Does anyone have any idea what devil spirits were operating in The Way?
They were operating behind the curtains in OZ with the doc, got bored in Kansas and moved to Wall St. then took over Goldman and all the other banks...and today they are having a barmitzvah party!
Dunno about specific spirits. I absolutely believe that these guys were what is referred to in the scriptures as *false prophets* *ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour*. Their actions place them in this catagory.
I don`t believe that they were born again or of the spirit if you accept galatians 5 definition of who is of the spirit and who is of the flesh.
What ever the case, they used the scriptures and God`s name to grant themselves the authority and power to steal that which was not theirs.
According to galatians 5 anybody who does what these guys did, will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Whether it takes a particular devil spirit to behave as these men did, or a lack of Holy spirit abiding in a person, or just plain orneriness beyond the normal persons capacity to understand, the damage wrought is the same.
I know the facts about what happened with LCM's demise, but I would like to hear a teaching or read an explanation of what happened spiritually.
I still believe in angels and fallen angels and that these demons cause problems in the lives of ministries and believers today.
Does anyone have any idea what devil spirits were operating in The Way?
(I know this will not be a popular topic for many.) :)
Please don't take offense, but this sort of reminds me of the smokescreens generated around the time I left in 86. I remember Chris G33r telling folks not to just look at the facts but to look at the truth behind the facts. And the best diversionary tactic that certain upper echelon bozos deployed was making like all the controversy & issues were really being stirred up by devil spirits.
IMHO, the Bible lays a lot more responsibility on the individual than the typical TWI-follower cares to acknowledge. I think this is evident in the way Jesus confronted sin.
Luke 17:1-3 NASB
1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."
How does the above passage fit with the way TWI handles sin? Did Jesus say "Don't blame the guy who caused another to stumble – blame a devil spirit instead" ?
I'm a Christian – and believe there is an intense spiritual battle going on – not only around us – but within as well! We can be our own worst enemies sometimes – through sin – as we wrestle with our own fallen nature/sinful tendencies. It seems some folks just gave up on the battle within – letting sin dominate their lives. Why would devil spirits have to waste their energy on someone who is already hellbent on evil.
IMHO, the cold hard fact of many a "demise" in TWI was due to a weak stance on sin! Everyone can thank the New Knoxville Gnostic [vp] for that. And THAT is THE reason for the demise of the whole Mickey Mouse organization anyway – it was a sham – built on the personality of vp – with an agenda that served his sinful passions. The mantle vp passed onto LCM was infused with a taste for adultery. Listen to the through the fog interview if you haven't already.
"What devil spirits were operating in The Way?" – more like, what con artists were operating in the way! I think vp's idea of discerning of spirits was being able to find the Drambuie in a liquor store he wasn't familiar with.
Proverbs 6 has a stern warning against adultery. I'm inclined to think that's what really happened spiritually. A person brings destruction on himself when he commits adultery.
Proverbs 6:27-29 NASB
27 Can a man take fire in his bosom
And his clothes not be burned?
28 Or can a man walk on hot coals
And his feet not be scorched?
29 So is the one who goes in to his neighbor's wife;
Martindale inherited an organization, as has been said before, based on a man's personality. Wierwille could get away with a lot simply because he was a good enough con man to fool people. He kept enough of a veneer of "biblical research, teaching and fellowship" that people thought they were involved in a godly organization.
Really, what did Martindale do that was, at the heart, any different than what Wierwille did? The adultery wasn't new, and the research wasn't any worse, so what was different? Martindale had Wierwille's ability to rip the heart out of a person but without Wierwille's skill at covering his tracks and making it look like it was "according to the Word".
In my opinion, Martindale believed the hype about himself as God's spokesman, while Wierwille never really did. Wierwille used the perception that he was the MOG, Martindale's belief in the concept took away any restraint that he may have had.
I also like how organized your post was. (Librarian speaking here)
And the pretty colors with red and blue.
I agree that the adultery issue was major and I didn't even know it was going on although I should have but choose to think well of folks.
The issue you brought up about how sin was not emphasized is good. Many committed sin readily because forgiveness was so available that the attitude was "why not?"
I think the spirit of PRIDE was alive and well in the leadership because they expected honor but were not willing to subject themselves to the example of Christ.
I know the facts about what happened with LCM's demise, but I would like to hear a teaching or read an explanation of what happened spiritually.
I still believe in angels and fallen angels and that these demons cause problems in the lives of ministries and believers today.
Does anyone have any idea what devil spirits were operating in The Way?
(I know this will not be a popular topic for many.) :)
Hello, Imagine
I'll cut straight to the chase and state that I believe that what was taught in The Way about the Devil and devil spirits was a bunch of nonsense.
Think about it logically in light of what was taught in the Advanced Class. Wierwille was an alcoholic. (devil spirit) He was a chronic sexual predator. (devil spirit) He was obsessed with material possessions, such as a fleet of classic cars and motorcycles as well as special guns and dogs (devil spirit) He twisted The Word to satisfy his own personal agenda. (devil spirit) He was addicted to nicotine and chain smoked like there was no tomorrow. (devil spirit) His cause of death was cancer. (devil spirit) he was so fearful someone might assassinate him, he surrounded himself with armed guards (devil spirit) and so on. Did you know he "borrowed" the definitions he used in the Advanced Class word-for-word? By his own "teachings", the man was literally riddled with devil spirits. How come nobody got revelation (discerning of spirits) about it? Now, I'm not talking about people who spent time with him up close and personal and had opportunity to see(5 senses) how he lived, I'm talking about people who met with him at The Rock Of Ages and Limb Meetings and that sort of thing. This doesn't speak highly of the value of the nine "manifestations".
The whole thing was a crock of grasshopper spit. (IMHO)
There were no "devil spirits" at work, just a self absorbed flim-flam man who didn't care who he had to hurt in order to get whatever he wanted.
There were no "devil spirits" at work, just a self absorbed flim-flam man who didn't care who he had to hurt in order to get whatever he wanted.
And there you have it folks, the whole of WayWorld, in one concise, bite-sized piece! (amazing how we can go on blathering about it for YEARS after though, huh?)
It IS kinda sad in retrospect, though. All the time, effort and means wasted for such a pathetic, petty, P.O.S., "knock-off" ministry. Geeze, at least we coulda picked a major player in the Cult game, but NOOOO...
And there you have it folks, the whole of WayWorld, in one concise, bite-sized piece! (amazing how we can go on blathering about it for YEARS after though, huh?)
FINALLY, someone has removed the curtains and the whole melodrama has now been exposed! Congratulations!!
Between years in Kansas, on da field and here in cyberland, you might think it was...about TIME?
...but wait, maybe there is still a little more doubt? Someone start another thread?!
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Bumpy
They were operating behind the curtains in OZ with the doc, got bored in Kansas and moved to Wall St. then took over Goldman and all the other banks...and today they are having a barmitzvah party!
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cheranne
Spiritual intuition,is something special and everyone has that IF they listen.
However vpw and the whole lot of them were just greedy and worked the whole twi as a store(One size fits all)
I don't think truely they could discern themselves out of a paper bag!! Just two faced liars from the pit.
We all fell into the traps and snares of Big Buisness.
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brideofjc
Is there enough bandwidth?????? I dunno.....!
#! - ANTI-CHRIST!
All others are a sub-topic of this one! This is because I do not believe there is actually enough bandwidth to support your question.
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rascal
Dunno about specific spirits. I absolutely believe that these guys were what is referred to in the scriptures as *false prophets* *ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour*. Their actions place them in this catagory.
I don`t believe that they were born again or of the spirit if you accept galatians 5 definition of who is of the spirit and who is of the flesh.
What ever the case, they used the scriptures and God`s name to grant themselves the authority and power to steal that which was not theirs.
According to galatians 5 anybody who does what these guys did, will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Whether it takes a particular devil spirit to behave as these men did, or a lack of Holy spirit abiding in a person, or just plain orneriness beyond the normal persons capacity to understand, the damage wrought is the same.
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T-Bone
Please don't take offense, but this sort of reminds me of the smokescreens generated around the time I left in 86. I remember Chris G33r telling folks not to just look at the facts but to look at the truth behind the facts.
And the best diversionary tactic that certain upper echelon bozos deployed was making like all the controversy & issues were really being stirred up by devil spirits.
IMHO, the Bible lays a lot more responsibility on the individual than the typical TWI-follower cares to acknowledge. I think this is evident in the way Jesus confronted sin.
Luke 17:1-3 NASB
1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."
How does the above passage fit with the way TWI handles sin? Did Jesus say "Don't blame the guy who caused another to stumble – blame a devil spirit instead" ?
I'm a Christian – and believe there is an intense spiritual battle going on – not only around us – but within as well! We can be our own worst enemies sometimes – through sin – as we wrestle with our own fallen nature/sinful tendencies. It seems some folks just gave up on the battle within – letting sin dominate their lives. Why would devil spirits have to waste their energy on someone who is already hellbent on evil.
IMHO, the cold hard fact of many a "demise" in TWI was due to a weak stance on sin! Everyone can thank the New Knoxville Gnostic [vp] for that. And THAT is THE reason for the demise of the whole Mickey Mouse organization anyway – it was a sham – built on the personality of vp – with an agenda that served his sinful passions. The mantle vp passed onto LCM was infused with a taste for adultery. Listen to the through the fog interview if you haven't already.
"What devil spirits were operating in The Way?" – more like, what con artists were operating in the way! I think vp's idea of discerning of spirits was being able to find the Drambuie in a liquor store he wasn't familiar with.
Proverbs 6 has a stern warning against adultery. I'm inclined to think that's what really happened spiritually. A person brings destruction on himself when he commits adultery.
Proverbs 6:27-29 NASB
27 Can a man take fire in his bosom
And his clothes not be burned?
28 Or can a man walk on hot coals
And his feet not be scorched?
29 So is the one who goes in to his neighbor's wife;
Whoever touches her will not go unpunished.
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Oakspear
Martindale inherited an organization, as has been said before, based on a man's personality. Wierwille could get away with a lot simply because he was a good enough con man to fool people. He kept enough of a veneer of "biblical research, teaching and fellowship" that people thought they were involved in a godly organization.
Really, what did Martindale do that was, at the heart, any different than what Wierwille did? The adultery wasn't new, and the research wasn't any worse, so what was different? Martindale had Wierwille's ability to rip the heart out of a person but without Wierwille's skill at covering his tracks and making it look like it was "according to the Word".
In my opinion, Martindale believed the hype about himself as God's spokesman, while Wierwille never really did. Wierwille used the perception that he was the MOG, Martindale's belief in the concept took away any restraint that he may have had.
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Sunesis
I think VP was a false prophet. I think he was laughing all the way to the bank that his little "keeds" would do whatever he asked.
I believe he made merchandise of the Word and his followers.
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Imagine
T-bone
Thank you for your thought provoking answer.
Thank you for taking the time to write back.
I also like how organized your post was. (Librarian speaking here)
And the pretty colors with red and blue.
I agree that the adultery issue was major and I didn't even know it was going on although I should have but choose to think well of folks.
The issue you brought up about how sin was not emphasized is good. Many committed sin readily because forgiveness was so available that the attitude was "why not?"
I think the spirit of PRIDE was alive and well in the leadership because they expected honor but were not willing to subject themselves to the example of Christ.
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Bumpy
I think you catch on quick! Were you an advanced class grad?
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Sunesis
Obviously I catch on a lot quicker than you.
What did you graduate from? Judging from your posts, you may want to look into finally getting your GED after all these years. It may help.
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waysider
Hello, Imagine
I'll cut straight to the chase and state that I believe that what was taught in The Way about the Devil and devil spirits was a bunch of nonsense.
Think about it logically in light of what was taught in the Advanced Class. Wierwille was an alcoholic. (devil spirit) He was a chronic sexual predator. (devil spirit) He was obsessed with material possessions, such as a fleet of classic cars and motorcycles as well as special guns and dogs (devil spirit) He twisted The Word to satisfy his own personal agenda. (devil spirit) He was addicted to nicotine and chain smoked like there was no tomorrow. (devil spirit) His cause of death was cancer. (devil spirit) he was so fearful someone might assassinate him, he surrounded himself with armed guards (devil spirit) and so on. Did you know he "borrowed" the definitions he used in the Advanced Class word-for-word? By his own "teachings", the man was literally riddled with devil spirits. How come nobody got revelation (discerning of spirits) about it? Now, I'm not talking about people who spent time with him up close and personal and had opportunity to see(5 senses) how he lived, I'm talking about people who met with him at The Rock Of Ages and Limb Meetings and that sort of thing. This doesn't speak highly of the value of the nine "manifestations".
The whole thing was a crock of grasshopper spit. (IMHO)
There were no "devil spirits" at work, just a self absorbed flim-flam man who didn't care who he had to hurt in order to get whatever he wanted.
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George Aar
And there you have it folks, the whole of WayWorld, in one concise, bite-sized piece! (amazing how we can go on blathering about it for YEARS after though, huh?)
It IS kinda sad in retrospect, though. All the time, effort and means wasted for such a pathetic, petty, P.O.S., "knock-off" ministry. Geeze, at least we coulda picked a major player in the Cult game, but NOOOO...
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Bumpy
FINALLY, someone has removed the curtains and the whole melodrama has now been exposed! Congratulations!!
Between years in Kansas, on da field and here in cyberland, you might think it was...about TIME?
...but wait, maybe there is still a little more doubt? Someone start another thread?!
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