I was talking to a friend from church today, and we were talking about baptism, specifically about how his sister is going to baptized into the Church soon. Stephanie was in the back of my mind and I got to thinking, "What does TWI have to say about baptism?" I've read that Wierwille taught that water baptism was completely unnecessary for Christians after Pentecost. Is this true, or is there more to it than this?
Wierwille taught that water baptism ended with Pentecost.
("For John baptized with water but ye shall be baptized in holy spirit".)
And, yes, "holy spirit" is not capitalized when using Wierdwillian logic.
According to VPW, the word "baptism" means "to be totally immersed".
Since God, THE Holy Spirit(capital H, capital S) gives his gift of holy spirit (lower case) with the new birth, we have "Christ in us" which makes us "completely, completely complete". 'Nother words, we were totally immersed in the gift of holy spirit when we were born again.
Wierwille went on to state that the indisputable evidence of the new birth is speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues, according to Wierwille, is but one of nine "manifestations" that are available to anyone who is born again.
The nine 'manifestations" are:
Utterance
1. Speaking in tongues. (used as as substitute for prayer in ones private prayer life.)
2. Tongues with interpretation (used in group settings)
3. Prophesy (Forth telling but never foretelling)
Revelation
1. Word of knowledge
2. Word of wisdom (what to do with word of knowledge)
3. Discerning of spirits (good and evil)
Action
1. The manifestation of believing ( the ability to believe for the impossible)
2. Working of miracles
3. gifts of healings
This is what he said replaced water baptism.
BTW----Wierwille plagiarized this entire subject right down to the very words in the definitions that are given in greater detail in the Advanced Class and led us to believe it was given to him personally by revelation from God.
Whew!!--That was probably more than you wanted to know.
He also taught that when the apostles baptized in water in the book of Acts, it was because they didn't yet understand that it was replaced. And specifically Peter was so excited about the Gentiles being involved for the first time, that he "forgot" they weren't supposed to be baptizing with water anymore, but remembered before it was carried out. Really! That's what was taught, and what many TWI offshoots still teach. (There are also some non-TWI groups that teach similar things, but they are not as common.)
I have written about this in detail on my website, as well as an even more detailed study that you can download if you want.
That's what he taught. I concur, along this same logic:
Not of works least any man should boast. Water baptism...works?
Baptism as a ritual of reognition and declaration of faith and intent isn't wrong though, at all, IMO. I think the "baptism" of the spirit in new birth can be demonstrated in meaningful ways by people of all cultures, times, etc.
I was talking to a friend from church today, and we were talking about baptism, specifically about how his sister is going to baptized into the Church soon. Stephanie was in the back of my mind and I got to thinking, "What does TWI have to say about baptism?" I've read that Wierwille taught that water baptism was completely unnecessary for Christians after Pentecost. Is this true, or is there more to it than this?
Hi Brushstroke,
In one respect I have to add that there is more to this IMO.
It's clear that Dr. taught that water baptism was uneccessary and out of date. Whether or not this is true is a big study.
But the thing that I remember clearly in TWI was that water baptism was LOOKED DOWN ON by many. It became a kind of religious snobbery.
To me the thing that beats the snobbery in regards to water baptism is pointing out that water baptism was GOD'S idea, not man's. And that it is very, very highminded to say that the disciples of Jesus Christ who first recieved the spirit were in any way uninformed.
Many of us were in this respect highminded buffoons IMO. I thank God for his mercy.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism. water or holy spririt?
Carnal (water) or spiritual baptism (holy spirit)
Not of works least any man should boast. Water baptism...works?
If it's works it is no more of grace.
First of all, Ephesians 4:4-6, to which you refer, is not talking about different forms of baptism, and whether or not there is more than one. It is talking about unity, saying that we all have one and the same Lord, the same spirit, the same faith, the same baptism, the same God and Father.
Secondly, there is no dichotomy between water baptism and spirit baptism in the Bible. Water baptism is not called carnal. I'm not saying that it is a work by which you get saved. It is something that we are commanded by our Lord to do, to publicly demonstrate our faith. It was done all throughout the book of Acts. Only Jesus baptizes with holy spirit, but the disciples also baptized new converts, and it was in water, in the name of Jesus Christ. They were doing so in obedience to their Lord's instructions.
Water baptism is cool if that is your way of displaying you convictions
but I am more convinced when I see someone helping their neighbor out of a ditch.
Faith without works....hmmm how about works without faith.
How about faith AND works? James says that works show our faith, and Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith UNTO good works. TWI taught (at least by their example, if not doctrinally) that our works are irrelevant. I don't believe that.
Also, I'm not suggesting that baptism is instead of helping our neighbor. Jesus said we should do that too. But baptism isn't just "my" way of demonstrating my convictions. Jesus commanded it, so we should obey him.
Christ is the end of the law to them that believe, our righteousness is of God through Christ.
I agree. But baptism was not part of the Law of Moses.
Works is good and pleasing to God if done in faith. Salvation is a free gift, not earned or acquired by anything we can or will do.
But if I thought it would encourage someone I would get water baptized once a week.
As I said, I don't believe it is a work to earn our salvation. It is one of the things we are told to do BECAUSE of our salvation.
In one respect I have to add that there is more to this IMO.
It's clear that Dr. taught that water baptism was uneccessary and out of date. Whether or not this is true is a big study.
But the thing that I remember clearly in TWI was that water baptism was LOOKED DOWN ON by many. It became a kind of religious snobbery.
To me the thing that beats the snobbery in regards to water baptism is pointing out that water baptism was GOD'S idea, not man's. And that it is very, very highminded to say that the disciples of Jesus Christ who first recieved the spirit were in any way uninformed.
Many of us were in this respect highminded buffoons IMO. I thank God for his mercy.
I agree. And sadly, this snobbery still exists in many of the offshoot groups. I wish they would take a good look at the Bible and see what baptism is really all about. In TWI, we had no idea what the point of it was, so we just belittled it and wrote it off as irrelevant "works."
Mark, what you mentioned is taught by Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, and Methodism but in different words. Brushstroke, wierwille took this teaching from Bullinger. Have you and Steph met face to face yet? Stay cool> In the words of DWBH(sorry if I just plagerized)-Peace.
Mark, what you mentioned is taught by Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, and Methodism but in different words. Brushstroke, wierwille took this teaching from Bullinger. Have you and Steph met face to face yet? Stay cool> In the words of DWBH(sorry if I just plagerized)-Peace.
He took this too?! Wow...
And no I haven't met Steph in person yet. We're going to meet in November, we think. Kind of far off, but since I canceled the reservation for the trip in May, the ticket itself is still good until March 20, 2009. So I can change the destination to anywhere in the US, but specifically for either Virginia or Florida, wherever she may be at the time and for whatever date is convenient for both of us. We're thinking late November-early December because we'll both be on our break from school for the holidays at that time.
While we're on the subject of baptism, what does TWI think of the other Sacraments? Namely, the Eucharist, Confirmation, Confession, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Marriage? I'm absolutely sure TWI doesn't view them in the same way, but still, what was Wierwille's theology regarding each one?
It is indeed snobbery to the extreme. If the Lord Jesus Christ had wanted to annul the practice, I would think that after he had fulfilled the OT prophecy concerning himself, that He would have stated the obvious to His disciples and furthermore that it would have been recorded for posterity.
I know I was baptized the first time with a dipper of water, the second time by the Holy Spirit, the third time, the TWI Dry Cleaning method and the fourth time, a water baptism that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself led me to receive when I was in India.
Then the last time, it was more of a reconfirmation process before the Lord.
It would seem to me that if water baptism was obsolete, the Lord Jesus wouldn't have led me to it in the first place.
Being raised Roman Catholic I was sprinkled as a baby, confirmed at 12 and I spoke in tongues while in twi at 16.
After leaving twi one of the first things I felt led to do was get baptized at my new church--for me it was a symbol of a new beginning, leaving the old twi stuff behind and a rededication of myself to my Lord after following men instead of Jesus Christ. It was very healing and refreshing for me. I didn't do it because I thought my salvation hinged upon it but I did feel like it was an important step of obedience for me.
I did spend time studying the Holy Spirit after leaving twi--and found out I was missing some important pieces. That's a whole other topic.
Sacraments:
The Way only officially had baby dedications-no baptism except getting born again.
Marriage was a ceremony that was supposed to be a lifetime commitment but leadership often pressured people who were married to "nonbelievers" or ex-ways to get divorces. TWI marriages are a lot shorter than Catholic ones, that's for sure!
Only confession is what you asked God for forgiveness for.
Communion was a time of remembrance and was for physical healing too but only normally done once a year.
No last rites--death is an enemy and should be fought against.
They also had no confirmation per se, but kids raised in TWI couldn't take the PFAL class until they were around 11 or 12, so it was often treated as a similar "coming of age" rite.
And as for Holy Orders, there's a whole thread about how ordination was handled in TWI.
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waysider
Wierwille taught that water baptism ended with Pentecost.
("For John baptized with water but ye shall be baptized in holy spirit".)
And, yes, "holy spirit" is not capitalized when using Wierdwillian logic.
According to VPW, the word "baptism" means "to be totally immersed".
Since God, THE Holy Spirit(capital H, capital S) gives his gift of holy spirit (lower case) with the new birth, we have "Christ in us" which makes us "completely, completely complete". 'Nother words, we were totally immersed in the gift of holy spirit when we were born again.
Wierwille went on to state that the indisputable evidence of the new birth is speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues, according to Wierwille, is but one of nine "manifestations" that are available to anyone who is born again.
The nine 'manifestations" are:
Utterance
1. Speaking in tongues. (used as as substitute for prayer in ones private prayer life.)
2. Tongues with interpretation (used in group settings)
3. Prophesy (Forth telling but never foretelling)
Revelation
1. Word of knowledge
2. Word of wisdom (what to do with word of knowledge)
3. Discerning of spirits (good and evil)
Action
1. The manifestation of believing ( the ability to believe for the impossible)
2. Working of miracles
3. gifts of healings
This is what he said replaced water baptism.
BTW----Wierwille plagiarized this entire subject right down to the very words in the definitions that are given in greater detail in the Advanced Class and led us to believe it was given to him personally by revelation from God.
Whew!!--That was probably more than you wanted to know.
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Mark Clarke
He also taught that when the apostles baptized in water in the book of Acts, it was because they didn't yet understand that it was replaced. And specifically Peter was so excited about the Gentiles being involved for the first time, that he "forgot" they weren't supposed to be baptizing with water anymore, but remembered before it was carried out. Really! That's what was taught, and what many TWI offshoots still teach. (There are also some non-TWI groups that teach similar things, but they are not as common.)
I have written about this in detail on my website, as well as an even more detailed study that you can download if you want.
http://godskingdomfirst.org/Baptism.htm
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jeast
Let's break it down even further
One Lord, one faith, one baptism. water or holy spririt?
Carnal (water) or spiritual baptism (holy spirit)
Not of works least any man should boast. Water baptism...works?
If it's works it is no more of grace.
Water baptism is cool if that is your way of displaying you convictions
but I am more convinced when I see someone helping their neighbor out of a ditch.
Faith without works....hmmm how about works without faith.
Christ is the end of the law to them that believe, our righteousness is of God through Christ.
Works is good and pleasing to God if done in faith. Salvation is a free gift, not earned or acquired by anything we can or will do.
But if I thought it would encourage someone I would get water baptized once a week.
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socks
That's what he taught. I concur, along this same logic:
Baptism as a ritual of reognition and declaration of faith and intent isn't wrong though, at all, IMO. I think the "baptism" of the spirit in new birth can be demonstrated in meaningful ways by people of all cultures, times, etc.
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JeffSjo
Hi Brushstroke,
In one respect I have to add that there is more to this IMO.
It's clear that Dr. taught that water baptism was uneccessary and out of date. Whether or not this is true is a big study.
But the thing that I remember clearly in TWI was that water baptism was LOOKED DOWN ON by many. It became a kind of religious snobbery.
To me the thing that beats the snobbery in regards to water baptism is pointing out that water baptism was GOD'S idea, not man's. And that it is very, very highminded to say that the disciples of Jesus Christ who first recieved the spirit were in any way uninformed.
Many of us were in this respect highminded buffoons IMO. I thank God for his mercy.
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Mark Clarke
First of all, Ephesians 4:4-6, to which you refer, is not talking about different forms of baptism, and whether or not there is more than one. It is talking about unity, saying that we all have one and the same Lord, the same spirit, the same faith, the same baptism, the same God and Father.
Secondly, there is no dichotomy between water baptism and spirit baptism in the Bible. Water baptism is not called carnal. I'm not saying that it is a work by which you get saved. It is something that we are commanded by our Lord to do, to publicly demonstrate our faith. It was done all throughout the book of Acts. Only Jesus baptizes with holy spirit, but the disciples also baptized new converts, and it was in water, in the name of Jesus Christ. They were doing so in obedience to their Lord's instructions.
How about faith AND works? James says that works show our faith, and Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith UNTO good works. TWI taught (at least by their example, if not doctrinally) that our works are irrelevant. I don't believe that.
Also, I'm not suggesting that baptism is instead of helping our neighbor. Jesus said we should do that too. But baptism isn't just "my" way of demonstrating my convictions. Jesus commanded it, so we should obey him.
I agree. But baptism was not part of the Law of Moses.
As I said, I don't believe it is a work to earn our salvation. It is one of the things we are told to do BECAUSE of our salvation.
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Mark Clarke
I agree. And sadly, this snobbery still exists in many of the offshoot groups. I wish they would take a good look at the Bible and see what baptism is really all about. In TWI, we had no idea what the point of it was, so we just belittled it and wrote it off as irrelevant "works."
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Mark, what you mentioned is taught by Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, and Methodism but in different words. Brushstroke, wierwille took this teaching from Bullinger. Have you and Steph met face to face yet? Stay cool> In the words of DWBH(sorry if I just plagerized)-Peace.
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Brushstroke
He took this too?! Wow...
And no I haven't met Steph in person yet. We're going to meet in November, we think. Kind of far off, but since I canceled the reservation for the trip in May, the ticket itself is still good until March 20, 2009. So I can change the destination to anywhere in the US, but specifically for either Virginia or Florida, wherever she may be at the time and for whatever date is convenient for both of us. We're thinking late November-early December because we'll both be on our break from school for the holidays at that time.
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Brushstroke
While we're on the subject of baptism, what does TWI think of the other Sacraments? Namely, the Eucharist, Confirmation, Confession, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Marriage? I'm absolutely sure TWI doesn't view them in the same way, but still, what was Wierwille's theology regarding each one?
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brideofjc
It is indeed snobbery to the extreme. If the Lord Jesus Christ had wanted to annul the practice, I would think that after he had fulfilled the OT prophecy concerning himself, that He would have stated the obvious to His disciples and furthermore that it would have been recorded for posterity.
I know I was baptized the first time with a dipper of water, the second time by the Holy Spirit, the third time, the TWI Dry Cleaning method and the fourth time, a water baptism that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself led me to receive when I was in India.
Then the last time, it was more of a reconfirmation process before the Lord.
It would seem to me that if water baptism was obsolete, the Lord Jesus wouldn't have led me to it in the first place.
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penguin
Well, let's see....
Being raised Roman Catholic I was sprinkled as a baby, confirmed at 12 and I spoke in tongues while in twi at 16.
After leaving twi one of the first things I felt led to do was get baptized at my new church--for me it was a symbol of a new beginning, leaving the old twi stuff behind and a rededication of myself to my Lord after following men instead of Jesus Christ. It was very healing and refreshing for me. I didn't do it because I thought my salvation hinged upon it but I did feel like it was an important step of obedience for me.
I did spend time studying the Holy Spirit after leaving twi--and found out I was missing some important pieces. That's a whole other topic.
Sacraments:
The Way only officially had baby dedications-no baptism except getting born again.
Marriage was a ceremony that was supposed to be a lifetime commitment but leadership often pressured people who were married to "nonbelievers" or ex-ways to get divorces. TWI marriages are a lot shorter than Catholic ones, that's for sure!
Only confession is what you asked God for forgiveness for.
Communion was a time of remembrance and was for physical healing too but only normally done once a year.
No last rites--death is an enemy and should be fought against.
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Mark Clarke
They also had no confirmation per se, but kids raised in TWI couldn't take the PFAL class until they were around 11 or 12, so it was often treated as a similar "coming of age" rite.
And as for Holy Orders, there's a whole thread about how ordination was handled in TWI.
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Cynic
Protestants tend to recognize only two sacraments: the Lord’s Supper and Baptism.
As for some unpacking of the significance of water baptism, I find Meredith Kline’s characterization of baptism as a “judicial ordeal” intriguing:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/Kline...OrdealPart1.htm
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/Kline...OrdealPart2.htm
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