"I'd be dead today if not for Dr. Wierwille/PFAL."
Through the years, even long before GSC, I have heard people use variations of this same phrase on so many occasions that it's difficult to estimate the number.
Does anyone know where this phrase or line of thinking may have originated?
Surely hundreds(maybe thousands) of people did not arrive at this "conclusion" all by themselves.
Is it in a teaching, a song, a magazine article ?
Where did this start?
For one or two people to think this is expected, but hundreds is bizarre.
Remember-----We're talking about a cult being attributed this virtue.
Anyone know?
I'd say it is a combination of things ,one being that many people have a good idea where they were heading and have reasonable reason to think that their life would have ended up in that direction. I know years ago periodically VP would in teachings stop and ask for a show of hands of those that contemplated suicide. The obvious correlation was that they were saved by the word they learned, God ,or indirectly The Way. I think there are other possibilities as well and with out some study those conclusions in every case would be flawed. Although I have no doubt that some were in fact changed. Add to the mix the articles in magazines such as Heart and the Way magazine the stories of people and it was an easy conclusion to arrive at . Also there are a few songs such as Dean Ellenwoods "The WOW Ambassadors " where he shared his own story.
Hi Jeff. You asked, "Is their any other input on this TWI standard of likening people who pick on Dr. Wierwille to carrion eaters?"
You also said, "My premise is simply this, truth and conscience demands that TWI leadership abuse needs to be yelled from the rooftops."
Yes, you've had quite a change of opinion, & you're obviously emotional about it. That's not a slam. TWI put emotions on the backburner as, at best, suspect. I'm not doing that. Emotions are indicators of the inner workings of your being. They ought to be given at least that much respect, acknowledged, their sources sought for, & then reconciled with the broader picture of what you are all about. In the perspectives of many Native Americans, Hawk is a messenger of wisdom and peace because, flying high, Hawk tells us not to get caught in the emotions of the moment, but to see the larger picture. I use the Native American symbol of Hawk because I think you need a different perspective than TWI to relate to.
Your anger is righteous, and the emotions that you're high & rough riding on are - well, the roller coaster ride's not over. Your realization of the evil in VP's life impacts you because of your personal investment in what you thought he was & also the hold that still has on people you love. That's understandable. But there are worse evils - other, deeper carrion, if you will, that you can eat. How far down do you wish to peel the onion? How long do you want to yell about carrion from your rooftop. As I said, there is smellier carrion out there. You do tend to become what you eat. I think it is the Word we are supposed to be yelling from the rooftops. Those you love who have been infected with the poison of adulating VP were also told to respect the Word - while, at the same time being blinded to the true Word, Jesus Christ, by the vail VP put over their eyes. But when they look to the Lord, the vail will be taken away by Jesus Christ; therefore, it is incumbent upon us to live the Word. It is a difficult transition for those who thought TWI was the way. But the true Way rings true. Listen. He speaks. If you listen, you will hear his voice.
If you look at darkness, darkness leads you. But if you walk in the light, not only will you see the darkness, but you will see how to dispell it. Those you love need to see light in their dark place, so they can see the way out.
Hawk, flying high, draws a line in your life. On the other side of the line, your life will change & all things will be higher in quality. It is a high calling.
Ride higher, my brother.
Tom
Dear Tom,
Thank you for the direct feedback. You've given me good things to consider. Some of what you've brought up I have been thinking of already, so here goes.
I think that as it concerns Dr. Wierwille my emotions are well placed, especially since much TWI thinking centered around the promotion of a false picture of Dr.'s life and ministry. I know that you acknowledged that and I'm not feeling defensive at all about your post. I also posting my emotions DELIBERATELY in order for people to consider whether or not they are just. I suppose that me getting feedback on the matter is part of the process that I knew that I would go through by posting my feelings. IMO the TWI attempts to discredit emotional criticism of their stand is because THEY ARE AFRAID OF PEOPLE FEELING THE REVULSION THAT THEIR SICK, TWISTED ACTIONS DESERVE. Even here at the Greasespot it seems to me that Wierwille loyalists have tried to silence the ones who effectively shared their emotional reaction to learning about the evil that lived in Dr.'s heart. I think that from their perspective if they can silence the just outpouring of emotion and successfully make it all academic they find people easier to control, or somehow mitigate the wrath that they fear they may get.
As I've heard many, many stories about how Dr. himself could shake up everyone in a congregation by pouring out of his anger I think it is extreemly hypocritical for these committed loyalists to seek to silence any outpouring of emotion that runs contrary to their positions when they themselves have been worked over by much DISHONEST emotional bullying by the head TWI bigdogs.
As far as how far to peel the onion goes, HOW FAR DO I HAVE TO GO TO HELP FOLKS? My only concern at the moment is that I haven't gone far enough to make it clear to everybody, or to effectively counter the years of EMOTIONAL BULLYING that many suffered at TWI hands. One can only ride high on emotions and not hear the Lord, or one can feel emotions like my Lord did and still listen to HIM. What the heck, a guy's gotta have goals!
Joseph being sold into Egypt is a great way to understand twi involvement.
I'm sure there is something to learn there ... but Joseph maintained his relationship with God ... while being forced into a different place and role.
We were suckered into following a man that filled us with a lot of false doctrine and practices. We were free to leave but were not spiritually or otherwise sharp enough to get out.
I don't see any Josephs in TWI daze ... people were abused, they fed money and time into a destructive cult. The way some men treated their wives (per TWI instruction) is just one example of how we were not Josephs.
I don't see Joseph as being led doctrinally astray ... nor that he was tricked or coerced. I can't see Joseph ever getting into TWI ... as opposed to him being sold into Egypt.
Cultists minds are captured ... whereas Joseph did not give over control, except in the physical.
Not too bad an example IMHO. That falls into the category of easily said, but hard to do however, again IMO.
Joseph being sold into Egypt is a great way to understand twi involvement.
Dear Rascal,
On the other hand, if anyone has suffered false accusations and suffered the consequences as I think many have then the story may well ring true for many.
Not too bad an example IMHO. That falls into the category of easily said, but hard to do however, again IMO."
Rock on Jeff. HE can be as froward as all those who are froward & still maintain the higher perspective. He is, after all, The MOST High.
Just don't get too much blood on your feet.
David was a rather good example also, but because of the blood on his feet, he couldn't build the Temple for his Lord.
That's okay; I'm not faulting David either.
I'm not saying to be afraid of blood, but God will be sufficiently froward to the froward whether you are froward or not. Vengeance is His. Salvation is yours. You are not supposed to WARN about obstructions to salvation until all have been warned, but preach the gospel of peace until all have heard.
It's real life here. God wants you to live salvation, not be a martyr skyrocketing warning against the Adversary.
Ah, either way, I'm in your corner. Like I said, you're on a roller coaster ride that hasn't ended. Kick it. Just, you know, God has called us to peace. I've spent most of my young, middle, & later years skirting the limits of adhesion. Always, on a race track, that sooner or later results in crashing & burning. But God has kept me.
I'm not saying not to rail on. I'm just saying that, in the meanwhile, remember, most of all, God wants you to be blessed. Let Him bless your life.
You are not supposed to WARN about obstructions to salvation until all have been warned, but preach the gospel of peace until all have heard.
It's real life here. God wants you to live salvation, not be a martyr skyrocketing warning against the Adversary.
Ah, either way, I'm in your corner. Like I said, you're on a roller coaster ride that hasn't ended. Kick it. Just, you know, God has called us to peace. I've spent most of my young, middle, & later years skirting the limits of adhesion. Always, on a race track, that sooner or later results in crashing & burning. But God has kept me.
I'm not saying not to rail on. I'm just saying that, in the meanwhile, remember, most of all, God wants you to be blessed. Let Him bless your life.
I'm sure there is something to learn there ... but Joseph maintained his relationship with God ... while being forced into a different place and role.
And many of us who have survived TWI managed to maintain a relationship with God in spite of the dire surroundings.
We were suckered into following a man that filled us with a lot of false doctrine and practices. We were free to leave but were not spiritually or otherwise sharp enough to get out.
I don't see any Josephs in TWI daze ... people were abused, they fed money and time into a destructive cult. The way some men treated their wives (per TWI instruction) is just one example of how we were not Josephs.
That's an example of how the leaders were not Josephs. But wouldn't you say the people who were abused, tricked, and otherwise hurt were like Joseph at least in the sense that they seemed to be the victim but ended up on top because of God working?
I don't see Joseph as being led doctrinally astray ... nor that he was tricked or coerced. I can't see Joseph ever getting into TWI ... as opposed to him being sold into Egypt.
Cultists minds are captured ... whereas Joseph did not give over control, except in the physical.
He did not "willingly" give over control, but he was cheated, taken advantage of, captured, and later falsely accused by Potiphar's wife. I can see a number of parallels between Joseph's situation and that of anyone who is mistreated but comes out on top.
True Rhino, I guess I was looking at it from the view point of God able to make something that someone intended for evil, turn out for good.
He did not "willingly" give over control, but he was cheated, taken advantage of, captured, and later falsely accused by Potiphar's wife. I can see a number of parallels between Joseph's situation and that of anyone who is mistreated but comes out on top.
Well if you generalize enough ... sure, there are always some points ...
But rascal mentioned comparing it to our time in TWI ... it seems more opposite to me.
He was under physical duress yet did not submit ... we were told we were better/smarter than others ... and were tricked into following a man.
Some who got out did OK I guess .. some are still trying to recover. But maybe some good happened despite the negative surroundings ... and our leading people to a cult ... hmmm ... I don't think it was just the leaders that did harm.
I just can't see Joseph in the cult ... he kept his mind free.
Not too bad an example IMHO. That falls into the category of easily said, but hard to do however, again IMO.
Dear Rascal,
On the other hand, if anyone has suffered false accusations and suffered the consequences as I think many have then the story may well ring true for many.
Hi Jeff,
I hear you as well. David cried out to the Lord for justice--He was not afraid to ask Him for it, because he knew that God's justice would reveal Him in all His wonderful Glory and power--and also in mercy and forgiveness.
I am not preaching forgivness here--but only to shout as loudly to the Lord for an understanding. Your heart seems burdened with the wrong and unjust nature of the abuse in TWI. That is a good thing!!!
It is a process now--keep shouting until you get hoarse--I will shout with you, but at the end of the day--we want to see Him glorified in ALL of this. So, that His heart is displayed--and all who were so very hurt and are still imprisoned --are healed.
That is in here--I know it is. I know He is able. Listen to your heart--He uses it, but just include Him in the shouting --for He really is able to help.
A good while back Vince Finnigan did a teaching on figures of speech that I remember from the early eighties. As it was a publically offered teaching I have no problem using his name. I will now rework the figures of speech that he covered and even shamelessly copy his points and some of the structure, but the topic will fit this thread (hehehe) and still cover the specific figures of speach that he shared.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS LIKE A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks work, and emotionally bullied many into submission," that would be a SIMILE.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks works, emotionally bullied many into submission, and caused the ruin of TWI," that would be a METAPHOR.
If i simply looked at these things and yelled at the top of my lungs,"BAAASSSTAAARRRD!!!" That would be an example of the figure of speach "HYPOCATASTASIS."
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS LIKE A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks work, and emotionally bullied many into submission," that would be a SIMILE.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks works, emotionally bullied many into submission, and caused the ruin of TWI," that would be a METAPHOR.
If i simply looked at these things and yelled at the top of my lungs,"BAAASSSTAAARRRD!!!" That would be an example of the figure of speach "HYPOCATASTASIS."
Actually, I don't think any of those are figures of speech ...
A child born out of wedlock.
Something that is of irregular, inferior, or dubious origin.
Slang. A person, especially one who is held to be mean or disagreeable.
I hear your concerns and I will not discount what you are saying, but instead continue to consider. Right off the top of my head however, I think that my feet may get a little bloody (if that's not overstating it that is, in some parts of the world Christians deal with real blood and not just a little rebuke.) but I did not spill this blood, and it looks to me like I may have to walk through it to get to people.
I mean, really, like Vince Finnigan would mind getting shown what Dr. did to many other teachers by me borrowing the figures and the structure of my sharing from him. After all, at least I'm giving Vince due credit for his work. I'll even give him the majority of the credit if he wants it because I wouldn't even have had the knowledge without him.
It still really is hard to take in when I think of the wonderful Christians that I knew in TWI, and then have to look at what went wrong in TWI.
I think that the pressure cooker situation that top leadership was required to live in because of how Dr. set the ministry up compromised them.
Now it seems that even though I knew many sincere and capable people that at a certain level, to be top leadership they had to sell out their integrity on certain issues. And because of how top leadership was trained in those circumstances they've became the worst liars (as a group) that I know of.
It seems like trying to find out what went wrong from them is like trying to pull the teeth out of a live bear.
A good while back Vince Finnigan did a teaching on figures of speech that I remember from the early eighties. As it was a publically offered teaching I have no problem using his name. I will now rework the figures of speech that he covered and even shamelessly copy his points and some of the structure, but the topic will fit this thread (hehehe) and still cover the specific figures of speach that he shared.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS LIKE A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks work, and emotionally bullied many into submission," that would be a SIMILE.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks works, emotionally bullied many into submission, and caused the ruin of TWI," that would be a METAPHOR.
If i simply looked at these things and yelled at the top of my lungs,"BAAASSSTAAARRRD!!!" That would be an example of the figure of speach "HYPOCATASTASIS."
Actually, no need to give VF credit for those things, imo. They're common figures that you had in middle or high school. Kids learn the first two in third grade now. But, nice to do so anyway if that's what you want to do.
Jeff, your assessment of how hard it is to assess what was going on seems right on to me; although I think there are a lot of previous TWI leadership here that may be very into being honest with you.
Be that as it may or may be - I was never top leadership in any place - thank God - but anything you would you like to know, please ask. I did hang in there from '72 till '96 in one capacity or another
I did borrow from Vinces outline and the punchline he used was "PIGPEN" while mine was "BAAASSSTAAARRRD." I was attempting to put in real terms what Dr. did to many others while allowing himself to be billed as the MOGFDAT. In my splinter group the leader allowed himself to be billed as "The Word in the Flesh." To me the disease is the same but the words are a little different. In both cases their handling of God's Word and their behavior seem to disqualify them for being considered as much of anything besides puffed up madmen. It pains me to realize that in both cases good people have been harmed.
Dear Tom,
I know that you're about former leadership here being into honesty and I'm glad for it because it confirms the testimony of the many victims of TWI leadership that post here. In general on this site I prefer conversations being kept out here in the broad daylight where everybody can see and learn, or critique if necessary. Thank you too.
...In my splinter group the leader allowed himself to be billed as "The Word in the Flesh." To me the disease is the same but the words are a little different.
Wow! That's more than a little different wording. The Word in the Flesh was what Jesus himself is called. To my knowledge even VPW never went that far. The disease has progressed!
In my splinter group the leader allowed himself to be billed as "The Word in the Flesh." To me the disease is the same but the words are a little different. In both cases their handling of God's Word and their behavior seem to disqualify them for being considered as much of anything besides puffed up madmen.
Mark, BTW, visited your website & blog - very interesting - you've done some nice homework - wish I had more time to talk in detail.
Wow! That's more than a little different wording. The Word in the Flesh was what Jesus himself is called. To my knowledge even VPW never went that far. The disease has progressed!
excathedra - hello darling - big hug.
the word in the flesh holy crap please tell me what splinter group that was ?
Okay, this brings to mind something. Sharing this makes me vulnerable. Please don't attack.
The scene is PFAL 77. My then wife & I are both still very much recovering from an accident in '76 in which we should have died (I mean, really. The hospital called my wife's parents, & told them to come pick up her body. They told my parents I had 1 to 3% chance of living, & that, if I didn't die, I'd live the rest of my life as a vegetable. Someone did die. Some here know the story. Many here probably engaged in a week of intercessory prayer - thank you - that's why I'm alive).
The turning point came one night when a sweet believer whom we had recently witnessed to showed up at the prayer vigil site & told the guy she was replacing that she was a brand new believer, had just been lead into speaking in tongues, & didn't know what to do. Before the fellow left, he told her to hold a picture of me & my wife in perfect health in her mind while she spoke in tongues for us. If anything other than perfect health broke into the picture, she should realize God was telling her we needed help & ask God to fix it.
Oh, this is getting longer than I intended. Many here have heard it before. Long story short. She stayed there all night by herself praying – I stayed awake all night talking to God about whether or not I had a life worth living waiting should I want it. No one told me I’d be a vegetable & look like Frankenstein if I lived, but I knew I was about as totally screwed as anybody can get & still be alive (for a brief period). To die seemed the easy alternative. Living was scary – especially like a mentally very deficient Frankenstein looking beast. But the thing about it was I was a believer. I didn’t want to die on a punk foot confession that God can’t deliver, & the next thing I know, look Jesus in the face on the tail end of my punk foot confession. But I wasn’t willing to go on, not knowing how everything got so screwed up, only to have it happen again somewhere down the line. So, I told God I’d go back & live if He’d heal me so I didn’t live my life as a freak, & if He’d teach me what happened so that I’d learn how to keep it from happening again. That was the deal between me & God. Meanwhile, the girl at the prayer vigil sees my head falling apart, & tells God to put it back together. That morning, my leadership shows at the prayer vigil before coming to the hospital to see me. The girl tells them that God showed her that I was going to die, but she asked God to heal me & he did & would. She tells them that God had a long talk with me & told them that I would tell them what God’s love had communicated to me when they came to visit.
As soon as they came into my room, I told them about God’s love just like she said. I don’t remember the specifics – actually, it was pretty much the 1st time I was solidly out of a coma for 3 days.
They asked me what I knew about deceiving spirits (I had just finished agreeing that God would teach me what had made things so screwed up), told me that my internal bleeding had stopped over the night, & that the doctors HAD to operate on my immediately or I would die. I wouldn’t do it – I wanted Dr. Weingardner (SP?) to operate on me. My mother told me I was going to die & asked me if there was anyway I would let them operate on me. I said the only way I would do that without Dr. Weingardner doing it was if Dr. Wierwille said I should & gave mom the phone # from HQ (having lived there, I knew the #). Mom came back a few minutes later with a note from VP saying that Dr. W wasn’t trained to do the kind of operation I needed, that the best people in the world to do the kind of operation I needed were at the hospital waiting to do it, having been called in from Duke University to do it, that I should believe that the grace of God was holding me more firmly than the bed I was on, let them operate, & I would wake up alive if I did.
Much longer story short like I said – read the forthcoming book.
Anyway, my wife & I, after taking care of bills, spent the rest – I mean all the rest, we were broke after that – of our insurance money to go to PFAL 77. We figured that we needed something spiritual to go on – what with the talk of deceiving spirits & all.
End of PFAL 77, VP goes into this talk of about how his life is broken bread for the Body of Christ, like that of Jesus Christ, how that is the life that Jesus Christ has for those in the church – that our lives are to be that broken bread for God’s own, like Jesus’ life was, how that’s what it is all about, &, if we don’t see that (at the end of all this PFAL 77), our eyes have got to be blinded by deceiving devil spirits. End of class – immediately followed by others bringing out a gift for the teacher – this huge 3D replica of the last supper – Jesus Christ talking about his body being bread to be broken for us, etc.
Deep, deep truth – despite the fact that you can talk to devils in any insane asylum in the country any day of the week who will tell you that they are Jesus, Mary, or Joseph. Did he live it? IMHO, sometimes – when he wasn’t being a scum bag.
Okay, this brings to mind something. Sharing this makes me vulnerable. Please don't attack.
The scene is PFAL 77. My then wife & I are both still very much recovering from an accident in '76 in which we should have died (I mean, really. The hospital called my wife's parents, & told them to come pick up her body. They told my parents I had 1 to 3% chance of living, & that, if I didn't die, I'd live the rest of my life as a vegetable. Someone did die. Some here know the story. Many here probably engaged in a week of intercessory prayer - thank you - that's why I'm alive).
The turning point came one night when a sweet believer whom we had recently witnessed to showed up at the prayer vigil site & told the guy she was replacing that she was a brand new believer, had just been lead into speaking in tongues, & didn't know what to do. Before the fellow left, he told her to hold a picture of me & my wife in perfect health in her mind while she spoke in tongues for us. If anything other than perfect health broke into the picture, she should realize God was telling her we needed help & ask God to fix it.
Oh, this is getting longer than I intended. Many here have heard it before. Long story short. She stayed there all night by herself praying – I stayed awake all night talking to God about whether or not I had a life worth living waiting should I want it. No one told me I’d be a vegetable & look like Frankenstein if I lived, but I knew I was about as totally screwed as anybody can get & still be alive (for a brief period). To die seemed the easy alternative. Living was scary – especially like a mentally very deficient Frankenstein looking beast. But the thing about it was I was a believer. I didn’t want to die on a punk foot confession that God can’t deliver, & the next thing I know, look Jesus in the face on the tail end of my punk foot confession. But I wasn’t willing to go on, not knowing how everything got so screwed up, only to have it happen again somewhere down the line. So, I told God I’d go back & live if He’d heal me so I didn’t live my life as a freak, & if He’d teach me what happened so that I’d learn how to keep it from happening again. That was the deal between me & God. Meanwhile, the girl at the prayer vigil sees my head falling apart, & tells God to put it back together. That morning, my leadership shows at the prayer vigil before coming to the hospital to see me. The girl tells them that God showed her that I was going to die, but she asked God to heal me & he did & would. She tells them that God had a long talk with me & told them that I would tell them what God’s love had communicated to me when they came to visit.
As soon as they came into my room, I told them about God’s love just like she said. I don’t remember the specifics – actually, it was pretty much the 1st time I was solidly out of a coma for 3 days.
They asked me what I knew about deceiving spirits (I had just finished agreeing that God would teach me what had made things so screwed up), told me that my internal bleeding had stopped over the night, & that the doctors HAD to operate on my immediately or I would die. I wouldn’t do it – I wanted Dr. Weingardner (SP?) to operate on me. My mother told me I was going to die & asked me if there was anyway I would let them operate on me. I said the only way I would do that without Dr. Weingardner doing it was if Dr. Wierwille said I should & gave mom the phone # from HQ (having lived there, I knew the #). Mom came back a few minutes later with a note from VP saying that Dr. W wasn’t trained to do the kind of operation I needed, that the best people in the world to do the kind of operation I needed were at the hospital waiting to do it, having been called in from Duke University to do it, that I should believe that the grace of God was holding me more firmly than the bed I was on, let them operate, & I would wake up alive if I did.
Much longer story short like I said – read the forthcoming book.
Anyway, my wife & I, after taking care of bills, spent the rest – I mean all the rest, we were broke after that – of our insurance money to go to PFAL 77. We figured that we needed something spiritual to go on – what with the talk of deceiving spirits & all.
End of PFAL 77, VP goes into this talk of about how his life is broken bread for the Body of Christ, like that of Jesus Christ, how that is the life that Jesus Christ has for those in the church – that our lives are to be that broken bread for God’s own, like Jesus’ life was, how that’s what it is all about, &, if we don’t see that (at the end of all this PFAL 77), our eyes have got to be blinded by deceiving devil spirits. End of class – immediately followed by others bringing out a gift for the teacher – this huge 3D replica of the last supper – Jesus Christ talking about his body being bread to be broken for us, etc.
Deep, deep truth – despite the fact that you can talk to devils in any insane asylum in the country any day of the week who will tell you that they are Jesus, Mary, or Joseph. Did he live it? IMHO, sometimes – when he wasn’t being a scum bag.
I do not question one word of your testimony.
I question your final sentence-the interpretation of events- as the only possibility.
IF vpw were a first-class scumbag who was all show and little substance,
and someone called who had an urgent medical need,
he would certainly advise them to trust those local doctors.
After all, that just happens to be the answer with the least work for him.
So, just that answer tells us nothing of his motives either way-
it's the answer of the genuine AND the fraud.
Similarly, if he was a charlatan who played a part, he would take the stage
and "sell" sermons on Jesus' self-sacrifice. Charlatans do that, and any good
actor could do the same. vpw DID maintain access to teachings from other
Christians all through his career, and use THEM instead of mostly his own work.
If he were a complete fraud, he could use THEIR work and sell it onstage.
To a degree, he would even convince HIMSELF for a moment- the mark of
an actor fully "in the moment."
When Christopher Reeve played Superman, there was a scene in the
first movie where he and Margo Kidder/Lois Lane fly above the city.
The actors were suspended from a wire-frame in a green-screen studio
(bluescreen actually) for the filming.
At one point, Margot's frame was breaking, and she was going to fall.
Reeve pulled her to him to support her.
Afterwards, he said it was the WRONG thing to do-his frame wasn't build to
support TWO people, and could have dropped them both.
But at that moment, he really thought he was Superman, so his instant
response was genuine to the character.
Do I think he ever needed to LIVE the talk to do what he did speaking to you
and when you saw him? No.
Could it all have been genuine? Yes.
Could it all have been a fraud? Yes.
I believe the evidence supports either conclusion.
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I'd say it is a combination of things ,one being that many people have a good idea where they were heading and have reasonable reason to think that their life would have ended up in that direction. I know years ago periodically VP would in teachings stop and ask for a show of hands of those that contemplated suicide. The obvious correlation was that they were saved by the word they learned, God ,or indirectly The Way. I think there are other possibilities as well and with out some study those conclusions in every case would be flawed. Although I have no doubt that some were in fact changed. Add to the mix the articles in magazines such as Heart and the Way magazine the stories of people and it was an easy conclusion to arrive at . Also there are a few songs such as Dean Ellenwoods "The WOW Ambassadors " where he shared his own story.
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JeffSjo
Dear Tom,
Thank you for the direct feedback. You've given me good things to consider. Some of what you've brought up I have been thinking of already, so here goes.
I think that as it concerns Dr. Wierwille my emotions are well placed, especially since much TWI thinking centered around the promotion of a false picture of Dr.'s life and ministry. I know that you acknowledged that and I'm not feeling defensive at all about your post. I also posting my emotions DELIBERATELY in order for people to consider whether or not they are just. I suppose that me getting feedback on the matter is part of the process that I knew that I would go through by posting my feelings. IMO the TWI attempts to discredit emotional criticism of their stand is because THEY ARE AFRAID OF PEOPLE FEELING THE REVULSION THAT THEIR SICK, TWISTED ACTIONS DESERVE. Even here at the Greasespot it seems to me that Wierwille loyalists have tried to silence the ones who effectively shared their emotional reaction to learning about the evil that lived in Dr.'s heart. I think that from their perspective if they can silence the just outpouring of emotion and successfully make it all academic they find people easier to control, or somehow mitigate the wrath that they fear they may get.
As I've heard many, many stories about how Dr. himself could shake up everyone in a congregation by pouring out of his anger I think it is extreemly hypocritical for these committed loyalists to seek to silence any outpouring of emotion that runs contrary to their positions when they themselves have been worked over by much DISHONEST emotional bullying by the head TWI bigdogs.
As far as how far to peel the onion goes, HOW FAR DO I HAVE TO GO TO HELP FOLKS? My only concern at the moment is that I haven't gone far enough to make it clear to everybody, or to effectively counter the years of EMOTIONAL BULLYING that many suffered at TWI hands. One can only ride high on emotions and not hear the Lord, or one can feel emotions like my Lord did and still listen to HIM. What the heck, a guy's gotta have goals!
(edited for spelling)
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rhino
I'm sure there is something to learn there ... but Joseph maintained his relationship with God ... while being forced into a different place and role.
We were suckered into following a man that filled us with a lot of false doctrine and practices. We were free to leave but were not spiritually or otherwise sharp enough to get out.
I don't see any Josephs in TWI daze ... people were abused, they fed money and time into a destructive cult. The way some men treated their wives (per TWI instruction) is just one example of how we were not Josephs.
I don't see Joseph as being led doctrinally astray ... nor that he was tricked or coerced. I can't see Joseph ever getting into TWI ... as opposed to him being sold into Egypt.
Cultists minds are captured ... whereas Joseph did not give over control, except in the physical.
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rascal
True Rhino, I guess I was looking at it from the view point of God able to make something that someone intended for evil, turn out for good.
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JeffSjo
Dear Tom,
Ride higher brother?
To the froward, HE is froward.
Not too bad an example IMHO. That falls into the category of easily said, but hard to do however, again IMO.
Dear Rascal,
On the other hand, if anyone has suffered false accusations and suffered the consequences as I think many have then the story may well ring true for many.
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Tom
Jeff, "Dear Tom,
Ride higher brother?
To the froward, HE is froward.
Not too bad an example IMHO. That falls into the category of easily said, but hard to do however, again IMO."
Rock on Jeff. HE can be as froward as all those who are froward & still maintain the higher perspective. He is, after all, The MOST High.
Just don't get too much blood on your feet.
David was a rather good example also, but because of the blood on his feet, he couldn't build the Temple for his Lord.
That's okay; I'm not faulting David either.
I'm not saying to be afraid of blood, but God will be sufficiently froward to the froward whether you are froward or not. Vengeance is His. Salvation is yours. You are not supposed to WARN about obstructions to salvation until all have been warned, but preach the gospel of peace until all have heard.
It's real life here. God wants you to live salvation, not be a martyr skyrocketing warning against the Adversary.
Ah, either way, I'm in your corner. Like I said, you're on a roller coaster ride that hasn't ended. Kick it. Just, you know, God has called us to peace. I've spent most of my young, middle, & later years skirting the limits of adhesion. Always, on a race track, that sooner or later results in crashing & burning. But God has kept me.
I'm not saying not to rail on. I'm just saying that, in the meanwhile, remember, most of all, God wants you to be blessed. Let Him bless your life.
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excathedra
thank you my dear litwin
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Mark Clarke
And many of us who have survived TWI managed to maintain a relationship with God in spite of the dire surroundings.
That's an example of how the leaders were not Josephs. But wouldn't you say the people who were abused, tricked, and otherwise hurt were like Joseph at least in the sense that they seemed to be the victim but ended up on top because of God working?
He did not "willingly" give over control, but he was cheated, taken advantage of, captured, and later falsely accused by Potiphar's wife. I can see a number of parallels between Joseph's situation and that of anyone who is mistreated but comes out on top.
That's how I was looking at it too.
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rhino
Well if you generalize enough ... sure, there are always some points ...
But rascal mentioned comparing it to our time in TWI ... it seems more opposite to me.
He was under physical duress yet did not submit ... we were told we were better/smarter than others ... and were tricked into following a man.
Some who got out did OK I guess .. some are still trying to recover. But maybe some good happened despite the negative surroundings ... and our leading people to a cult ... hmmm ... I don't think it was just the leaders that did harm.
I just can't see Joseph in the cult ... he kept his mind free.
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dmiller
Joseph never went WOW, or corps That's the difference.
Nother words --- it wasn't his choice.
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geisha779
Hi Jeff,
I hear you as well. David cried out to the Lord for justice--He was not afraid to ask Him for it, because he knew that God's justice would reveal Him in all His wonderful Glory and power--and also in mercy and forgiveness.
I am not preaching forgivness here--but only to shout as loudly to the Lord for an understanding. Your heart seems burdened with the wrong and unjust nature of the abuse in TWI. That is a good thing!!!
It is a process now--keep shouting until you get hoarse--I will shout with you, but at the end of the day--we want to see Him glorified in ALL of this. So, that His heart is displayed--and all who were so very hurt and are still imprisoned --are healed.
That is in here--I know it is. I know He is able. Listen to your heart--He uses it, but just include Him in the shouting --for He really is able to help.
My 2 cents for what it is worth.
:) :) :) :)
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JeffSjo
Thank you Tom and Geisha779,
A good while back Vince Finnigan did a teaching on figures of speech that I remember from the early eighties. As it was a publically offered teaching I have no problem using his name. I will now rework the figures of speech that he covered and even shamelessly copy his points and some of the structure, but the topic will fit this thread (hehehe) and still cover the specific figures of speach that he shared.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS LIKE A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks work, and emotionally bullied many into submission," that would be a SIMILE.
If I said,"Dr. Wierwille WAS A BASTARD, considering he abused women, took credit for other folks works, emotionally bullied many into submission, and caused the ruin of TWI," that would be a METAPHOR.
If i simply looked at these things and yelled at the top of my lungs,"BAAASSSTAAARRRD!!!" That would be an example of the figure of speach "HYPOCATASTASIS."
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rascal
:D
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rhino
Actually, I don't think any of those are figures of speech ...
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
I'm always glad to see your smile.
Dear Rhino, hehehe
I had the same thought but went with it anyway.
Dear Tom and Geisha779,
I hear your concerns and I will not discount what you are saying, but instead continue to consider. Right off the top of my head however, I think that my feet may get a little bloody (if that's not overstating it that is, in some parts of the world Christians deal with real blood and not just a little rebuke.) but I did not spill this blood, and it looks to me like I may have to walk through it to get to people.
I mean, really, like Vince Finnigan would mind getting shown what Dr. did to many other teachers by me borrowing the figures and the structure of my sharing from him. After all, at least I'm giving Vince due credit for his work. I'll even give him the majority of the credit if he wants it because I wouldn't even have had the knowledge without him.
(edited for grammar)
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Tom
That's very cool Jeff. I would expect no less, & I ask no more.
Tom
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JeffSjo
It still really is hard to take in when I think of the wonderful Christians that I knew in TWI, and then have to look at what went wrong in TWI.
I think that the pressure cooker situation that top leadership was required to live in because of how Dr. set the ministry up compromised them.
Now it seems that even though I knew many sincere and capable people that at a certain level, to be top leadership they had to sell out their integrity on certain issues. And because of how top leadership was trained in those circumstances they've became the worst liars (as a group) that I know of.
It seems like trying to find out what went wrong from them is like trying to pull the teeth out of a live bear.
HEY, SOMEONE GIVE ME THE PLIERS!
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waterbuffalo
Actually, no need to give VF credit for those things, imo. They're common figures that you had in middle or high school. Kids learn the first two in third grade now. But, nice to do so anyway if that's what you want to do.
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Tom
Jeff, your assessment of how hard it is to assess what was going on seems right on to me; although I think there are a lot of previous TWI leadership here that may be very into being honest with you.
Be that as it may or may be - I was never top leadership in any place - thank God - but anything you would you like to know, please ask. I did hang in there from '72 till '96 in one capacity or another
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JeffSjo
Dear Waterbuffalo,
I did borrow from Vinces outline and the punchline he used was "PIGPEN" while mine was "BAAASSSTAAARRRD." I was attempting to put in real terms what Dr. did to many others while allowing himself to be billed as the MOGFDAT. In my splinter group the leader allowed himself to be billed as "The Word in the Flesh." To me the disease is the same but the words are a little different. In both cases their handling of God's Word and their behavior seem to disqualify them for being considered as much of anything besides puffed up madmen. It pains me to realize that in both cases good people have been harmed.
Dear Tom,
I know that you're about former leadership here being into honesty and I'm glad for it because it confirms the testimony of the many victims of TWI leadership that post here. In general on this site I prefer conversations being kept out here in the broad daylight where everybody can see and learn, or critique if necessary. Thank you too.
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Mark Clarke
Wow! That's more than a little different wording. The Word in the Flesh was what Jesus himself is called. To my knowledge even VPW never went that far. The disease has progressed!
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excathedra
the word in the flesh holy crap please tell me what splinter group that was ?
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Tom
Jeff,
Mark, BTW, visited your website & blog - very interesting - you've done some nice homework - wish I had more time to talk in detail.excathedra - hello darling - big hug.
Okay, this brings to mind something. Sharing this makes me vulnerable. Please don't attack.
The scene is PFAL 77. My then wife & I are both still very much recovering from an accident in '76 in which we should have died (I mean, really. The hospital called my wife's parents, & told them to come pick up her body. They told my parents I had 1 to 3% chance of living, & that, if I didn't die, I'd live the rest of my life as a vegetable. Someone did die. Some here know the story. Many here probably engaged in a week of intercessory prayer - thank you - that's why I'm alive).
The turning point came one night when a sweet believer whom we had recently witnessed to showed up at the prayer vigil site & told the guy she was replacing that she was a brand new believer, had just been lead into speaking in tongues, & didn't know what to do. Before the fellow left, he told her to hold a picture of me & my wife in perfect health in her mind while she spoke in tongues for us. If anything other than perfect health broke into the picture, she should realize God was telling her we needed help & ask God to fix it.
Oh, this is getting longer than I intended. Many here have heard it before. Long story short. She stayed there all night by herself praying – I stayed awake all night talking to God about whether or not I had a life worth living waiting should I want it. No one told me I’d be a vegetable & look like Frankenstein if I lived, but I knew I was about as totally screwed as anybody can get & still be alive (for a brief period). To die seemed the easy alternative. Living was scary – especially like a mentally very deficient Frankenstein looking beast. But the thing about it was I was a believer. I didn’t want to die on a punk foot confession that God can’t deliver, & the next thing I know, look Jesus in the face on the tail end of my punk foot confession. But I wasn’t willing to go on, not knowing how everything got so screwed up, only to have it happen again somewhere down the line. So, I told God I’d go back & live if He’d heal me so I didn’t live my life as a freak, & if He’d teach me what happened so that I’d learn how to keep it from happening again. That was the deal between me & God. Meanwhile, the girl at the prayer vigil sees my head falling apart, & tells God to put it back together. That morning, my leadership shows at the prayer vigil before coming to the hospital to see me. The girl tells them that God showed her that I was going to die, but she asked God to heal me & he did & would. She tells them that God had a long talk with me & told them that I would tell them what God’s love had communicated to me when they came to visit.
As soon as they came into my room, I told them about God’s love just like she said. I don’t remember the specifics – actually, it was pretty much the 1st time I was solidly out of a coma for 3 days.
They asked me what I knew about deceiving spirits (I had just finished agreeing that God would teach me what had made things so screwed up), told me that my internal bleeding had stopped over the night, & that the doctors HAD to operate on my immediately or I would die. I wouldn’t do it – I wanted Dr. Weingardner (SP?) to operate on me. My mother told me I was going to die & asked me if there was anyway I would let them operate on me. I said the only way I would do that without Dr. Weingardner doing it was if Dr. Wierwille said I should & gave mom the phone # from HQ (having lived there, I knew the #). Mom came back a few minutes later with a note from VP saying that Dr. W wasn’t trained to do the kind of operation I needed, that the best people in the world to do the kind of operation I needed were at the hospital waiting to do it, having been called in from Duke University to do it, that I should believe that the grace of God was holding me more firmly than the bed I was on, let them operate, & I would wake up alive if I did.
Much longer story short like I said – read the forthcoming book.
Anyway, my wife & I, after taking care of bills, spent the rest – I mean all the rest, we were broke after that – of our insurance money to go to PFAL 77. We figured that we needed something spiritual to go on – what with the talk of deceiving spirits & all.
End of PFAL 77, VP goes into this talk of about how his life is broken bread for the Body of Christ, like that of Jesus Christ, how that is the life that Jesus Christ has for those in the church – that our lives are to be that broken bread for God’s own, like Jesus’ life was, how that’s what it is all about, &, if we don’t see that (at the end of all this PFAL 77), our eyes have got to be blinded by deceiving devil spirits. End of class – immediately followed by others bringing out a gift for the teacher – this huge 3D replica of the last supper – Jesus Christ talking about his body being bread to be broken for us, etc.
Deep, deep truth – despite the fact that you can talk to devils in any insane asylum in the country any day of the week who will tell you that they are Jesus, Mary, or Joseph. Did he live it? IMHO, sometimes – when he wasn’t being a scum bag.
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WordWolf
I do not question one word of your testimony.
I question your final sentence-the interpretation of events- as the only possibility.
IF vpw were a first-class scumbag who was all show and little substance,
and someone called who had an urgent medical need,
he would certainly advise them to trust those local doctors.
After all, that just happens to be the answer with the least work for him.
So, just that answer tells us nothing of his motives either way-
it's the answer of the genuine AND the fraud.
Similarly, if he was a charlatan who played a part, he would take the stage
and "sell" sermons on Jesus' self-sacrifice. Charlatans do that, and any good
actor could do the same. vpw DID maintain access to teachings from other
Christians all through his career, and use THEM instead of mostly his own work.
If he were a complete fraud, he could use THEIR work and sell it onstage.
To a degree, he would even convince HIMSELF for a moment- the mark of
an actor fully "in the moment."
When Christopher Reeve played Superman, there was a scene in the
first movie where he and Margo Kidder/Lois Lane fly above the city.
The actors were suspended from a wire-frame in a green-screen studio
(bluescreen actually) for the filming.
At one point, Margot's frame was breaking, and she was going to fall.
Reeve pulled her to him to support her.
Afterwards, he said it was the WRONG thing to do-his frame wasn't build to
support TWO people, and could have dropped them both.
But at that moment, he really thought he was Superman, so his instant
response was genuine to the character.
Do I think he ever needed to LIVE the talk to do what he did speaking to you
and when you saw him? No.
Could it all have been genuine? Yes.
Could it all have been a fraud? Yes.
I believe the evidence supports either conclusion.
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