That seems like a very relevant question about supposed leader's aspirations. IMO it is very unlikely that any of them would share as it relates to their ambitions.
I became convinced long ago that my former splinter leader considers himself to be Wierwille and Geer's superior. His followers even reffered to him as "the Word in the flesh."
I think it might be very interesting to compare this book with my splinter experience.
It would seem that there are many former twi leaders who never found their way out of the Emerald city...
They learned their lessons well from the cornfield huckster and have carved out their own little kingdoms, comprised of followers who needed a cult after twi hit the skids...they have learned how to make a living out of the "God business" and they have, like Wierwille and Martindale, gone off the "deep end" with their own egos and self importance...
You've got to wonder how many of the splinter/leaders feel they could've held TWI together if it had been them and not LCM at the helm?
my opinion?..........every single one of them!..........starting with geer's self-styled "putsch" in classsic nazi style, every one of the offshoots exist because, in the self-inflated opinion of their "leaders", they believe they've each got the "right way" of saving the "greatness of the word" vic revealed "as it hasn't been known since the first century" in all it's pureness!......and, in addition, without ever publicly admitting to their personal, tacit approval and acceptance of the fact that vic was a mean-spirited, sociopathic, incestuous, serial sexual predator and alcoholic, they now proclaim, that because of their own personal "integrity", and with the help of vic's god, they are now somehow able to continue "speaking the truth in love", without the interference of vic's well-known and documented personal psychopathologies and profoundly sick personal perversions!
liars and hypocrites every one, imho!...........each owing their "ministries" to vic and twi, while publicly denying or ignoring the facts of vic and twi's shameful history of sexual and "spiritual" abuse of literally hundreds of innocent "believers"!.........yet shamelessly securing the loyalty and money of ex-wayfers still stuck in the manufactured "need" for the "rightly divided word of god" vic narcissistically and falsely claimed originated with his "god-ordained ministry"........imo, an utterly contemptible, self-serving, and hypocritcal phoney version of "christianity", void of any genuine presence of christ and/or his heavenly father!..........theologies and belief systems firmly and completely rooted in the plagiarism, lies, and elementary school intellectualism of vic's "biblical research ministry"!
they never had the honesty or humility to obtain legitimate, accredited, theolgical and ministerial training, foolishly accepting their way corps "training and education" as somehow being superior to, or at least equal to the legitimate training available from denominational or independently, fully accredited seminaries!.......and manufacturing all sorts of excuses and rationalizations for not taking the time, spending the money, or putting in the effort to obtain legitimate, accredited, ministerial education and training which would provide effective and legitimate christian service and ministry to and for those followers looking to them for the same!
this, despite the fact that every one of them has either participated in the spiritual abuse of twi followers, as well as their own sexual dalliances with followers, or the experience, in some cases, of having their own children serially sexually abused by vic, king okie, or other twi "leaders" and never having the courage to admit it or confront it while they continued to live off of twi's financial storehouse!..........while at the same time, covertly soliciting the allegiance and financial loyalty of twi followers who themselves were the objects of viscious persecution and abuse by twi while those selfsame "leaders" functioned in "leadership positions" for twi under the brutal reign of the doofus from okie himself, or the smarmy, lying, cover-up version of twi that rosie now oversees!
ye hypocrites!......liars, and whited sepulchres of arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and christ-denying false christian religion............man-made, broken cisterns of empty, ineffectual, psychoemotionally bigotted, self-serving, corrupt, ideologies of hatred and intolerance, imo!................in effect, denying the omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence of "the one true god" they proclaim to love and serve!.................grossly inexcusable, dishonest and manipulative manufactured religions of abuse and denial of reality!............god will judge, and they, just like nebuchadnezzar, will be weighed in the balance and found sorely wanting!............................to my fellow greasespotters.....................peace.
my opinion?..........every single one of them!..........starting with geer's self-styled "putsch" in classsic nazi style, every one of the offshoots exist because, in the self-inflated opinion of their "leaders", they believe they've each got the "right way" of saving the "greatness of the word" vic revealed "as it hasn't been known since the first century" in all it's pureness!......and, in addition, without ever publicly admitting to their personal, tacit approval and acceptance of the fact that vic was a mean-spirited, sociopathic, incestuous, serial sexual predator and alcoholic, they now proclaim, that because of their own personal "integrity", and with the help of vic's god, they are now somehow able to continue "speaking the truth in love", without the interference of vic's well-known and documented personal psychopathologies and profoundly sick personal perversions!
DWBH - don't you agree with the idea that without healthy dissent that this was the only direction TWI could go?
My only experience outside TWI was with CES. Didn't CES start down the path of shutting down dissent relatively quickly? For me it was about the time it changed Dialog to Contender. I know for you it was earlier, but you had more insider info than I.
Nato, could you help me? I can't find where Jeff did or said anything like that, so maybe you are replying to someone else's post? Or maybe I DID miss something Jeff said, in which case a quote from him would help. Seriously, at my age I am capable of missing something once in a while...or so my oldest son tells me!
Edited by modbaker Removed quote of personal attack
Nato, I appreciate your sentiment, but I think you just read too much into the TITLE without reading
the opening post.
Here's part of it....
Somewhere on this site recently I was reminded of an old sentiment that was common in TWI. I don't remember who shared it for sure, maybe it wasn't even the same sentiment exactly, but something that reminded me of it.
The sentiment goes something like, " These carrion eaters are picking on poor Dr. Wierwille and he's dead now, shame on them."
Personally, this is the thinking about picking on Dr. Wierwille that I, myself had just a matter of months ago, I made it very clear that I would gladly stomp anyone who had anything bad to say about Dr. Wierwille, especially among those of us who learned the bible at TWI.
But since coming to the Greasespot I've heard a different side of the story, one that includes rape, sexual manipulation and abuse, intimidation by Dr. Wierwille and his top leadership, a very deliberate cover-up of these things that apparently was spearheaded by LCM and Chris Geer, suicide, broken men and women among many of your friends, pimping out wonderful young women who deserved so, so much better, legal documentation where Dr. Wierwille admitted to "sexual ministering" to a young woman, etc. etc. etc.
My premise is simply this, truth and conscience demands that TWI leadership abuse needs to be yelled from the rooftops.
(snip)
But as it is, I'm p.o.d by the scumbag who did these things and let his leadership partake in the abuse.
I can still sympathise with any of you who feel like I did not very long ago.
Nato, I appreciate your sentiment, but I think you just read too much into the TITLE without reading
the opening post.
Here's part of it....
I have to apologize. I was drinking last night when I wrote that. I must have gotten down to the third paragraph and got so worked up at t he thought that I just stopped reading. Sorry everyone. Don't drink and post.
I have to apologize. I was drinking last night when I wrote that. I must have gotten down to the third paragraph and got so worked up at t he thought that I just stopped reading. Sorry everyone. Don't drink and post.
Dear Nato,
I guess that I missed something here on this thread. If there really is a substantive point that you feel that needs to be said, I'll be happy to hear from you here at the greasespot.
DWBH - don't you agree with the idea that without healthy dissent that this was the only direction TWI could go?
My only experience outside TWI was with CES. Didn't CES start down the path of shutting down dissent relatively quickly? For me it was about the time it changed Dialog to Contender. I know for you it was earlier, but you had more insider info than I.
hiya tzaia!........i think that rhymes, doesn't it?
any group that does not facilitate "healthy dissent", imho, does so to institutionalize its philosophies and/or ideologies. the only possible outcome of this kind of psychodynamic is rabid group-think, which becomes completely self-serving, and acutely intolerant of any thinking which questions or threatens the accepted "thinking" of the group.
at its inception, ces was based on "healthy dissent"! after all, the members of the "original" ces bod, were well-known former "leaders" in twi, whose dissent from twi policies, procedures, and several key twi doctrines had become a matter of public record during the 18 months or so between the times of their departures from twi and the incorporation of the initial "incarnation" of ces. jalvis was the only one who seemed insistent upon building a "ministry" for ex-wayfers to cling to in order to continue "moving the word over the world"........the other original bod members were more interested in #1, getting the truth and facts "out in the open" about what vic, the twi bot, and twi were really all about, #2, trying to provide some kind of network for twi victims to obtain comfort and help with their own "separation anxieties" about leaving twi, and #3, provide a "clearinghouse" for continued study, "research", and teaching of the bible, without any prescribed doctrine, but rather a continued dialogue between and among christians of all denominations and theologies, minus an "enforced", centralized, hierarchical structure, which expected allegiance and collected monies. in hindsight, i'd have to admit, that our original concept of what ces could be was overly idealistic!.........there were just so many visceral responses , not only to the volume of information we were presenting in our exposure of vic's "ministry", and the realities that were twi, but also to the variouis individual cases of spiritual and sexual abuse that required far more professional and pastoral help than ces was ever able to provide!
as time marched on, the 4 ces bod members besides jalvis, quickly began to realize that we were not sufficiently prepared, personally or professionally to provide what was needed for our concept of ces to become actualized, nor were we sufficiently educated and trained to provide legitimate, genuine christian ministry to the rapidly growing number of twi refugees streaming out of twi's clutches.........jalvis disagreed strongly with us on this, and our bi-weekly conference calls became more like updates on what jalvis was doing and wanted ces to do, than they were brainstorming ways to actualize what we thought ces was supposed to be..........the momentus "issue" became a heated "bone of contention" beween the 4 of us and jalvis, as did his insistence upon expanding the bod to include schoenheit and the graeser's.........so, within just a few months of incorporating ces, the other 4 original members of the ces bod resigned, and/or "drifted away" from any involvement with what was becoming jalvis' "ministry", and charted our own courses to the future.
so, there really wasn't a "path of shutting down dissent" in ces at that time, imho........rather, it was more of a "non-hostile takeover" of ces by jalvis and his new bod buddies......the rest of us "original" bod members decided to "let it go", and two of us went back to school, and the other two worked on their careers and taking care of their families........none of us wanted anything to do with momentus, or the direction ces was heading under the "vision and direction" of jalvis and the new bod members.......and none us did take part in ces from late fall 1988 forward.........and none of us has to this day.........the evolution of ces into the twi offshoot it is today is totally the responsibility of jalvis, schoenheit and the graeser's............i thank god i was not and am not a part of that cult.........one cult in my lifetime is enough for me!...........hope that answers your question tzaia...........................................peace.
I guess that I missed something here on this thread. If there really is a substantive point that you feel that needs to be said, I'll be happy to hear from you here at the greasespot.
I meant to say, I got to the third paragraph and stopped reading. If I had I would have realized how out of context my deleted comment was. Sorry!
lohn came up with that nickname himself, by doing exactly what you suggested.......putting the "vis" of elvis at the end of his (john's) initials........he did this for the first time when he was the corps coordinator at emporia, and appeared as an "elvis impersonator" doing his schtick for an in-house talent show or something like that.............i thought that nickname was just so fitting, i've always called john by that nickname since........sorry if my old habit was confusing for any of you greasespotters!................ok...........back to the topic now!.........LOL!............................................peace.
Recently a friend asked me, as it applies to Wierwille, "How can we REALLY know what was on a man's heart?"
As a Christian, I believe that the Lord himself will have the final say as to what was on his heart. Even if I was not a Christian, I would hope that I would consider it wise to not speculate too much about a man that I never even talked too!
But I've been considering one scripture that I think is worth considering, no matter what your world view happens to be.....
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT.
As Wierwille has come and gone, run his course if you will, we have the right and responsibility to do our part and consider the matter. I think it might be boorish or even annoying for me to attempt to repeat the things that many of you know by personal experience much better than me what he was like behind closed doors.
But I consider myself to be PFAL fruit, but I must admit that Wierwille was disingenuous about where he got his information and had no right to allow himself to ever be considered as MOGFODAT. It makes it appear clear to me what Wierwille's character was when I can plainly see all the puffed up, lying, brow beating, mind-game playing, life ruining, and blindly ambitious leaders that deserve to be considered Wierwille's progeny.
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT.
hi greasespotters!
You've got to wonder how many of the splinter/leaders feel they could've held TWI together if it had been them and not LCM at the helm?
my opinion?..........every single one of them!..........starting with geer's self-styled "putsch" in classsic nazi style, every one of the offshoots exist because, in the self-inflated opinion of their "leaders", they believe they've each got the "right way" of saving the "greatness of the word" vic revealed "as it hasn't been known since the first century" in all it's pureness!......and, in addition, without ever publicly admitting to their personal, tacit approval and acceptance of the fact that vic was a mean-spirited, sociopathic, incestuous, serial sexual predator and alcoholic, they now proclaim, that because of their own personal "integrity", and with the help of vic's god, they are now somehow able to continue "speaking the truth in love", without the interference of vic's well-known and documented personal psychopathologies and profoundly sick personal perversions!
liars and hypocrites every one, imho!...........each owing their "ministries" to vic and twi, while publicly denying or ignoring the facts of vic and twi's shameful history of sexual and "spiritual" abuse of literally hundreds of innocent "believers"!.........yet shamelessly securing the loyalty and money of ex-wayfers still stuck in the manufactured "need" for the "rightly divided word of god" vic narcissistically and falsely claimed originated with his "god-ordained ministry"........imo, an utterly contemptible, self-serving, and hypocritcal phoney version of "christianity", void of any genuine presence of christ and/or his heavenly father!..........theologies and belief systems firmly and completely rooted in the plagiarism, lies, and elementary school intellectualism of vic's "biblical research ministry"!
they never had the honesty or humility to obtain legitimate, accredited, theolgical and ministerial training, foolishly accepting their way corps "training and education" as somehow being superior to, or at least equal to the legitimate training available from denominational or independently, fully accredited seminaries!.......and manufacturing all sorts of excuses and rationalizations for not taking the time, spending the money, or putting in the effort to obtain legitimate, accredited, ministerial education and training which would provide effective and legitimate christian service and ministry to and for those followers looking to them for the same!
this, despite the fact that every one of them has either participated in the spiritual abuse of twi followers, as well as their own sexual dalliances with followers, or the experience, in some cases, of having their own children serially sexually abused by vic, king okie, or other twi "leaders" and never having the courage to admit it or confront it while they continued to live off of twi's financial storehouse!..........while at the same time, covertly soliciting the allegiance and financial loyalty of twi followers who themselves were the objects of viscious persecution and abuse by twi while those selfsame "leaders" functioned in "leadership positions" for twi under the brutal reign of the doofus from okie himself, or the smarmy, lying, cover-up version of twi that rosie now oversees!
ye hypocrites!......liars, and whited sepulchres of arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and christ-denying false christian religion............man-made, broken cisterns of empty, ineffectual, psychoemotionally bigotted, self-serving, corrupt, ideologies of hatred and intolerance, imo!................in effect, denying the omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence of "the one true god" they proclaim to love and serve!.................grossly inexcusable, dishonest and manipulative manufactured religions of abuse and denial of reality!............god will judge, and they, just like nebuchadnezzar, will be weighed in the balance and found sorely wanting!............................to my fellow greasespotters.....................peace.
This was sooo well said IMO DWBH that it seems worth repeating as knowing them by their fruit, along with your up close and personal experience that I am so very glad that you are willing to share with us. PEACE.....
Recently a friend asked me, as it applies to Wierwille, "How can we REALLY know what was on a man's heart?"
As a Christian, I believe that the Lord himself will have the final say as to what was on his heart. Even if I was not a Christian, I would hope that I would consider it wise to not speculate too much about a man that I never even talked too!
But I've been considering one scripture that I think is worth considering, no matter what your world view happens to be.....
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT...
Good point, Jeff…and according to Jesus, a person's actions are a pretty good indicator of what's been on their heart:
Matthew 15:15-20 NASB
15 Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."
16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
I agree, the Lord will have the final say so on matters of the heart. However, reading the verses that lead up to the above passage it seems to me our Lord is talking about Christians being able to discern hypocrisy right here and now.
One thing about this topic that I continue to consider is the realization that in order for us to see and perceive these things there must have been a ministry that turned corrupt. I can only pray for and seek to support the victims of TWI abuse, realizing it must be a hard thing having had to suffer these things.
In this case IMO the seeds for destruction for TWI were hidden in Wierwille's heart at the outset of the ministry. Looking back, it seems clear to me that Wierwille himself was hurt by the people that he taught how to rule. And even more, he seemed to feel it was necessary to distance himself from these bastards who were not nearly as skilled at projecting a convincing portrait of Godliness while simultaneously sating their lusts at many people's expense as he was.
Recently a friend asked me, as it applies to Wierwille, "How can we REALLY know what was on a man's heart?"
Jeff:
As a Christian, I believe that the Lord himself will have the final say as to what was on his heart. Even if I was not a Christian, I would hope that I would consider it wise to not speculate too much about a man that I never even talked too!
But I've been considering one scripture that I think is worth considering, no matter what your world view happens to be.....
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT.
As Wierwille has come and gone, run his course if you will, we have the right and responsibility to do our part and consider the matter. I think it might be boorish or even annoying for me to attempt to repeat the things that many of you know by personal experience much better than me what he was like behind closed doors.
But I consider myself to be PFAL fruit, but I must admit that Wierwille was disingenuous about where he got his information and had no right to allow himself to ever be considered as MOGFODAT. It makes it appear clear to me what Wierwille's character was when I can plainly see all the puffed up, lying, brow beating, mind-game playing, life ruining, and blindly ambitious leaders that deserve to be considered Wierwille's progeny.
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT.
This is very well stated Jeff and even though we carried with us many wounds and scars we learned valuable
lessons as well; Some we didn't need or want and some that will serve us well to know. Some of these were:
1. We learned For sure, how NOT to behave toward GOD or mankind; along with a very long list of NOT to do's!
2. We learned how to survive, and to heal and to help others to as well.
3. We learned to use greater wisdom and to know that if your questions and concerns are being avoided diminished or dismissed; that GOD probably was summarily dismissed too along with them and You.
4. We learned Enough Bible to know GOD and to know that He was not first in the grand scheme of it all; and that they left Jesus Christ out almost entirely.
5. We learned that they did not live up to their promises... an example would be: instead of signs wonders and miracles from a leadership level we received all manner of threats abuses and condemnations; and even eventually the blame for all that lacked in the fulfillment of promises made.
6.We learned that when the practical of GOD's Word isn't there the doctrinal is an empty front, disguising something sinister underneath it.
7. We learned that when people You loved early on grow cold, calloused and cruel with deeper commitments and involvement, something is gravely wrong.
8 We learned that with the recognition of evil, that it is our responsibility to expose it for what it is, so that all are warned and may avoid it and recover from it.
9.We learned not to expose evil and wrong in a boastful manner for by the grace of GOD go I. That if the tempter whispered in our ears in like or some other manner we may have been enticed to it all of or been part this evil.
10. We learned this:Jam 1:12 ¶ Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
11. We Learned that there will be absolute repercussion and definite pay back for crossing, being at odds with or opposing or questioning a leader or anyone else with an inferiority complex, disguised as a superior being at least in their own mind...That the consequences were usually banning, marking and avoiding and permanent isolation.
12. We learned that these tactics and stategies are an abomination to GOD and He will absolutely avenge every evil work.
Simply and briefly asked, are there any faults in TWI that cannot be traced back to it being started by a sociopathic sexual predator like Wierwille who presumed to teach people the Bible.
Oh yeah, not just that, he plagiarized, desired to be the big dog, crushed people like it was a game that he had the right to carry out, and fooled most all of us that he was a Man of God.
How can anyone deal with TWI honestly without seeing that it's faults are a direct result of Wierwille's problems?
Simply and briefly asked, are there any faults in TWI that cannot be traced back to it being started by a sociopathic sexual predator like Wierwille who presumed to teach people the Bible.
Oh yeah, not just that, he plagiarized, desired to be the big dog, crushed people like it was a game that he had the right to carry out, and fooled most all of us that he was a Man of God.
How can anyone deal with TWI honestly without seeing that it's faults are a direct result of Wierwille's problems?
It fits for me.
That's it- to do otherwise is to deal DIShonestly with twi.
Some people are more COMFORTABLE to be deceptive, to lie to themselves,
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That seems like a very relevant question about supposed leader's aspirations. IMO it is very unlikely that any of them would share as it relates to their ambitions.
I became convinced long ago that my former splinter leader considers himself to be Wierwille and Geer's superior. His followers even reffered to him as "the Word in the flesh."
I think it might be very interesting to compare this book with my splinter experience.
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GrouchoMarxJr
It would seem that there are many former twi leaders who never found their way out of the Emerald city...
They learned their lessons well from the cornfield huckster and have carved out their own little kingdoms, comprised of followers who needed a cult after twi hit the skids...they have learned how to make a living out of the "God business" and they have, like Wierwille and Martindale, gone off the "deep end" with their own egos and self importance...
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi greasespotters!
You've got to wonder how many of the splinter/leaders feel they could've held TWI together if it had been them and not LCM at the helm?
my opinion?..........every single one of them!..........starting with geer's self-styled "putsch" in classsic nazi style, every one of the offshoots exist because, in the self-inflated opinion of their "leaders", they believe they've each got the "right way" of saving the "greatness of the word" vic revealed "as it hasn't been known since the first century" in all it's pureness!......and, in addition, without ever publicly admitting to their personal, tacit approval and acceptance of the fact that vic was a mean-spirited, sociopathic, incestuous, serial sexual predator and alcoholic, they now proclaim, that because of their own personal "integrity", and with the help of vic's god, they are now somehow able to continue "speaking the truth in love", without the interference of vic's well-known and documented personal psychopathologies and profoundly sick personal perversions!
liars and hypocrites every one, imho!...........each owing their "ministries" to vic and twi, while publicly denying or ignoring the facts of vic and twi's shameful history of sexual and "spiritual" abuse of literally hundreds of innocent "believers"!.........yet shamelessly securing the loyalty and money of ex-wayfers still stuck in the manufactured "need" for the "rightly divided word of god" vic narcissistically and falsely claimed originated with his "god-ordained ministry"........imo, an utterly contemptible, self-serving, and hypocritcal phoney version of "christianity", void of any genuine presence of christ and/or his heavenly father!..........theologies and belief systems firmly and completely rooted in the plagiarism, lies, and elementary school intellectualism of vic's "biblical research ministry"!
they never had the honesty or humility to obtain legitimate, accredited, theolgical and ministerial training, foolishly accepting their way corps "training and education" as somehow being superior to, or at least equal to the legitimate training available from denominational or independently, fully accredited seminaries!.......and manufacturing all sorts of excuses and rationalizations for not taking the time, spending the money, or putting in the effort to obtain legitimate, accredited, ministerial education and training which would provide effective and legitimate christian service and ministry to and for those followers looking to them for the same!
this, despite the fact that every one of them has either participated in the spiritual abuse of twi followers, as well as their own sexual dalliances with followers, or the experience, in some cases, of having their own children serially sexually abused by vic, king okie, or other twi "leaders" and never having the courage to admit it or confront it while they continued to live off of twi's financial storehouse!..........while at the same time, covertly soliciting the allegiance and financial loyalty of twi followers who themselves were the objects of viscious persecution and abuse by twi while those selfsame "leaders" functioned in "leadership positions" for twi under the brutal reign of the doofus from okie himself, or the smarmy, lying, cover-up version of twi that rosie now oversees!
ye hypocrites!......liars, and whited sepulchres of arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and christ-denying false christian religion............man-made, broken cisterns of empty, ineffectual, psychoemotionally bigotted, self-serving, corrupt, ideologies of hatred and intolerance, imo!................in effect, denying the omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence of "the one true god" they proclaim to love and serve!.................grossly inexcusable, dishonest and manipulative manufactured religions of abuse and denial of reality!............god will judge, and they, just like nebuchadnezzar, will be weighed in the balance and found sorely wanting!............................to my fellow greasespotters.....................peace.
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Mike
NOT all.
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coolchef
well said don't worry
peace also unto you
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Tzaia
DWBH - don't you agree with the idea that without healthy dissent that this was the only direction TWI could go?
My only experience outside TWI was with CES. Didn't CES start down the path of shutting down dissent relatively quickly? For me it was about the time it changed Dialog to Contender. I know for you it was earlier, but you had more insider info than I.
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Nato
Removed Personal Attack
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Lifted Up
Nato, could you help me? I can't find where Jeff did or said anything like that, so maybe you are replying to someone else's post? Or maybe I DID miss something Jeff said, in which case a quote from him would help. Seriously, at my age I am capable of missing something once in a while...or so my oldest son tells me!
Edited by modbakerRemoved quote of personal attack
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WordWolf
Nato, I appreciate your sentiment, but I think you just read too much into the TITLE without reading
the opening post.
Here's part of it....
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Nato
I have to apologize. I was drinking last night when I wrote that. I must have gotten down to the third paragraph and got so worked up at t he thought that I just stopped reading. Sorry everyone. Don't drink and post.
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JeffSjo
Dear Nato,
I guess that I missed something here on this thread. If there really is a substantive point that you feel that needs to be said, I'll be happy to hear from you here at the greasespot.
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DontWorryBeHappy
DWBH - don't you agree with the idea that without healthy dissent that this was the only direction TWI could go?
My only experience outside TWI was with CES. Didn't CES start down the path of shutting down dissent relatively quickly? For me it was about the time it changed Dialog to Contender. I know for you it was earlier, but you had more insider info than I.
hiya tzaia!........i think that rhymes, doesn't it?
any group that does not facilitate "healthy dissent", imho, does so to institutionalize its philosophies and/or ideologies. the only possible outcome of this kind of psychodynamic is rabid group-think, which becomes completely self-serving, and acutely intolerant of any thinking which questions or threatens the accepted "thinking" of the group.
at its inception, ces was based on "healthy dissent"! after all, the members of the "original" ces bod, were well-known former "leaders" in twi, whose dissent from twi policies, procedures, and several key twi doctrines had become a matter of public record during the 18 months or so between the times of their departures from twi and the incorporation of the initial "incarnation" of ces. jalvis was the only one who seemed insistent upon building a "ministry" for ex-wayfers to cling to in order to continue "moving the word over the world"........the other original bod members were more interested in #1, getting the truth and facts "out in the open" about what vic, the twi bot, and twi were really all about, #2, trying to provide some kind of network for twi victims to obtain comfort and help with their own "separation anxieties" about leaving twi, and #3, provide a "clearinghouse" for continued study, "research", and teaching of the bible, without any prescribed doctrine, but rather a continued dialogue between and among christians of all denominations and theologies, minus an "enforced", centralized, hierarchical structure, which expected allegiance and collected monies. in hindsight, i'd have to admit, that our original concept of what ces could be was overly idealistic!.........there were just so many visceral responses , not only to the volume of information we were presenting in our exposure of vic's "ministry", and the realities that were twi, but also to the variouis individual cases of spiritual and sexual abuse that required far more professional and pastoral help than ces was ever able to provide!
as time marched on, the 4 ces bod members besides jalvis, quickly began to realize that we were not sufficiently prepared, personally or professionally to provide what was needed for our concept of ces to become actualized, nor were we sufficiently educated and trained to provide legitimate, genuine christian ministry to the rapidly growing number of twi refugees streaming out of twi's clutches.........jalvis disagreed strongly with us on this, and our bi-weekly conference calls became more like updates on what jalvis was doing and wanted ces to do, than they were brainstorming ways to actualize what we thought ces was supposed to be..........the momentus "issue" became a heated "bone of contention" beween the 4 of us and jalvis, as did his insistence upon expanding the bod to include schoenheit and the graeser's.........so, within just a few months of incorporating ces, the other 4 original members of the ces bod resigned, and/or "drifted away" from any involvement with what was becoming jalvis' "ministry", and charted our own courses to the future.
so, there really wasn't a "path of shutting down dissent" in ces at that time, imho........rather, it was more of a "non-hostile takeover" of ces by jalvis and his new bod buddies......the rest of us "original" bod members decided to "let it go", and two of us went back to school, and the other two worked on their careers and taking care of their families........none of us wanted anything to do with momentus, or the direction ces was heading under the "vision and direction" of jalvis and the new bod members.......and none us did take part in ces from late fall 1988 forward.........and none of us has to this day.........the evolution of ces into the twi offshoot it is today is totally the responsibility of jalvis, schoenheit and the graeser's............i thank god i was not and am not a part of that cult.........one cult in my lifetime is enough for me!...........hope that answers your question tzaia...........................................peace.
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Nato
I meant to say, I got to the third paragraph and stopped reading. If I had I would have realized how out of context my deleted comment was. Sorry!
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DontWorryBeHappy
deleted to avoid a double post!..........sowwy!
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Cynic
DWBH,
Was “jalvis” arrived at by joining the last syllable of “Elvis” to JAL’s initials, or is using “jalvis” to refer to JAL based on something else?
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DontWorryBeHappy
lohn came up with that nickname himself, by doing exactly what you suggested.......putting the "vis" of elvis at the end of his (john's) initials........he did this for the first time when he was the corps coordinator at emporia, and appeared as an "elvis impersonator" doing his schtick for an in-house talent show or something like that.............i thought that nickname was just so fitting, i've always called john by that nickname since........sorry if my old habit was confusing for any of you greasespotters!................ok...........back to the topic now!.........LOL!............................................peace.
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JeffSjo
Recently a friend asked me, as it applies to Wierwille, "How can we REALLY know what was on a man's heart?"
As a Christian, I believe that the Lord himself will have the final say as to what was on his heart. Even if I was not a Christian, I would hope that I would consider it wise to not speculate too much about a man that I never even talked too!
But I've been considering one scripture that I think is worth considering, no matter what your world view happens to be.....
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT.
As Wierwille has come and gone, run his course if you will, we have the right and responsibility to do our part and consider the matter. I think it might be boorish or even annoying for me to attempt to repeat the things that many of you know by personal experience much better than me what he was like behind closed doors.
But I consider myself to be PFAL fruit, but I must admit that Wierwille was disingenuous about where he got his information and had no right to allow himself to ever be considered as MOGFODAT. It makes it appear clear to me what Wierwille's character was when I can plainly see all the puffed up, lying, brow beating, mind-game playing, life ruining, and blindly ambitious leaders that deserve to be considered Wierwille's progeny.
YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT.
This was sooo well said IMO DWBH that it seems worth repeating as knowing them by their fruit, along with your up close and personal experience that I am so very glad that you are willing to share with us. PEACE.....
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T-Bone
Good point, Jeff…and according to Jesus, a person's actions are a pretty good indicator of what's been on their heart:
Matthew 15:15-20 NASB
15 Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."
16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
I agree, the Lord will have the final say so on matters of the heart. However, reading the verses that lead up to the above passage it seems to me our Lord is talking about Christians being able to discern hypocrisy right here and now.
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JeffSjo
One thing about this topic that I continue to consider is the realization that in order for us to see and perceive these things there must have been a ministry that turned corrupt. I can only pray for and seek to support the victims of TWI abuse, realizing it must be a hard thing having had to suffer these things.
In this case IMO the seeds for destruction for TWI were hidden in Wierwille's heart at the outset of the ministry. Looking back, it seems clear to me that Wierwille himself was hurt by the people that he taught how to rule. And even more, he seemed to feel it was necessary to distance himself from these bastards who were not nearly as skilled at projecting a convincing portrait of Godliness while simultaneously sating their lusts at many people's expense as he was.
(added in editing)
Dear T-Bone,
Hypocrites indeed!
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RainbowsGirl
This is very well stated Jeff and even though we carried with us many wounds and scars we learned valuable
lessons as well; Some we didn't need or want and some that will serve us well to know. Some of these were:
1. We learned For sure, how NOT to behave toward GOD or mankind; along with a very long list of NOT to do's!
2. We learned how to survive, and to heal and to help others to as well.
3. We learned to use greater wisdom and to know that if your questions and concerns are being avoided diminished or dismissed; that GOD probably was summarily dismissed too along with them and You.
4. We learned Enough Bible to know GOD and to know that He was not first in the grand scheme of it all; and that they left Jesus Christ out almost entirely.
5. We learned that they did not live up to their promises... an example would be: instead of signs wonders and miracles from a leadership level we received all manner of threats abuses and condemnations; and even eventually the blame for all that lacked in the fulfillment of promises made.
6.We learned that when the practical of GOD's Word isn't there the doctrinal is an empty front, disguising something sinister underneath it.
7. We learned that when people You loved early on grow cold, calloused and cruel with deeper commitments and involvement, something is gravely wrong.
8 We learned that with the recognition of evil, that it is our responsibility to expose it for what it is, so that all are warned and may avoid it and recover from it.
9.We learned not to expose evil and wrong in a boastful manner for by the grace of GOD go I. That if the tempter whispered in our ears in like or some other manner we may have been enticed to it all of or been part this evil.
10. We learned this:Jam 1:12 ¶ Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
11. We Learned that there will be absolute repercussion and definite pay back for crossing, being at odds with or opposing or questioning a leader or anyone else with an inferiority complex, disguised as a superior being at least in their own mind...That the consequences were usually banning, marking and avoiding and permanent isolation.
12. We learned that these tactics and stategies are an abomination to GOD and He will absolutely avenge every evil work.
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JeffSjo
Thanks for that Rainbowsgirl!!!
I don't seem to have much to say right now, but I will surely think on your answer now.
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JeffSjo
Simply and briefly asked, are there any faults in TWI that cannot be traced back to it being started by a sociopathic sexual predator like Wierwille who presumed to teach people the Bible.
Oh yeah, not just that, he plagiarized, desired to be the big dog, crushed people like it was a game that he had the right to carry out, and fooled most all of us that he was a Man of God.
How can anyone deal with TWI honestly without seeing that it's faults are a direct result of Wierwille's problems?
It fits for me.
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WordWolf
That's it- to do otherwise is to deal DIShonestly with twi.
Some people are more COMFORTABLE to be deceptive, to lie to themselves,
in order to feel COMFORTABLE.
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now I see
Word.
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