Well we all believed a lot of things once that have been since been proven false. I imagine this is just one more instance of needing to re evaluate what we once held to be *truth*
No doubt. I do believe there were other times where the spirit (& Spirit) of God confirmed he was rather remarkably walking by the spirit.
It's a conundrum when I read accounts of others who say because he did sush & such, he was a false prophet who coudn't have walked with God in any regard.
Whether he was walking by the spirit is open to debate. Remarkably? There's no sign of any special anointing. I don't think he was any better at discerning in a spiritual sense than anyone else. Was he able to zero in on dysfunction and exploit it? No doubt about it. Was he in the "gifted" category in that regard. Probably, although it's a "gift" that is often misused as we saw.
VPW was not a prophet. I haven't studied the prophets in depth, but even a cursory reading does not reveal people who possessed the character of VPW. They did not act in ways that tarnished the name of God. He was more like David, except that even David eventually got that what he did to Bathsheba and Uriah was wrong. I don't think VPW ever thought that what he did was wrong. The fact that he didn't get that wrongness makes the idea that he "walked with God" to be rather absurd. Can you "walk with God" and sin? Not while you're sinning. Did he walk with God sometimes? Perhaps. But an ongoing walk shows growth in certain areas of life. To me, it looked like he regressed in certain areas. 1 area was that he held the idea that he was immune from the consequences of risky behavior. Another area was that he did not become more Christ-like in his behavior, he became less Christ-like. He covered that by making up different rules as to what being Christ-like entailed.
In retrospect, there are so very many instances that I thought were God inspired but turned out to be false, such as all the propaganda from Liberty Lobby that he passed off as revelation, that it is difficult for me to consider that anything at all was really from God.
No doubt. I do believe there were other times where the spirit (& Spirit) of God confirmed he was rather remarkably walking by the spirit.
It's a conundrum when I read accounts of others who say because he did sush & such, he was a false prophet who coudn't have walked with God in any regard.
Whether he was walking by the spirit is open to debate. Remarkably? There's no sign of any special anointing. I don't think he was any better at discerning in a spiritual sense than anyone else.
When I say remarkably, Tz, I'm talking remarkably to me. And no doubt there were, and may be now hopefully, others who walked/are walking more remarkably. I'm not talking about things I heard or read, but things I witness - my spirit bearing witness with his spirit & God's Spirit. You know? Or maybe you don't know, but anyway...
Tz,
even a cursory reading does not reveal people who possessed the character of VPW.
Maybe Sampson somewhat.
TZ,
I don't think VPW ever thought that what he did was wrong. The fact that he didn't get that wrongness makes the idea that he "walked with God" to be rather absurd.
I think he did realize the wrongness of his life at times, but, like you, Tz, that's just what I think.
Realized his wrongness? I strongly disagree. I think if he had any conception of the harm he caused, or possessed one iota of empathy or compassion for those who`s lives he shredded...he might have at the very LEAST offered an apology.
I am not picking on you, but please consider Tom, do you ever wonder if it is you/we that need for him to possess some tiny bit of goodness, a shred of decency? Do we need to feel like he wasn`t a monster, make allowances so that we don`t have to admit that WE might be mistaken in our own understanding?
Sometimes we as ex wafers remind me of a good friend that I had. She was always looking to be married, wasn`t happy being single no matter how successful her life was. Every man that she met, after an hour or two, she was sure was *Mr. Right*.
In her manic need to be married, she saw attributes and character, and interest in any given man that just wasn`t ever really there. In her desperate need to see these guys as her soul mate, she refused to see
who or what any particular fellow really was...
I feel that like my friend, in our need to still be spiritually right on, it is quite possible that we sometimes need to see and believe in a goodness and spiritual wholesomeness in vp and twi that simply wasn`t ever really there.
I feel that like my friend, in our need to still be spiritually right on, it is possible that we sometimes need to see and believe in a goodness and spiritual wholesomeness in vp and twi that simply wasn`t ever really there.
I did for years because so much of my identity was wrapped up in that teaching. I knew things other Christians didn't--it was a bit of a shock to learn I was just like everyone else. That God had not enlightened me more with knowledge that had not been known since the 1st Century. It really unraveled who I thought I was.
Bigger shock to learn WHAT VP et al were. That one stung a bit. But, it took me even longer to realize that IF they were that bad--God may not have entrusted them with all this "Special" (unknown for centuries) truth.
THEN I had to crash way down and recognize that other Christians had an in--I had yet to find. Shock to learn they were really just NICE!!
When I miss the boat--I really miss it. With TWI I missed it--but I can understand having so much invested--it is hard to let go.
No doubt. I do believe there were other times where the spirit (& Spirit) of God confirmed he was rather remarkably walking by the spirit.
It's a conundrum when I read accounts of others who say because he did sush & such, he was a false prophet who coudn't have walked with God in any regard.
Was VP "walking by the spirit" or was the spirit working in the situation, and happened to be using your trust in VP's opinion to save your life? This was a common misunderstanding about the holy spirit field in TWI. The emphasis was on what WE do with OUR spirit by renewing OUR mind. The focus was all on ourselves, and not on God. But in the Bible there are instances of God working through even unbelievers to bring His will to pass. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Pilate come to mind as examples. God, by way of His spirit, can work in a situation, and make use of whatever is there to achieve his ultimate goal. When we realize it, the focus is on Him rather than on who was "walking."
This conversation seems to me to center around a couple of questions that IMO are not easy ones to handle. I can think of several scriptural records surrounding Jesus Christ where the pharasee's tried to get people to thank God for Jesus' works but ignore Jesus. I'm not likening our view of Dr. as the same as that because I've seen ample evidence to believe that God and his word disqualifies Dr. Wierwille as a serious candidate for being a Man-of-God.
I still believe that the Grace of God functioned in TWI through the scriptures even though Dr. was dishonest in his handling of the sources for his teachings of God's Word. I've seen enough to believe that the Grace of God functioned in people that I knew and not just based on stories about someone that I never met or got to know.
If the Grace of God did live in TWI it was in pockets of believers that were not corrupted by TWI top leadership practices, but even then I believe that the leaven was enough to spoil the entire lump.
One more thing for now, if you please. Sometimes when I refer to TWI I'm refering to leadership and their corrupt hypocrisy. In my heart though when I think of TWI I think of many, many sincere and good Christians who were simply duped. I believe that if TWI leadership had thought of TWI leadership as a group of believers that they were simply a part of that the TWI organization may not have become as exclusionary and twisted as it ended up being. Not to mention the truth (IMO) that many of us considered ourselves superior to the rest of Christianity. WE WERE FOOLS!
the word in the flesh holy crap please tell me what splinter group that was ?
Dearest Excathedra,
O.k., just check your E-mail. I don't think it would be right to out the twisted bastard that I had to deal with (up close and personal like) in public here at the Greasespot. But I'm happy to talk about these things with you as you'll see. :)
Tzaia – I agree. I lean toward vp being a sociopath – in other words, he lacked a conscience. He "dignified" a seared conscience by his pet phrases like, I've so renewed my mind that this _______ [fill in the blank with the sin of your choice] doesn't bother me…or, unto the pure, all things are pure.
Rascal – often it comes down to people see what they want to see - good point of your friend projecting what she wanted to see. Maybe there's a "law" of believing equals perceiving. <_< ....Something quite different from that – but also came to mind from your post are the stages one goes through when dealing with the aftermath of a traumatic experience. One of the first things is denial. No! It can't be! You mean I was tricked?! But I think that phase is a normal reaction – part of our defense mechanism to deny thoughts & feelings that could cause more anxiety – making things even worse. Maybe it buys us some time – to let our heads "catch up" and fully process what actually happened. Hopefully, the person moves on from denial – to not only accept want happened but to take the necessary "therapeutic" steps to recovery.
Jeff – that's the sweet & sour taste of my TWI experience too…and probably so for many folks here. I often think of the good, decent, honest folks that crossed my path in TWI – that's the sweet side. On the bitter side – yeah vp duped us….He11, it was more than that! He built an empire that EXPLOITED people – maintaining a tyrannical reign through something that was imperceptible to followers – the TWI mindset.
Imho, the impact of vp's deception is by far worse than a simple con-job…where say a crook swindles someone out of $5,000. What is that in comparison to followers basing decisions on the doctrines, priorities & agenda of TWI? Think of the far-reaching ramifications: career paths derailed, marriages & families broken up, education stunted, often-exacerbating pre-existing mental health issues of folks thus afflicted…I mean – how much do we want to look into the can of worms…
But I guess that's part of the healing process [looking into my personal can of worms]…I can't change the past…what's done is done…Part of my healing process is learning how to make wise decisions from now on. It's an ongoing project, of course...I'm a firm believer in learning from my mistakes [studying my can of worms is indeed very educational ].
Wow! That's more than a little different wording. The Word in the Flesh was what Jesus himself is called. To my knowledge even VPW never went that far. The disease has progressed!
Dear Mark,
Yeah, it seems worse in my splinter group to me too!
This is how they finessed this nasty saying in my former splinter group, FYI.
It was o.k. to call him, "The Word in the Flesh" because it was God who worked on this man's heart to save us all from our faults and we owe him everything now. And further more, "The Word IN the flesh" is not THE SAME as "The Word MADE flesh" which is the kjv translation for that phrase that applies to Jesus Christ.
I don't think they liked my attitude that it what they were promoting was deranged hogwash.
...No! It can't be! You mean I was tricked?![/color][/i][/b] But I think that phase is a normal reaction – part of our defense mechanism to deny thoughts & feelings that could cause more anxiety – making things even worse. Maybe it buys us some time – to let our heads "catch up" and fully process what actually happened.
A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: “Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information.” Pg. 107. Our task, it seems to me, is to first be aware these exist and then try and offset them with reality checks. For me, reality checks include listening to other people, reading a lot, and making more time for contemplation and reflection on my life than modern society normally allows. Hey, no one said it's easy.
No doubt. I do believe there were other times where the spirit (& Spirit) of God confirmed he was rather remarkably walking by the spirit.
It's a conundrum when I read accounts of others who say because he did sush & such, he was a false prophet who coudn't have walked with God in any regard.
I understand false prophets can at times do miracles..
I know of one, genuine, at least to the recipient, healing the vicster supposedly performed..
his "jesus lookalike" miracle in india.. is questionable at best.
looking at the wake of sexual and otherwise abuse victims.. ruined lives.. I think any "good" he did exacted a great price..
A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: "Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information." Pg. 107. Our task, it seems to me, is to first be aware these exist and then try and offset them with reality checks. For me, reality checks include listening to other people, reading a lot, and making more time for contemplation and reflection on my life than modern society normally allows. Hey, no one said it's easy.
Cheers,
Your neighborhood book hound, Penworks
Well that is interesting ... I had to look up lacuna ... I saw in art it may be an area of a painting that is missing or bare from damage.
For people still loyal to old vpw images, the bad things become black holes. Their full image is a fairy tale, and the mind seems able to sublimate and hide a multitude of sins, to maintain the fantasy. It seems Jeff's transition in the initial post is an example of an "awakening".
If we can pull off the outer layer of what we wanted the thang to be, something more raw and real appears. Even after twenty years, it seems there can still be discovery at a place like GSC.
And removing the blinders helps us see what went wrong, so we can willfully decide what we want our life/masterpiece to be from here on. If we are not God's special chosen few (TWI or Corps), who are we? What is past is prologue.
Mostly we probably hide things about ourselves ... like T-Bone mentioned .... admitting we were tricked, for example. But to go on being tricked doesn't seem a good alternative.
Shedding a TWI fantasy for another fantasy seems standard operating procedure, but as we age and notice our own physical frailities, contemplating reality hopefully becomes easier.
Did VP give up on his MOG fantasy at age 50 or so, and decide to invent his own MOG world? ... that was around his PFAL filming time ... did he turn at some point, to looking at reality ... or did he still think he was MOG ... and his own lacunas allowed him the privilege of strong drink and many women?
btw, I saw the oldest man in India just died, he was 139, so maybe we still have time ... ha
A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: "Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information." Pg. 107. Our task, it seems to me, is to first be aware these exist and then try and offset them with reality checks. For me, reality checks include listening to other people, reading a lot, and making more time for contemplation and reflection on my life than modern society normally allows. Hey, no one said it's easy.
Cheers,
Your neighborhood book hound, Penworks
Thanks, Penworks - I'll have to check out that book. Ya know, I think Lacuna was the name of the company that erased unwanted memories in the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind...your post makes me want to watch that again.
A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: “Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information.”
holy crapola, penworks, i don't even care what a lacuna is. the rest of that was just -- oh man
Lately, Ive been considering the very action of criticizing Wierwille in TWI circles. I have to admit that some of my opinions will be based on my splinter group experience. It seems to me that the splinter was an offshoot of TWI and many, many things that I saw with my own eyes simply grew out of TWI practice.
My splinter group leader was excessively focussed on what people thought of him. Once, one of his chief thugsters (Yes, the same one that moved my wife and son, and kicked me out of the group) said to me concerning our fearful leader," He just somehow seems to know who to hold on too, and who to let go!" Since I later got let go, I think that I am in a position to form an opinion on how this worked. It seems to me that the only thing that counted to this head jerk was whether or not he felt that he OWNED you. A large part of this is whether or not he felt genuine affection from his ensnared disciples. Toward the end, I flat told him that I would mock him! This was about three weeks before they wrecked my life as much as they could.
I'm certain from experience and an abundance of testimony here at the Greasespot that if I had told Wierwille to his face that I would MOCK HIM that he would have wrecked my life too!
I'm certain that blind loyalty in the face of overwhelming evidence is one of the things that Wierwille encouraged and rewarded within the TWI structure.
I'm certain that top TWI leadership would have been happy if fewer people were susceptible to the fact that Wierwille was a sick, twisted wreck of a human soul. But for the TWI faithful, as they were taught, to criticize Wierwille is blasphemy, what a crock. Even Jesus Christ didn't think that speaking ill of him was unforgivable. And now according to TWI practice and my splinter group's doctrine, everything hinges on whether or not you'd "give it up" for the bid dogs.
(added in editing)
I just remembered, my splinter group leader once accused me of ANALYZING HIM. All I can say is yes I did....DUUHH!
And I'm really glad looking back at things that, that it's probably a good thing that compared to Wierwille, Martindale seemed like a transparent buffoon!
I've been thinking about tis some more. Just about being a tool that is.
Maybe if someone spends their religious youth and zeal on any organization with a hidden agenda and doctrines that they are a tool. The same might be said of being zealous for any organization with hidden, evil agendas. It doesn't much matter the nature of the organization; profesional, humanitarian, etc.
In my mind the most common reference to being a tool, is someone who fools THEMSELVES into thinking that they are something that they are not. For instance, a man who thinks he's a ladies man but all the girls calls him a tool behind his back. This applies IMO to either gender who is into SOMETHING, but in reality does not get it.
One of the keys for me right now in considering this matter is the question of blame. Does the individual DELIBERATELY LIE AND PROMOTE TWI's hidden agendas or not. Or were we SUCKERED into laying down our lives for a man like WIERWILLE who talked a real good game, but fed his lusts with the ministration of God's Word being the cover for his twisted and sick activities.
One of my biggest concerns right now is that the victims of TWI abuse might think that they were tools. I do not want people who I've come to be concerned for to blame themselves when before God the blame lies with TWI leadership who knew what they were doing when they turned the supposed ministration of the truth into the base and vile action of doing everything that they could to convince the duped to participate in the cruel system that they set up and controlled.
I do not feel shame for in times past promoting TWI when all that I did was believe their lies. I do feel guilt for the one woman who might have convinced me of what was really going on that I blew off though. I ask God for mercy for my stupidity, and I can't think about her without hoping and praying that she is o.k. How in that instance I was a TWI tool seems clear to me now, because it had a direct influence on another human being who in truth needed help. I have my doubts that at that time I could have really helped her if I had listened to her, but the fact that I spoke of God's Word being separate and above the actions of men while in an academic sense might be true, the fact that my words might have actually pushed her deeper into the TWI cesspool is hard to face.
You see folks, IMO we cannot speak about the "good things" that were in TWI without being able to come to grips with the plain truth that even though we learned some bible, that TWI was a stinky cesspool that served Wierwille's lusts, including his sexual gratification and his desire for greatness.
The doctrine was flawed, even when it comes to things that I used to think have not been understood since the first century. Some of those things I now to consider dangerous doctrines that only served to AID in the continued existence of the hidden cesspool of TWI practices. One clear example to me of that is how dispensationalism was applied. As it was applied it only served to negate many clear biblical references that if believed, would have helped many people see what TWI truly was. Now IMO the clear references to the the price that wickedness would cost the folks that did evil will yet be fulfilled. But NNNOOO, in TWI the gospels were not written to us, so even today TWI tools think that Wierwille was doing good when he abused women and girls while claiming he was only doing the things that God had called him to do. Or even worse for them, (the tools that is) they do not know how to face the truth that they consented to these vile acts of Wierwille's because Wierwille had made them HIS TOOLS!
Going back to my first post in this thread, IT IS NO EASY THING TO COME TO TERMS WITH HAVING BEEN A TWI TOOL!!!
(EDITED FOR GRAMMAR)
A lot of this seems to apply to this thread too, so I hope you all don't mind me posting it again instead of modifying it.
Dr. Wierwille still has many people that think highly of him. Many of these folks are sincere and wonderful people, just like many wayfers were in the old days.
But contrary to sound doctrine, at Wierwille's direction TWI leadership became the worst group of lieing, infighting, backstabbing, anything goes as long as they maintain control group of people that I know of. IMO this is because Wierwille taught his disciples that destroying folks in order to maintain control was o.k.. To make it worse yet in my mind it was all done in God's name.
When his disciples turned on him and shut him out it was because that is how Wierwille showed them how to act as Christian leadership. I've heard many stories here that portray Wierwille as some kind of thuggish tyrant anyway. I believe he did this often because he found that when he intimidated groups of followers that they were easier to control. The only thing left for Wierwille to do after his hand-picked leaders turned on him was to whine about how badly they hurt him, BAH, they only did what he taught him to do.
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rascal
Well we all believed a lot of things once that have been since been proven false. I imagine this is just one more instance of needing to re evaluate what we once held to be *truth*
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Tzaia
Whether he was walking by the spirit is open to debate. Remarkably? There's no sign of any special anointing. I don't think he was any better at discerning in a spiritual sense than anyone else. Was he able to zero in on dysfunction and exploit it? No doubt about it. Was he in the "gifted" category in that regard. Probably, although it's a "gift" that is often misused as we saw.
VPW was not a prophet. I haven't studied the prophets in depth, but even a cursory reading does not reveal people who possessed the character of VPW. They did not act in ways that tarnished the name of God. He was more like David, except that even David eventually got that what he did to Bathsheba and Uriah was wrong. I don't think VPW ever thought that what he did was wrong. The fact that he didn't get that wrongness makes the idea that he "walked with God" to be rather absurd. Can you "walk with God" and sin? Not while you're sinning. Did he walk with God sometimes? Perhaps. But an ongoing walk shows growth in certain areas of life. To me, it looked like he regressed in certain areas. 1 area was that he held the idea that he was immune from the consequences of risky behavior. Another area was that he did not become more Christ-like in his behavior, he became less Christ-like. He covered that by making up different rules as to what being Christ-like entailed.
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waysider
In retrospect, there are so very many instances that I thought were God inspired but turned out to be false, such as all the propaganda from Liberty Lobby that he passed off as revelation, that it is difficult for me to consider that anything at all was really from God.
Much like the boy who cried "Wolf!" I suppose.
That's just my opinion.
Everyone has one.
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Tom
Tzaia,
When I say remarkably, Tz, I'm talking remarkably to me. And no doubt there were, and may be now hopefully, others who walked/are walking more remarkably. I'm not talking about things I heard or read, but things I witness - my spirit bearing witness with his spirit & God's Spirit. You know? Or maybe you don't know, but anyway...Tz,
Maybe Sampson somewhat.
TZ,
I think he did realize the wrongness of his life at times, but, like you, Tz, that's just what I think.
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rascal
Realized his wrongness? I strongly disagree. I think if he had any conception of the harm he caused, or possessed one iota of empathy or compassion for those who`s lives he shredded...he might have at the very LEAST offered an apology.
I am not picking on you, but please consider Tom, do you ever wonder if it is you/we that need for him to possess some tiny bit of goodness, a shred of decency? Do we need to feel like he wasn`t a monster, make allowances so that we don`t have to admit that WE might be mistaken in our own understanding?
Sometimes we as ex wafers remind me of a good friend that I had. She was always looking to be married, wasn`t happy being single no matter how successful her life was. Every man that she met, after an hour or two, she was sure was *Mr. Right*.
In her manic need to be married, she saw attributes and character, and interest in any given man that just wasn`t ever really there. In her desperate need to see these guys as her soul mate, she refused to see
who or what any particular fellow really was...
I feel that like my friend, in our need to still be spiritually right on, it is quite possible that we sometimes need to see and believe in a goodness and spiritual wholesomeness in vp and twi that simply wasn`t ever really there.
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geisha779
I did for years because so much of my identity was wrapped up in that teaching. I knew things other Christians didn't--it was a bit of a shock to learn I was just like everyone else. That God had not enlightened me more with knowledge that had not been known since the 1st Century. It really unraveled who I thought I was.
Bigger shock to learn WHAT VP et al were. That one stung a bit. But, it took me even longer to realize that IF they were that bad--God may not have entrusted them with all this "Special" (unknown for centuries) truth.
THEN I had to crash way down and recognize that other Christians had an in--I had yet to find. Shock to learn they were really just NICE!!
When I miss the boat--I really miss it. With TWI I missed it--but I can understand having so much invested--it is hard to let go.
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excathedra
darling tom litwin, i'm sooooooo thankful to God you're still here
love,ex
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Mark Clarke
Was VP "walking by the spirit" or was the spirit working in the situation, and happened to be using your trust in VP's opinion to save your life? This was a common misunderstanding about the holy spirit field in TWI. The emphasis was on what WE do with OUR spirit by renewing OUR mind. The focus was all on ourselves, and not on God. But in the Bible there are instances of God working through even unbelievers to bring His will to pass. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Pilate come to mind as examples. God, by way of His spirit, can work in a situation, and make use of whatever is there to achieve his ultimate goal. When we realize it, the focus is on Him rather than on who was "walking."
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JeffSjo
This conversation seems to me to center around a couple of questions that IMO are not easy ones to handle. I can think of several scriptural records surrounding Jesus Christ where the pharasee's tried to get people to thank God for Jesus' works but ignore Jesus. I'm not likening our view of Dr. as the same as that because I've seen ample evidence to believe that God and his word disqualifies Dr. Wierwille as a serious candidate for being a Man-of-God.
I still believe that the Grace of God functioned in TWI through the scriptures even though Dr. was dishonest in his handling of the sources for his teachings of God's Word. I've seen enough to believe that the Grace of God functioned in people that I knew and not just based on stories about someone that I never met or got to know.
If the Grace of God did live in TWI it was in pockets of believers that were not corrupted by TWI top leadership practices, but even then I believe that the leaven was enough to spoil the entire lump.
One more thing for now, if you please. Sometimes when I refer to TWI I'm refering to leadership and their corrupt hypocrisy. In my heart though when I think of TWI I think of many, many sincere and good Christians who were simply duped. I believe that if TWI leadership had thought of TWI leadership as a group of believers that they were simply a part of that the TWI organization may not have become as exclusionary and twisted as it ended up being. Not to mention the truth (IMO) that many of us considered ourselves superior to the rest of Christianity. WE WERE FOOLS!
(EDITED FOR CLARITY)
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JeffSjo
Dearest Excathedra,
O.k., just check your E-mail. I don't think it would be right to out the twisted bastard that I had to deal with (up close and personal like) in public here at the Greasespot. But I'm happy to talk about these things with you as you'll see. :)
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T-Bone
Tzaia – I agree. I lean toward vp being a sociopath – in other words, he lacked a conscience. He "dignified" a seared conscience by his pet phrases like, I've so renewed my mind that this _______ [fill in the blank with the sin of your choice] doesn't bother me…or, unto the pure, all things are pure.
Rascal – often it comes down to people see what they want to see - good point of your friend projecting what she wanted to see. Maybe there's a "law" of believing equals perceiving. <_< ....Something quite different from that – but also came to mind from your post are the stages one goes through when dealing with the aftermath of a traumatic experience. One of the first things is denial. No! It can't be! You mean I was tricked?! But I think that phase is a normal reaction – part of our defense mechanism to deny thoughts & feelings that could cause more anxiety – making things even worse. Maybe it buys us some time – to let our heads "catch up" and fully process what actually happened. Hopefully, the person moves on from denial – to not only accept want happened but to take the necessary "therapeutic" steps to recovery.
Jeff – that's the sweet & sour taste of my TWI experience too…and probably so for many folks here. I often think of the good, decent, honest folks that crossed my path in TWI – that's the sweet side. On the bitter side – yeah vp duped us….He11, it was more than that! He built an empire that EXPLOITED people – maintaining a tyrannical reign through something that was imperceptible to followers – the TWI mindset.
Imho, the impact of vp's deception is by far worse than a simple con-job…where say a crook swindles someone out of $5,000. What is that in comparison to followers basing decisions on the doctrines, priorities & agenda of TWI? Think of the far-reaching ramifications: career paths derailed, marriages & families broken up, education stunted, often-exacerbating pre-existing mental health issues of folks thus afflicted…I mean – how much do we want to look into the can of worms…
But I guess that's part of the healing process [looking into my personal can of worms]…I can't change the past…what's done is done…Part of my healing process is learning how to make wise decisions from now on. It's an ongoing project, of course...I'm a firm believer in learning from my mistakes [studying my can of worms is indeed very educational
].
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JeffSjo
Dear T-Bone,
That sounds about right to me!
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JeffSjo
Dear Mark,
Yeah, it seems worse in my splinter group to me too!
This is how they finessed this nasty saying in my former splinter group, FYI.
It was o.k. to call him, "The Word in the Flesh" because it was God who worked on this man's heart to save us all from our faults and we owe him everything now. And further more, "The Word IN the flesh" is not THE SAME as "The Word MADE flesh" which is the kjv translation for that phrase that applies to Jesus Christ.
I don't think they liked my attitude that it what they were promoting was deranged hogwash.
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JeffSjo
THERE ONCE WAS A TEACHER NAMED WIERWILLE
WHO TAUGHT THAT THINGS WOULD BE SWELL
HIS LITTLE GIRLS CRIED
MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES,THEY DIED
GEE, I GUESS HIS PAYBACK WILL BE HELL.
I just didn't think this limerick belonged in the silly section.
(edited to make it a limerick)
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penworks
A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: “Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information.” Pg. 107. Our task, it seems to me, is to first be aware these exist and then try and offset them with reality checks. For me, reality checks include listening to other people, reading a lot, and making more time for contemplation and reflection on my life than modern society normally allows. Hey, no one said it's easy.
Cheers,
Your neighborhood book hound, Penworks
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Ham
I understand false prophets can at times do miracles..
I know of one, genuine, at least to the recipient, healing the vicster supposedly performed..
his "jesus lookalike" miracle in india.. is questionable at best.
looking at the wake of sexual and otherwise abuse victims.. ruined lives.. I think any "good" he did exacted a great price..
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rhino
Well that is interesting ... I had to look up lacuna ... I saw in art it may be an area of a painting that is missing or bare from damage.
For people still loyal to old vpw images, the bad things become black holes. Their full image is a fairy tale, and the mind seems able to sublimate and hide a multitude of sins, to maintain the fantasy. It seems Jeff's transition in the initial post is an example of an "awakening".
If we can pull off the outer layer of what we wanted the thang to be, something more raw and real appears. Even after twenty years, it seems there can still be discovery at a place like GSC.
And removing the blinders helps us see what went wrong, so we can willfully decide what we want our life/masterpiece to be from here on. If we are not God's special chosen few (TWI or Corps), who are we? What is past is prologue.
Mostly we probably hide things about ourselves ... like T-Bone mentioned .... admitting we were tricked, for example. But to go on being tricked doesn't seem a good alternative.
Shedding a TWI fantasy for another fantasy seems standard operating procedure, but as we age and notice our own physical frailities, contemplating reality hopefully becomes easier.
Did VP give up on his MOG fantasy at age 50 or so, and decide to invent his own MOG world? ... that was around his PFAL filming time ... did he turn at some point, to looking at reality ... or did he still think he was MOG ... and his own lacunas allowed him the privilege of strong drink and many women?
btw, I saw the oldest man in India just died, he was 139, so maybe we still have time ... ha
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T-Bone
Thanks, Penworks - I'll have to check out that book. Ya know, I think Lacuna was the name of the company that erased unwanted memories in the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind...your post makes me want to watch that again.
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excathedra
holy crapola, penworks, i don't even care what a lacuna is. the rest of that was just -- oh man
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JeffSjo
Lately, Ive been considering the very action of criticizing Wierwille in TWI circles. I have to admit that some of my opinions will be based on my splinter group experience. It seems to me that the splinter was an offshoot of TWI and many, many things that I saw with my own eyes simply grew out of TWI practice.
My splinter group leader was excessively focussed on what people thought of him. Once, one of his chief thugsters (Yes, the same one that moved my wife and son, and kicked me out of the group) said to me concerning our fearful leader," He just somehow seems to know who to hold on too, and who to let go!" Since I later got let go, I think that I am in a position to form an opinion on how this worked. It seems to me that the only thing that counted to this head jerk was whether or not he felt that he OWNED you. A large part of this is whether or not he felt genuine affection from his ensnared disciples. Toward the end, I flat told him that I would mock him! This was about three weeks before they wrecked my life as much as they could.
I'm certain from experience and an abundance of testimony here at the Greasespot that if I had told Wierwille to his face that I would MOCK HIM that he would have wrecked my life too!
I'm certain that blind loyalty in the face of overwhelming evidence is one of the things that Wierwille encouraged and rewarded within the TWI structure.
I'm certain that top TWI leadership would have been happy if fewer people were susceptible to the fact that Wierwille was a sick, twisted wreck of a human soul. But for the TWI faithful, as they were taught, to criticize Wierwille is blasphemy, what a crock. Even Jesus Christ didn't think that speaking ill of him was unforgivable. And now according to TWI practice and my splinter group's doctrine, everything hinges on whether or not you'd "give it up" for the bid dogs.
(added in editing)
I just remembered, my splinter group leader once accused me of ANALYZING HIM. All I can say is yes I did....DUUHH!
And I'm really glad looking back at things that, that it's probably a good thing that compared to Wierwille, Martindale seemed like a transparent buffoon!
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excathedra
excellent post, jeff
this statement really was great
can you imagine!!!!! (well, of course, i can)
not being able to THINK, ANALYZE, LOOK AT SOMEONE AND SEE WHAT THEY'RE REALLY ALL ABOUT
oh man. what a crock. and that goes for anybody and everybody who comes into our lives -- leader schmeader whatever
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JeffSjo
A lot of this seems to apply to this thread too, so I hope you all don't mind me posting it again instead of modifying it.
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JeffSjo
Not much time today, but here goes......
Dr. Wierwille still has many people that think highly of him. Many of these folks are sincere and wonderful people, just like many wayfers were in the old days.
But contrary to sound doctrine, at Wierwille's direction TWI leadership became the worst group of lieing, infighting, backstabbing, anything goes as long as they maintain control group of people that I know of. IMO this is because Wierwille taught his disciples that destroying folks in order to maintain control was o.k.. To make it worse yet in my mind it was all done in God's name.
When his disciples turned on him and shut him out it was because that is how Wierwille showed them how to act as Christian leadership. I've heard many stories here that portray Wierwille as some kind of thuggish tyrant anyway. I believe he did this often because he found that when he intimidated groups of followers that they were easier to control. The only thing left for Wierwille to do after his hand-picked leaders turned on him was to whine about how badly they hurt him, BAH, they only did what he taught him to do.
I'm out of time today, bye for now and GOD BLESS.
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Tzaia
Wow, a real page-turner, if you're into things like that.
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