I think that you are speaking with a forked tongue Bumpy.
I wonder if you know what you are doing, but I'm leaning towards thinking that you do.
Maybe if you posted something about who you are and why you are the way that you are I would be more settled in terms of understanding where you are coming from. I mean another thread Bumpy, maybe something from you in the "My Story" section.
Or if you have nothing to contribute to this thread, I think it should get back on track Bumpy.
I will ignore your next post to give it a chance of continuing on in a good direction.
I think that you are speaking with a forked tongue Bumpy.
I wonder if you know what you are doing, but I'm leaning towards thinking that you do.
Maybe if you posted something about who you are and why you are the way that you are I would be more settled in terms of understanding where you are coming from.
Or if you have nothing to contribute to this thread, I think it should get back on track Bumpy.
I will ignore your next post to give it a chance of continuing on in a good direction.
Jeff, again no forked tung, I just thought you could possibly make history here at gs with a little razzle dazzle of believing = receiving and in the process, you know become a famous kind of guy...Sort of like Steve Martin!! :unsure:
HEY! Ignore my next post, but don't blame me if you missed your BIG chance!!
I never knew Vic, nor had any experiences in TWI, but what I've read is enough to tell me this man truly was the lowest of the low. I can only pray that God has mercy on his soul. It worries me, about Steph and her family, and at the same time it makes me incredibly angry when I read the things Wierwille did and said. As I've stated before, Steph and I have talked about our religious differences before; and when we talk about it, she gets arrogant, completely unlike her. She also asked me where I was getting my information about Vic because I blatantly told her my extremely low opinion of him, and she just said in a half-sarcastic tone, "Uhhhhhh...yeeeaaahhh...don't go to those sites. All the stuff they say is bull$h!t" I said "But Steph, all claims, whether true or false, have a basis in truth." I asked if she's actually looked at the sites and she told me she hadn't, that she doesn't need to because she knows the truth. And that is when she told me that her mom knew Wierwille, and then said he was a great man. I was astonished. It's amazing what this man and his organization have done to people's minds. Why should we all keep silent for the sake of the poor believers who are offended? More information needs to be released, and more people need to speak out and make known TWI and what it has done to people.
So if I am a "carrion-eater," so be it.
At the time I was still drinking koolaide, I had a boyfriend (also in TWI), who proclaimed to me that TWI was effed up. I arrogantly chastised him for going to GSC and told him "Of course you're going to hear negative!!" Two weeks later, my eyes were opened, and I started planning my exit. I ended up at GSC myself, and started posting while I was still in. God worked a lot of things in my heart. I'm better than ever right now, and it's been 5 1/2 years since I left TWI.
I didn't give up on God; I gave up on an organization. Wayfers have a hard time separating their ministry from God. It's an idolatrous ploy.
I hadn't heard that one! Is there a thread or a link around here that deals with that?
As for "criticizing the dead" -- If his followers didn't keep denying the truth and lauding him to people who don't know any better, then it wouldn't be necessary to keep talking about it. But like GrouchoMarxJr, each new revelation about him sickens me even more.
Hi Mark...I'm not sure when this was first mentioned...Wierwille himself admitted to the corps during corps week that he taught his daughters what men might expect from them (by "fondling" them)...when they were about 12 years old....DWBH, Excathedra and a few others know more about this than I do...
Today, if a father admitted to an audience that he had done such things to his own daughters, he would be locked up in jail...
Hi Mark...I'm not sure when this was first mentioned...Wierwille himself admitted to the corps during corps week that he taught his daughters what men might expect from them (by "fondling" them)...when they were about 12 years old....DWBH, Excathedra and a few others know more about this than I do...
Today, if a father admitted to an audience that he had done such things to his own daughters, he would be locked up in jail...
Dear Groucho,
This is a new one for me.
OMG
The insanity just gets worse and worse the longer that I consider the matter.
This is clearly a testimony to the nasty little crowd control techniques that Dr. Wierwille employed that he ran such a tight ship that this sort of garbage was even openly shared.
I think that for the first time I am truly happy that TWI broke-up and/or fell apart. Even though the trash fire worthy garbage doctrines keep plugging along to some extent. BLECH!
She also asked me where I was getting my information about Vic because ... she just said in a half-sarcastic tone, "Uhhhhhh...yeeeaaahhh...don't go to those sites. All the stuff they say is bull$h!t" I said "But Steph, all claims, whether true or false, have a basis in truth."
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the lawsuit papers, even print off the "final judgment" and show Steff. (You could download it to your computer and email it as an attachment.). That's a document of public record - not just some stuff posted by who-knows? on a website. Courts are not easily deceived and searching questions were asked. That judgment relates to some preliminary findings of the court.
As a result of the court's findings, TWI settled the lawsuits before going to court for a full hearing, because they couldn't bear any more of their dirty laundry to be hung out in public.
Sometimes court proceedings are settled prior to trial as a matter of commercial expedency - it's cheaper to pay up or apologize or whatever is required, than to take a hit of any more costs against you, even if you are "right" and the other party is "wrong".
Sometimes a settlement is made because the evidence one way or the other is simply too much to resist and a court would be bound to find against you.
In these proceedings, the latter applies. The settlement was made because the evidence produced to that point was so damning that TWI couldn't do damage-control any longer. They got rid of the obvious problem (LCM) but they still haven't dealt with the less obvious problem (those who were in the know but are with TWI, like Rosalie Rivenbark).
If exposing LCM and RFR is picking on VPW then so be it. The organization is what VPW taught it to be.
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the lawsuit papers, even print off the "final judgment" and show Steff. (You could download it to your computer and email it as an attachment.). That's a document of public record - not just some stuff posted by who-knows? on a website. Courts are not easily deceived and searching questions were asked. That judgment relates to some preliminary findings of the court.
I'm not saying you should or should not do this but if you do, you might want to also include Dr. Wierwille's death certificate that states his cause of death as being cancer. That's a huge deal in TWI doctrine. Wierwille taught, in his "advanced class', that cancer is devil possession. So there you have the ultimate dilemma, either we followed the teachings of a man who was possessed or he was wrong about the spirit thing. If he was wrong about that, what else was he wrong about?
I was doing some reading earlier, and I read something by St. Isaac the Syrian (look him up, great guy) and as I read it Wierwille and what I've read about him immediately popped into my head. Just thought I'd share it with you all.
"'The world' is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them the passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure which comes from sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead.... Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead: for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it."
~ The Ascetical Homilies of St. Isaac the Syrian
I thought this was really creepy how descriptive this is of Wierwille.
I was doing some reading earlier, and I read something by St. Isaac the Syrian (look him up, great guy) and as I read it Wierwille and what I've read about him immediately popped into my head. Just thought I'd share it with you all.
"'The world' is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them the passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure which comes from sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead.... Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead: for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it."
~ The Ascetical Homilies of St. Isaac the Syrian
I thought this was really creepy how descriptive this is of Wierwille.
Brushstroke -- at your age you are MUCH more perceptive than I was in my lifetime.
Keep on thinking the way you are. It'll save future heartache with Steph.
Waysider is 100% correct. Docvic died of cancer, and he ALWAYS taught that cancer was caused by a devil spirit inhabiting the body of the person afflicted. Well --- guess which category that puts him in, eh?????? He condemns himself by his own teachings, yet (on the other hand) expects folks to listen to everything he had to say about the bible.
I don't know this for a fact (perhaps others can chime in here), but I have heard that the last ROA he was at, he had oxygen tanks ABUNDANTLY available to him, so he could keep on breathing.
Here's a so called MOG who taught *Believing equals Receiving*, and *Cancer is a Devil Spirit Possession*, succumbing to the *Devil Spirit possessing him*, and UNABLE to utilize his own teaching of Believing, to produce the deliverance for himself, that he mandated that others should do for their own deliverance.
Mention this to Stephanie, tell her it's ALL documented, and watch the relationship disappear.
If she's die-hard twi ---- She won't take kindly to this here.
...But since coming to the Greasespot I've heard a different side of the story, one that includes rape, sexual manipulation and abuse, intimidation by Dr. Wierwille and his top leadership, a very deliberate cover-up of these things that apparently was spearheaded by LCM and Chris Geer, suicide, broken men and women among many of your friends, pimping out wonderful young women who deserved so, so much better, legal documentation where Dr. Wierwille admitted to "sexual ministering" to a young woman, etc. etc. etc.
My premise is simply this, truth and conscience demands that TWI leadership abuse needs to be yelled from the rooftops.
I believe that the whole "carcass eating thing" is an emotional manipulation that was devised by TWI leadership to cover their arsses. I believe that I need to say it like it was for the benefit of many, (doubtlessly) many victims to care for their heart as best as possible...
Is their any other input on this TWI standard of likening people who pick on Dr. Wierwille to carrion eaters?
I agree with you!
It just may be God is behind the rain of criticism on vp. Read about the consequences of disobedience in Deuteronomy 28 and especially the attendant slam to one's reputation in verse 37, You shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people…NASB .And if that's just out-dated dispensational sentiment for some folks, try I Corinthians 5:1 on for size, It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist among the Gentiles…NASB . Think about the big picture surrounding this verse. Some say even going by the pagan standards of that culture, Corinth was so morally corrupt that its very name became synonymous with debauchery and moral depravity – to "corinthianize" meant to participate in gross immorality. And in that context, Paul said "This sin is so vile even your pagan neighbors are grossed out."
vp was a man without scruples. His "ethics" took hypocrisy to new heights. He brought all this upon himself. TWI is a cult – based on the personality of vp. It was always about him! I think the reason he promoted "the absent Christ" was to shift the focus on himself. He loved being referred to as "our father in the Word." He was a prolific plagiarist who gloried in the achievements of others by stamping his name all over it. He'd hawk his teaching the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century bu11$hi+, relished in the adulation - eating it up like a pig loving slop every time folks would introduce him as the man of God for this day and time.
The "absent Christ" pronounced a severe judgment on religious hypocrites who usurp the authority of God:
Matthew 15:12-14 NASB
12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"
13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
14 "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
And that makes me think of Gamaliel's advice in
Acts 5:38, 39 NASB
38 "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
What makes you think God was ever behind vp? Rather…what if God is behind the plague consuming vp's reputation. Perhaps it has been His invisible hand uncorking the "lock boxes" of vp's victims.
Today I had a very interesting discussion that may relate to some folks here. It was with another Christian who fellowship's with another church I used to associate with. things didn't go so well for me their, but this man and I have been working together for a week or so and it's pleasant to discuss things with him. I just make sure that I don't criticize, and he doesn't ask about anything that he really doesn't want to hear. So far so good.
He brought up that on board a ship on the high seas it was not permissable to get in the captains face, so to speak.
I pointed out from the scripture and my own reasoning that no man is above criticism IN THE CHURCH, except the one true high priest, Jesus Christ himself. All others are fair game the way I see it. Especially when lives are being ruined. This applies to a small degree to my experience in this church; small, smaller, smallest even when compared to TWI.
I'm certain that this type of analogy was used to try to silence just criticism and reproof in TWI. "Dr. was the captain of the ship and we must keep military discipline", they said.
This lifestyle is neccessary on a ship, but the discipline will not keep in place in any navy if the captain of the ship is drugging and raping his men.
To me it is appropriate and neccessary to say clearly that Dr. Wierwille was NOT THE HIGH PRIEST. Even Paul used a slightly similar statement to say something to the Judean High Priest in the book of acts after this priest broke the law by having Paul struck.
It is unscriptural, unGodly, and unethical to believe this completely bogus doctrine that many religions propogate IMO. But I hope it becomes clear to even more people that Dr. Wierwille did not nor ever will rate an exception to criticism, reproof, or even rebuke.
THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I REMEMBER ABOUT DR.WIERWILLE FROM THE OLD DAYS. (good side only)
*He taught me more about the bible than I ever heard before.
*He said, "You're going to heaven and all hell can not stop you from getting there."
*He said, "If you compromise one iota on God's Word you are dead people."
*I heard many stories of the Power of God by way of the Holy Spirit living in him.
*I heard many stories about how being tight with him made someone more spiritual somehow, like some kind of special secret knowledge or something.
I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THESE KINDS OF THINGS TOO, BUT ALL I WANT TO SHOW IS THAT THIS IS WHY I CAN FEEL COMPASSION FOR SOMEONE WHO STILL IS BEING LOYAL TO THEIR MEMORY OF HIM. There really was an awful lot of good things that were said to hold on too. And many good people still think like that about him.
But this was not all that was going on in TWI, was it folks?
I've heard enough to be convinced that Dr. Wierwille had a very,VERY mean and twisted side to his personality. It is no surprise to me that many of these loyalists of Dr.'s have a hard time looking at it.
What dissapoints me the most however is how all the splinter groups who KNOW what was going on just continue the WHITEWASH.
Dr. Wierwille will be the one paying for his crimes IMO. All I have to base that conclusion on is a few scriptures.
What purpose does it serve to try to hold on to "the good stuff" when you can't bear to look at the bad, at best the splinters are engaging in some kind of unrealistic wishful thinking, and continuing the WHITEWASH/ DECEPTION.
If you want to engage in truth, try the truth, DUH.
THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I REMEMBER ABOUT DR.WIERWILLE FROM THE OLD DAYS. (good side only)
*He taught me more about the bible than I ever heard before.
for some of us who never read the bible that wasn't exactly a great accomplishment
*He said, "You're going to heaven and all hell can not stop you from getting there."
questionable to me at this point. I think he was good at convincing HIMSELF that he could abuse, help himself to any female he laid his eyes on, and say "read my lips, loshanta.. see, I's a goin to heaven.." the alternative is well, unpalatable for some who lie in iniquity.. like one of my friends when challenged- "hissssss, don't you DARE touch MY righteousnessssss..." his dad had a pretty good take on it- "you are using the bible to go to hell.."
*He said, "If you compromise one iota on God's Word you are dead people."
as if der vicster didn't. Maybe deep down he knew he was "dead", a thousand times over.. but don't touch his righteousness. See above..
*I heard many stories of the Power of God by way of the Holy Spirit living in him.
I have only heard of ONE instance of a supposed healing from herr "doctor", and I've seen it spiritually damage the individual, too.. I think they paid far more than what it was worth. Personally, I think one would be better off with scars or disabilities..
*I heard many stories about how being tight with him made someone more spiritual somehow, like some kind of special secret knowledge or something.
I think that some were enamored with his "greatness".. perhaps they FELT more spiritual, kinda like jl and scho*nheit.. they still are proud of knowing da "manogawd"..
I know what you mean, and several of your remarks apply to me to some degree.
TWI and Dr. Wierwille are looking nasty, nasty, NASTY to me now!!!!!!!
The extent of the hidden nastiness is staggering to me.
I suppose there are any number of examples of the same kind of thing in history or current events, but when it hits as close to home as "This stuff ruined my life and others," it's just ...... I don't know..... STAGGERING.
For any man to commit the atrocities that Dr. Wierwille has been reported of doing, that man must have a lot of hatred in his heart.
When I recently read the report of three generations of abused women in one family, come again...... THINK ABOUT IT......THREE FRIGIN GENERATIONS...... This was in a committed loyalist's family too!!!!!!
The only thing that I can compare it with in the news right now,(that is if my new and revised picture of Dr. is clear) is the treatment of women in several of Africa's recent conflicts. Defiling the women is an attack on the men too, the race and culture of the targets. (In their thinking anyway)
My splinter group leader had a desire for dominance over men that far exceeded his desire for truth. As far as I know the sexual aspects weren't there, but any man that challenged him was inevitably marked for destruction. (My life is ample evidence for me) In this sense and IMO ironically he was the man he claims to be, a TRUE SON of Dr. Wierwille.
Once he and one of his chief thugs visited Ralph Dubovsky. At the time I think he was sharing the "heavy revy" of his latest false prediction about the time of the Lord's return along with a bunch of stuff on the stars.
Later this chief thug told me that Ralph's ATTITUDE proved to him that Ralph was not worthy of recieving the "Word of God." In my opinion this man who was the same one that kicked me out of the group is worthy of several tirades that I think I will hold back on for now.
Control issues were at the root of both groups (My splinter and TWI) too.
(Added in editing)
This new picture of Dr. Wierwille that I'm developing is refreshing in this sense only. It makes sense to me on several different levels in terms of making sense of many things having to do with TWI's break-up.
But the topic matter is very uncomfortable to deal with. Dr. was apparently the worst kind of manipulator and abuser that I can think of, and he did it in the name of God too.
And all the while carefully maintaining the appearance of the ever loving "father in the word." I used to feel deprived because I never got to partake in any of his fathering personally. But now I'm certain that if he had gotten his hands on me when I was a young man that there is no telling how much of this TWI garbage (I am waiting for the promised garbage fire too.) I might have been sucked into. I remember many things about myself that someone with Dr.'s skill might have been able to manipulate into making me one of the offenders.
For any man to commit the atrocities that Dr. Wierwille has been reported of doing, that man must have a lot of hatred in his heart.
(snip)
But the topic matter is very uncomfortable to deal with. Dr. was apparently the worst kind of manipulator and abuser that I can think of, and he did it in the name of God too.
And all the while carefully maintaining the appearance of the ever loving "father in the word." I used to feel deprived because I never got to partake in any of his fathering personally. But now I'm certain that if he had gotten his hands on me when I was a young man that there is no telling how much of this TWI garbage (I am waiting for the promised garbage fire too.) I might have been sucked into. I remember many things about myself that someone with Dr.'s skill might have been able to manipulate into making me one of the offenders.
I know some posters have said they believe his evil deeds proceeded from a hatred
(or possibly fear-for hatred often springs from fear) of women.
I disagree. (Of course, I could be wrong.) I think that he had a lot of deadness in his heart-
towards other people. He felt a whole lot of NOTHING to them. That's why he was a "pastor"
who never PASTORED his old congregation, and never wanted to bother with people when
they had problems, and seemed completely unprepared when they were dumped in his lap.
We know ("vp and me") that he had NO IDEA what to do when someone came up needing
psychiatric attention and had an acute episode when at hq-he panicked and asked Harry
what to do. And that incident made no impression on him, because later incidents when
MORE people had psychiatric incidents at hq STILL saw no plan of action- other than
vpw SENDING THE PERSON HOME ON A BUS. They got there A WEEK LATER.
(Anyone wonder what happened to them all through that trip?)
There was no contingency for incidents in the field, either-except SEND THEM HOME.
Pontius Pilate showed more conscience about people than vpw showed for people he
had accepted responsibility for.
When there were reports of people badly injured on LEAD, or women raped on LEAD
because they were hitch-hiking (which was a requirement for LEAD, and was the
direct cause of them getting raped), vpw never expressed the idea that they could
change the program. He pointed out that a woman could be raped anywhere-
then proceeded to require hitch-hiking.
The few times he seemed to show compassion either made for great staged moments-
like when the woman was brought to him at the podium after she'd been kidnapped
for deprogramming (but we didn't hear about her after that)
or rarer still, times when his personal involvement was minimal-
like when he agreed to cover the cost of someone's remaining corps sponsorship.
(Mind you, it was unusual he'd give up money, but perhaps in this case, he thought
it was a wise investment in what he wanted.)
In short, I believe he viewed other people as THINGS- and things, you don't get all
emotional about. He used the people and discarded them, as if they were things.
And taught lcm to do the same.
I believe that he thought the only person that mattered was HIMSELF, and that without
exception-not his wife, not his children. That's why whenever his WHIMS were thwarted,
he never stopped to consider the points of view of others, but instead could explode
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JeffSjo
I think that you are speaking with a forked tongue Bumpy.
I wonder if you know what you are doing, but I'm leaning towards thinking that you do.
Maybe if you posted something about who you are and why you are the way that you are I would be more settled in terms of understanding where you are coming from. I mean another thread Bumpy, maybe something from you in the "My Story" section.
Or if you have nothing to contribute to this thread, I think it should get back on track Bumpy.
I will ignore your next post to give it a chance of continuing on in a good direction.
(edited for clarity)
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Bumpy
Jeff, again no forked tung, I just thought you could possibly make history here at gs with a little razzle dazzle of believing = receiving and in the process, you know become a famous kind of guy...Sort of like Steve Martin!! :unsure:
HEY! Ignore my next post, but don't blame me if you missed your BIG chance!!
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Nottawayfer
At the time I was still drinking koolaide, I had a boyfriend (also in TWI), who proclaimed to me that TWI was effed up. I arrogantly chastised him for going to GSC and told him "Of course you're going to hear negative!!" Two weeks later, my eyes were opened, and I started planning my exit. I ended up at GSC myself, and started posting while I was still in. God worked a lot of things in my heart. I'm better than ever right now, and it's been 5 1/2 years since I left TWI.
I didn't give up on God; I gave up on an organization. Wayfers have a hard time separating their ministry from God. It's an idolatrous ploy.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hi Mark...I'm not sure when this was first mentioned...Wierwille himself admitted to the corps during corps week that he taught his daughters what men might expect from them (by "fondling" them)...when they were about 12 years old....DWBH, Excathedra and a few others know more about this than I do...
Today, if a father admitted to an audience that he had done such things to his own daughters, he would be locked up in jail...
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dmiller
Did someone mention Steve Martin???
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JeffSjo
Dear Groucho,
This is a new one for me.
OMG
The insanity just gets worse and worse the longer that I consider the matter.
This is clearly a testimony to the nasty little crowd control techniques that Dr. Wierwille employed that he ran such a tight ship that this sort of garbage was even openly shared.
I think that for the first time I am truly happy that TWI broke-up and/or fell apart. Even though the trash fire worthy garbage doctrines keep plugging along to some extent. BLECH!
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polar bear
Loved it-Hiel Hitler (I mean Wierwille)
I was as close to a Nazi leader as any I've seen. We worked as hard as his slaves too.
Where's Mike and Oldies.
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Twinky
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the lawsuit papers, even print off the "final judgment" and show Steff. (You could download it to your computer and email it as an attachment.). That's a document of public record - not just some stuff posted by who-knows? on a website. Courts are not easily deceived and searching questions were asked. That judgment relates to some preliminary findings of the court.
As a result of the court's findings, TWI settled the lawsuits before going to court for a full hearing, because they couldn't bear any more of their dirty laundry to be hung out in public.
Sometimes court proceedings are settled prior to trial as a matter of commercial expedency - it's cheaper to pay up or apologize or whatever is required, than to take a hit of any more costs against you, even if you are "right" and the other party is "wrong".
Sometimes a settlement is made because the evidence one way or the other is simply too much to resist and a court would be bound to find against you.
In these proceedings, the latter applies. The settlement was made because the evidence produced to that point was so damning that TWI couldn't do damage-control any longer. They got rid of the obvious problem (LCM) but they still haven't dealt with the less obvious problem (those who were in the know but are with TWI, like Rosalie Rivenbark).
If exposing LCM and RFR is picking on VPW then so be it. The organization is what VPW taught it to be.
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waysider
I'm not saying you should or should not do this but if you do, you might want to also include Dr. Wierwille's death certificate that states his cause of death as being cancer. That's a huge deal in TWI doctrine. Wierwille taught, in his "advanced class', that cancer is devil possession. So there you have the ultimate dilemma, either we followed the teachings of a man who was possessed or he was wrong about the spirit thing. If he was wrong about that, what else was he wrong about?
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excathedra
scam scam scam artist
not sure if this is on topic
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waysider
-----------------------Bullseye!!---------------------
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Brushstroke
Whoa...
I was doing some reading earlier, and I read something by St. Isaac the Syrian (look him up, great guy) and as I read it Wierwille and what I've read about him immediately popped into my head. Just thought I'd share it with you all.
I thought this was really creepy how descriptive this is of Wierwille.
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dmiller
Brushstroke -- at your age you are MUCH more perceptive than I was in my lifetime.
Keep on thinking the way you are. It'll save future heartache with Steph.
Waysider is 100% correct. Docvic died of cancer, and he ALWAYS taught that cancer was caused by a devil spirit inhabiting the body of the person afflicted. Well --- guess which category that puts him in, eh?????? He condemns himself by his own teachings, yet (on the other hand) expects folks to listen to everything he had to say about the bible.
I don't know this for a fact (perhaps others can chime in here), but I have heard that the last ROA he was at, he had oxygen tanks ABUNDANTLY available to him, so he could keep on breathing.
Here's a so called MOG who taught *Believing equals Receiving*, and *Cancer is a Devil Spirit Possession*, succumbing to the *Devil Spirit possessing him*, and UNABLE to utilize his own teaching of Believing, to produce the deliverance for himself, that he mandated that others should do for their own deliverance.
Mention this to Stephanie, tell her it's ALL documented, and watch the relationship disappear.
If she's die-hard twi ---- She won't take kindly to this here.
And you'll be better off because of it.
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T-Bone
I agree with you!
It just may be God is behind the rain of criticism on vp. Read about the consequences of disobedience in Deuteronomy 28 and especially the attendant slam to one's reputation in verse 37, You shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people…NASB . And if that's just out-dated dispensational sentiment for some folks, try I Corinthians 5:1 on for size, It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist among the Gentiles…NASB . Think about the big picture surrounding this verse. Some say even going by the pagan standards of that culture, Corinth was so morally corrupt that its very name became synonymous with debauchery and moral depravity – to "corinthianize" meant to participate in gross immorality. And in that context, Paul said "This sin is so vile even your pagan neighbors are grossed out."
vp was a man without scruples. His "ethics" took hypocrisy to new heights. He brought all this upon himself. TWI is a cult – based on the personality of vp. It was always about him! I think the reason he promoted "the absent Christ" was to shift the focus on himself. He loved being referred to as "our father in the Word." He was a prolific plagiarist who gloried in the achievements of others by stamping his name all over it. He'd hawk his teaching the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century bu11$hi+, relished in the adulation - eating it up like a pig loving slop every time folks would introduce him as the man of God for this day and time.
The "absent Christ" pronounced a severe judgment on religious hypocrites who usurp the authority of God:
Matthew 15:12-14 NASB
12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"
13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
14 "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
And that makes me think of Gamaliel's advice in
Acts 5:38, 39 NASB
38 "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
What makes you think God was ever behind vp? Rather…what if God is behind the plague consuming vp's reputation. Perhaps it has been His invisible hand uncorking the "lock boxes" of vp's victims.
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JeffSjo
Today I had a very interesting discussion that may relate to some folks here. It was with another Christian who fellowship's with another church I used to associate with. things didn't go so well for me their, but this man and I have been working together for a week or so and it's pleasant to discuss things with him. I just make sure that I don't criticize, and he doesn't ask about anything that he really doesn't want to hear. So far so good.
He brought up that on board a ship on the high seas it was not permissable to get in the captains face, so to speak.
I pointed out from the scripture and my own reasoning that no man is above criticism IN THE CHURCH, except the one true high priest, Jesus Christ himself. All others are fair game the way I see it. Especially when lives are being ruined. This applies to a small degree to my experience in this church; small, smaller, smallest even when compared to TWI.
I'm certain that this type of analogy was used to try to silence just criticism and reproof in TWI. "Dr. was the captain of the ship and we must keep military discipline", they said.
This lifestyle is neccessary on a ship, but the discipline will not keep in place in any navy if the captain of the ship is drugging and raping his men.
To me it is appropriate and neccessary to say clearly that Dr. Wierwille was NOT THE HIGH PRIEST. Even Paul used a slightly similar statement to say something to the Judean High Priest in the book of acts after this priest broke the law by having Paul struck.
It is unscriptural, unGodly, and unethical to believe this completely bogus doctrine that many religions propogate IMO. But I hope it becomes clear to even more people that Dr. Wierwille did not nor ever will rate an exception to criticism, reproof, or even rebuke.
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JeffSjo
THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I REMEMBER ABOUT DR.WIERWILLE FROM THE OLD DAYS. (good side only)
*He taught me more about the bible than I ever heard before.
*He said, "You're going to heaven and all hell can not stop you from getting there."
*He said, "If you compromise one iota on God's Word you are dead people."
*I heard many stories of the Power of God by way of the Holy Spirit living in him.
*I heard many stories about how being tight with him made someone more spiritual somehow, like some kind of special secret knowledge or something.
I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THESE KINDS OF THINGS TOO, BUT ALL I WANT TO SHOW IS THAT THIS IS WHY I CAN FEEL COMPASSION FOR SOMEONE WHO STILL IS BEING LOYAL TO THEIR MEMORY OF HIM. There really was an awful lot of good things that were said to hold on too. And many good people still think like that about him.
________________________________________________________________________________
____________________________
But this was not all that was going on in TWI, was it folks?
I've heard enough to be convinced that Dr. Wierwille had a very,VERY mean and twisted side to his personality. It is no surprise to me that many of these loyalists of Dr.'s have a hard time looking at it.
What dissapoints me the most however is how all the splinter groups who KNOW what was going on just continue the WHITEWASH.
Dr. Wierwille will be the one paying for his crimes IMO. All I have to base that conclusion on is a few scriptures.
What purpose does it serve to try to hold on to "the good stuff" when you can't bear to look at the bad, at best the splinters are engaging in some kind of unrealistic wishful thinking, and continuing the WHITEWASH/ DECEPTION.
If you want to engage in truth, try the truth, DUH.
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JeffSjo
"NEVER FORGET WHO TAUGHT YOU GOD'S WORD." ----- Dr. Wierwille
I say, " True enough, but he isn't looking to me as good as I always thought he did."
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waysider
Well, now, that would probably be my Mother, who taught me the greatest lesson from God's Word I ever learned----"God loves you just the way you are."
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Ham
Just a few observations..
:)
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JeffSjo
Dear Ham,
I know what you mean, and several of your remarks apply to me to some degree.
TWI and Dr. Wierwille are looking nasty, nasty, NASTY to me now!!!!!!!
The extent of the hidden nastiness is staggering to me.
I suppose there are any number of examples of the same kind of thing in history or current events, but when it hits as close to home as "This stuff ruined my life and others," it's just ...... I don't know..... STAGGERING.
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JeffSjo
For any man to commit the atrocities that Dr. Wierwille has been reported of doing, that man must have a lot of hatred in his heart.
When I recently read the report of three generations of abused women in one family, come again...... THINK ABOUT IT......THREE FRIGIN GENERATIONS...... This was in a committed loyalist's family too!!!!!!
The only thing that I can compare it with in the news right now,(that is if my new and revised picture of Dr. is clear) is the treatment of women in several of Africa's recent conflicts. Defiling the women is an attack on the men too, the race and culture of the targets. (In their thinking anyway)
My splinter group leader had a desire for dominance over men that far exceeded his desire for truth. As far as I know the sexual aspects weren't there, but any man that challenged him was inevitably marked for destruction. (My life is ample evidence for me) In this sense and IMO ironically he was the man he claims to be, a TRUE SON of Dr. Wierwille.
Once he and one of his chief thugs visited Ralph Dubovsky. At the time I think he was sharing the "heavy revy" of his latest false prediction about the time of the Lord's return along with a bunch of stuff on the stars.
Later this chief thug told me that Ralph's ATTITUDE proved to him that Ralph was not worthy of recieving the "Word of God." In my opinion this man who was the same one that kicked me out of the group is worthy of several tirades that I think I will hold back on for now.
Control issues were at the root of both groups (My splinter and TWI) too.
(Added in editing)
This new picture of Dr. Wierwille that I'm developing is refreshing in this sense only. It makes sense to me on several different levels in terms of making sense of many things having to do with TWI's break-up.
But the topic matter is very uncomfortable to deal with. Dr. was apparently the worst kind of manipulator and abuser that I can think of, and he did it in the name of God too.
And all the while carefully maintaining the appearance of the ever loving "father in the word." I used to feel deprived because I never got to partake in any of his fathering personally. But now I'm certain that if he had gotten his hands on me when I was a young man that there is no telling how much of this TWI garbage (I am waiting for the promised garbage fire too.) I might have been sucked into. I remember many things about myself that someone with Dr.'s skill might have been able to manipulate into making me one of the offenders.
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WordWolf
I know some posters have said they believe his evil deeds proceeded from a hatred
(or possibly fear-for hatred often springs from fear) of women.
I disagree. (Of course, I could be wrong.) I think that he had a lot of deadness in his heart-
towards other people. He felt a whole lot of NOTHING to them. That's why he was a "pastor"
who never PASTORED his old congregation, and never wanted to bother with people when
they had problems, and seemed completely unprepared when they were dumped in his lap.
We know ("vp and me") that he had NO IDEA what to do when someone came up needing
psychiatric attention and had an acute episode when at hq-he panicked and asked Harry
what to do. And that incident made no impression on him, because later incidents when
MORE people had psychiatric incidents at hq STILL saw no plan of action- other than
vpw SENDING THE PERSON HOME ON A BUS. They got there A WEEK LATER.
(Anyone wonder what happened to them all through that trip?)
There was no contingency for incidents in the field, either-except SEND THEM HOME.
Pontius Pilate showed more conscience about people than vpw showed for people he
had accepted responsibility for.
When there were reports of people badly injured on LEAD, or women raped on LEAD
because they were hitch-hiking (which was a requirement for LEAD, and was the
direct cause of them getting raped), vpw never expressed the idea that they could
change the program. He pointed out that a woman could be raped anywhere-
then proceeded to require hitch-hiking.
The few times he seemed to show compassion either made for great staged moments-
like when the woman was brought to him at the podium after she'd been kidnapped
for deprogramming (but we didn't hear about her after that)
or rarer still, times when his personal involvement was minimal-
like when he agreed to cover the cost of someone's remaining corps sponsorship.
(Mind you, it was unusual he'd give up money, but perhaps in this case, he thought
it was a wise investment in what he wanted.)
In short, I believe he viewed other people as THINGS- and things, you don't get all
emotional about. He used the people and discarded them, as if they were things.
And taught lcm to do the same.
I believe that he thought the only person that mattered was HIMSELF, and that without
exception-not his wife, not his children. That's why whenever his WHIMS were thwarted,
he never stopped to consider the points of view of others, but instead could explode
into anger the moment it pleased him to do so.
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dmiller
Bingo! Sadly (or maybe not), you've hit the nail on the head.
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T-Bone
Great post, Word Wolf ! A sociopath in the guise of a pastor is a scary thing. Makes about as much sense as leaving a wolf in charge of the sheep.
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