oenophile, thank you for that reference to the leaven. I just had a "doh!' moment, and it occured to me that the meaning of those words of Jesus may not be understood by some of us as you present it, and it's a great opportunity to cover that ground again here. The general principle isn't even limited to the statements in the gospel, it's a kind of wisdom that appears in other proverbs and sayings.
A point that's often made 'round here is - isn't is possible that VPW could act out of character with what he taught - ie, teach the "truth" of "God's Word" but not live that way, or do terrible things on the one hand but still teach "truth". Hypothetically, yes, anyone could. That's a gimme as they say.
Leaven works through fermentation. Bread "rises" because of what the yeast, the leaven does. It fills it with gas. The whole load of bread is "leavened" as a result. Like the woman in Matthew 13: 33 - Another parable spoke he to them; The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
What Jesus is describing as a processs is different than doing one thing wrong over here, and another thing right over there and so you have two completely separate and standalone events. It's not teach something right here, something wrong there, can't the right be right on it's own....? That's not what He meant when describing the leavening of the Pharisees doctrine.
The process He describes does something different - it DOES promulgate and effect the whole of everything that's done.
My point is something that's probably obvious to a lot of us but maybe not to others when it comes to this discussion - Jesus meant to let His followers know that it IS possible to have everything good go bad, due to a very small amount of error and He used leavening to teach it. The whole "loaf" is then leavened, or in that case, tainted by the errors of the Pharisees.
That may not seem "logical" to someone who wants to break things down using a hierarchical type of evaluation, where things are layerd from top to bottom, or even a sequential system of 1,2,3,4 where each item or event is treated separately but potentially equally. The idea of leavening is a deeper view into process. Since He used it, it's worth knowing and understanding and certainly not worth refuting or denying.
It accounts for areas of spirituality and life that would otherwise be difficult to manage and understand using a flat linear kind of logic.
Thanks DWBH for that great thought provoking post.
Hearing what Oldies and Mike have to say proves even more to me that what VP was promoting a false way of life.
He always thought he was right as they do.
Notice how they go running for the hills when their logic is broken down.
Yes Jesus Christ was constantly attacking the religious leaders of his day not for their speech, but for their actions.
I'm not running anywhere.
Where do you get false information like that?
Oldiesman only posts during the work week, not on weekends.
How much OTHER false information have you gorged on?
I'm done posting my message here, and debating, but I'm not running anywhere. Anyone can PM and/or e-mail me anytime they want if they want help from the bitterness that abounds. I am simply done debating with people who feast on falsehoods. I could take ANY of you on typing with one hand and I have done so for 5,000 posts and 5 years. If I were to take off the boxing gloves (which I won't) there'd be a lot of ants scurrying about.
I don't have the time, though, and this board was not set up to support my message. I'm thankful to Pawtucket to allowing me to post so much as he has, AND I owe him the return favor of not "taking over" with my superior set of ammunition. My God is the biggest on the block! Patueee!
I think I'll run for the hills now, just to "avoid the near occasion of sin" and not get involved any more. Like I said, I'm done with my message posting here, but I do like to hang around to see what's happening and to keep up with people socially. Please don't bother trying to engage me in debate or discussion. I've said all that I could say that's of substance. Five years and five thousand posts is ENOUGH!
Oldiesman only posts while at work, and not on weekends.
How much OTHER false information have you gorged on.
I'm done posting my message here, and debating, but I'm not running anywhere. Anyone can PM and/or e-mail me anytime they want if they want help from the bitterness that abounds. I am simply done debating with people who feast on falsehoods. I could take ANY of you on typing with one hand and I have done so for 5,000 posts and 5 years. If I were to take off the boxing gloves (which I won't) there'd be a lot of ants scurrying about.
I don't have the time, though, and this board is not set up to support my message. I'm thankful to Pawtucket to allowing me to post so much as he has, AND I owe him the return favor of not "taking over" with my superior set of ammunition. My God is the biggest on the block! Patueee!
Mike --- hey there. :) For the record --- I have no bitterness. Honest!
And given the testimony of first hand witnesses that abound here --
there's not much falsehood to *feast* on, as you suggest.
I'm not sure what your *superior set of ammunition* is
(though I can make an educated guess),
and it has failed in the past, run it's course, and has been found wanting.
DWBH posted a COURT DECISION, concerning twi, and then asked a simple question.
We're not discussing the merits, (or lack thereof) of pfal.
It was a court decision, and the ramifications of it is what is in question.
Any statement claiming to characterize the penalty or sanctions or anything else that adversely impacted TWI -- unless accompanied by or arising from an actual knowledge of said penalty, etc., is an empty assumption.
You're free to assume whatever you want about what it cost them. As usual, however, you appear to be speaking from an overwhelming lack of insight.
absolutely!
Rocky, try not to post like your applying for a job in the cult shoe dept. (csd) I realize some of you need to protect this thing like it's really a big victory against your way corps masters, so I'll let the last shoe drop.
By the w a y, where did you attend law school...Sooonis U??
T-Bone, it appears those verses are talking about a distinction that Jesus makes between the commandment of God and the traditions of men. The Pharisees by their traditions, the traditions of men, have made their traditions take the place of the commandments of God in their life; thus they have invalidated the word in that life, by their traditions. Doesn't make the word or commandments any less true. "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the traditions of men"... It doesn't say that the word or commandment of God is any less true because of the Pharisees behavior or traditions.
oldies, that's quite a bit of doublespeak there...
but i don't see how you can talk your way around this...
the text is clear!
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. (kjv)
vpw made the Word of God void by his teachings (his twisted interpretation of the bible)...
let me expand a little:
thus has vpw made the commandment of God [the Word] of none effect [akuroo=void, invalid, not binding, without authority]by his tradition [paradosis=instruction (both orally and written), precepts, the substance of a teaching]
thus has vpw made the Word of God void by his teaching...
oldies,
if you cling to the teachings of vpw (aka the traditions of vpw), then you do not have the Word of God (for the Word has been made void and invalid by vpw's "precepts")
that is the distinction!
vpw substituted his own precepts/teachings for the Word of Truth!
take your pick, vpw's teachings OR the Word of Truth (they are NOT the same thing)
thank you t-bone for bringing this verse to light...
Oldiesman only posts during the work week, not on weekends.
How much OTHER false information have you gorged on?
It's not false information pinky, it's a mistaken perception. Polar Bear may not be familiar with Oldies' tradition of posting only Monday - Friday and your fervant disregard for any evidence that doesn't support your POV.
I'm done posting my message here, and debating,
Well, thanks for small favors!
but I'm not running anywhere. Anyone can PM and/or e-mail me anytime they want if they want help from the bitterness that abounds.
:unsure:
I am simply done debating with people who feast on falsehoods. I could take ANY of you on typing with one hand and I have done so for 5,000 posts and 5 years. If I were to take off the boxing gloves (which I won't) there'd be a lot of ants scurrying about.
When you come by for that Leinenkugel you can tell me some more funny ones
I don't have the time, though, and this board is not set up to support my message. I'm thankful to Pawtucket to allowing me to post so much as he has, AND I owe him the return favor of not "taking over" with my superior set of ammunition. My God is the biggest on the block! Patueee!
And of course there's VP's brains and brawn, making the earth shake even lo, these many years after his demise.
T-Bone, it appears those verses are talking about a distinction that Jesus makes between the commandment of God and the traditions of men. The Pharisees by their traditions, the traditions of men, have made their traditions take the place of the commandments of God in their life; thus they have invalidated the word in that life, by their traditions. Doesn't make the word or commandments any less true. "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the traditions of men"... It doesn't say that the word or commandment of God is any less true because of the Pharisees behavior or traditions.
Sounds reasonable, except when you consider the "Word" or "Commandments of God" taught by VP. Then the whole premise is flawed. As many times as we heard--It's the word-the word and nothing but the word. We were not taught the word. We were taught a religion. The religion of VP. A very legalistic religion in fact--hmmm kinda like the Pharisees.
The true word is pure-Ps 12:6 19:7 and actually does condemn adultery and abuse, both spiritual and sexual. Do I ACTUALLY have to quote scripture on this one?
We never had the truth in the first place. So, VP et als behavoir fits like a hand in a glove with what he actually taught us.
Let's see some of the gems carved out for us.
True Godly sorrow and repentence-eh whatever-no longer have a sin problem--administration of grace dont-cha-know.
Abortion-Hey a-okay!
The ABSENT Christ????
MOG?? I thought the Pope was bad.
The Gospels were OT????????? For our learning--yeah we may have missed a few things in there. Wasn't John 10:10 the whole premise?
Believing=Recieving Works for saint and sinner alike?? Well, that sure takes God out of the equation.
The suggestion of the MOG is tantamount to a command--Please don't quote David to me--
Christians should be prosperous? Who says, Jesus didn't even have a place to lay his head?
Romans 13 - Taking old Billy out behind the woodshed.
John 1:1--at least the Jehova Witnesses got it. The company we kept!
The fear in the heart of that mother--
4 crucified-the 6 denials I forget how many temptations he added?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
What a crock!
This doesn't include the more advanced teachings for the uber-spiritual. Abusing the women of the kingdom to heal them--yep that's a gem. Real pure-peaceable and easy to be entreated.
No word in the Way to make void. What that man and his minions did is sadder than I can even express.
The condemnation heaped on his head is frightening Rev 22: 18 & 19 Oh, I forgot we don't fear the Lord. I bet he does now.
Shame he ruined the bible for so many. If you have not picked it up in awhile--it is a Great read, less the way doctrine-it makes some sense.
Well, aren't you super special and super spiritual Mike, just so far above all of us pathetic believers who don't believe your way - the way you think we all should. You say, I'm superior, I can take any of you on, you ants would scatter... blah, blah, blah.
Watch it, pride goeth before a fall. All I saw in your post was great pride.
You are a poster boy for the effect VP's leaven had.
Its sad. Folks, this is your brain on VP's teachings - they're like crack if you smoke 'em for years.
Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. Go now, run.
Oldiesman only posts during the work week, not on weekends.
How much OTHER false information have you gorged on?
I'm done posting my message here, and debating, but I'm not running anywhere. Anyone can PM and/or e-mail me anytime they want if they want help from the bitterness that abounds. I am simply done debating with people who feast on falsehoods. I could take ANY of you on typing with one hand and I have done so for 5,000 posts and 5 years. If I were to take off the boxing gloves (which I won't) there'd be a lot of ants scurrying about.
I don't have the time, though, and this board was not set up to support my message. I'm thankful to Pawtucket to allowing me to post so much as he has, AND I owe him the return favor of not "taking over" with my superior set of ammunition. My God is the biggest on the block! Patueee!
Meanwhile, back in the land of the original topic...
From the decree DWBH posted:
]"Similarly, in Count Six, plaintiffs allege that defendants engaged in a pattern of corrupt activity, which included acts. of assault and rape. There is evidence to indicate that both Rosalie Rivenbark and Ramona Bidon played a role in the events leading up to the sexual encounter between Craig Martindale and Mrs. Allen. [/b]A jury must decide whether the encounter was consensual, or if an assault occurred. If the jury finds that an assault occurred, the same jury might reasonably conclude that defendants engaged in a pattern of corrupt activity, which led to the assault."
For those who might be reading this who are still in twi, does this not give you pause, that the judge said she and Ms Bidon "played a role in the events leading up to the encounter between Craig Martindale and Mrs. Allen"? (Personally, I'd bet she had a hand in VPW's sexual activities, too).
Perhaps people still in twi think that poor Rosalie Fox Rivenbark was mischaracterized by the judge, that she was being persecuted for her "stand on the Word." Don't believe it. Her maiden name suits her well.
Here's an example of how solid her "stand on the Word" was. (I've brought this up before, but maybe there are some new lurkers in our midst who haven't seen it.) When I was receiving my staff evaluation from Ms. Rivenbark, I expressed concern that I was so busy with mandatory meetings and work that I had little time left to even read the Bible, much less study it. Do you know what her answer was? That I didn't need to read the Bible because I was reading ministry materials in my job Ha!
How solid a stand did she take on the word when she was lining up women for Criag Martindale's pleasure?
Since RFR is the current president of twi, I think she and her alleged stand on the Word deserve more scrutiny. As evidenced by the words of one dedicated innie who strolled through here, declaring that all is just peachy now that twi ran off those baaaaaaaaaaaaad leaders, Rosie's apparently still skilled at putting on a false front of spirituality and graciousness and goodness. Anyone who has known her knows better.
thanks for the good number of some of the most thoughtfully considered posts i've enjoyed reading here at the greasespot cafe!.........i sure do appreciate the insights and considered opinions that most of the posts so far on this thread have shared, as well as the interesting information..........imho, this is the point and purpose of reasoned, civil discussion........the goal being not to expect or demand agreement by all on the opinions of a few, but rather, the encouragement of understanding of the varied opinions expressed, along with promotion of mutual tolerance of the divergent beliefs expressed by avoiding the distractions of comments riddled with personal rancor, and/or frustrated reliance upon the use of logical fallacies......an unfortunate habit which some of our fellow greasespotters apparently find quite difficult to break............kudos to pawtucket, our mild-mannered host for allowing the expression of many divergent opinions, and our volunteer moderators whose record of "even-handed", respectful moderation of posts in the various forums helps to maintain a "reasonable order" in our greasespot community, and avoid the utter chaos of unrestrained, vitriolic "food fights"!
i chose to focus the subject of this topic on the words of judge schmitt because, imho, they are quite objective, and are an obviously serious, professional responsibility of an elected civil servant charged with the job of providing sound legal judgement to and for his constituents.........judge schmitt was never a member of twi, and therefore, even beyond the requirements of his job, he was able to avoid the highly charged emotions which swirled around and among the parties to this case......in addition let me state, that i used to live in his area of jurisdiction........spent 7 years there.........and i know, firsthand, of the animosity, contempt, anger, distrust, and even hatred toward twi and its "leaders" harbored by the large majority of folks who lived in new knoxville, st.mary's, minster, new bremen, sidney, and other towns surrounding twi hq, and among many of judge schmitt's constituents........emotions and opinions which the judge, to his credit, was able to keep out of his legal duties and opinions in this case.
the apparent inability of the vic/twi apologists to do the same with their own emotions and opinions in their mission to uphold their beliefs while trying to ignore, or otherwise rationalize the obvious and complete contradiction of vic's/twi's conduct with those beliefs, is disturbing to me..........many times, these apologists proclaim their thankfulness for our US constitution, and the "freedom of religion", and "freedom of speech" it wisely grants us as citizens of this nation, in an attempt to somehow add credence to their beliefs while ignoring or denying the obvious contradiction to vic's "teachings of truth" which his conduct so glaringly demonstrated!........they insist that his conduct has no bearing on "truth"............i disagree with what they assume "truth" is........they assume that vic "rightly divided" the bible, and thereby spoke "god's truth".........that is their interpretation regarding what "god's truth" is, imho!......my interpretation of what "god's truth" is, differs from their's.........however, they are profoundly intolerant of my intepretation of what "god's truth" is, to the point of insisting that vic's interpretation of the bible and "god's truth", is indeed the only valid interpretation because, in their minds it was somehow "god-breathed", and thereby inherently ordained and authorized by god himself to be "scriptural truth"...........pure and unadulterated!.............again, i disagree with their basic assumption!
as judge schmitt wrote in his final decree in the allen case, "The right to believe is absolute. The right to act is subject to reasonable regulation designed to protect a compelling state interest.....The United States Supreme Court has specifically held that while laws cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices........The Court finds that an important distinction exists between belief and conduct.The beliefs espoused by The Way, and its members, are not subject to review by this Court. The conduct of The Way, and its members, is subject to reasonable regulationdesignedto protect a compelling state interest. The First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution cannot be used to protect The Way, or its members, against legislation for the punishment of acts inimical to the peace, good order and morals of society........ Accordingly, the Ohio Supreme Court has determined that sexual misconduct by clergy is not protected by any claim of First Amendment privilege.........Similarly, a religious organization can be held liable for failing to protect its members from the sexual assaults of its employees.........The Court finds that Craig Martindale's sexual encounters with Mrs. Allen must be considered as conduct, rather than beliefs.".........i firmly believe that there is indeed, "a compelling state interest" in the "reasonable regulation" of "the conduct of The Way, and its members"!........conduct which, imho, was and remains, "inimical to the peace, good order, and morals of society"!...........as responsible citizens of the state, and as concerned members of society, i believe our interest in these matters is, and should be, as "compelling" as it was for judge schmitt!............and i also believe, that even though der victoid now "sleeps with the fishes", our interest in helping his surviving victims arrive at a point of healing and closure in their lives, from vic's conduct toward them, is, and should be equally "compelling"!!!
if the vic/twi apologists choose to remain intellectually incapable of making the same distinctions judge schmitt made, and remain adamant in their devaluation of the destructive psychosocial impact vic's/twi's conduct had upon our society in general, and specfically upon far too many of our brothers and sisters in christ...........then, imho, the words of jesus christ spoken to the "scribes and pharisees" of his time are equally applicable to these "scribes and pharisees" of our current generation.........."woe be unto you scribes and pharisees!......ye hypocrites!"!!!...............................peace.
Meanwhile, back in the land of the original topic...
How solid a stand did she take on the word when she was lining up women for Criag Martindale's pleasure?
Now THAT is a pretty HOT Question(PHQ)! Sitting here en France where the lights are going down, can some of you Way Corps Babes (WCB) spewing fire for former days, let us lonely boys know some of THOSE wild and crazy details?? Of Rosie the Riveting PR Rover!
DWBH - those pieces really do speak to the concerns that those in the local community and certainly the Way community should have.
The comparison with Pharisees in the times of the gospels can seem harsh, even inappropriate to many but not when viewed through the logic of Jesus's statements.
The personal conduct of the Pharisees was what made them "hypocrites" in Jesus's view. He said to them, you say one thing and do another. He told them you're leaven poisons the whole loaf. As the kingdom of heaven was likened to a small amount of leaven added to 3 measure of meal that caused the whole loaf to rise, so did the leaven of their errors. And what were there errors, their "sins"? Their hypocrisy - teaching one thing, doing another. Teaching things added on to and into the scriptures as God's Word, as doctrine and requiring that those elucidations and elaborations were as vital to obedience to God as the scriptures they worked from.
Joeseph Stowell has a book "Fan the Flame, and one thing that's covered is the effects of their approach, pretty much along the lines of what Jesus objected to - I've added my thoughts on how some ways they compare to the Way International:
-New laws continually need to be invented for new situations.
- "current prevailing truth" - sounds familiar.
-Accountability to God is replaced by accountability to men.
- "this ministry is the only place where the true believer today can learn and stand - the Way Household".
-It reduces a person's ability to personally discern.
- Follow the leader, the next person up the chain of command knows what's best for you. Your own relationship with God reduced to include a mandatory relationship with one of "God's representatives".
-It creates a judgmental spirit.
- You're out of fellowship and in bad standing because house not clean, children rowdy, smile not big enough today, tithing not current, attendance spotty, unable to make meetings and classes, don't agree with the edicts of the ministry, sickness, art on the walls that leaders don't like, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
-The Pharisees confused personal preferences with divine law.
- This kind of music is "godly" that kind isn't, political preferences, clothing styles, and other things that ministry leaders assume to be "divine" guidance for their day and their people.
-It produces inconsistencies.
- Different leaders, different states, different policies and preferences, and changing preferences and "guidance" when proven wrong.
-It created a false standard of righteousness.
- Don't tithe and God "won't spit" in your direction.
-It became a burden to the Jews.
- Required observance of ministry edicts and policies add an ever increasing regimen of do's and don'ts.
In relation to Sock's listing of the practice of legalism that proliferated in The Way, our in residence coordinator in 1980 said that, and this is a paraphrase; "If we abandon walking in the love of God, then the ministry will become nothing but a bunch of rules and regulations to live by: "Get up at seven, do prayers at 0730, the ministry will keep track of your tithing, the ministry will keep track of your twig attendance, the ministry will keep track how much you pay for rent or for your mortgage, the ministry will grade your spirituality according to the amount of your involvement, yada yada yada and on down the line. In short, a legalistic religion that will smother out all good works done out of the love of God, and there will be nothing left but legalism and it will then be dead. No more fun, no more God, just empty religion".
And I must say that after reading of the incredible control laid down on people after I left in '88, it certainly seemed to have gone that way! I think it had gotten that way before '88 fore shore, but it was far more "unspoken" then it later became when LCM went on his rampage and purging, etc. Glad I checked out when I did...
And I must say that after reading of the incredible control laid down on people after I left in '88, it certainly seemed to have gone that way! I think it had gotten that way before '88 fore shore, but it was far more "unspoken" then it later became when LCM went on his rampage and purging, etc. Glad I checked out when I did...
Why was that do you think? I don't think it was because Martindale just lost his mind one day. The seeds of control and legalism were always there, think back to Wierwille's takeover of The Way East and The Way West and his attempted takeover of Wade's Australia work. Why do you think that The Way Corps and WOW Ambassadors were instituted? So that Wierwille would have control over leadership and outreach, instead of letting it develop naturally and organically.
Martindale saw the relative freedom that wayfers had pre-1988 as a weakness that needed to be eliminated. Of course he lacked the skill and subtlty at manipulation that Wierwille had, Martindale was a sledgehammer compared to Wierwille's scalpel.
Why was that do you think? I don't think it was because Martindale just lost his mind one day. The seeds of control and legalism were always there,
Why Oakspeare, I think that this statement that I made most assuredly indicates that I conclude the same;
I think it had gotten that way before '88 fore shore, but it was far more "unspoken"
I highlighted "way before" just for the sake of making sure you know that I said it. And so, during my experience in The Way, there was far far less " in the open" legalistic control within the areas where I was involved. It's only an observation. Fortunately for me and the many good people who got involved, we were given much free rein which meant that we innocents who just wanted to help people were able to do so, at least to some degree. And yes, "LCM the the sledge hammer", a fine description of the Okie King...
Martindale saw the relative freedom that wayfers had pre-1988 as a weakness that needed to be eliminated. Of course he lacked the skill and subtlty at manipulation that Wierwille had, Martindale was a sledgehammer compared to Wierwille's scalpel.
True ... what a lughead ...
But also craig was a nobody to most ... vp was "the man" and he had acquired a certain blind respect. But all I remember about lcm teachings was that he was loud ...
I don't know that Craig saw the old freedom as weakness, but he was in charge of a sinking ship after POP, and there really was no solution except to disband or fully acknowledge all evils and resign. So rather than abandon ship, he required devotees that would work harder to bail him out. Many seemed so addicted that they just couldn't leave and "let the word die".
Why Oakspeare, I think that this statement that I made most assuredly indicates that I conclude the same;
I highlighted "way before" just for the sake of making sure you know that I said it. And so, during my experience in The Way, there was far far less " in the open" legalistic control within the areas where I was involved. It's only an observation. Fortunately for me and the many good people who got involved, we were given much free rein which meant that we innocents who just wanted to help people were able to do so, at least to some degree. And yes, "LCM the the sledge hammer", a fine description of the Okie King...
Didn't mean to imply that I was disagreeing with you Lingus...
I also think that as time went by the number of leaders who agreed with the top down control agenda increased, making it much easier to control the masses. By the mid to late 90's I believe fewer and fewer people went into the Corps for godly reasons and more and more to push the "purify the household" agenda of King Okie
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geisha779
"it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite th
geisha779
Excathedra, Your dignity inspires-so right back at ya sister! Sunesis, Ain't it the truth. Step away from the light, I mean the church. WOW! Been years since I have played "Bible Gotcha" Seems to
geisha779
Sounds reasonable, except when you consider the "Word" or "Commandments of God" taught by VP. Then the whole premise is flawed. As many times as we heard--It's the word-the word and nothing but the wo
socks
Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees
oenophile, thank you for that reference to the leaven. I just had a "doh!' moment, and it occured to me that the meaning of those words of Jesus may not be understood by some of us as you present it, and it's a great opportunity to cover that ground again here. The general principle isn't even limited to the statements in the gospel, it's a kind of wisdom that appears in other proverbs and sayings.
A point that's often made 'round here is - isn't is possible that VPW could act out of character with what he taught - ie, teach the "truth" of "God's Word" but not live that way, or do terrible things on the one hand but still teach "truth". Hypothetically, yes, anyone could. That's a gimme as they say.
Leaven works through fermentation. Bread "rises" because of what the yeast, the leaven does. It fills it with gas.
The whole load of bread is "leavened" as a result. Like the woman in Matthew 13: 33 - Another parable spoke he to them; The kingdom of heaven is like to leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
What Jesus is describing as a processs is different than doing one thing wrong over here, and another thing right over there and so you have two completely separate and standalone events. It's not teach something right here, something wrong there, can't the right be right on it's own....? That's not what He meant when describing the leavening of the Pharisees doctrine.
The process He describes does something different - it DOES promulgate and effect the whole of everything that's done.
My point is something that's probably obvious to a lot of us but maybe not to others when it comes to this discussion - Jesus meant to let His followers know that it IS possible to have everything good go bad, due to a very small amount of error and He used leavening to teach it. The whole "loaf" is then leavened, or in that case, tainted by the errors of the Pharisees.
That may not seem "logical" to someone who wants to break things down using a hierarchical type of evaluation, where things are layerd from top to bottom, or even a sequential system of 1,2,3,4 where each item or event is treated separately but potentially equally. The idea of leavening is a deeper view into process. Since He used it, it's worth knowing and understanding and certainly not worth refuting or denying.
It accounts for areas of spirituality and life that would otherwise be difficult to manage and understand using a flat linear kind of logic.
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Mike
I'm not running anywhere.
Where do you get false information like that?
Oldiesman only posts during the work week, not on weekends.
How much OTHER false information have you gorged on?
I'm done posting my message here, and debating, but I'm not running anywhere. Anyone can PM and/or e-mail me anytime they want if they want help from the bitterness that abounds. I am simply done debating with people who feast on falsehoods. I could take ANY of you on typing with one hand and I have done so for 5,000 posts and 5 years. If I were to take off the boxing gloves (which I won't) there'd be a lot of ants scurrying about.
I don't have the time, though, and this board was not set up to support my message. I'm thankful to Pawtucket to allowing me to post so much as he has, AND I owe him the return favor of not "taking over" with my superior set of ammunition. My God is the biggest on the block! Patueee!
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Mike
Oops. I'm so mad I double posted!
Calming down......
I think I'll run for the hills now, just to "avoid the near occasion of sin" and not get involved any more. Like I said, I'm done with my message posting here, but I do like to hang around to see what's happening and to keep up with people socially. Please don't bother trying to engage me in debate or discussion. I've said all that I could say that's of substance. Five years and five thousand posts is ENOUGH!
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dmiller
Mike --- hey there. :) For the record --- I have no bitterness. Honest!
And given the testimony of first hand witnesses that abound here --
there's not much falsehood to *feast* on, as you suggest.
I'm not sure what your *superior set of ammunition* is
(though I can make an educated guess),
and it has failed in the past, run it's course, and has been found wanting.
DWBH posted a COURT DECISION, concerning twi, and then asked a simple question.
We're not discussing the merits, (or lack thereof) of pfal.
It was a court decision, and the ramifications of it is what is in question.
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Bumpy
Rocky, try not to post like your applying for a job in the cult shoe dept. (csd) I realize some of you need to protect this thing like it's really a big victory against your way corps masters, so I'll let the last shoe drop.
By the w a y, where did you attend law school...Sooonis U??
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jen-o
but i don't see how you can talk your way around this...
the text is clear!
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. (kjv)
vpw made the Word of God void by his teachings (his twisted interpretation of the bible)...
let me expand a little:
thus has vpw made the commandment of God [the Word] of none effect [akuroo=void, invalid, not binding, without authority] by his tradition [paradosis=instruction (both orally and written), precepts, the substance of a teaching]
thus has vpw made the Word of God void by his teaching...
oldies,
if you cling to the teachings of vpw (aka the traditions of vpw), then you do not have the Word of God (for the Word has been made void and invalid by vpw's "precepts")
that is the distinction!
vpw substituted his own precepts/teachings for the Word of Truth!
take your pick, vpw's teachings OR the Word of Truth (they are NOT the same thing)
thank you t-bone for bringing this verse to light...
peace,
jen-o
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Oakspear
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waysider
Good luck to you, Mike.
I hope you catch your Golden Pony.
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geisha779
Sounds reasonable, except when you consider the "Word" or "Commandments of God" taught by VP. Then the whole premise is flawed. As many times as we heard--It's the word-the word and nothing but the word. We were not taught the word. We were taught a religion. The religion of VP. A very legalistic religion in fact--hmmm kinda like the Pharisees.
The true word is pure-Ps 12:6 19:7 and actually does condemn adultery and abuse, both spiritual and sexual. Do I ACTUALLY have to quote scripture on this one?
We never had the truth in the first place. So, VP et als behavoir fits like a hand in a glove with what he actually taught us.
Let's see some of the gems carved out for us.
True Godly sorrow and repentence-eh whatever-no longer have a sin problem--administration of grace dont-cha-know.
Abortion-Hey a-okay!
The ABSENT Christ????
MOG?? I thought the Pope was bad.
The Gospels were OT????????? For our learning--yeah we may have missed a few things in there. Wasn't John 10:10 the whole premise?
Believing=Recieving Works for saint and sinner alike?? Well, that sure takes God out of the equation.
The suggestion of the MOG is tantamount to a command--Please don't quote David to me--
Christians should be prosperous? Who says, Jesus didn't even have a place to lay his head?
Romans 13 - Taking old Billy out behind the woodshed.
John 1:1--at least the Jehova Witnesses got it. The company we kept!
The fear in the heart of that mother--
4 crucified-the 6 denials I forget how many temptations he added?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
What a crock!
This doesn't include the more advanced teachings for the uber-spiritual. Abusing the women of the kingdom to heal them--yep that's a gem. Real pure-peaceable and easy to be entreated.
No word in the Way to make void. What that man and his minions did is sadder than I can even express.
The condemnation heaped on his head is frightening Rev 22: 18 & 19 Oh, I forgot we don't fear the Lord. I bet he does now.
Shame he ruined the bible for so many. If you have not picked it up in awhile--it is a Great read, less the way doctrine-it makes some sense.
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Sunesis
Well, aren't you super special and super spiritual Mike, just so far above all of us pathetic believers who don't believe your way - the way you think we all should. You say, I'm superior, I can take any of you on, you ants would scatter... blah, blah, blah.
Watch it, pride goeth before a fall. All I saw in your post was great pride.
You are a poster boy for the effect VP's leaven had.
Its sad. Folks, this is your brain on VP's teachings - they're like crack if you smoke 'em for years.
Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. Go now, run.
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JeffSjo
This was my best laugh today so far.
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Linda Z
Meanwhile, back in the land of the original topic...
From the decree DWBH posted:
For those who might be reading this who are still in twi, does this not give you pause, that the judge said she and Ms Bidon "played a role in the events leading up to the encounter between Craig Martindale and Mrs. Allen"? (Personally, I'd bet she had a hand in VPW's sexual activities, too).
Perhaps people still in twi think that poor Rosalie Fox Rivenbark was mischaracterized by the judge, that she was being persecuted for her "stand on the Word." Don't believe it. Her maiden name suits her well.
Here's an example of how solid her "stand on the Word" was. (I've brought this up before, but maybe there are some new lurkers in our midst who haven't seen it.) When I was receiving my staff evaluation from Ms. Rivenbark, I expressed concern that I was so busy with mandatory meetings and work that I had little time left to even read the Bible, much less study it. Do you know what her answer was? That I didn't need to read the Bible because I was reading ministry materials in my job Ha!
How solid a stand did she take on the word when she was lining up women for Criag Martindale's pleasure?
Since RFR is the current president of twi, I think she and her alleged stand on the Word deserve more scrutiny. As evidenced by the words of one dedicated innie who strolled through here, declaring that all is just peachy now that twi ran off those baaaaaaaaaaaaad leaders, Rosie's apparently still skilled at putting on a false front of spirituality and graciousness and goodness. Anyone who has known her knows better.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi once again fellow greasespotters!
thanks for the good number of some of the most thoughtfully considered posts i've enjoyed reading here at the greasespot cafe!.........i sure do appreciate the insights and considered opinions that most of the posts so far on this thread have shared, as well as the interesting information..........imho, this is the point and purpose of reasoned, civil discussion........the goal being not to expect or demand agreement by all on the opinions of a few, but rather, the encouragement of understanding of the varied opinions expressed, along with promotion of mutual tolerance of the divergent beliefs expressed by avoiding the distractions of comments riddled with personal rancor, and/or frustrated reliance upon the use of logical fallacies......an unfortunate habit which some of our fellow greasespotters apparently find quite difficult to break............kudos to pawtucket, our mild-mannered host for allowing the expression of many divergent opinions, and our volunteer moderators whose record of "even-handed", respectful moderation of posts in the various forums helps to maintain a "reasonable order" in our greasespot community, and avoid the utter chaos of unrestrained, vitriolic "food fights"!
i chose to focus the subject of this topic on the words of judge schmitt because, imho, they are quite objective, and are an obviously serious, professional responsibility of an elected civil servant charged with the job of providing sound legal judgement to and for his constituents.........judge schmitt was never a member of twi, and therefore, even beyond the requirements of his job, he was able to avoid the highly charged emotions which swirled around and among the parties to this case......in addition let me state, that i used to live in his area of jurisdiction........spent 7 years there.........and i know, firsthand, of the animosity, contempt, anger, distrust, and even hatred toward twi and its "leaders" harbored by the large majority of folks who lived in new knoxville, st.mary's, minster, new bremen, sidney, and other towns surrounding twi hq, and among many of judge schmitt's constituents........emotions and opinions which the judge, to his credit, was able to keep out of his legal duties and opinions in this case.
the apparent inability of the vic/twi apologists to do the same with their own emotions and opinions in their mission to uphold their beliefs while trying to ignore, or otherwise rationalize the obvious and complete contradiction of vic's/twi's conduct with those beliefs, is disturbing to me..........many times, these apologists proclaim their thankfulness for our US constitution, and the "freedom of religion", and "freedom of speech" it wisely grants us as citizens of this nation, in an attempt to somehow add credence to their beliefs while ignoring or denying the obvious contradiction to vic's "teachings of truth" which his conduct so glaringly demonstrated!........they insist that his conduct has no bearing on "truth"............i disagree with what they assume "truth" is........they assume that vic "rightly divided" the bible, and thereby spoke "god's truth".........that is their interpretation regarding what "god's truth" is, imho!......my interpretation of what "god's truth" is, differs from their's.........however, they are profoundly intolerant of my intepretation of what "god's truth" is, to the point of insisting that vic's interpretation of the bible and "god's truth", is indeed the only valid interpretation because, in their minds it was somehow "god-breathed", and thereby inherently ordained and authorized by god himself to be "scriptural truth"...........pure and unadulterated!.............again, i disagree with their basic assumption!
as judge schmitt wrote in his final decree in the allen case, "The right to believe is absolute. The right to act is subject to reasonable regulation designed to protect a compelling state interest.....The United States Supreme Court has specifically held that while laws cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices........The Court finds that an important distinction exists between belief and conduct. The beliefs espoused by The Way, and its members, are not subject to review by this Court. The conduct of The Way, and its members, is subject to reasonable regulation designed to protect a compelling state interest. The First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution cannot be used to protect The Way, or its members, against legislation for the punishment of acts inimical to the peace, good order and morals of society........ Accordingly, the Ohio Supreme Court has determined that sexual misconduct by clergy is not protected by any claim of First Amendment privilege.........Similarly, a religious organization can be held liable for failing to protect its members from the sexual assaults of its employees.........The Court finds that Craig Martindale's sexual encounters with Mrs. Allen must be considered as conduct, rather than beliefs.".........i firmly believe that there is indeed, "a compelling state interest" in the "reasonable regulation" of "the conduct of The Way, and its members"!........conduct which, imho, was and remains, "inimical to the peace, good order, and morals of society"!...........as responsible citizens of the state, and as concerned members of society, i believe our interest in these matters is, and should be, as "compelling" as it was for judge schmitt!............and i also believe, that even though der victoid now "sleeps with the fishes", our interest in helping his surviving victims arrive at a point of healing and closure in their lives, from vic's conduct toward them, is, and should be equally "compelling"!!!
if the vic/twi apologists choose to remain intellectually incapable of making the same distinctions judge schmitt made, and remain adamant in their devaluation of the destructive psychosocial impact vic's/twi's conduct had upon our society in general, and specfically upon far too many of our brothers and sisters in christ...........then, imho, the words of jesus christ spoken to the "scribes and pharisees" of his time are equally applicable to these "scribes and pharisees" of our current generation.........."woe be unto you scribes and pharisees!......ye hypocrites!"!!!...............................peace.
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Bumpy
Now THAT is a pretty HOT Question(PHQ)! Sitting here en France where the lights are going down, can some of you Way Corps Babes (WCB) spewing fire for former days, let us lonely boys know some of THOSE wild and crazy details??
Of Rosie the Riveting PR Rover! 
Linda Baby!
Hit Me!! Le bump
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doojable
I'm going to paraphrase some scripture again.
That section where it says that "with their lips they do worship me but their heart is far from me..."
If that doesn't describe RFR and her ilk - what does?
They use the words - but they are used to deceive.
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socks
DWBH - those pieces really do speak to the concerns that those in the local community and certainly the Way community should have.
The comparison with Pharisees in the times of the gospels can seem harsh, even inappropriate to many but not when viewed through the logic of Jesus's statements.
The personal conduct of the Pharisees was what made them "hypocrites" in Jesus's view. He said to them, you say one thing and do another. He told them you're leaven poisons the whole loaf. As the kingdom of heaven was likened to a small amount of leaven added to 3 measure of meal that caused the whole loaf to rise, so did the leaven of their errors. And what were there errors, their "sins"? Their hypocrisy - teaching one thing, doing another. Teaching things added on to and into the scriptures as God's Word, as doctrine and requiring that those elucidations and elaborations were as vital to obedience to God as the scriptures they worked from.
Joeseph Stowell has a book "Fan the Flame, and one thing that's covered is the effects of their approach, pretty much along the lines of what Jesus objected to - I've added my thoughts on how some ways they compare to the Way International:
-New laws continually need to be invented for new situations.
- "current prevailing truth" - sounds familiar.
-Accountability to God is replaced by accountability to men.
- "this ministry is the only place where the true believer today can learn and stand - the Way Household".
-It reduces a person's ability to personally discern.
- Follow the leader, the next person up the chain of command knows what's best for you. Your own relationship with God reduced to include a mandatory relationship with one of "God's representatives".
-It creates a judgmental spirit.
- You're out of fellowship and in bad standing because house not clean, children rowdy, smile not big enough today, tithing not current, attendance spotty, unable to make meetings and classes, don't agree with the edicts of the ministry, sickness, art on the walls that leaders don't like, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
-The Pharisees confused personal preferences with divine law.
- This kind of music is "godly" that kind isn't, political preferences, clothing styles, and other things that ministry leaders assume to be "divine" guidance for their day and their people.
-It produces inconsistencies.
- Different leaders, different states, different policies and preferences, and changing preferences and "guidance" when proven wrong.
-It created a false standard of righteousness.
- Don't tithe and God "won't spit" in your direction.
-It became a burden to the Jews.
- Required observance of ministry edicts and policies add an ever increasing regimen of do's and don'ts.
-It was strictly external.
- Busy work for the spiritually minded.
-It was rejected by Christ.
- He didn't like it either.
-
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Bumpy
You look too young to be reading adult material! Do your parents know what sites you are looking at ...go back to bed!
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coolchef
mike, if you don't like it here anymore i hope the door doesn't hit you on your arse on your way out
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krys
I'm thinking of how the Judge's comments put everything in such a different light now. There is no end to the depth of their evil, is there!
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J0nny Ling0
In relation to Sock's listing of the practice of legalism that proliferated in The Way, our in residence coordinator in 1980 said that, and this is a paraphrase; "If we abandon walking in the love of God, then the ministry will become nothing but a bunch of rules and regulations to live by: "Get up at seven, do prayers at 0730, the ministry will keep track of your tithing, the ministry will keep track of your twig attendance, the ministry will keep track how much you pay for rent or for your mortgage, the ministry will grade your spirituality according to the amount of your involvement, yada yada yada and on down the line. In short, a legalistic religion that will smother out all good works done out of the love of God, and there will be nothing left but legalism and it will then be dead. No more fun, no more God, just empty religion".
And I must say that after reading of the incredible control laid down on people after I left in '88, it certainly seemed to have gone that way! I think it had gotten that way before '88 fore shore, but it was far more "unspoken" then it later became when LCM went on his rampage and purging, etc. Glad I checked out when I did...
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Oakspear
Martindale saw the relative freedom that wayfers had pre-1988 as a weakness that needed to be eliminated. Of course he lacked the skill and subtlty at manipulation that Wierwille had, Martindale was a sledgehammer compared to Wierwille's scalpel.
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J0nny Ling0
I highlighted "way before" just for the sake of making sure you know that I said it. And so, during my experience in The Way, there was far far less " in the open" legalistic control within the areas where I was involved. It's only an observation. Fortunately for me and the many good people who got involved, we were given much free rein which meant that we innocents who just wanted to help people were able to do so, at least to some degree. And yes, "LCM the the sledge hammer", a fine description of the Okie King...
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rhino
True ... what a lughead ...
But also craig was a nobody to most ... vp was "the man" and he had acquired a certain blind respect. But all I remember about lcm teachings was that he was loud ...
I don't know that Craig saw the old freedom as weakness, but he was in charge of a sinking ship after POP, and there really was no solution except to disband or fully acknowledge all evils and resign. So rather than abandon ship, he required devotees that would work harder to bail him out. Many seemed so addicted that they just couldn't leave and "let the word die".
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Oakspear
I also think that as time went by the number of leaders who agreed with the top down control agenda increased, making it much easier to control the masses. By the mid to late 90's I believe fewer and fewer people went into the Corps for godly reasons and more and more to push the "purify the household" agenda of King Okie
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