I have had similar experiences, but mainly from people, not therapists. People tend to kinds freak out if you say you were involved in a cult - almost like maybe it's catching, or you just said you were a child molester or somehow tainted. That there is something wrong with YOU as a person - we all must be terribly flawed to have joined a CULT.
But as you said, there are many kinds of people who joined up with twi - some professional, intelligent individuals, some not so much. I always ask people who freak out what they think about kids that were born into that situation who just didn't have a choice? Are they "flawed" by the flaw of their parents?
I started going to therapy almost a year ago, and at the first visit, she told me that I had been "spiritually wounded" by my experiences in twi. This is an actual REAL term used by psychologists - and knowing that I was not alone in the problem really helped me. She had not dealt with cults per se, but had helped a lot of people who had been in abusive church systems in the area I was... it was the same thing to her.
Any mental health professional who would put judgement on a person who is asking for help to their face is not someone I would consider professional enough to see for help. Maybe things have changed since you last looked for help - maybe they have discovered there is an actual need for people who have been spiritually wounded.
Heck, a little over 20 years ago, they had only just figured out that sexual harassment was wrong... That started in the 80s, right? (I'm not all that good with dates, so I could be completely off on this.)
I have been away from twi for 10 years now and for me it depends on the one to whom I'm speaking as well as whether or not they need to know.
In the beginning I wasn't clear on whether to wear the experience as a badge or a bandaide.
Putting the information together for a project to bypass several of my college classes was difficult and cathartic at the same time. The professors didn't really care, even if a little fascinated; they just wanted proof of living some of the information in the classes I was asking to get out of.
When I started seeing a therapist, it took three to find the right fit, and in hindsight, I accept part of the responsibility for that, as I just couldn't figure out what was wrong and what was right and what I needed, so grief counseling was finally the fit. My situation was unique in that I was dealing with the death of my husband as well as finding my footing out in the "real" world.
I agree, it's not something that most people want to hear about and we do have to temper it with other information and/or reality.
Sometimes people respond with "oh" and suddenly have to go and locate something they lost 3 miles back in their lives.
One friend is in the same degree program I did (psychology/human service) and he has interviewed me several times, as well as taken me to class for his visual aid. THAT was wierd, but helpful to future therapists, maybe.
My parents and brothers don't like to talk about "that time in Shellon's life" either. I'm home, safe, its in the past, that's what matters to them. And in some respects they're right.
One brother is fond of saying that I have never experienced anything bad in this life, I don't get how tough things can really be.
A friend I grew up with is fascinated! with the story and calls often to ask more questions. But she is unique, too, in that she's a writer, a published author, so she's a lover of great stories. She doesn't "get" it, but she's cheap therapy! :)
She also says things like "I can't believe YOU got involved in that". But she's right.
Another thing I consider in considering telling my story is that people, in general, think of cults as Jim Jones, Manson, selling flowers at the airport, living together in ratty building growing good dope and who really is the father of the children.
That alone gives people cause to pause and raise at least one eyebrow before they look at their timepiece and remember an appointment somewhere else. Or those that act like they might catch it if they stand next to us too long.
The human condition is like that, I think. If we don't understand it, we can be afraid of it. Acceptance takes time and attention and the willingness to really hear the story.
Job interviews can be tough too, huh? For me I stayed home and raised babies, so I can fill that gap of time with that reason on my resume. I have said a time or four "I found myself involved in a religious cult' and the human resource person's eyeballs said "we'll call you, don't call us" pretty fast. Then again, some of the experiences are good, when I can say that I have 16 years of experience coordinating events.
Maybe, newlife, we each have to find a place for our own past in this regard. Maybe we can re-word a few things for those that we choose to invite into that part or those that think they got the invitation even when they didn't.
It's all so unique and individual, isn't it, and yet the same, but perhaps the only thing that's the same is the name of the organization.
I wore my Greasespot Cafe tshirt when Kelly and I were wandering around last night and, like almost always, someone asked "what's that site?". I usually say something like 'oh, a site for above average genius people who like to sit around talking about life events'
I just had something on my mind this morning. And that was I wondered if any of you had the response that I did when I told people I was in a "cult". I wanted to talk about it and "get it out" of me. I wanted people to understand what I had been through. I wanted some type of support from people. But, I found most people didn't want to really hear about it.....most people just didn't believe it was could of been all that bad. Really found people to be ignorant of this and other groups. I couldn't even find a therapist who would say they could help me with it. Now having just gotten out of the ministry.......I was confused, angry, hurt, and didn't know what to do with it all. Didn't know what the solutions were. I even eventually even got a job working as a receptionist with psychologists and when I asked one if he knew of someone who could help someone with this background, his response was well, no I don't. We just don't have that problem in this area. I was dumbfounded!! Little does he know that there are probably 100's of people in this area that have this background......even from abusive churches. Here's something else I have experienced......Instead of people looking at the group and saying how screwed up that was....they look at you and say, how could YOU have ever gotten involved with something like that. I became the one to have surely had something wrong with me to have gotten mixed up with a group like that. I was in long enough to know....there was no set type of person that you can say was the type to have gotten involved. I saw Drs, Lawyers, sports people, salespeople, businessowners......Anyone could have been a participant. But, that's not the most common response I've gotten.
I think this is hard to deal with......cause it says our greatest hurt isn't really "that important". Maybe that was my interpretation....and that's not the case at all. I don't know.
I've been out now for 21 years.......still dealing with "left overs"....but these are some of the things I experienced in my departure and I just thought it might help others to know they are not alone.
What has been your experience???
Thanks!!
Newlife
If I were paying someone to hear my problems, they better be interested! :) But I think you're average Joe Doaks doesn't care all that much. There's an old saying "laugh and the world laughs with you, weep and you weep alone." I think the average person doesn't want to hear mourning and whining especially over decades old events; they probably figure the page should be turned already. They have their own problems to deal with as well. For me, understanding the fact that God is always there and people are not, helps. Scriptures I learned in twi help, like "casting all your care upon Him for he careth for you". "You become what you look at", somebody said that once. :) "Turn your eyes upon Jesus"...
You really nailed it, newlife. I think one of the reasons people usually don't understand it is because they don't have a concept of how mind control and behavior modification works. Hollywood has created a mystique that conjures up images of zombie-like people in trances. Even here at GSC, there are people who refuse to believe they were ever victims of "brainwashing" and insist they were always in control of their own actions.(And these are folks who were actually there!!)
I used to work with someone who had also been in a cult (not TWI) that used similar techniques.
We got onto the subject of cults one day and discovered we had this commonality in our backgrounds.
It was like an spontaneous camaraderie sprouted right there on the spot.
I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for but that's my 2 cents.
Wonderful advice to people Oldies - to just get over it. This time you couched it nicely in scripture.
To answer your question, in TWI we really didn't have boundaries. In other words, we had many good friends we could discuss anything with. After being involved in TWI from age 15 to my thirties, after I left, it was going to ACOA meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) that a natural man friend had invited me to, to go with him, that really opened my eyes about boundaries and how the world and "natural man" works - i.e., their social rules, which are much different than TWI's social rules. I think many long-term TWI people don't realize the difference.
First, I never mention my "cult" experience to anyone unless I have known them a long time and they are a very good friend. Of course, I will tell people I'm Christian, no problem, but no mention of TWI.
Most people who are not friend or family could really care less what you've been through and do not want someone's burden added to them - I know that may seem hard to believe or callous, but its mostly true.
I talked with family, close friends, and other ex-twi folks I knew. Sometimes talking about it with others who had been through it over time is very healing. If you feel you need more, I would look up some psychiatry/psychology associations and find a therapist who specializes in cults or something of that nature and go see them. You should be able to find someone close to you.
To answer your question, in TWI we really didn't have boundaries. In other words, we had many good friends we could discuss anything with. After being involved in TWI from age 15 to my thirties, after I left, it was going to ACOA meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) that a natural man friend had invited me to, to go with him, that really opened my eyes about boundaries and how the world and "natural man" works - i.e., their social rules, which are much different than TWI's social rules. I think many long-term TWI people don't realize the difference.
YES! Thank you, Sunesis! I never really thought about it this way, but it makes sooooo much sense! I was raised in twi, and sometimes I bemoan the fact I don't have as many CLOSE friends like I used to... well, that is probably normal, because in twi, you said whatever to whoever and everyone was in everybody else's business. The real world doesn't work like that - and it's probably a good thing it doesn't. There are too many people out there who are not nice who could take the information you tell them and use it to hurt you (much like what happened all the time in twi.)
I also, do not talk to people about my experiences within twi unless they were also a part of it at one point. People just do not understand, and for the most part do not want to be bothered. Greasespot is a good place for speaking about your experiences, though.
Wonderful advice to people Oldies - to just get over it. This time you couched it nicely in scripture.
To answer your question, in TWI we really didn't have boundaries. In other words, we had many good friends we could discuss anything with. After being involved in TWI from age 15 to my thirties, after I left, it was going to ACOA meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) that a natural man friend had invited me to, to go with him, that really opened my eyes about boundaries and how the world and "natural man" works - i.e., their social rules, which are much different than TWI's social rules. I think many long-term TWI people don't realize the difference.
First, I never mention my "cult" experience to anyone unless I have known them a long time and they are a very good friend. Of course, I will tell people I'm Christian, no problem, but no mention of TWI.
Most people who are not friend or family could really care less what you've been through and do not want someone's burden added to them - I know that may seem hard to believe or callous, but its mostly true.
I talked with family, close friends, and other ex-twi folks I knew. Sometimes talking about it with others who had been through it over time is very healing. If you feel you need more, I would look up some psychiatry/psychology associations and find a therapist who specializes in cults or something of that nature and go see them. You should be able to find someone close to you.
Of course, stick around here too!
I never mentioned it for a long time either, then I tentatively mentioned it without any names attached and there wasn't too much response. I got bolder and one day I actually mentioned it, there was a definite response. To those old enough to have been in a ministerial position at that particular time, they remember it and it then paints you with the same colors, even if you no longer have anything to do with it, however, for those that are younger, it doesn't really sync with them. I still say be careful who you admit it to, it can still come back and bite you in the butt.
First, I never mention my "cult" experience to anyone unless I have known them a long time and they are a very good friend. Of course, I will tell people I'm Christian, no problem, but no mention of TWI.
This has been my approach with people as well. People understand it better if I frame it this way:
I was involved in a religious organization for over twenty years, invested a lot of time, energy, and money into trying to fix something that was going bad, and I eventually left it when I felt it was becoming cult-like and abusive.
That, they understand.
What I have found in talking to folks, is that most people do not think they are vulnerable to being seduced by a cult. They think they are too smart to fall for a ruse, and they have stereotypical ideas of what a cult should be like and what a cult member should be like. They think there is something fundamentally different between themselves and someone who would "fall" for a cult. Or that a cult would be filled with glassy-eyed robotic people who are cookie-cutter images of each other and behave in a stereotypical and immediately identifiable fashion.
When they voice those views, I tell them that their specific mindset makes them especially vulnerable to being seduced. Their stereotypical ideas ensure they will never see it coming when it does.
THAT raises some eyebrows and then they are willing to listen. It certainly shook up my social psychology class and was backed up by the professor.
the most common response I ever got when I told somebody I was in a cult was, "Oh yeah? ... Hey, did you see Futurama last night?"
Really, I don't think the average Joe much gives a damn. At least I've never found anybody who did. I've had a hard time finding people who had ANY reaction to my big secret. I think for the most part, they don't have any inkling of the depths of involvement cult life demands, and hence, don't really appreciate the significance of the "confession".
That being said, personally I don't think I carry much baggage from my time in WayWorld anymore. It was a stupid thing I did, and I wasted a lot of years that sure could have been better spent. But I'm long past it now, and fortunately, without any really lasting scars. Too bad everybody can't say the same. Some of us got wounded much worse than others.
I would tend to take issue with part of your statement though. I think there IS a common trait, to a greater or lesser extent, in all of us that joined up with the MOGster Fan Club. Just exactly what it is, I'm not entirely sure, a certain degree of submissiveness, a lack of confidence in some area, a bit too credulous maybe. I don't know really, but I think that there ARE some who are immune to cult infestation of the brain. Unfortunately, you and I weren't among them...
Hypocatastasis is a figure of speech that by implication declares or implies a resemblance, representation or comparison. It differs from a metaphor, because in a metaphor the two nouns are both named and given; while, in hypocatastasis, only one is named and the other is implied, or as it were, is put down underneath out of sight. Hence hypocatastasis is an implied resemblance or representation: that is an implied simile or metaphor. A hypocatastasis has more force than a metaphor or simile, and expresses as it were a superlative degree of resemblance.
Bullinger gives the following example: one may say to another, “You are like a beast.” This would be simile, tamely stating a fact. If, however, he said, “You are a beast” that would be metaphor. But, if he said simply, “Beast!” that would be hypocatastasis, for the other part of the simile or metaphor (“you”), would be implied and not stated. This figure, therefore, is calculated to arouse the mind and attract and excite the attention to the greatest extent.
For more information see Ethelbert William Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (London; New York: Eyre & Spottiswoode; E. & J. B. Young & Co., 1898), 744.
HMMMMM! Curiously, if you change the word "beast" to the word "dog", you have an almost verbatim VPW quote from PLAF (The Wonder Class). Now, is that LIKE a coincidence or IS that a coincidence?
oops! Dooj beat me to it. Let's see, now, "If any two shall agree------"
She referenced her source, that being our lessons in Figures of Speech(the class). That particular source is a well known reference amongst this community. Were you fooled into thinking these words originated with her?
The few people I have told are people that I have begun to get close to at church. Normally it is related to our discussion for it to come up. Most people I have told have reacted with compassion and understanding because most of them have had some experiences in different churches where things were getting too controlling, too legalistic and they can relate to those aspects. Others are surprised and want to learn what it was like to heal from my experiences and what I have learned so far. No one has been condescending or patronizing.
Sometimes I just say something vague without saying the cult part. I was in a small meeting with my pastor and about 6 other people. The pastor and 2 others knew about twi. Four others didn't. I related my WOW experience as my missionary time in Lexington with a previous group.
HMMMMM! Curiously, if you change the word "beast" to the word "dog", you have an almost verbatim VPW quote from PLAF (The Wonder Class). Now, is that LIKE a coincidence or IS that a coincidence?
I actually heard VP give this explanation in a live teaching, even using the word "beast" as the example.
Sometimes I just say something vague without saying the cult part. I was in a small meeting with my pastor and about 6 other people. The pastor and 2 others knew about twi. Four others didn't. I related my WOW experience as my missionary time in Lexington with a previous group.
I completely understand... a lot of times if I am going to talk about my time in twi I simply refer to it as a church I was once involved in... that I am no longer a part of because of how controlling they were. People understand that, and can relate, but they seem to have a hard time relating to anything branded a "cult."
Very good point about the stereotypes, thus not seeing it coming Catcup!
I agree, I think if someone really wants to know, telling them you were in a church that was becoming too controlling is something people can easily relate to.
For those thinking of leaving, if you interview, just say you worked for a non-profit religous group. People don't usually care, plenty of those around.
But back to TWI, in TWI we made what I call "instant" friends. With most adults, making new friends takes time, but in TWI, you met someone and if you liked each other, right away, new best friend! And we did have a lot. I think that's a problem when people leave. In the world there are no instant best friends. You can find instant comaraderie at a bar, which I consider false friendship when morning's light dawns. But unless you grew up with people or went to school with them, the friendships like we had in TWI are few and far between.
I've found, though that even in the "world," God seems to bring the right people into my life.
To answer your question, in TWI we really didn't have boundaries. In other words, we had many good friends we could discuss anything with. After being involved in TWI from age 15 to my thirties, after I left, it was going to ACOA meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) that a natural man friend had invited me to, to go with him, that really opened my eyes about boundaries and how the world and "natural man" works - i.e., their social rules, which are much different than TWI's social rules. I think many long-term TWI people don't realize the difference.
Good points about boundaries, Sunesis. You seem to have a lot of wisdom on this topic. I have a slightly different experience about TWI friendships. True it was easy to make friends in the way - it's what's called a "closed society" where what you do encompasses every part of your life - work, social, even family. Some police and military folks live like that.
But I found after I got out that what I thought were really deep friendships in the way were pretty superficial. We had a lot of fun and did cool stuff - but never talked about our true selves (because the way wouldn't approve of us knowing our true selves) so my connections, in retrospect were more superficial than I thought at the time.
Absolutely My3cents. Many best friends, when it came down to it were very superficial. When they found I had left TWI they would not talk to me. But, I had expected that so I was not surprised. At the end, I thought about all the people I had known and was "friends" with. When all was said and done, I realized that probably 3-5 were true, lifelong friends. And over the years, since I have left, it has shrunk a bit more.
I also think that our natural man families were so minimized in TWI, I thank God for them now.
Sometimes, jokingly, around the rowdy guys I work with in construction, I tell 'em that "I was a teenage cult leader", which always makes 'em laugh. That's usually a response that I give when they ask; "What brought you to Alaska"? But when they say; "A cult? Really"? I just say; "Well, let's just say that it was a Bible group that the denominational churches didn't like". And it rarely goes farther than that, because most guys get uncomfortable talking about religion. With other friends, closer ones, we rarely mention the name of The Way because they might go and google it, and with so much negative stuff out here ( on the Net) now on The Way, we figure that it would stir up thoughts that they need not be thinking about us. I hooked up with an old girlfriend (on the Net) down in Texas whose 14 y.o. daughter had been molested by her new step dad, my old flame's new husband (gawd!), and I have spent considerable time counseling my old friend with things I have learned from the Bible. But never would I dare tell her about The Way, just so that there would be no stumbling block for her should she google The Way or VP. And what's really cool, is that since she had nearly decided to "hate all men" (can ya blame her after something as heinous as that? She caught the "man" screwing his daughter in the very act), a very nice man came into her life who absolutely dotes on her, loves her, is awesomely protective of her daughter and is a Penetcostal Christian/stoner who got her born again! I had wanted to get her hooked up with some Ex-Way friends down that way (D. Ewood's bunch), but just couldn't bring myself to do it and I am glad that I did not. There just seems to be way too much baggage that comes with The Way with knowledge from it's past. And so, God worked it all out, and she is very happy now. Also, the filthy little perp has now been thrown in jail and is registered as a sex offender (for those of you who may remember me posting that situation a couple of years back). The daughter is doing way better also and is now on the road to putting all of that in the past now that the trial is over.
A little de-rail there, sorry. Personally, as many of you know, I don't think of my past with The Way as something harmful to my present day life, therefore, I have no concern as to whether people don't care much about my involvement and have no desire to help me, for, I guess I don't feel that I have any need for help. Things that happened to others didn't happen to me, so because of that, I don't have the same problems that perhaps the author of this thread has. I do think that talking with others who have had the same experiences can be very helpful though, just like AA people talking with other AA people, for who can know your experience quite as well as someone else who has had the same experience?
Things that I know that you all can relate to that have been minor problems with my wife and myself because of our involvement with The Way are things like this:
1.) We got a late start on the career thing, as far as setting up for our future when we become geezers, but finally, I decided that it was okay to get a "real job".
2.) We had years of the habit of moving every year or two years because of assignments, and this habit carried over into our "post Way" life.
3.) We had the unreal habit of always expecting the best when it came to housing and always rented places that were nice (because God's best deserves the best!), but unrealistically ended up paying more than we could really afford. Finally, we bit the bullet and bought a mobile home, lived in it for a year, I improved it, and a year later sold it for a 13k profit which we then used to buy a real house.
And so, when our new found friends who are now already retiring because of their diligence in those departments from early on, we find that we are still in the middle of of getting that department squared away because of a ten year loss of not doing what they did. And I know that I can talk to many of you all about that because we had that similar experience that we had. Personally, I can't allow myself to get down about it, for if I had or continue to fell bad about it, then I wouldn't have been able to or continue to trust God to help us "catch up" like He most miraculously has in fact done.
But by all means Thread Author, communing with folks here on subject of your Way Involvement can be very helpful. So, keep a positive chin up and cheers!
I tell people a variety of things, depending on whether I think it's any of their business, what I think that they could handle, or just how good a friend that person is.
Since I decided to stay in Nebraska after a year as a WOW, and I'm from New York, many people are curious why I live here. Mostly I just tell them that I moved around a lot in my younger days and stopped in Nebraska when I met a woman and married her. This is not untrue, since I may have moved back East if I hadn't gotten married when I did.
I don't really have any big gaps in my employment history, since I wasn't in the Way Corps, except for being Apprentice 13. I was a WOW at 22, before really starting a career, so that doesn't raise any eyebrows. My career path isn't all that different from others who didn't have a degree, married young and had a lot of kids, so that doesn't set me apart either.
My current wife didn't blink an eye when I told her that I had been in a cult...part of the reason that she is my current wife.
What I think is ironic is that many people who think that I was an idiot for putting up with some of the things that I endured in TWI put up with similar things in their own lives, but don't see the similarity.
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JavaJane
I have had similar experiences, but mainly from people, not therapists. People tend to kinds freak out if you say you were involved in a cult - almost like maybe it's catching, or you just said you were a child molester or somehow tainted. That there is something wrong with YOU as a person - we all must be terribly flawed to have joined a CULT.
But as you said, there are many kinds of people who joined up with twi - some professional, intelligent individuals, some not so much. I always ask people who freak out what they think about kids that were born into that situation who just didn't have a choice? Are they "flawed" by the flaw of their parents?
I started going to therapy almost a year ago, and at the first visit, she told me that I had been "spiritually wounded" by my experiences in twi. This is an actual REAL term used by psychologists - and knowing that I was not alone in the problem really helped me. She had not dealt with cults per se, but had helped a lot of people who had been in abusive church systems in the area I was... it was the same thing to her.
Any mental health professional who would put judgement on a person who is asking for help to their face is not someone I would consider professional enough to see for help. Maybe things have changed since you last looked for help - maybe they have discovered there is an actual need for people who have been spiritually wounded.
Heck, a little over 20 years ago, they had only just figured out that sexual harassment was wrong... That started in the 80s, right? (I'm not all that good with dates, so I could be completely off on this.)
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Shellon
Hi newlife!
I have been away from twi for 10 years now and for me it depends on the one to whom I'm speaking as well as whether or not they need to know.
In the beginning I wasn't clear on whether to wear the experience as a badge or a bandaide.
Putting the information together for a project to bypass several of my college classes was difficult and cathartic at the same time. The professors didn't really care, even if a little fascinated; they just wanted proof of living some of the information in the classes I was asking to get out of.
When I started seeing a therapist, it took three to find the right fit, and in hindsight, I accept part of the responsibility for that, as I just couldn't figure out what was wrong and what was right and what I needed, so grief counseling was finally the fit. My situation was unique in that I was dealing with the death of my husband as well as finding my footing out in the "real" world.
I agree, it's not something that most people want to hear about and we do have to temper it with other information and/or reality.
Sometimes people respond with "oh" and suddenly have to go and locate something they lost 3 miles back in their lives.
One friend is in the same degree program I did (psychology/human service) and he has interviewed me several times, as well as taken me to class for his visual aid. THAT was wierd, but helpful to future therapists, maybe.
My parents and brothers don't like to talk about "that time in Shellon's life" either. I'm home, safe, its in the past, that's what matters to them. And in some respects they're right.
One brother is fond of saying that I have never experienced anything bad in this life, I don't get how tough things can really be.
A friend I grew up with is fascinated! with the story and calls often to ask more questions. But she is unique, too, in that she's a writer, a published author, so she's a lover of great stories. She doesn't "get" it, but she's cheap therapy! :)
She also says things like "I can't believe YOU got involved in that". But she's right.
Another thing I consider in considering telling my story is that people, in general, think of cults as Jim Jones, Manson, selling flowers at the airport, living together in ratty building growing good dope and who really is the father of the children.
That alone gives people cause to pause and raise at least one eyebrow before they look at their timepiece and remember an appointment somewhere else. Or those that act like they might catch it if they stand next to us too long.
The human condition is like that, I think. If we don't understand it, we can be afraid of it. Acceptance takes time and attention and the willingness to really hear the story.
Job interviews can be tough too, huh? For me I stayed home and raised babies, so I can fill that gap of time with that reason on my resume. I have said a time or four "I found myself involved in a religious cult' and the human resource person's eyeballs said "we'll call you, don't call us" pretty fast. Then again, some of the experiences are good, when I can say that I have 16 years of experience coordinating events.
Maybe, newlife, we each have to find a place for our own past in this regard. Maybe we can re-word a few things for those that we choose to invite into that part or those that think they got the invitation even when they didn't.
It's all so unique and individual, isn't it, and yet the same, but perhaps the only thing that's the same is the name of the organization.
I wore my Greasespot Cafe tshirt when Kelly and I were wandering around last night and, like almost always, someone asked "what's that site?". I usually say something like 'oh, a site for above average genius people who like to sit around talking about life events'
Not exacly the whole truth huh?
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cheranne
Yes,being spiritually wounded is real,its like getting your leg broken and having it fixed but in a way
that you can't walk(spiritually speaking)it has to be real broken and healed properly!
I don't know about some people but my heart was broken,it took decades to get to a place where
I felt free,
see my thread Getting real in Army Life under about the way .
I am now not into any organized religon but I have made my peace with God and enjoy my life now.
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oldiesman
If I were paying someone to hear my problems, they better be interested! :) But I think you're average Joe Doaks doesn't care all that much. There's an old saying "laugh and the world laughs with you, weep and you weep alone." I think the average person doesn't want to hear mourning and whining especially over decades old events; they probably figure the page should be turned already. They have their own problems to deal with as well. For me, understanding the fact that God is always there and people are not, helps. Scriptures I learned in twi help, like "casting all your care upon Him for he careth for you". "You become what you look at", somebody said that once. :) "Turn your eyes upon Jesus"...
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waysider
You really nailed it, newlife. I think one of the reasons people usually don't understand it is because they don't have a concept of how mind control and behavior modification works. Hollywood has created a mystique that conjures up images of zombie-like people in trances. Even here at GSC, there are people who refuse to believe they were ever victims of "brainwashing" and insist they were always in control of their own actions.(And these are folks who were actually there!!)
I used to work with someone who had also been in a cult (not TWI) that used similar techniques.
We got onto the subject of cults one day and discovered we had this commonality in our backgrounds.
It was like an spontaneous camaraderie sprouted right there on the spot.
I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for but that's my 2 cents.
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Sunesis
Wonderful advice to people Oldies - to just get over it. This time you couched it nicely in scripture.
To answer your question, in TWI we really didn't have boundaries. In other words, we had many good friends we could discuss anything with. After being involved in TWI from age 15 to my thirties, after I left, it was going to ACOA meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) that a natural man friend had invited me to, to go with him, that really opened my eyes about boundaries and how the world and "natural man" works - i.e., their social rules, which are much different than TWI's social rules. I think many long-term TWI people don't realize the difference.
First, I never mention my "cult" experience to anyone unless I have known them a long time and they are a very good friend. Of course, I will tell people I'm Christian, no problem, but no mention of TWI.
Most people who are not friend or family could really care less what you've been through and do not want someone's burden added to them - I know that may seem hard to believe or callous, but its mostly true.
I talked with family, close friends, and other ex-twi folks I knew. Sometimes talking about it with others who had been through it over time is very healing. If you feel you need more, I would look up some psychiatry/psychology associations and find a therapist who specializes in cults or something of that nature and go see them. You should be able to find someone close to you.
Of course, stick around here too!
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JavaJane
YES! Thank you, Sunesis! I never really thought about it this way, but it makes sooooo much sense! I was raised in twi, and sometimes I bemoan the fact I don't have as many CLOSE friends like I used to... well, that is probably normal, because in twi, you said whatever to whoever and everyone was in everybody else's business. The real world doesn't work like that - and it's probably a good thing it doesn't. There are too many people out there who are not nice who could take the information you tell them and use it to hurt you (much like what happened all the time in twi.)
I also, do not talk to people about my experiences within twi unless they were also a part of it at one point. People just do not understand, and for the most part do not want to be bothered. Greasespot is a good place for speaking about your experiences, though.
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brideofjc
I never mentioned it for a long time either, then I tentatively mentioned it without any names attached and there wasn't too much response. I got bolder and one day I actually mentioned it, there was a definite response. To those old enough to have been in a ministerial position at that particular time, they remember it and it then paints you with the same colors, even if you no longer have anything to do with it, however, for those that are younger, it doesn't really sync with them. I still say be careful who you admit it to, it can still come back and bite you in the butt.
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Catcup
This has been my approach with people as well. People understand it better if I frame it this way:
I was involved in a religious organization for over twenty years, invested a lot of time, energy, and money into trying to fix something that was going bad, and I eventually left it when I felt it was becoming cult-like and abusive.
That, they understand.
What I have found in talking to folks, is that most people do not think they are vulnerable to being seduced by a cult. They think they are too smart to fall for a ruse, and they have stereotypical ideas of what a cult should be like and what a cult member should be like. They think there is something fundamentally different between themselves and someone who would "fall" for a cult. Or that a cult would be filled with glassy-eyed robotic people who are cookie-cutter images of each other and behave in a stereotypical and immediately identifiable fashion.
When they voice those views, I tell them that their specific mindset makes them especially vulnerable to being seduced. Their stereotypical ideas ensure they will never see it coming when it does.
THAT raises some eyebrows and then they are willing to listen. It certainly shook up my social psychology class and was backed up by the professor.
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George Aar
I dunno,
the most common response I ever got when I told somebody I was in a cult was, "Oh yeah? ... Hey, did you see Futurama last night?"
Really, I don't think the average Joe much gives a damn. At least I've never found anybody who did. I've had a hard time finding people who had ANY reaction to my big secret. I think for the most part, they don't have any inkling of the depths of involvement cult life demands, and hence, don't really appreciate the significance of the "confession".
That being said, personally I don't think I carry much baggage from my time in WayWorld anymore. It was a stupid thing I did, and I wasted a lot of years that sure could have been better spent. But I'm long past it now, and fortunately, without any really lasting scars. Too bad everybody can't say the same. Some of us got wounded much worse than others.
I would tend to take issue with part of your statement though. I think there IS a common trait, to a greater or lesser extent, in all of us that joined up with the MOGster Fan Club. Just exactly what it is, I'm not entirely sure, a certain degree of submissiveness, a lack of confidence in some area, a bit too credulous maybe. I don't know really, but I think that there ARE some who are immune to cult infestation of the brain. Unfortunately, you and I weren't among them...
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waysider
It's like tryin' to tell a stranger 'bout Rock & Roll
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waysider
Ya know, for a guy who says we ought to just get over it and move on (yes, I know that's not a quote.) you sure seem touchy about the past, no?
BTW---I think the figure of speech that describes that comparison is hypocatastasis.
Here is a Wiki that shows how Bullinger defined it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocatastasis
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Hypocatastasis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hypocatastasis is a figure of speech that by implication declares or implies a resemblance, representation or comparison. It differs from a metaphor, because in a metaphor the two nouns are both named and given; while, in hypocatastasis, only one is named and the other is implied, or as it were, is put down underneath out of sight. Hence hypocatastasis is an implied resemblance or representation: that is an implied simile or metaphor. A hypocatastasis has more force than a metaphor or simile, and expresses as it were a superlative degree of resemblance.
Bullinger gives the following example: one may say to another, “You are like a beast.” This would be simile, tamely stating a fact. If, however, he said, “You are a beast” that would be metaphor. But, if he said simply, “Beast!” that would be hypocatastasis, for the other part of the simile or metaphor (“you”), would be implied and not stated. This figure, therefore, is calculated to arouse the mind and attract and excite the attention to the greatest extent.
For more information see Ethelbert William Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (London; New York: Eyre & Spottiswoode; E. & J. B. Young & Co., 1898), 744.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocatastasis"
Categories: Rhetorical techniques
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HMMMMM! Curiously, if you change the word "beast" to the word "dog", you have an almost verbatim VPW quote from PLAF (The Wonder Class). Now, is that LIKE a coincidence or IS that a coincidence?
oops! Dooj beat me to it. Let's see, now, "If any two shall agree------"
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oldiesman
Looks like Doojable plagiarzed Wikipedia.
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doojable
Actually, I had remembered most of it. I did check Wikipedia to make sure I had my facts straight. I should have used my own example. (Ape)
You are like an ape.
You are an ape.
Ape!
I should have posted the link like I normally do. I'm caught. At least I didn't write a class on it.
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waysider
She referenced her source, that being our lessons in Figures of Speech(the class). That particular source is a well known reference amongst this community. Were you fooled into thinking these words originated with her?
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penguin
Can I attempt to get the thread back on topic?
The few people I have told are people that I have begun to get close to at church. Normally it is related to our discussion for it to come up. Most people I have told have reacted with compassion and understanding because most of them have had some experiences in different churches where things were getting too controlling, too legalistic and they can relate to those aspects. Others are surprised and want to learn what it was like to heal from my experiences and what I have learned so far. No one has been condescending or patronizing.
Sometimes I just say something vague without saying the cult part. I was in a small meeting with my pastor and about 6 other people. The pastor and 2 others knew about twi. Four others didn't. I related my WOW experience as my missionary time in Lexington with a previous group.
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Mark Clarke
I actually heard VP give this explanation in a live teaching, even using the word "beast" as the example.
Coincidence!
(Not!)
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JavaJane
I completely understand... a lot of times if I am going to talk about my time in twi I simply refer to it as a church I was once involved in... that I am no longer a part of because of how controlling they were. People understand that, and can relate, but they seem to have a hard time relating to anything branded a "cult."
You say tomayto, I say tomahto...
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Sunesis
Very good point about the stereotypes, thus not seeing it coming Catcup!
I agree, I think if someone really wants to know, telling them you were in a church that was becoming too controlling is something people can easily relate to.
For those thinking of leaving, if you interview, just say you worked for a non-profit religous group. People don't usually care, plenty of those around.
But back to TWI, in TWI we made what I call "instant" friends. With most adults, making new friends takes time, but in TWI, you met someone and if you liked each other, right away, new best friend! And we did have a lot. I think that's a problem when people leave. In the world there are no instant best friends. You can find instant comaraderie at a bar, which I consider false friendship when morning's light dawns. But unless you grew up with people or went to school with them, the friendships like we had in TWI are few and far between.
I've found, though that even in the "world," God seems to bring the right people into my life.
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My3Cents
Good points about boundaries, Sunesis. You seem to have a lot of wisdom on this topic. I have a slightly different experience about TWI friendships. True it was easy to make friends in the way - it's what's called a "closed society" where what you do encompasses every part of your life - work, social, even family. Some police and military folks live like that.
But I found after I got out that what I thought were really deep friendships in the way were pretty superficial. We had a lot of fun and did cool stuff - but never talked about our true selves (because the way wouldn't approve of us knowing our true selves) so my connections, in retrospect were more superficial than I thought at the time.
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Sunesis
Absolutely My3cents. Many best friends, when it came down to it were very superficial. When they found I had left TWI they would not talk to me. But, I had expected that so I was not surprised. At the end, I thought about all the people I had known and was "friends" with. When all was said and done, I realized that probably 3-5 were true, lifelong friends. And over the years, since I have left, it has shrunk a bit more.
I also think that our natural man families were so minimized in TWI, I thank God for them now.
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J0nny Ling0
Sometimes, jokingly, around the rowdy guys I work with in construction, I tell 'em that "I was a teenage cult leader", which always makes 'em laugh. That's usually a response that I give when they ask; "What brought you to Alaska"? But when they say; "A cult? Really"? I just say; "Well, let's just say that it was a Bible group that the denominational churches didn't like". And it rarely goes farther than that, because most guys get uncomfortable talking about religion. With other friends, closer ones, we rarely mention the name of The Way because they might go and google it, and with so much negative stuff out here ( on the Net) now on The Way, we figure that it would stir up thoughts that they need not be thinking about us. I hooked up with an old girlfriend (on the Net) down in Texas whose 14 y.o. daughter had been molested by her new step dad, my old flame's new husband (gawd!), and I have spent considerable time counseling my old friend with things I have learned from the Bible. But never would I dare tell her about The Way, just so that there would be no stumbling block for her should she google The Way or VP. And what's really cool, is that since she had nearly decided to "hate all men" (can ya blame her after something as heinous as that? She caught the "man" screwing his daughter in the very act), a very nice man came into her life who absolutely dotes on her, loves her, is awesomely protective of her daughter and is a Penetcostal Christian/stoner who got her born again! I had wanted to get her hooked up with some Ex-Way friends down that way (D. Ewood's bunch), but just couldn't bring myself to do it and I am glad that I did not. There just seems to be way too much baggage that comes with The Way with knowledge from it's past. And so, God worked it all out, and she is very happy now. Also, the filthy little perp has now been thrown in jail and is registered as a sex offender (for those of you who may remember me posting that situation a couple of years back). The daughter is doing way better also and is now on the road to putting all of that in the past now that the trial is over.
A little de-rail there, sorry. Personally, as many of you know, I don't think of my past with The Way as something harmful to my present day life, therefore, I have no concern as to whether people don't care much about my involvement and have no desire to help me, for, I guess I don't feel that I have any need for help. Things that happened to others didn't happen to me, so because of that, I don't have the same problems that perhaps the author of this thread has. I do think that talking with others who have had the same experiences can be very helpful though, just like AA people talking with other AA people, for who can know your experience quite as well as someone else who has had the same experience?
Things that I know that you all can relate to that have been minor problems with my wife and myself because of our involvement with The Way are things like this:
1.) We got a late start on the career thing, as far as setting up for our future when we become geezers, but finally, I decided that it was okay to get a "real job".
2.) We had years of the habit of moving every year or two years because of assignments, and this habit carried over into our "post Way" life.
3.) We had the unreal habit of always expecting the best when it came to housing and always rented places that were nice (because God's best deserves the best!), but unrealistically ended up paying more than we could really afford. Finally, we bit the bullet and bought a mobile home, lived in it for a year, I improved it, and a year later sold it for a 13k profit which we then used to buy a real house.
And so, when our new found friends who are now already retiring because of their diligence in those departments from early on, we find that we are still in the middle of of getting that department squared away because of a ten year loss of not doing what they did. And I know that I can talk to many of you all about that because we had that similar experience that we had. Personally, I can't allow myself to get down about it, for if I had or continue to fell bad about it, then I wouldn't have been able to or continue to trust God to help us "catch up" like He most miraculously has in fact done.
But by all means Thread Author, communing with folks here on subject of your Way Involvement can be very helpful. So, keep a positive chin up and cheers!
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oldiesman
Jonny, your PM inbox is full, please clear out some so I can send you a PM.
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Oakspear
I tell people a variety of things, depending on whether I think it's any of their business, what I think that they could handle, or just how good a friend that person is.
Since I decided to stay in Nebraska after a year as a WOW, and I'm from New York, many people are curious why I live here. Mostly I just tell them that I moved around a lot in my younger days and stopped in Nebraska when I met a woman and married her. This is not untrue, since I may have moved back East if I hadn't gotten married when I did.
I don't really have any big gaps in my employment history, since I wasn't in the Way Corps, except for being Apprentice 13. I was a WOW at 22, before really starting a career, so that doesn't raise any eyebrows. My career path isn't all that different from others who didn't have a degree, married young and had a lot of kids, so that doesn't set me apart either.
My current wife didn't blink an eye when I told her that I had been in a cult...part of the reason that she is my current wife.
What I think is ironic is that many people who think that I was an idiot for putting up with some of the things that I endured in TWI put up with similar things in their own lives, but don't see the similarity.
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