let the discussion begin!.........and let's all "play nice" and try hard to avoid ad hominem attacks..........such attacks are, after all, classic logical fallacies, and, as such, do not encourage fruitful, civil discussion, but rather, choke and destroy civil discussion, while taking all the fun out of it too!!!..................................peace.
Just for fun, why don't we NOT discuss it and FORGET you ever brought up the subject...AGAIN!!
it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite their interpretation of what is "scriptural truth", any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them) by their blatantly "unscriptural" conduct!
The bible itself disqualifies them as legitimate Christian leaders...anything they had to say were empty words, never meant to be nourishment for a Chrsitian believer. They disqualified themselves by their behavior.
You cannot seperate "what they said" from "how they lived" without compromising legitimacy. I believe that many of their doctrines were "doctrines of devils"...designed to subjugate and enslave the follower of such doctrines. To say that some of what Vic taught may have been "accurate" is akin to saying that the devil accurately quoted scripture when he tempted Jesus...or from a more pragmatic and common sense approach...why would anyone believe a word this man said after considering his behavior?
Wierwille poisoned the well with his perverted thoughts and behavior...his "teachings" have absolutely no credibility and should be discarded as trash.
From a legal point of view, correct me if I'm wrong, the defendant cannot settle out of court unless the complainant agrees to the terms. The one bringing the law suit can persue the case to the full extent of the law regardless of how many 'offers' of settlement they may receive from the defendant. So in answer to your question Krys the Allen's would have had to press the issue. The Judge obviously thought that they had a case and so did the defendants if they were so quick to settle. But for whatever reason or reasons the Allen's were content with the settlement.
From a legal point of view, correct me if I'm wrong, the defendant cannot settle out of court unless the complainant agrees to the terms. The one bringing the law suit can persue the case to the full extent of the law regardless of how many 'offers' of settlement they may receive from the defendant. So in answer to your question Krys the Allen's would have had to press the issue. The Judge obviously thought that they had a case and so did the defendants if they were so quick to settle. But for whatever reason or reasons the Allen's were content with the settlement.
In general legal (conceptual) terms, you are correct.
Why didn't any of these "perps" go to jail?
What would have to happen in order to put them in jail?
1) Defendants who lose (or settle) civil lawsuits are not subject to jail. They are subject to sanctions (monetary damages, for example) and to demands for changes in conduct/procedures.
2) Criminal charges would have had to have been filed, tried and the defendants found guilty. None of those conditions took place.
..."However, even though the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution prohibit Civil Courts from unwarranted intrusion into religious doctrine, policy, or purely ecclesiastical or spiritual disputes of a church or a religious organization, there is no constitutional protection for actions which, even when clothed in a religious mantle, violate basic premises of our society. Swann v. Pa , 527 S.W. 2d 99 (Tenn. 1975). The right to believe is absolute. The right to act is subject to reasonable regulation designed to protect a compelling state interest. Id. The United States Supreme Court has specifically held that while laws cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices. Reynolds v. .1 IS, 98 U. S. 145 (1878). The Court finds that an important distinction exists between belief and conduct.The beliefs espoused by The Way, and its members, are not subject to review by this Court. The conduct of The Way, and its members, is subject to reasonable regulationdesignedto protect a compelling state interest. The First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution cannot be used to protect The Way, or its members, against legislation for the punishment of acts inimical to the peace, good order and morals of society. Davis v, Beasor 133 U.S. 333, 342 (1980)....
...i was deposed by twi's lawyers during the discovery phase of this case, and was scheduled to appear as a witness for the plaintiffs............i am acutely aware of why twi abruptly decided to settle this case out of court..............and so too are those defendants still alive, despite the years of unabashed "SPIN" they and twi, and their "faithful" apologists have unrelentingly vomited upon their "household" of followers, and the very few nominal and/or "cosmetic" so-called "changes" to their public personae!
it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite their interpretation of what is "scriptural truth", any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them) by their blatantly "unscriptural" conduct!...
Your post made me think of a psychological term: compartmentalization – the isolation of one’s thoughts, feelings, and beliefs from each other. The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology by Arthur Reber & Emily Reber, cite one example of a deeply devout Roman Catholic biologist whose research is on birth control. The article goes on to mention Karen Horney [a pioneering theorist in personality, psychoanalysis and feminine psychology] used the term to describe a sense of disconnectedness that comes from the excessive practice of isolating thoughts - and that it is a defense mechanism to shield one from the anxiety and tension produced by any inconsistencies.
I think compartmentalization is one of the key dynamics in the TWI-mindset. It turns a blind eye to hypocrisy, insulates one from reason, and can even make the conscience vanish…Fascinating to think about the weird frame of mind I had while in TWI – so indoctrinated by their nonsense [which is typically a grand compartmentalization of beliefs] I used to view upper leadership as beyond reproach – unable to see the incongruity between beliefs & conduct.
I like your point Groucho about likening whatever TWI taught, to the devil's quoting of scripture. Sure, anyone can quote scripture, that's why we need to look at the fruit, or result. TWI, with its scripture wrecked havoc with too many peoples' lives.
I have thought for a long time, their actions negated anything they spoke or taught.
I think we may have even taken "compartmentalization" to a new and higher level (for us, at least) when we were in The Way.
Yes, we knew some of our thoughts seemed bizarre to the people in "The World" (use the "law" of believing as a prime example.) but, at the same time, we openly reinforced them with each other. So, we compartmentalized on an individual level and at the group level gave each other the nod of approval to do so. Then, of course, since we became experts, of sorts, at doing it, we naturally carried it into the way we thought about the organization. Call it group think, call it mind control, call it your Mama if it makes you happy. There was some BAAAAD chicken in that Wayburger sandwich.
"it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite their interpretation of what is "scriptural truth", any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them) by their blatantly "unscriptural" conduct!" DWBH
Yes, God gave His HOLY-JUST-PARADOXICAL-PEACEFUL-KIND, and WORTHY-TRUTH- meant for the meek and humble to a bunch of ABUSIVE-PLAGARIZING-ADULTEROUS-DEVIL SPIRIT OBSESSED-HUCKSTERS.
The rest of Christendom which (missed the snow on the gas pumps) was of course kept in the dark. Those idiots! Men and women martyred were "misguided" as they were put to death for their faith. They should have subscribed to the Sunday Night Service.
Hmmm 2 things God HATES--Powerful language from a HOLY God.
1. To be a peddler of HIS word.2Cor2:17
2. To cause one of His little ones to stumble Mt 8:16--I think in IMHO rape and sexual abuse may cause one to stumble-just a guess.
Peddle-Dishonest men seeking personal profit and prestige at the expense of Gospel truth and peoples souls. John MacArthur
This goes for those ridiculous "Off Shoots" Who still hold the "Truth" VP et al taught them.
Deep breath and here we go----Keep denying who Jesus said He was and is and look what it gets us. However, we were always in good company. The Moonies, the Mormons, the Jehova Witnesses, and the little known Christadelphians.
All because VP couldn't hold up under accountability to a church.
Yeah--their behavoir nullifies every last word they speak. IMHO
I'm not sure what direction the thread is intended to go ... exactly. I see this bold part included by DWBH
Similarly, a religious organization can be held liable for failing to protect its members from the sexual assaults of its employees.
Byrd v Faber, 57 Ohio St.3d 56 (1991).
The Court finds that Craig Martindale's sexual encounters with Mrs. Allen must be considered as conduct, rather than beliefs.
The issue is whether or not the sexual relationship was consensual.
The state has a compelling interest in preserving the peace, and that includes the prevention of sexual assaults.
For the "more spiritual" ... it does make some sense that TWI used scripture for its own ends, so it is like the Devil using scripture ... always with some subtle greater context twist.
A close examination would probably find the perverseness prevalent in practice had seeped into belief. VP seemed to be known to seek the "correct" doctrine/transcripts that would confirm what he believed the Bible must really mean to say, and he had veto power over the research teams, as Schoenheit found out.
VP's "new light" for his time was perhaps too focused on him as MOG, and founded in providing for his every want. Was there any snow on the gas pumps? Did he really think he saw it ... or was it pure fabrication?
Craig seems to have just followed the "It Is Rewritten" belief/doctrine of vp that he open up sexually (and therefore allow that it was OK practice for VP) ... and he took that to heart, apparently incapable of separating any truth from error on his own.
But the court does seem to separate belief from conduct. While Rosie is mentioned, she apparently paid no price. Craig is the only one that paid personally for his acts, and TWI as an organization seems to have given up some funds .... it is presumed.
Of course in choosing to stay with a group/cult/church ... conduct is perhaps most important. How many times the cocks crowed is less important than a practice of allowing assault or intimidation against parishioner or employee. What kind of "belief" allows such misdeeds to occur repeatedly in conduct?
The idea that God would choose a cult with a long term practice of allowing abuses, to be "the ones" to keep His Word "alive" ... seems a delusional and dangerous belief. TWI elite had the habit of stomping on other members' fruits, to squeeze out wine for themselves. Old wineskins may fit in that analogy somewhere ...
Too many have submitted and are incapable of escape ... :(
it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite their interpretation of what is "scriptural truth", any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them) by their blatantly "unscriptural" conduct!
DWBH, I disagree, and have found no reason to believe that unscriptural conduct negates scriptural truth.
I think the most disgusting thing is that there are those who desire to perpeptuate the same kind of authoritarian, abusive system that in a large way allowed this fiasco of a "ministry" to function like organized crime to begin with..
you'd think they had their fill with vic, the dancing boy, and rosie the ribeter..
I would agree that conduct invalidates whatever "truth" they think they have. If it is so good, why doesn't it actually work? I'd rather see the merits of redemption instead of just hearing about it any day.
Another related topic that I'd like to bring up is our supposed ability, as PFAL grads, to "work the Word" ourselves, supposedly enabling us to verify the accuracy of what we were taught.
Did we really think that some basic facility with a Young's concordance made us biblical researchers? Did most of us ever verify from non-TWI sources whether Wierwille's definitions were based on anything beyond wishful thinking? How can you separate the fish from the bones when you accept a definition of "fish" which most would recognize as the one for "bones"?
So much of what's in PFAL we had to take Wierwille's word for. Definitions of words, "orientalisms", application of figures of speech, literals according to usage, msyterious old documents, etc. Start throwing all of that out as untrustworthy and the foundation starts to look pretty weak. Yet we took the word of someone who was so biblically savvy that he used the bible to justify sexual assaults and adultery.
DWBH, I disagree, and have found no reason to believe that unscriptural conduct negates scriptural truth.
That's not exactly what he said:
any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them)
How about Eli and his sons? Eli did not ensure that his sons lived the Word, so Eli, his sons, and the entire nation of Israel suffered the consequences.
"All because VP couldn't hold up under accountability to a church."
Sums up VP and his doctrines nicely. Of course he had to rail against the churches and keep us away from them for his doctrine to cast its spell on us.
For those of us who were around vpw, I think we can verify that the following info written by Dr. Sam Vaknin is a pretty good description of the way vpw (and some other twi leaders) acted much of the time. The court's findings referenced above make a distinction between belief and actions. Actions that betray the trust people put in their religious leaders are WRONG. Actions like the ones described below, IMO, are in this catagory.
Regardless of what vpw or others like him have taught about the Bible, I think it's safe to say it's more than wise to avoid the company of a person who behaves in ways described below, and at the very least we should regard as suspect anything they might teach. Keep in mind that vpw's teachings and the teachings of twi at present are founded on a way of interpreting the Bible that is fabricated by Christian fundamentalists and are not the ONLY or right way to view the books of the Bible... and some of vpw's teachings IMO are downright manipulation of the scriptures, such as 4 crucified, Eli Eli, spiritual adultery, etc. etc. There are many references to these sorts of teachings here at gsc, like the article called Actual errors in PFAL, etc
Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com ) is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Central Europe Review, PopMatters, E-BookWeb, and Bellaonline, and as a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent. He is the the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.
The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock: his spouse, his offspring, other family members, friends and colleagues. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals. The less accomplished he is in reality – the more stringent his mastery and the more pervasive the brainwashing.
The – often involuntary – members of the narcissist’s mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, “enemies”, mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted.
The narcissist’s control is based on ambiguity, unpredictability, fuzziness, and ambient abuse. His ever-shifting whims exclusively define right versus wrong, desirable and unwanted, what is to be pursued and what to be avoided. He alone determines the rights and obligations of his disciples and alters them at will.
The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviors. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals.
The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification. He seeks to control both situations and people compulsively.
He strongly disapproves of others’ personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one’s family require his permission. Gradually, he isolates his nearest and dearest until they are fully dependent on him emotionally, sexually, financially, and socially.
He acts in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes often. He alternates between emphasizing the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the talents, traits and skills (idealizes) of the members of his cult. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations – which legitimizes his subsequent abusive conduct.
The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skillful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.
His thinking is dogmatic, rigid, and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn’t brook criticism and disagreement. He demands – and often gets – complete trust and the relegation to his capable hands of all decision-making.
He forced the participants in his cult to be hostile to critics, the authorities, institutions, his personal enemies, or the media – if they try to uncover his actions and reveal the truth. He closely monitors and censors information from the outside, exposing his captive audience only to selective data and analyses.
The narcissist’s cult is “missionary” and “imperialistic”. He is always on the lookout for new recruits – his spouse’s friends, his daughter’s girlfriends, his neighbors, and new colleagues at work. He immediately attempts to “convert” them to his “creed” – to convince them how wonderful and admirable he is. In other words, he tries to render them Sources of Narcissistic Supply.
Often, his behavior on these “recruiting missions” is different to his conduct within the “cult”. In the first phases on wooing new admirers and proselytizing to potential “conscripts” – the narcissist is attentive, compassionate, empathic, flexible, self-effacing, and helpful. At home, among the “veterans” he is tyrannical, demanding, willful, opinionated, aggressive and exploitive.
As the leader of his congregation, the narcissist feels entitled to special amenities and benefits not accorded the “rank and file”. He expects to be waited on hand and foot, to make free use of everyone’s money and dispose of their assets liberally, and to be cynically exempt from the rules that he himself established (if such violation is pleasurable or gainful).
In extreme cases, the narcissist feels above the law – any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities.
Hence the narcissist’s panicky and sometimes violent reactions to “dropouts” from his cult. There’s a lot going on that the narcissist wants kept under wraps. Moreover, the narcissist stabilizes his fluctuating sense of self-worth by deriving Narcissistic Supply from his victims. Abandonment threatens the narcissist’s precariously balanced personality.
Add to that the narcissist’s paranoid and schizoid tendencies, his lack of introspective self-awareness, and his stunted sense of humor (lack of self-deprecation) and the risks to the grudging members of his cult are clear.
The narcissist sees enemies and conspiracies everywhere. He often casts himself as the heroic victim (martyr) of dark and stupendous forces. In every deviation from his tenets he espies malevolent and ominous subversion. He, therefore, is bent on disempowering his devotees. By any and all means.
I don't know how that applies here. Is there a scripture that says the sins of Eli and his sons negated any truths that may have come out of their mouths?
Grumpy says that because you are ALL TWI Cult Victims (TCV), you have lost Biblical Perspective and Market Direction.(BPMD) And he says THE Devil has defeated you because you no longer go Witnessing as a Family!
For ALL have Fallen Short...
So he or she who is Without Sin grab some more sticks and stones (if you can find any) and keep blaming your BAD youthful decisions of days gone by on, TWI, God, Jesus, VP, GEAR, Craig, and Everyone Else BUT not...Y.O.U.!! boohoooo
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geisha779
"it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite th
geisha779
Excathedra, Your dignity inspires-so right back at ya sister! Sunesis, Ain't it the truth. Step away from the light, I mean the church. WOW! Been years since I have played "Bible Gotcha" Seems to
geisha779
Sounds reasonable, except when you consider the "Word" or "Commandments of God" taught by VP. Then the whole premise is flawed. As many times as we heard--It's the word-the word and nothing but the wo
JeffSjo
Thank you very much for posting this DWBH,
I think that I've seen it before, and it is nice to know that folks like you that have seen these things up close and personally are sharing.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU
For me, other biblical statements put it into a different perspective than I used to consider TWI.
For the, the most direct quote concerning similar yet far less criminal behavior is, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."
P.S.
I hope that someday I'll understand how to have fun with this the same way that you do. sigh.....
I can be emotional at times, and I think it can be counter productive at times. But it's not always counter productive either.
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Bumpy
Just for fun, why don't we NOT discuss it and FORGET you ever brought up the subject...AGAIN!!
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krys
Why didn't any of these "perps" go to jail?
What would have to happen in order to put them in jail?
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GrouchoMarxJr
The bible itself disqualifies them as legitimate Christian leaders...anything they had to say were empty words, never meant to be nourishment for a Chrsitian believer. They disqualified themselves by their behavior.
You cannot seperate "what they said" from "how they lived" without compromising legitimacy. I believe that many of their doctrines were "doctrines of devils"...designed to subjugate and enslave the follower of such doctrines. To say that some of what Vic taught may have been "accurate" is akin to saying that the devil accurately quoted scripture when he tempted Jesus...or from a more pragmatic and common sense approach...why would anyone believe a word this man said after considering his behavior?
Wierwille poisoned the well with his perverted thoughts and behavior...his "teachings" have absolutely no credibility and should be discarded as trash.
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dmiller
Sure Bumpy --- Here's my comment to your comment as pertains this thread. ;)
Hey There Bumpy. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~??!!! (And may I also add) --- >>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!! ((wth?!!)
There -- I feel better now!!
I guess *non discussion* is truely good for the soul, eh?? <_<
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Eyesopen
From a legal point of view, correct me if I'm wrong, the defendant cannot settle out of court unless the complainant agrees to the terms. The one bringing the law suit can persue the case to the full extent of the law regardless of how many 'offers' of settlement they may receive from the defendant. So in answer to your question Krys the Allen's would have had to press the issue. The Judge obviously thought that they had a case and so did the defendants if they were so quick to settle. But for whatever reason or reasons the Allen's were content with the settlement.
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Rocky
In general legal (conceptual) terms, you are correct.
1) Defendants who lose (or settle) civil lawsuits are not subject to jail. They are subject to sanctions (monetary damages, for example) and to demands for changes in conduct/procedures.
2) Criminal charges would have had to have been filed, tried and the defendants found guilty. None of those conditions took place.
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T-Bone
Your post made me think of a psychological term: compartmentalization – the isolation of one’s thoughts, feelings, and beliefs from each other. The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology by Arthur Reber & Emily Reber, cite one example of a deeply devout Roman Catholic biologist whose research is on birth control. The article goes on to mention Karen Horney [a pioneering theorist in personality, psychoanalysis and feminine psychology] used the term to describe a sense of disconnectedness that comes from the excessive practice of isolating thoughts - and that it is a defense mechanism to shield one from the anxiety and tension produced by any inconsistencies.
I think compartmentalization is one of the key dynamics in the TWI-mindset. It turns a blind eye to hypocrisy, insulates one from reason, and can even make the conscience vanish…Fascinating to think about the weird frame of mind I had while in TWI – so indoctrinated by their nonsense [which is typically a grand compartmentalization of beliefs] I used to view upper leadership as beyond reproach – unable to see the incongruity between beliefs & conduct.
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Sunesis
I like your point Groucho about likening whatever TWI taught, to the devil's quoting of scripture. Sure, anyone can quote scripture, that's why we need to look at the fruit, or result. TWI, with its scripture wrecked havoc with too many peoples' lives.
I have thought for a long time, their actions negated anything they spoke or taught.
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waysider
Hi, T-Bone
I think we may have even taken "compartmentalization" to a new and higher level (for us, at least) when we were in The Way.
Yes, we knew some of our thoughts seemed bizarre to the people in "The World" (use the "law" of believing as a prime example.) but, at the same time, we openly reinforced them with each other. So, we compartmentalized on an individual level and at the group level gave each other the nod of approval to do so. Then, of course, since we became experts, of sorts, at doing it, we naturally carried it into the way we thought about the organization. Call it group think, call it mind control, call it your Mama if it makes you happy. There was some BAAAAD chicken in that Wayburger sandwich.
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geisha779
"it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite their interpretation of what is "scriptural truth", any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them) by their blatantly "unscriptural" conduct!" DWBH
Yes, God gave His HOLY-JUST-PARADOXICAL-PEACEFUL-KIND, and WORTHY-TRUTH- meant for the meek and humble to a bunch of ABUSIVE-PLAGARIZING-ADULTEROUS-DEVIL SPIRIT OBSESSED-HUCKSTERS.
The rest of Christendom which (missed the snow on the gas pumps) was of course kept in the dark. Those idiots! Men and women martyred were "misguided" as they were put to death for their faith. They should have subscribed to the Sunday Night Service.
Hmmm 2 things God HATES--Powerful language from a HOLY God.
1. To be a peddler of HIS word.2Cor2:17
2. To cause one of His little ones to stumble Mt 8:16--I think in IMHO rape and sexual abuse may cause one to stumble-just a guess.
Peddle-Dishonest men seeking personal profit and prestige at the expense of Gospel truth and peoples souls. John MacArthur
This goes for those ridiculous "Off Shoots" Who still hold the "Truth" VP et al taught them.
Deep breath and here we go----Keep denying who Jesus said He was and is and look what it gets us. However, we were always in good company. The Moonies, the Mormons, the Jehova Witnesses, and the little known Christadelphians.
All because VP couldn't hold up under accountability to a church.
Yeah--their behavoir nullifies every last word they speak. IMHO
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rhino
I'm not sure what direction the thread is intended to go ... exactly. I see this bold part included by DWBH
For the "more spiritual" ... it does make some sense that TWI used scripture for its own ends, so it is like the Devil using scripture ... always with some subtle greater context twist.
A close examination would probably find the perverseness prevalent in practice had seeped into belief. VP seemed to be known to seek the "correct" doctrine/transcripts that would confirm what he believed the Bible must really mean to say, and he had veto power over the research teams, as Schoenheit found out.
VP's "new light" for his time was perhaps too focused on him as MOG, and founded in providing for his every want. Was there any snow on the gas pumps? Did he really think he saw it ... or was it pure fabrication?
Craig seems to have just followed the "It Is Rewritten" belief/doctrine of vp that he open up sexually (and therefore allow that it was OK practice for VP) ... and he took that to heart, apparently incapable of separating any truth from error on his own.
But the court does seem to separate belief from conduct. While Rosie is mentioned, she apparently paid no price. Craig is the only one that paid personally for his acts, and TWI as an organization seems to have given up some funds .... it is presumed.
Of course in choosing to stay with a group/cult/church ... conduct is perhaps most important. How many times the cocks crowed is less important than a practice of allowing assault or intimidation against parishioner or employee. What kind of "belief" allows such misdeeds to occur repeatedly in conduct?
The idea that God would choose a cult with a long term practice of allowing abuses, to be "the ones" to keep His Word "alive" ... seems a delusional and dangerous belief. TWI elite had the habit of stomping on other members' fruits, to squeeze out wine for themselves. Old wineskins may fit in that analogy somewhere ...
Too many have submitted and are incapable of escape ... :(
maybe some GSC light can still help ... :)
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Bumpy
Sometimes a good quiet cup of tea can be better for the soul, don't you think? :)
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oldiesman
DWBH, I disagree, and have found no reason to believe that unscriptural conduct negates scriptural truth.
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Ham
I think the most disgusting thing is that there are those who desire to perpeptuate the same kind of authoritarian, abusive system that in a large way allowed this fiasco of a "ministry" to function like organized crime to begin with..
you'd think they had their fill with vic, the dancing boy, and rosie the ribeter..
I would agree that conduct invalidates whatever "truth" they think they have. If it is so good, why doesn't it actually work? I'd rather see the merits of redemption instead of just hearing about it any day.
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Oakspear
Another related topic that I'd like to bring up is our supposed ability, as PFAL grads, to "work the Word" ourselves, supposedly enabling us to verify the accuracy of what we were taught.
Did we really think that some basic facility with a Young's concordance made us biblical researchers? Did most of us ever verify from non-TWI sources whether Wierwille's definitions were based on anything beyond wishful thinking? How can you separate the fish from the bones when you accept a definition of "fish" which most would recognize as the one for "bones"?
So much of what's in PFAL we had to take Wierwille's word for. Definitions of words, "orientalisms", application of figures of speech, literals according to usage, msyterious old documents, etc. Start throwing all of that out as untrustworthy and the foundation starts to look pretty weak. Yet we took the word of someone who was so biblically savvy that he used the bible to justify sexual assaults and adultery.
That's not exactly what he said:
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Mike
Oldiesman,
I respectfully disagree with you.
I find DWBH's conduct to be unscriptural, and therefore negating any truth he may otherwise try to issue.
Q.E.D.
;)
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oldiesman
Hi Mike.
Says who? Chapter and verse please (and it should be quoted in the scriptures, not someone's interpretation of what someone MAY THINK something says.)
I think this is a false doctrine being promoted. Beware of false doctrines folks.
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rascal
[quote name='Mike' date='Jun 27 2008, 10:29 AM' post='419076'
I find DWBH's conduct to be unscriptural, and therefore negating any truth he may otherwise try to issue.
Q.E.D.
;)
How so? On what do you base this statement.
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Radar OReilly
Oldiesman,
How about Eli and his sons? Eli did not ensure that his sons lived the Word, so Eli, his sons, and the entire nation of Israel suffered the consequences.
radar
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Sunesis
I love this:
"All because VP couldn't hold up under accountability to a church."
Sums up VP and his doctrines nicely. Of course he had to rail against the churches and keep us away from them for his doctrine to cast its spell on us.
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penworks
For those of us who were around vpw, I think we can verify that the following info written by Dr. Sam Vaknin is a pretty good description of the way vpw (and some other twi leaders) acted much of the time. The court's findings referenced above make a distinction between belief and actions. Actions that betray the trust people put in their religious leaders are WRONG. Actions like the ones described below, IMO, are in this catagory.
Regardless of what vpw or others like him have taught about the Bible, I think it's safe to say it's more than wise to avoid the company of a person who behaves in ways described below, and at the very least we should regard as suspect anything they might teach. Keep in mind that vpw's teachings and the teachings of twi at present are founded on a way of interpreting the Bible that is fabricated by Christian fundamentalists and are not the ONLY or right way to view the books of the Bible... and some of vpw's teachings IMO are downright manipulation of the scriptures, such as 4 crucified, Eli Eli, spiritual adultery, etc. etc. There are many references to these sorts of teachings here at gsc, like the article called Actual errors in PFAL, etc
Info source: http://www.meadowhaven.org/psychissues/cultofnarcissist.html
The Cult of the Narcissist
By: Dr. Sam Vaknin
Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com ) is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Central Europe Review, PopMatters, E-BookWeb, and Bellaonline, and as a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent. He is the the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.
The narcissist is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his flock: his spouse, his offspring, other family members, friends and colleagues. He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his followers. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline, adherence to his teachings, and common goals. The less accomplished he is in reality – the more stringent his mastery and the more pervasive the brainwashing.
The – often involuntary – members of the narcissist’s mini-cult inhabit a twilight zone of his own construction. He imposes on them a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, “enemies”, mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted.
The narcissist’s control is based on ambiguity, unpredictability, fuzziness, and ambient abuse. His ever-shifting whims exclusively define right versus wrong, desirable and unwanted, what is to be pursued and what to be avoided. He alone determines the rights and obligations of his disciples and alters them at will.
The narcissist is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviors. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals.
The narcissist does not respect the boundaries and privacy of his reluctant adherents. He ignores their wishes and treats them as objects or instruments of gratification. He seeks to control both situations and people compulsively.
He strongly disapproves of others’ personal autonomy and independence. Even innocuous activities, such as meeting a friend or visiting one’s family require his permission. Gradually, he isolates his nearest and dearest until they are fully dependent on him emotionally, sexually, financially, and socially.
He acts in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes often. He alternates between emphasizing the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the talents, traits and skills (idealizes) of the members of his cult. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations – which legitimizes his subsequent abusive conduct.
The narcissist claims to be infallible, superior, talented, skillful, omnipotent, and omniscient. He often lies and confabulates to support these unfounded claims. Within his cult, he expects awe, admiration, adulation, and constant attention commensurate with his outlandish stories and assertions. He reinterprets reality to fit his fantasies.
His thinking is dogmatic, rigid, and doctrinaire. He does not countenance free thought, pluralism, or free speech and doesn’t brook criticism and disagreement. He demands – and often gets – complete trust and the relegation to his capable hands of all decision-making.
He forced the participants in his cult to be hostile to critics, the authorities, institutions, his personal enemies, or the media – if they try to uncover his actions and reveal the truth. He closely monitors and censors information from the outside, exposing his captive audience only to selective data and analyses.
The narcissist’s cult is “missionary” and “imperialistic”. He is always on the lookout for new recruits – his spouse’s friends, his daughter’s girlfriends, his neighbors, and new colleagues at work. He immediately attempts to “convert” them to his “creed” – to convince them how wonderful and admirable he is. In other words, he tries to render them Sources of Narcissistic Supply.
Often, his behavior on these “recruiting missions” is different to his conduct within the “cult”. In the first phases on wooing new admirers and proselytizing to potential “conscripts” – the narcissist is attentive, compassionate, empathic, flexible, self-effacing, and helpful. At home, among the “veterans” he is tyrannical, demanding, willful, opinionated, aggressive and exploitive.
As the leader of his congregation, the narcissist feels entitled to special amenities and benefits not accorded the “rank and file”. He expects to be waited on hand and foot, to make free use of everyone’s money and dispose of their assets liberally, and to be cynically exempt from the rules that he himself established (if such violation is pleasurable or gainful).
In extreme cases, the narcissist feels above the law – any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities.
Hence the narcissist’s panicky and sometimes violent reactions to “dropouts” from his cult. There’s a lot going on that the narcissist wants kept under wraps. Moreover, the narcissist stabilizes his fluctuating sense of self-worth by deriving Narcissistic Supply from his victims. Abandonment threatens the narcissist’s precariously balanced personality.
Add to that the narcissist’s paranoid and schizoid tendencies, his lack of introspective self-awareness, and his stunted sense of humor (lack of self-deprecation) and the risks to the grudging members of his cult are clear.
The narcissist sees enemies and conspiracies everywhere. He often casts himself as the heroic victim (martyr) of dark and stupendous forces. In every deviation from his tenets he espies malevolent and ominous subversion. He, therefore, is bent on disempowering his devotees. By any and all means.
The narcissist is dangerous.
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oldiesman
Hi Radar,
I don't know how that applies here. Is there a scripture that says the sins of Eli and his sons negated any truths that may have come out of their mouths?
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Bumpy
Grumpy says that because you are ALL TWI Cult Victims (TCV), you have lost Biblical Perspective and Market Direction.(BPMD) And he says THE Devil has defeated you because you no longer go Witnessing as a Family!
For ALL have Fallen Short...
So he or she who is Without Sin grab some more sticks and stones (if you can find any) and keep blaming your BAD youthful decisions of days gone by on, TWI, God, Jesus, VP, GEAR, Craig, and Everyone Else BUT not...Y.O.U.!! boohoooo
It's only Teenage Wasteland... Cult Addiction!
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