicked out of the WC or twi, weren't they? They were quick to bring those things right out in the public view, true or not. But their "lockbox" remains sealed.
The whole secrecy thing.. I suppose some of the motivation from the abuser was "now, you don't want to hurt da dumb MINISTRY now, do you? gawd will be upset.. " Oh no.. don't want some pseudo ministry blamed for anything.
Don't want to hurt da people ya know.. they just wouldn't understand. Besides, they aren't spiritual enough to "handle it" like you..
and the "enforcers" of the "peace" turn out to be recruited among one's own brothers and sisters..
how manipulative.
"Now don't tell.. ya know he'll get mad.. you know we're only supposed to talk about the bible.. where would we go anyway.."
What I don't understand is how the mogster's grip hasn't relaxed it's grasp around their throats, for over two decades after his death.
The "ministry" is DEAD. For the most part. What's the big deal? There isn't a "ministry" or a so-called mog's reputation left to save..
Frank, if I remember correctly, I think the scheduling of sex was just a corpse thing. Wouldn't surprise me if it hit the field with the last set of sycophants they unleashed though..
Isn't that kind of "odd" though, to intrude into one's personal life, no matter who they were, to the extent that you include IN WRITING your schedule of "personal time" with a spouse?
Kinda bizarre..
I think they knew how far to push your buttons, and the possible consequences..
same for me.
They got a nice polite.. "hmm. well, We'll think about it, and get back with you. That's it. Yeah. See ya sometime.."
I don't think you would have been as polite..
After you left cica 99,They did exactly that,Rob and sharon m did it.Twas not pleasant,at one point with sharon,I said it is none of anyones buisness,I will not go any further,she did agree.
Buttons?One time mr rob found out,he was yelling at his kid for getting his truck stuck in the snow december.I said calm down, he did not.so he ended up as@over teakettle in the snow,I said I told you to calm down.
Mr Ham,you always are a gentleman,and have always shown the utmost restraint.
Sunesis - oh yes ! You do find out you're not very special after all !!!!
Waysider, for some reason, I forgot about that in CF&S class. What a joke to even call that a "class".
--
How about "From Birth to the Corps" -- a required paper? (so healing to let it all out). Anyone recall that you were told you could keep your secrets locked in a box and not reveal them in that piece of "therapy"? I don't think so.
I was dismissed from the WayCorps in October 1984. 1984 I left manhatten Kansas as it was boring and I wanted to get the hell out of Dodge and move on with my life. I was still in the Way but not in the Corps. I drove cross country from Manhatten to Manville New jersey.
I stayed a night in Illinois, and I called HQ and asked if I could crash there, it was fine, I got there, no problem, go on to the Corps chalet, found it in the dark in a car, (that was strange) and took my stuff in and there were three or four people watching tv, it's late at night. And I sit down and they are watching Flesh Gordon. A Porn flick. I went to my room went to sleep got up had breakfast and split. That totally freaked me out. Nobody asked me if it was gonna bother me, ewwww. Acting like it was normal. I never breathed a word to anyone til now.
That made me sick I should have walked away then. I had no idea what was coming down the pike a couple of years later. I had no idea. I think God was trying to tell me something, I just could not believe what was going on so He couldn't tell me then.
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Ham
Look what happened to Sch*enheit..
just the POSSBILITY of supposed betrayal, the HINT of the mogster's wrong doing in a cheesy word study on adultery and he's outathere.. labelled possessed, along with those who may have read his paper..
The "enforcers" were successful enough burying him, I didn't know about it until here, years later.
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Sunesis
I remember when VP called me into the coach, sitting there in his bathrobe with nothing underneath an hour before the SNS at Emporia, grahically telling me what he'd like to do sexually to me, then telling me why he can't have sex with his wife and so he has to get it from other women. He told me I was the only person he'd ever told that, and I had to keep it lockbox. If it ever came back to him, he'd know I was the one who told and would know I couldn't be trusted because I had broken the "lockbox."
I remember thinking, I don't want to know this, why are you telling me these "secrets"?
Well, I never did tell. His anger was enough to shut me up. It was a few years later I found out from another early corps woman that it was the same line he used on her and other women he had sex with. There was nothing lockbox about it. But it was his method for keeping things secret.
He was adamant about the lockbox. I think that really was the biggest sin, in VP's eyes anyway - breaking the lockbox.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I remember huckster Vic teaching us about the lock box during the advanced class...
Little did I know at the time that this was his "safeguard doctrine" to hide his sexual escapades as well as other nefarious acts...
...turns out that all kinds of filthy deeds were covered up and hidden by a fairly sizeable number of people who took Vics cue and hid their own sins.
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Ham
and I think that's why some feel so uncomfortable upon seeing their beloved mentor tarred and feathered in an open forum. It's like.. if he was so wrong, where does that leave them, if they partook in the spoils? Some often insist the vicster was "born again" despite his lifestyle. I wonder.. if one cannot honestly consider the vicster's works, perhaps is it that they indeed cannot condemn their own? I'm not specifically naming names, I'm just trying to understand the behavior.
If the vicster's box gets unlocked, what about theirs?
Or is it the nagging feeling of a long anesthetised conscience tugging at one's pants legs.. old "stuff" that supposedly needs to stay carefully covered under wraps?
I remember one poster admitting some of this old "stuff" proudly. Too bad he got a beating, I think he would have revealed far more.
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brideofjc
You can be born again,but a backslider. If others are still keeping their lockbox mentality carefully locked, they should really think about repentance first and foremost. I don't think that anyone would want to walk into eternity with that kind of stuff still hidden away, for it won't be hidden anymore when the Lord Jesus begins their judgement.
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JavaJane
Interesting, too, how we were supposed to share EVERYTHING (remember full sharing??) about our lives, while so many things about the leadership were considered "lockbox."
Bit of a double standard.
Especially when you consider our little "sins" were nothing in comparison to that of the MOG... but we could get kicked out at a moment's notice.
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Ham
Plus I wonder.. how many details were placed in the hand of your overseer's overseer. How much debt one had, how many times and when one had sex with one's spouse, how much is in the bank, etc. etc.
Very personal information.
I wonder if as they were considered a counsellor or advisor in the organization, one could bring criminal charges against them for violating confidentiality. They had the organization's stamp of approval after all..
I'd like to see them argue that before a judge.. "well your honor, he had debt. Therefore, he was a danger to himself and others. We had to tell.."
I agree Java Jane, there seems there were two lockbox practices, one for the average follower, another for the mogster's sexual appetites and worse..
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frank123lol
I CAN HONESTLY SAY,i WAS NEVER ASKED HOW MANY TIMES i HAD SEX WITH MY WIFE,iF THEY HAD,i WOULD HAVE BEEN OUTTA THERE THAT MUCH SOONER.
Sorry to capiltize,but that even now pis@es me off.One leader told me that the state leader made a pass at his wife,she laughed at him.So I guess said state leader left with his tail between his legs.
Vp?Wish what I know then what I know now..outta there..Herr swine der vic may the worms crawl in worms crawl out.
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JavaJane
Yeah, I agree, frank! I always wondered when I heard stories about being asked about your married sex life if it was some sort of sick way for leadership to get off on what you were doing with your spouse. Yuck.
Or maybe if your spouse (or you) wasn't getting the prescribed amount it would give them an excuse to suggest some extracurricular activities to you or your spouse.
Either way,
:blink: sums it up best.
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dmiller
Yea. I got a copy of his Adultery Paper a year (or so) after it came out. Seems the Org went into *High Protection Mode* immediately. Not only was he (John) labeled *possezzed*, but so would anyone who even READ the thing.
Clamping the lid tight on Pandora's the lock box.
If I recollect correct (it's been a while since I've read it), he never mentioned names.
He never singled out anyone. He never mentioned specific instances.
He merely said ---- ADULTERY IS WRONG, and backed it up biblically.
Yup -- reading something like that there will certainly induce devil spirits.
Opening up your mind to *outside influences* -- even if it is God's Word.
A paper (such as this) should have been part of CFS, instead of the porn videos.
I'm reminded of the old adage --- "The guilty flee, when no one is in pursuit".
Alla dem dere in da Org musta bin feelin mahghty guilty! Ummmm Hmmmm!!!!
"What happens in the cornfield, stays in the cornfield." :unsure:
:(
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Ham
Frank, if I remember correctly, I think the scheduling of sex was just a corpse thing. Wouldn't surprise me if it hit the field with the last set of sycophants they unleashed though..
Isn't that kind of "odd" though, to intrude into one's personal life, no matter who they were, to the extent that you include IN WRITING your schedule of "personal time" with a spouse?
Kinda bizarre..
I think they knew how far to push your buttons, and the possible consequences..
same for me.
They got a nice polite.. "hmm. well, We'll think about it, and get back with you. That's it. Yeah. See ya sometime.."
I don't think you would have been as polite..
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Ham
Interesting, isn't it.
I read it here, somewhere in the documents. I thought, what's the big deal? I mean.. even a seven year old knows daddy isn't supposed to be sleeping in a bed somewhere with an alternate "mommy"..
Sorry "Johnny".. we can't trespass on pa's "freedom in christ" to spread the seed, ahem, the word of gawd(?), ahem.."
these people were (are) nuts..
it's friggin insane..
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waysider
The "lockbox" was taught in Christian Sex And More Sex as early as 1973 or 1974.
He said you should not reveal all the details of your past sexual history to your spouse after you marry.
He specifically referred to this as a "lockbox" (sic)
Sounds like more "grooming" to me. <_<
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chockfull
There definitely is a double standard. Whatever personal details you tell an overseer gets repeated all the way up to directors / trustees. However, whatever the top dawgs do or say is "lockbox".
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polar bear
By telling others about his lock box secret with his wife he was breaking his own rule.
Proves he was a liar too.
Another deceitful act to the growing list.
Reminds me of the joke about the teacher asking what the father of this kid did for a living.
The kid says "he's an artist".
Teacher says-Oh what kind of an artist is he.
The kid says "a con artist".
(Must have been one of the Vicsters kids.)
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Yanagisawa
I'm sure family therapists have a different name than "lockbox" for the official family secrets that are never, never, ever suppposed to come out.
But they do manifest....in shame, guilt, rage, suicide, alcoholism, drug abuse, rape, incest, etc.
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JavaJane
Totally true! I never thought about it in this category before.
After all, what is the need for secrets when you have nothing bad to hide? This is why I have always said that if everything is really resolved in twi, why don't they just come clean and say what was wrong and how they have fixed it?
They can't... reason being? They haven't really fixed anything.
But they were sure open with everyone's "spiritual" problems when they were kicked out of the WC or twi, weren't they? They were quick to bring those things right out in the public view, true or not. But their "lockbox" remains sealed.
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outandabout
In the twelve steps programs they say "You're as sick as your secrets."
We were supposed to "share" so much and then on the other hand keep things in a "Lock-Box." How confusing.
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Ham
The whole secrecy thing.. I suppose some of the motivation from the abuser was "now, you don't want to hurt da dumb MINISTRY now, do you? gawd will be upset.. " Oh no.. don't want some pseudo ministry blamed for anything.
Don't want to hurt da people ya know.. they just wouldn't understand. Besides, they aren't spiritual enough to "handle it" like you..
and the "enforcers" of the "peace" turn out to be recruited among one's own brothers and sisters..
how manipulative.
"Now don't tell.. ya know he'll get mad.. you know we're only supposed to talk about the bible.. where would we go anyway.."
What I don't understand is how the mogster's grip hasn't relaxed it's grasp around their throats, for over two decades after his death.
The "ministry" is DEAD. For the most part. What's the big deal? There isn't a "ministry" or a so-called mog's reputation left to save..
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cheranne
There never really was a "ministry".it was a buisness with a pretty bow around the bible
we all were decieved by the deciever and father of lies.
Only EXPOSURE of this will bring forth Truth.
It is strange how it doesn't feel so dark when your in the darkness(because you have adjusted to the
dark)
Getting out of The Way International we must adjust to Light(or just stay in darkness where there is no
Light)
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frank123lol
After you left cica 99,They did exactly that,Rob and sharon m did it.Twas not pleasant,at one point with sharon,I said it is none of anyones buisness,I will not go any further,she did agree.
Buttons?One time mr rob found out,he was yelling at his kid for getting his truck stuck in the snow december.I said calm down, he did not.so he ended up as@over teakettle in the snow,I said I told you to calm down.
Mr Ham,you always are a gentleman,and have always shown the utmost restraint.
Kinder gentler?Only if you tell all to em .
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excathedra
What an interesting thread, so close to my heart.
Sunesis - oh yes ! You do find out you're not very special after all !!!!
Waysider, for some reason, I forgot about that in CF&S class. What a joke to even call that a "class".
--
How about "From Birth to the Corps" -- a required paper? (so healing to let it all out). Anyone recall that you were told you could keep your secrets locked in a box and not reveal them in that piece of "therapy"? I don't think so.
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lucyvanpelt
Here comes a cat outta the bag.
I was dismissed from the WayCorps in October 1984. 1984 I left manhatten Kansas as it was boring and I wanted to get the hell out of Dodge and move on with my life. I was still in the Way but not in the Corps. I drove cross country from Manhatten to Manville New jersey.
I stayed a night in Illinois, and I called HQ and asked if I could crash there, it was fine, I got there, no problem, go on to the Corps chalet, found it in the dark in a car, (that was strange) and took my stuff in and there were three or four people watching tv, it's late at night. And I sit down and they are watching Flesh Gordon. A Porn flick. I went to my room went to sleep got up had breakfast and split. That totally freaked me out. Nobody asked me if it was gonna bother me, ewwww. Acting like it was normal. I never breathed a word to anyone til now.
That made me sick I should have walked away then. I had no idea what was coming down the pike a couple of years later. I had no idea. I think God was trying to tell me something, I just could not believe what was going on so He couldn't tell me then.
Weird.......
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brideofjc
Yes, the usual term for these things are: SKELETONS IN YOUR CLOSET!
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