I use the sociopath reference when it seems to apply also.
I'm no expert on these terms but I'm certain that a common characteristic is a complete lack of what most folks would consider a conscience, or any kind of sense of right and wrong. In such a case NO FEELINGS at all is a more accurate description than hatred.
I'm not quick to say without being certain exactly what is going on in anyone's heart. I do believe that the Lord is the only one qualified to have the final say there. Once again, I'm happy to add for the benefit of my non-christian friends that if you don't believe what I believe that I hope that you can translate my sentiments into any ethical framework that works for you, I'll hear you out anyway.
But when we look at Dr. Wierwille's actions honestly IMO it's simply a question of WHAT KIND OF INSANITY that he's guilty of. I believe that the same goes for Chris Geer and other programed automotons that Dr. groomed to continue in his steps and cover his tracks.
I used to be heartbroken over the breakup of TWI.
Now it appears to me that the breakup was ALLOWED TO HAPPEN by those in control in order to effectively hide the darkness. Kind of like it would be better for things to be split up than to have those that were involved and honest being able to get together and compare notes.
There were simply sooo many things wrong. What is galling me the most at the moment is remembering all the times that Dr. expressed some kind of sentiment concerning protecting the women. RAT BASTARD
Now I recognize that it was most often condescending to the women too. I probably should have seen a problem with that alone. But when I hear these reports of just how nasty he was I get quite steamed. #%&*$////!@#
And the loyalists of Dr.'s, yes I have compassion, understanding WHY they feel the way they do, but these are crimes against God and people. THESE CRIMES WERE HEINOUS!!!
There were simply sooo many things wrong. What is galling me the most at the moment is remembering all the times that Dr. expressed some kind of sentiment concerning protecting the women. RAT BASTARD
Now I recognize that it was most often condescending to the women too. I probably should have seen a problem with that alone. But when I hear these reports of just how nasty he was I get quite steamed. #%&*$////!@#
And the loyalists of Dr.'s, yes I have compassion, understanding WHY they feel the way they do, but these are crimes against God and people. THESE CRIMES WERE HEINOUS!!!
Ditto that! I didn't know we could use the word "bastard" I would have added it sooner than a$$!
For me it makes all the difference that the biblical reference to bastards refers to uncorrected wickedness. I don't remember the reference right now, but Brideofjc gave it to all of us in the "Grieved by the Way International" thread.
P.S. I discovered early on when I was reffering to Balaam and his azz that the automated censor at this sight would not allow that one even innocently, o.k. with me.
I know some posters have said they believe his evil deeds proceeded from a hatred
(or possibly fear-for hatred often springs from fear) of women.
I disagree. (Of course, I could be wrong.) I think that he had a lot of deadness in his heart-
towards other people. He felt a whole lot of NOTHING to them.
I agree with you, but would just add that what is more telling to me than anything--was the deadness in his heart toward God, which allowed him to feel nothing toward people. His public and private teaching never promoted Godliness. He was an abuser. A false teacher and a very dangerous man. Not only did he damage
people then--he fooled many into believing they are saved. That is the worst of all of this--to destroy someones life is horrible-utterly horrible--he was not satisfied with that--he went after, and won over many an eternity.
Please don't get me wrong, many were saved before they got involved, and some maybe while in TWI, but it takes true Godly repentence and a conviction of sin to be saved. God is able in any situation to make that happen. But, there is no quick formula--a few "Other Spirit" Lo Shantas and salvation.
What is so very telling to me about Victor Paul Wierwille is that God left him alone. He didn't correct him, he let him bury himself up to his neck and wallow there.
That is the worst thing that can happen--for God to just leave you to it. He died in his sins--he died never knowing God.
I am really glad that you post more now, I always seem to get something good out of your posts, thank you.
It seems to me that Dr. Wierwille had many opportunities to turn from his wickedness. Just DWBH's posts alone about confronting Dr. with the abuse that was starting to come to light in the ministries councelling efforts seems like God was at work to help Dr. turn. It seems to me that Dr. was incapable and/or unwilling to change.
In most cases like that IMO God doesn't have many options besides letting the offender go head-long into the mud, so-to-speak. Not that it's good to put God in any kind of box in our thinking, let me say that God CAN let someone continue in error and therebye be a BASTARD biblically speaking. It seems to me that in Dr.'s case the SHOE FITS.
What purpose does it serve to try to hold on to "the good stuff" when you can't bear to look at the bad, at best the splinters are engaging in some kind of unrealistic wishful thinking, and continuing the WHITEWASH/ DECEPTION.
And even what many consider "the good stuff" was wrong.
For example:
*He taught me more about the bible than I ever heard before.
But much of what he taught has been shown to be bogus.
*He said, "You're going to heaven and all hell can not stop you from getting there."
Jesus never said anything about going to heaven. He promised God's Kingdom on earth.
*He said, "If you compromise one iota on God's Word you are dead people."
But often what he considered "compromising on God's Word" was really questioning his doctrines.
*I heard many stories of the Power of God by way of the Holy Spirit living in him.
Even Jesus said there could be counterfeit signs and wonders. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" and do many mighty works in his name will enter the Kingdom.
*I heard many stories about how being tight with him made someone more spiritual somehow, like some kind of special secret knowledge or something.
Being tight with a person does nothing. It was that attitude of "special secret knowledge" that attracted many people. But this is little more than gnosticism in a "Christian" guise.
I know what you are saying about many considering the good stuff (so-called) being wrong. Many things that I have stood on and based my life on for years up to a few months ago I recognize now as hogwash.
There are some things that were taught by TWI however that I don't ever expect be be chased off however. But I do my best to dance this dance honestly. It looks to me now that TWI RUINED many of the things that I now consider to be thew good stuff in terms of corrupt practices and the disease that ruined things ran deap into the way tree and also that the seeds of TWI's ruin were present in Dr. Wierwille's heart at the very beginning of TWI.
A common way that I refer to the good stuff (IMO) is referring to "The best of PFAL. But even though it would be simpler to throw the whole thing into the scrap heap of my mind and wait for thew promised garbage fire I will continue to do my best to honestly evaluate these things and take care of the doctrinal issues one at a time.
IMO most of the things that I refer to as "THE BEST OF PFAL" Dr. just took from other men and billed it as his own work. Wierwille loyalists will point out that he admitted to using other people's works, but I will then point out that he was careful to keep all the credit and the vainglory that he obviously desired for his own. And in the end IMO the control freak side of his personality was at the root of much of the destruction that TWI caused and was also among the worst traits that his most committed disciples learned from him. And this control freak stuff continues to live on under the thin veneer of "coordinating and covering."
Even though VPW plagiarized a lot of other people's stuff, we still have to consider, were the people he stole from right in the first place? What I've had to do is reevaluate everything by reading and studying other viewpoints and weighing the evidence. But it took "scrapping" PFAL and starting from scratch, because the whole structure of the class was flawed. I had to get in the habit of reading the Bible as if I'd never took any classes, which isn't always easy. But it's necessary because so much of our "PFAL Peripheral Vision" can color our perception and block our understanding of simple things. When I re-encountered certain things I had first learned from PFAL (e.g., salavation by grace, the trinity stuff, and the state of the dead) it was a "bonus" but they were comparatively few. As some one once put it, the important thing is not "who has the truth" but "what IS the truth."
Even though VPW plagiarized a lot of other people's stuff, we still have to consider, were the people he stole from right in the first place?
That's a valid question Mark...and if I might add...considering the moral depravity of Vic Wierwille, he had zero credibilty in terms of his own ability to know what was right from what was wrong...he was a true sociopath.
by the way...you DO know that Vic admitted to having fondled his daughter's breasts when they were 12 years old don't you?
Picking on poor old "Dr." Wierwille?...he wasn't a doctor...
What is so very telling to me about Victor Paul Wierwille is that God left him alone. He didn't correct him, he let him bury himself up to his neck and wallow there.
God doesn't violate free will, right?
Like Balaam and his mule, one only accepts correction when one becomes open to it... which poses more serious questions about that man's ministry.
And he was only "poor" on the books for the IRS. Both farms -HQ and the Kipp farm, Gunnison, Emporia, Rome City, a motorcoach, a plane, multiple motorcycles...
So he wasn't poor or a doctor. That only leaves "old."
It seems to me that Dr. Wierwille had many opportunities to turn from his wickedness. Just DWBH's posts alone about confronting Dr. with the abuse that was starting to come to light in the ministries councelling efforts seems like God was at work to help Dr. turn. It seems to me that Dr. was incapable and/or unwilling to change.
In most cases like that IMO God doesn't have many options besides letting the offender go head-long into the mud, so-to-speak. Not that it's good to put God in any kind of box in our thinking, let me say that God CAN let someone continue in error and therebye be a BASTARD biblically speaking. It seems to me that in Dr.'s case the SHOE FITS.
I have to imagine that wierwille had many more situations present themselves wherein he was given the opportunity to turn from his wickedness...
That's a valid question Mark...and if I might add...considering the moral depravity of Vic Wierwille, he had zero credibilty in terms of his own ability to know what was right from what was wrong...he was a true sociopath.
Good point. Some have suggested that he chose to adopt viewpoints and doctrines that were most likely to be controversial.
by the way...you DO know that Vic admitted to having fondled his daughter's breasts when they were 12 years old don't you?
I read that on one of the other threads recently. I hadn''t known about it before that. I wonder how his daughters feel about that now?
Picking on poor old "Dr." Wierwille?...he wasn't a doctor...
Only if you count "degree mill" doctorates. I've read about Pike's Peak Seminary.
Even though VPW plagiarized a lot of other people's stuff, we still have to consider, were the people he stole from right in the first place? What I've had to do is reevaluate everything by reading and studying other viewpoints and weighing the evidence. But it took "scrapping" PFAL and starting from scratch, because the whole structure of the class was flawed. I had to get in the habit of reading the Bible as if I'd never took any classes, which isn't always easy. But it's necessary because so much of our "PFAL Peripheral Vision" can color our perception and block our understanding of simple things. When I re-encountered certain things I had first learned from PFAL (e.g., salavation by grace, the trinity stuff, and the state of the dead) it was a "bonus" but they were comparatively few. As some one once put it, the important thing is not "who has the truth" but "what IS the truth."
Amen. That summer of 1987 and through '88 I sat down with all the books and reread them. I sat with the verses (especially the ones used in the later books) with a dictionary and looked up every word I was unsure about, especially when the meaning was taken to be something different than was commonly understood. What an eye-opener for someone who was cynical to begin with.
When someone says, "Don't take my word for it." Oftentimes that's not a challenge as much as they're saying it because people tend to believe people who allude to being open to challenge.
As I told my friend who has a real doctorate in New Testament Studies from Princeton: There's nothing that's too sacred to question. He agreed.
Ya'll ever think about how many people would have died (I know some did after the fact) but during that time period of the 70's and 80's.....people were looking for something. They got it. Might not have been the best..but it may have kept them alive till today. He plagerized, ect., but at least some of us lived to know it.
Hi Jeff. You asked, "Is their any other input on this TWI standard of likening people who pick on Dr. Wierwille to carrion eaters?"
You also said, "My premise is simply this, truth and conscience demands that TWI leadership abuse needs to be yelled from the rooftops."
Yes, you've had quite a change of opinion, & you're obviously emotional about it. That's not a slam. TWI put emotions on the backburner as, at best, suspect. I'm not doing that. Emotions are indicators of the inner workings of your being. They ought to be given at least that much respect, acknowledged, their sources sought for, & then reconciled with the broader picture of what you are all about. In the perspectives of many Native Americans, Hawk is a messenger of wisdom and peace because, flying high, Hawk tells us not to get caught in the emotions of the moment, but to see the larger picture. I use the Native American symbol of Hawk because I think you need a different perspective than TWI to relate to.
Your anger is righteous, and the emotions that you're high & rough riding on are - well, the roller coaster ride's not over. Your realization of the evil in VP's life impacts you because of your personal investment in what you thought he was & also the hold that still has on people you love. That's understandable. But there are worse evils - other, deeper carrion, if you will, that you can eat. How far down do you wish to peel the onion? How long do you want to yell about carrion from your rooftop. As I said, there is smellier carrion out there. You do tend to become what you eat. I think it is the Word we are supposed to be yelling from the rooftops. Those you love who have been infected with the poison of adulating VP were also told to respect the Word - while, at the same time being blinded to the true Word, Jesus Christ, by the vail VP put over their eyes. But when they look to the Lord, the vail will be taken away by Jesus Christ; therefore, it is incumbent upon us to live the Word. It is a difficult transition for those who thought TWI was the way. But the true Way rings true. Listen. He speaks. If you listen, you will hear his voice.
If you look at darkness, darkness leads you. But if you walk in the light, not only will you see the darkness, but you will see how to dispell it. Those you love need to see light in their dark place, so they can see the way out.
Hawk, flying high, draws a line in your life. On the other side of the line, your life will change & all things will be higher in quality. It is a high calling.
Ya'll ever think about how many people would have died (I know some did after the fact) but during that time period of the 70's and 80's.....people were looking for something. They got it. Might not have been the best..but it may have kept them alive till today. He plagerized, ect., but at least some of us lived to know it.
What kept those people from dying was God and His Word. Whatever little truth VPW or other Way teachers might have had, mixed with the crap, was enough to give people something to hold onto, not because of what VP taught but IN SPITE OF it. Fortunately God does not limit Himself to only working in those who have had The Class.
"I'd be dead today if not for Dr. Wierwille/PFAL."
Through the years, even long before GSC, I have heard people use variations of this same phrase on so many occasions that it's difficult to estimate the number.
Does anyone know where this phrase or line of thinking may have originated?
Surely hundreds(maybe thousands) of people did not arrive at this "conclusion" all by themselves.
Is it in a teaching, a song, a magazine article ?
Where did this start?
For one or two people to think this is expected, but hundreds is bizarre.
Remember-----We're talking about a cult being attributed this virtue.
"I'd be dead today if not for Dr. Wierwille/PFAL."
Through the years, even long before GSC, I have heard people use variations of this same phrase on so many occasions that it's difficult to estimate the number.
Does anyone know where this phrase or line of thinking may have originated?
I imagine it popped up in some teachings somewhere ... but it seems a common response of defensiveness. This "Father in the word" is found out to have done lotsa bad stuff ... some that were so enamored/entwined for so long can hardly just throw off that emotional attachment.
And of course there is the syndrome of the abused tending to protect the abuser. I believe anyone really seeking help would have found it ... and maybe some within TWI were still functioning as helpers. But as I see it, they would have functioned in that capacity more efficiently in other ministries, or even on their own.
Could VP's ability to hook people into his cult ... somehow have attracted people that would have stayed lost .... and then those people's lives were improved by the good folks that were also trapped in the cult?
It makes more sense to me that VP harmed other ministries (as WW pointed out), and was a parasite that killed or harmed his hosts. People that were helped, were really getting the ministry of other men, but VP stamped his name on everything. It was degraded by VP .. not improved. He drove it right into the ground. (literally ... he lived off their biblical work, till he went into the ground himself)
I do wonder if it was not just his physical abuse of himself (alcohol, tobacco) that led to his early demise, but his moral abuses as well. But even at the end, he was putting blame on others ...
Yes, I remember hearing that long before the evils were widely known. Early '70s sounds about right. That's when a lot of hippies who were doing drugs got involved.
Could VP's ability to hook people into his cult ... somehow have attracted people that would have stayed lost .... and then those people's lives were improved by the good folks that were also trapped in the cult?
Sure. Just like people who were looking for God have sometimes been "blessed" by people in the Roman Catholic Church or other "mainstream" religions. God has used many things that were meant by people for evil to bring about his ultimate good. Joseph being sold into Egypt comes to mind.
It makes more sense to me that VP harmed other ministries (as WW pointed out), and was a parasite that killed or harmed his hosts. People that were helped, were really getting the ministry of other men, but VP stamped his name on everything. It was degraded by VP .. not improved. He drove it right into the ground. (literally ... he lived off their biblical work, till he went into the ground himself)
I'd say people that were helped were getting it from God more than from another man or ministry.
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JeffSjo
Well said everyone,
I use the sociopath reference when it seems to apply also.
I'm no expert on these terms but I'm certain that a common characteristic is a complete lack of what most folks would consider a conscience, or any kind of sense of right and wrong. In such a case NO FEELINGS at all is a more accurate description than hatred.
I'm not quick to say without being certain exactly what is going on in anyone's heart. I do believe that the Lord is the only one qualified to have the final say there. Once again, I'm happy to add for the benefit of my non-christian friends that if you don't believe what I believe that I hope that you can translate my sentiments into any ethical framework that works for you, I'll hear you out anyway.
But when we look at Dr. Wierwille's actions honestly IMO it's simply a question of WHAT KIND OF INSANITY that he's guilty of. I believe that the same goes for Chris Geer and other programed automotons that Dr. groomed to continue in his steps and cover his tracks.
I used to be heartbroken over the breakup of TWI.
Now it appears to me that the breakup was ALLOWED TO HAPPEN by those in control in order to effectively hide the darkness. Kind of like it would be better for things to be split up than to have those that were involved and honest being able to get together and compare notes.
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JeffSjo
There were simply sooo many things wrong. What is galling me the most at the moment is remembering all the times that Dr. expressed some kind of sentiment concerning protecting the women. RAT BASTARD
Now I recognize that it was most often condescending to the women too. I probably should have seen a problem with that alone. But when I hear these reports of just how nasty he was I get quite steamed. #%&*$////!@#
And the loyalists of Dr.'s, yes I have compassion, understanding WHY they feel the way they do, but these are crimes against God and people. THESE CRIMES WERE HEINOUS!!!
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cheranne
Ditto that! I didn't know we could use the word "bastard" I would have added it sooner than a$$!
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JeffSjo
Dear Oklahoma City WOW 78,
For me it makes all the difference that the biblical reference to bastards refers to uncorrected wickedness. I don't remember the reference right now, but Brideofjc gave it to all of us in the "Grieved by the Way International" thread.
P.S. I discovered early on when I was reffering to Balaam and his azz that the automated censor at this sight would not allow that one even innocently, o.k. with me.
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geisha779
I agree with you, but would just add that what is more telling to me than anything--was the deadness in his heart toward God, which allowed him to feel nothing toward people. His public and private teaching never promoted Godliness. He was an abuser. A false teacher and a very dangerous man. Not only did he damage
people then--he fooled many into believing they are saved. That is the worst of all of this--to destroy someones life is horrible-utterly horrible--he was not satisfied with that--he went after, and won over many an eternity.
Please don't get me wrong, many were saved before they got involved, and some maybe while in TWI, but it takes true Godly repentence and a conviction of sin to be saved. God is able in any situation to make that happen. But, there is no quick formula--a few "Other Spirit" Lo Shantas and salvation.
What is so very telling to me about Victor Paul Wierwille is that God left him alone. He didn't correct him, he let him bury himself up to his neck and wallow there.
That is the worst thing that can happen--for God to just leave you to it. He died in his sins--he died never knowing God.
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JeffSjo
Dear Geisha779,
I am really glad that you post more now, I always seem to get something good out of your posts, thank you.
It seems to me that Dr. Wierwille had many opportunities to turn from his wickedness. Just DWBH's posts alone about confronting Dr. with the abuse that was starting to come to light in the ministries councelling efforts seems like God was at work to help Dr. turn. It seems to me that Dr. was incapable and/or unwilling to change.
In most cases like that IMO God doesn't have many options besides letting the offender go head-long into the mud, so-to-speak. Not that it's good to put God in any kind of box in our thinking, let me say that God CAN let someone continue in error and therebye be a BASTARD biblically speaking. It seems to me that in Dr.'s case the SHOE FITS.
(edited for clarity)
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Mark Clarke
And even what many consider "the good stuff" was wrong.
For example:
*He taught me more about the bible than I ever heard before.
But much of what he taught has been shown to be bogus.
*He said, "You're going to heaven and all hell can not stop you from getting there."
Jesus never said anything about going to heaven. He promised God's Kingdom on earth.
*He said, "If you compromise one iota on God's Word you are dead people."
But often what he considered "compromising on God's Word" was really questioning his doctrines.
*I heard many stories of the Power of God by way of the Holy Spirit living in him.
Even Jesus said there could be counterfeit signs and wonders. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" and do many mighty works in his name will enter the Kingdom.
*I heard many stories about how being tight with him made someone more spiritual somehow, like some kind of special secret knowledge or something.
Being tight with a person does nothing. It was that attitude of "special secret knowledge" that attracted many people. But this is little more than gnosticism in a "Christian" guise.
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JeffSjo
Dear Mark Clarke,
I know what you are saying about many considering the good stuff (so-called) being wrong. Many things that I have stood on and based my life on for years up to a few months ago I recognize now as hogwash.
There are some things that were taught by TWI however that I don't ever expect be be chased off however. But I do my best to dance this dance honestly. It looks to me now that TWI RUINED many of the things that I now consider to be thew good stuff in terms of corrupt practices and the disease that ruined things ran deap into the way tree and also that the seeds of TWI's ruin were present in Dr. Wierwille's heart at the very beginning of TWI.
A common way that I refer to the good stuff (IMO) is referring to "The best of PFAL. But even though it would be simpler to throw the whole thing into the scrap heap of my mind and wait for thew promised garbage fire I will continue to do my best to honestly evaluate these things and take care of the doctrinal issues one at a time.
IMO most of the things that I refer to as "THE BEST OF PFAL" Dr. just took from other men and billed it as his own work. Wierwille loyalists will point out that he admitted to using other people's works, but I will then point out that he was careful to keep all the credit and the vainglory that he obviously desired for his own. And in the end IMO the control freak side of his personality was at the root of much of the destruction that TWI caused and was also among the worst traits that his most committed disciples learned from him. And this control freak stuff continues to live on under the thin veneer of "coordinating and covering."
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Mark Clarke
Jeff,
Even though VPW plagiarized a lot of other people's stuff, we still have to consider, were the people he stole from right in the first place? What I've had to do is reevaluate everything by reading and studying other viewpoints and weighing the evidence. But it took "scrapping" PFAL and starting from scratch, because the whole structure of the class was flawed. I had to get in the habit of reading the Bible as if I'd never took any classes, which isn't always easy. But it's necessary because so much of our "PFAL Peripheral Vision" can color our perception and block our understanding of simple things. When I re-encountered certain things I had first learned from PFAL (e.g., salavation by grace, the trinity stuff, and the state of the dead) it was a "bonus" but they were comparatively few. As some one once put it, the important thing is not "who has the truth" but "what IS the truth."
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GrouchoMarxJr
That's a valid question Mark...and if I might add...considering the moral depravity of Vic Wierwille, he had zero credibilty in terms of his own ability to know what was right from what was wrong...he was a true sociopath.
by the way...you DO know that Vic admitted to having fondled his daughter's breasts when they were 12 years old don't you?
Picking on poor old "Dr." Wierwille?...he wasn't a doctor...
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Rocky
God doesn't violate free will, right?
Like Balaam and his mule, one only accepts correction when one becomes open to it... which poses more serious questions about that man's ministry.
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doojable
And he was only "poor" on the books for the IRS. Both farms -HQ and the Kipp farm, Gunnison, Emporia, Rome City, a motorcoach, a plane, multiple motorcycles...
So he wasn't poor or a doctor. That only leaves "old."
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Rocky
I have to imagine that wierwille had many more situations present themselves wherein he was given the opportunity to turn from his wickedness...
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Mark Clarke
Good point. Some have suggested that he chose to adopt viewpoints and doctrines that were most likely to be controversial.
I read that on one of the other threads recently. I hadn''t known about it before that. I wonder how his daughters feel about that now?
Only if you count "degree mill" doctorates. I've read about Pike's Peak Seminary.
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coolchef
i would rather have dr suesse minister to me than ole"dr" corn field vic
great post all of you
thanks
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Tzaia
Amen. That summer of 1987 and through '88 I sat down with all the books and reread them. I sat with the verses (especially the ones used in the later books) with a dictionary and looked up every word I was unsure about, especially when the meaning was taken to be something different than was commonly understood. What an eye-opener for someone who was cynical to begin with.
When someone says, "Don't take my word for it." Oftentimes that's not a challenge as much as they're saying it because people tend to believe people who allude to being open to challenge.
As I told my friend who has a real doctorate in New Testament Studies from Princeton: There's nothing that's too sacred to question. He agreed.
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sogwap51
Ya'll ever think about how many people would have died (I know some did after the fact) but during that time period of the 70's and 80's.....people were looking for something. They got it. Might not have been the best..but it may have kept them alive till today. He plagerized, ect., but at least some of us lived to know it.
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Tom
Hi Jeff. You asked, "Is their any other input on this TWI standard of likening people who pick on Dr. Wierwille to carrion eaters?"
You also said, "My premise is simply this, truth and conscience demands that TWI leadership abuse needs to be yelled from the rooftops."
Yes, you've had quite a change of opinion, & you're obviously emotional about it. That's not a slam. TWI put emotions on the backburner as, at best, suspect. I'm not doing that. Emotions are indicators of the inner workings of your being. They ought to be given at least that much respect, acknowledged, their sources sought for, & then reconciled with the broader picture of what you are all about. In the perspectives of many Native Americans, Hawk is a messenger of wisdom and peace because, flying high, Hawk tells us not to get caught in the emotions of the moment, but to see the larger picture. I use the Native American symbol of Hawk because I think you need a different perspective than TWI to relate to.
Your anger is righteous, and the emotions that you're high & rough riding on are - well, the roller coaster ride's not over. Your realization of the evil in VP's life impacts you because of your personal investment in what you thought he was & also the hold that still has on people you love. That's understandable. But there are worse evils - other, deeper carrion, if you will, that you can eat. How far down do you wish to peel the onion? How long do you want to yell about carrion from your rooftop. As I said, there is smellier carrion out there. You do tend to become what you eat. I think it is the Word we are supposed to be yelling from the rooftops. Those you love who have been infected with the poison of adulating VP were also told to respect the Word - while, at the same time being blinded to the true Word, Jesus Christ, by the vail VP put over their eyes. But when they look to the Lord, the vail will be taken away by Jesus Christ; therefore, it is incumbent upon us to live the Word. It is a difficult transition for those who thought TWI was the way. But the true Way rings true. Listen. He speaks. If you listen, you will hear his voice.
If you look at darkness, darkness leads you. But if you walk in the light, not only will you see the darkness, but you will see how to dispell it. Those you love need to see light in their dark place, so they can see the way out.
Hawk, flying high, draws a line in your life. On the other side of the line, your life will change & all things will be higher in quality. It is a high calling.
Ride higher, my brother.
Tom
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Mark Clarke
What kept those people from dying was God and His Word. Whatever little truth VPW or other Way teachers might have had, mixed with the crap, was enough to give people something to hold onto, not because of what VP taught but IN SPITE OF it. Fortunately God does not limit Himself to only working in those who have had The Class.
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WordWolf
As if God couldn't have gotten things done without twi!
If vpw hadn't choked and throttled down the ministries of BG Leonard
(who became MUCH more quiet after his work was STOLEN by vpw),
J1m D00p, St3ve H33fn3r, Fugit (vpw diverted thriving ministries that
were ALREADY making the news-that's how he heard about them in the
first place-and turned them from primarily promoting God into primarily
promoting twi, pfal, etc)
and so on.....
One might be just as ready to say "If not for vpw and twi, the work they
were already doing would have proceeded unimpeded, and so he did the
devil's work by turning them from "best" to "good."
(To use his OWN terminology.)
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waysider
"I'd be dead today if not for Dr. Wierwille/PFAL."
Through the years, even long before GSC, I have heard people use variations of this same phrase on so many occasions that it's difficult to estimate the number.
Does anyone know where this phrase or line of thinking may have originated?
Surely hundreds(maybe thousands) of people did not arrive at this "conclusion" all by themselves.
Is it in a teaching, a song, a magazine article ?
Where did this start?
For one or two people to think this is expected, but hundreds is bizarre.
Remember-----We're talking about a cult being attributed this virtue.
Anyone know?
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rhino
I imagine it popped up in some teachings somewhere ... but it seems a common response of defensiveness. This "Father in the word" is found out to have done lotsa bad stuff ... some that were so enamored/entwined for so long can hardly just throw off that emotional attachment.
And of course there is the syndrome of the abused tending to protect the abuser. I believe anyone really seeking help would have found it ... and maybe some within TWI were still functioning as helpers. But as I see it, they would have functioned in that capacity more efficiently in other ministries, or even on their own.
Could VP's ability to hook people into his cult ... somehow have attracted people that would have stayed lost .... and then those people's lives were improved by the good folks that were also trapped in the cult?
It makes more sense to me that VP harmed other ministries (as WW pointed out), and was a parasite that killed or harmed his hosts. People that were helped, were really getting the ministry of other men, but VP stamped his name on everything. It was degraded by VP .. not improved. He drove it right into the ground. (literally ... he lived off their biblical work, till he went into the ground himself)
I do wonder if it was not just his physical abuse of himself (alcohol, tobacco) that led to his early demise, but his moral abuses as well. But even at the end, he was putting blame on others ...
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waysider
Rhino
While I agree with the point you are making, I am still curious if this expression came from a specific source.
I think the earliest I can recall hearing it was about 1972 or 1973.
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Mark Clarke
Yes, I remember hearing that long before the evils were widely known. Early '70s sounds about right. That's when a lot of hippies who were doing drugs got involved.
Sure. Just like people who were looking for God have sometimes been "blessed" by people in the Roman Catholic Church or other "mainstream" religions. God has used many things that were meant by people for evil to bring about his ultimate good. Joseph being sold into Egypt comes to mind.
I'd say people that were helped were getting it from God more than from another man or ministry.
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