My opinion is that the information in the book is not documentable/or has not been done, as such it is a one sided view, a personal testimony, opinion, which contains all or part truths. Clearly the intent is to make money, otherwise it would have been offered for free as a blog or a download.
If that is truly your opinion, then it is MY opinion that you have abandoned logic and honesty in favor of your bias...
Really lets examine logic is there documentation other than I say so, cause logic says if the other says I say not, then we have nothing but two sides of a story, Logic says if money was not a consideration then one would simple give it away. and yet that is not the case. It seems pretty logical to me ,perhaps you just don't like the truth it does not fit with your views, but that does not negate logic does it? Perhaps you have some better explanation?
...and your agenda, which is to defend the monster Wierwille at all costs.
Exactly where did I do so? I think I defended truth, and fairness in speech, I fail to see anywhere that I said Wierwille was right. Find It...... This is a typical switch, it never happened, what I did say is that there are two sides to every story and that one can't verify one as true without examining the other.
Considering this is a privately owned website (not a democracy)...you should consider yourself fortunate to still be allowed to post here at all...if I owned this site, you would be gone...along with oldies.
So who says I don't? Thankfully not everyone wants only one side of the story, it's pretty easy living life unchallenged in your views, Do you fear opinions other than yours or is there some other reason you want to silence any opposition to your way of thinking?
Which brings up another point that begs the question...considering the mission of this website, WHY would you want to be coming here to defend Wierwille?...By definition, you are a troll...it's my understanding that there are numerous pockets of glassy eyed Wierwille followers still sipping the koolaid in their "fellowships"...why not find one of them where people agree with your convoluted logic and your cult mentality?...instead of deliberately attempting to provoke anger with your pro-cult opinions...
Again you charge Wierwille defense I offered none for him here, you are imagining things.
You might ask your self why an opinion makes you angry?
Every time I read White Dove's opinion about a person's personal testimony I have to wonder what would satisfy him. Medical records? What about a therapists testimony? (While it could be flimsily argued that a person would write a book about personal tragedy for the money - few would spend thousands of dollars on a therapist hoping that one day they could write a book.)
Add to this particular scenario that these women of tricky vics usually knew each other or knew of each other. Some of the women (maybe Kris- I haven't read the book yet) had confidantes - friends they could confide in. It is entirely possible that there are corroborating testimonies and events.
A court record of guilt would do fine! I think everyone deserves their fair day in court not the internet court. Craig had his day and lost pretty fair and simple.
On the other hand, WD has not read the book. How does he know what is documented or documentable? Is he psychic?
I think the whole "it can't be documented" argument revolves around the fact that vp is being trashed and he isn't around to defend himself - poor baby. He put plenty of people in the position where they were helpless. The argument is weak - period.
I read WD's arguments and I shake my head in disbelief that anyone can be so dense. I wonder how it is that he can argue against the living personal testimony of a person and yet still claim to believe the Bible. So very little of it can be documented.
I think I've covered this many times Rubin Carter sat in jail for years because someone offered personal testimony and said so. Look on the internet as to how many accused have been freed on DNA samples held because people said so. People have agendas I say so does not equal it is the truth.. Everyone has a right to a fair hearing in this country. I support that right
Perhaps WhiteFowl would have been standing right next to Thomas as he demanded to stick his fingers in the wounds on Jesus's hands and feet. Maybe he would have demanded to see if the wounds were really made by a stake and not faked so that Jesus could become a major cult leader. Maybe he would have demanded that four or five people draw the scene on the spot to record the event for history.
The end result would have been the same. The words would have come back, "You have seen and you believe. Blessed are those that have not seen and yet still believe." (paraphrased from memory.)
(Edited to add that the previous is my opinion of the matter.)
QUOTE(WhiteDove @ Jun 23 2008, 12:14 PM) *
It has been proven in studies that such sharing's (positive experiences) help victims, in recovery as they are inspiring.
I guess that it is all in ones perspective. I think the moderators do the best that they can to keep gs a place of healing and benefit. We have to rely on them to be fair and honest in the enforcement of the policies. To me it looks like you guys have been finding ways to circumnavigate the rules for years in order to carry out your relentless campaign.
The loop holes and wiggle room are being closed tighter and tighter for disruptive and hurtful behavior.
But seriously... Is this not a good thing? In your ardor to protect wierwille and his memory, or mine in wanting to expose who and what he was .....do we really WANT to be hurtful or disrespectful or unkind to one another?
WD...this book is a testamony of a first hand experience...seeing you were not there, you have nothing to offer other than expressing doubt as to the author's honesty. This is not your word against her word...that's comparing apples to oranges.
Many people have written books relating experiences they have had in their lives...(and sold the books for money)...do you doubt EVERYONE of these author's honesty?...unless there is sufficient documentation to appease you?...If not, then why doubt this author's honesty?...does her story seem implausible to you?...do you already have a preconceived notion regarding the subject matter? You claim that you are not a Wierwille apologist but by casting doubt on this book's honesty...you are indeed defending Wierwille.
Her story is consistant with numerous other stories regarding this man's method of operation...you have to have blinders on in regards to the context of everthing else that has been presented over a period of years...unless of course, you have an agenda (which I believe you most certainly do) in defending Vic the abuser...
I haven't much to say. WD, you went over the line, in my opinion on the losing the way thread. I have given you lots of leeway over the years and very seldom do anything to stop your postings and you know that is true. I have not stopped you from saying the contrary, have I?
Oldies, your post deletion was preemptive. How you can possibly say that this has been going on for weeks is beyond me. When posters mentioned your sister inappropriately, wasn't I quick to remove the offending post? You remember what you want.
Bumpy, as usual, you are doing what you do best, stir the pot.
I'll address this to Pawtucket and no one else...... no response is necessary
I don't have much to say either. I know your preference is to do these things by email but since the message is out here now I'll do it here as well.
I have found you to be generally fair in your decisions, which is why I was surprised at your request. You think I crossed a line, I think I was in the boundaries of the rules, in the end it was your decision, you pay the bills. I'm good with that. I do have to say had it not been for the personal attack which I'll point out had nothing to do with the subject and the GreaseSpot mission I had no intention of posting there. Calling me or us a Wierwille apologist is the same thing as calling a black man a nigger to me. It's hate speech designed to produce exactly what it did. I did not tolerate being bullied while in the Way and I don't intend to start now. My opinion is that many here have the problems they do because they never stood up for their boundaries and they unfortunately now won't get that chance again no matter what goes on.
Every one of us that gets lumped into that category of a Wierwille apologist (despite the fact that most of us agree with many of the points made in regard to Wierwille/The Way with the exception of Mike maybe) have asked that we not be referred to as such, since it continues one can draw no other conclusion than it is an deliberate attempt to cause reaction, that was the case on your thread. And yet we are the ones who get the heat for stepping over the line when we point it out. I've said it before if one does not want to see the bull charge then don't wave red flags in front of it, and don't blame the bull when he does. If the intent of the thread was indeed to contain the mission of discussion of the book then I have to ask what purpose does allowing even today the cheap shots to continue ? Are they not disruptive to the subject as well? Why are they not gone and stopped as well if keeping the thread on topic is the goal?
This thread is an example it has nothing to do with MS. Skedgells book and yet it follows over here. And now pages later it is some how the Wierwille apologists fault for the ensuing battle. Look at the post trail see who brought up the book , It was none of us and I documented it at the start as such as I could see the direction it was headed in. That's not a complaint just a observation.... I'm a big boy and can take it as well as give it. In the end I won't loose any sleep over it. Ok maybe I had more to say than I thought........
WD...this book is a testimony of a first hand experience...seeing you were not there, you have nothing to offer other than expressing doubt as to the author's honesty. This is not your word against her word...that's comparing apples to oranges.
I think I said that is what it was, that however does not confirm either it as true or false just her story, opinion on the matter.
Many people have written books relating experiences they have had in their lives...(and sold the books for money)...do you doubt EVERYONE of these author's honesty?...unless there is sufficient documentation to appease you?...If not, then why doubt this author's honesty?...does her story seem implausible to you?...do you already have a preconceived notion regarding the subject matter? You claim that you are not a Wierwille apologist but by casting doubt on this book's honesty...you are indeed defending Wierwille.
Yes I take into consideration that money is a factor in a book promotion as such one needs to offer what the buyer is wanting.
Her story is consistant with numerous other stories regarding this man's method of operation...you have to have blinders on in regards to the context of everthing else that has been presented over a period of years...unless of course, you have an agenda (which I believe you most certainly do) in defending Vic the abuser...
So..... how many people does it take to make something true ? if I find several does that mean everything I say about you is true ? Doubtful.....So you really expect me to believe it is a numbers game the one with the most wins? I don't share your formula for truth Sorry.
Groucho, dooj, ws,wd,wd40, Dearly Beloved in the Lord...God loves us, Jesus loves us, roy loves us and so does the dali lama!
Try and think of the Cyber Cult Game (CCG) this Waay...if it wasn't for all the koolaid being consumed at the monster mash, none of us would be here having such a riot trying to club & hammer a guy already 20+ years in the grave. It's the residual effects of the drug! HE JUST NEVER DIES!!
Second, If these two guys everyone loves to hate (wd&om), who are possibly your gay brothers in Christ, want to rightly twist turn or divide their twi experiences into something positive, WHY NOT let them?? "Let Go and Let God"!! "All" with or w/o, b=r, etc. What's the fuss? It's all part of the Cult Cocktail Mix (CCM).
(Look at Jonny Lingo, used to be known as Johnny Jump Up, the new kid in town. He gets on stage, has a look around, stutters from stage fright, and heads out the door for another salmon bite at the river.)
This isn't supposed to be a democracy BUT a serious business discussion (SBD) of clearing the decks at twi, getting advertising support and increased postings ALL at the same time! (which will of course be equally distributed at a later date to the "household"!).
So, if the "opposition" quits in a huff...da entertainment show is ovvaa and da bills lose!! :(
(And looking at the markets and the US economy, ya don't want to play with the ad revenues...buttons!)
Try and think of the Cyber Cult Game (CCG) this Waay...if it wasn't for all the koolaid being consumed at the monster mash, none of us would be here having such a riot trying to club & hammer a guy already 20+ years in the grave. It's the residual effects of the drug! HE JUST NEVER DIES!!
Are you saying you find something technically disagreeable about wanting to club and hammer some little known scumbucket now 20 + years in the grave?
Personally, I wouldn't find it disagreeable if they opened the vicster's resting site at the fountain as a public "pay as you go" urinal..
if der vey ever falls on real hard financial times, they might consider it an option.. limited clientele, for sure, but a definite money maker..
That accusation of unfairness is rediculous. I`ll bet I have had just as many posts deleted as either of you. I have also been suspended, and my point of view cannot be more diametrically opposed to yours. How either if you can claim unfair treatment, based on your pov is beyond me.
You don`t want to be called an apologist, but by God you sure don`t mind calling others liars or exaggerators or whiners, or attack their veracity.
I mean, well, what if he really was still alive? Nothing that a little hammer and wooden stake, or silver bullets or something couldn't readily dispatch..
Same goes for me I guess. I suppose I've wronged a few people.. if they want to dance on my grave, I'll play the music..
from what I've come to learn about the vicster though.. he didn't deserve a decent burial..
check out the email contact at the bottom of the page.
at first I thought it was a gag.. but it wasn't April the first or anything.. then I got to thinking.. maybe it's the vicster reincarnated.. I emailed the guy.. said, is this a joke, or were you born around May 21 of 1985?
Don't you find this just a little "creepy"?
makes one want to check to see what's really buried under the fountain..
Wow i just wanted to welcome Jonny back from his 30 days in the hole and look what i walked into...what a dang drama..
Every time I read White Dove's opinion about a person's personal testimony I have to wonder what would satisfy him. Medical records? What about a therapists testimony? (While it could be flimsily argued that a person would write a book about personal tragedy for the money - few would spend thousands of dollars on a therapist hoping that one day they could write a book.)
...I read WD's arguments and I shake my head in disbelief that anyone can be so dense. I wonder how it is that he can argue against the living personal testimony of a person and yet still claim to believe the Bible.
It is sort of strange isnt it? What does 'belief in the bible " actually mean anyway?--
I read it and I see people that had empathy, compassion and helped people that were hurting..but IM not seeing a lot of belief in any of that.
Its hard actually to tell what people mean when they say they are 'bible believers'.
IMO quit talking and show me, otherwise its BS.
If what I see is someone attacking rape victims that doesnt do much to enhance the book that they supposedly "believe in"..maybe its a different translation they read than I have ever been exposed to..., whatever belief or book it is that makes people turn cold and 'without any natural affection' ,do me a favor and keep it far far away from me...
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geisha779
I heard a rumor that David repented and had some Godly sorrow for His sins. I missed TWI "LEADERSHIPs" sorrowful heart for the pain they caused. Even Jimmy Swaggart had the good manners to cry cro
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WhiteDove
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waysider
QUOTE(WhiteDove @ Jun 23 2008, 12:14 PM) *
It has been proven in studies that such sharing's (positive experiences) help victims, in recovery as they are inspiring.
[Bolded words added for clarification]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would it be too forward of me to ask for a sampling of these "studies"?
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WhiteDove
I have better things to do than chase them all down for you so you can argue every fine point ,you can look them up yourself.
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Grumpy
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rascal
I guess that it is all in ones perspective. I think the moderators do the best that they can to keep gs a place of healing and benefit. We have to rely on them to be fair and honest in the enforcement of the policies. To me it looks like you guys have been finding ways to circumnavigate the rules for years in order to carry out your relentless campaign.
The loop holes and wiggle room are being closed tighter and tighter for disruptive and hurtful behavior.
But seriously... Is this not a good thing? In your ardor to protect wierwille and his memory, or mine in wanting to expose who and what he was .....do we really WANT to be hurtful or disrespectful or unkind to one another?
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waysider
I wasn't the one who presented them as "proof".
I believe that puts the onus on you.
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GrouchoMarxJr
WD...this book is a testamony of a first hand experience...seeing you were not there, you have nothing to offer other than expressing doubt as to the author's honesty. This is not your word against her word...that's comparing apples to oranges.
Many people have written books relating experiences they have had in their lives...(and sold the books for money)...do you doubt EVERYONE of these author's honesty?...unless there is sufficient documentation to appease you?...If not, then why doubt this author's honesty?...does her story seem implausible to you?...do you already have a preconceived notion regarding the subject matter? You claim that you are not a Wierwille apologist but by casting doubt on this book's honesty...you are indeed defending Wierwille.
Her story is consistant with numerous other stories regarding this man's method of operation...you have to have blinders on in regards to the context of everthing else that has been presented over a period of years...unless of course, you have an agenda (which I believe you most certainly do) in defending Vic the abuser...
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WhiteDove
I'll address this to Pawtucket and no one else...... no response is necessary
I don't have much to say either. I know your preference is to do these things by email but since the message is out here now I'll do it here as well.
I have found you to be generally fair in your decisions, which is why I was surprised at your request. You think I crossed a line, I think I was in the boundaries of the rules, in the end it was your decision, you pay the bills. I'm good with that. I do have to say had it not been for the personal attack which I'll point out had nothing to do with the subject and the GreaseSpot mission I had no intention of posting there. Calling me or us a Wierwille apologist is the same thing as calling a black man a nigger to me. It's hate speech designed to produce exactly what it did. I did not tolerate being bullied while in the Way and I don't intend to start now. My opinion is that many here have the problems they do because they never stood up for their boundaries and they unfortunately now won't get that chance again no matter what goes on.
Every one of us that gets lumped into that category of a Wierwille apologist (despite the fact that most of us agree with many of the points made in regard to Wierwille/The Way with the exception of Mike maybe) have asked that we not be referred to as such, since it continues one can draw no other conclusion than it is an deliberate attempt to cause reaction, that was the case on your thread. And yet we are the ones who get the heat for stepping over the line when we point it out. I've said it before if one does not want to see the bull charge then don't wave red flags in front of it, and don't blame the bull when he does. If the intent of the thread was indeed to contain the mission of discussion of the book then I have to ask what purpose does allowing even today the cheap shots to continue ? Are they not disruptive to the subject as well? Why are they not gone and stopped as well if keeping the thread on topic is the goal?
This thread is an example it has nothing to do with MS. Skedgells book and yet it follows over here. And now pages later it is some how the Wierwille apologists fault for the ensuing battle. Look at the post trail see who brought up the book , It was none of us and I documented it at the start as such as I could see the direction it was headed in. That's not a complaint just a observation.... I'm a big boy and can take it as well as give it. In the end I won't loose any sleep over it. Ok maybe I had more to say than I thought........
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waysider
http://www.paulnoll.com/Books/Clear-Englis...ate-advice.html
Debate Rules and Suggestions
Advice on Debating with Others
1. Avoid the use of Never.
2. Avoid the use of Always.
3. Refrain from saying you are wrong.
4. You can say your idea is mistaken.
5. Don't disagree with obvious truths.
6. Attack the idea not the person.
7. Use many rather than most.
8. Avoid exaggeration.
9. Use some rather than many.
10. The use of often allows for exceptions.
11. The use of generally allows for exceptions.
12. Quote sources and numbers.
13. If it is just an opinion, admit it.
14. Do not present opinion as facts.
15. Smile when disagreeing.
16. Stress the positive.
17. You do not need to win every battle to win the war.
18. Concede minor or trivial points.
19. Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling.
20. Watch your tone of voice.
21. Don't win a debate and lose a friend.
22. Keep your perspective - You're just debating.
You need to be very polite when disagreeing with someone in English, even someone you know quite well.
With someone you know very well, you can disagree more directly.
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WhiteDove
So..... how many people does it take to make something true ? if I find several does that mean everything I say about you is true ? Doubtful.....So you really expect me to believe it is a numbers game the one with the most wins? I don't share your formula for truth Sorry.
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Grumpy
Groucho, dooj, ws,wd,wd40, Dearly Beloved in the Lord...God loves us, Jesus loves us, roy loves us and so does the dali lama!
Try and think of the Cyber Cult Game (CCG) this Waay...if it wasn't for all the koolaid being consumed at the monster mash, none of us would be here having such a riot trying to club & hammer a guy already 20+ years in the grave. It's the residual effects of the drug! HE JUST NEVER DIES!!
Second, If these two guys everyone loves to hate (wd&om), who are possibly your gay brothers in Christ, want to rightly twist turn or divide their twi experiences into something positive, WHY NOT let them?? "Let Go and Let God"!! "All" with or w/o, b=r, etc. What's the fuss? It's all part of the Cult Cocktail Mix (CCM).
(Look at Jonny Lingo, used to be known as Johnny Jump Up, the new kid in town. He gets on stage, has a look around, stutters from stage fright, and heads out the door for another salmon bite at the river.)
This isn't supposed to be a democracy BUT a serious business discussion (SBD) of clearing the decks at twi, getting advertising support and increased postings ALL at the same time! (which will of course be equally distributed at a later date to the "household"!).
So, if the "opposition" quits in a huff...da entertainment show is ovvaa and da bills lose!! :(
(And looking at the markets and the US economy, ya don't want to play with the ad revenues...buttons!)
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Ham
Are you saying you find something technically disagreeable about wanting to club and hammer some little known scumbucket now 20 + years in the grave?
Personally, I wouldn't find it disagreeable if they opened the vicster's resting site at the fountain as a public "pay as you go" urinal..
if der vey ever falls on real hard financial times, they might consider it an option.. limited clientele, for sure, but a definite money maker..
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rascal
That accusation of unfairness is rediculous. I`ll bet I have had just as many posts deleted as either of you. I have also been suspended, and my point of view cannot be more diametrically opposed to yours. How either if you can claim unfair treatment, based on your pov is beyond me.
You don`t want to be called an apologist, but by God you sure don`t mind calling others liars or exaggerators or whiners, or attack their veracity.
Come on guys, you are better than this.
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Grumpy
Obviously, some drank more than others!
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Ham
I mean, well, what if he really was still alive? Nothing that a little hammer and wooden stake, or silver bullets or something couldn't readily dispatch..
Same goes for me I guess. I suppose I've wronged a few people.. if they want to dance on my grave, I'll play the music..
from what I've come to learn about the vicster though.. he didn't deserve a decent burial..
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Ham
In all honesty here, he is still alive.. sorta.
Lookie HERE..
check out the email contact at the bottom of the page.
at first I thought it was a gag.. but it wasn't April the first or anything.. then I got to thinking.. maybe it's the vicster reincarnated.. I emailed the guy.. said, is this a joke, or were you born around May 21 of 1985?
Don't you find this just a little "creepy"?
makes one want to check to see what's really buried under the fountain..
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Bumpy
I find it creepy, and I may not even count in the vote?
But tell me Mr. Squirrel...did you really "push" that DOUGHNUT BUTTON??
I mean "donate" bouton??
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Ham
If I could pull some out of the horn as it is passed.. I might click on the little button..
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mstar1
Wow i just wanted to welcome Jonny back from his 30 days in the hole and look what i walked into...what a dang drama..
It is sort of strange isnt it? What does 'belief in the bible " actually mean anyway?--
I read it and I see people that had empathy, compassion and helped people that were hurting..but IM not seeing a lot of belief in any of that.
Its hard actually to tell what people mean when they say they are 'bible believers'.
IMO quit talking and show me, otherwise its BS.
If what I see is someone attacking rape victims that doesnt do much to enhance the book that they supposedly "believe in"..maybe its a different translation they read than I have ever been exposed to..., whatever belief or book it is that makes people turn cold and 'without any natural affection' ,do me a favor and keep it far far away from me...
blehhhh
anyway--all I really wanted to say was
Welcome back Jonny Lingo!
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Ham
Strange welcome, indeed. People are strange. When you're a stranger..
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JeffSjo
Welcome back Johnny,
I'm certainly looking forward to getting to understand you a little better.
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Ham
faces look ugly, when you're alone..
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Ham
Women look wicked, when you're unwanted..
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Ham
Streets look uneven, when you're down..
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