The church: Arneson River Theater, San Antonio, Texas, USA.
Denomination: Roman Catholic.
The building: The Arneson River Theater is located out of doors on the Riverwalk, the prettiest urban river in America. The stage resembles an old limestone mission, complete with bells. An arched stone bridge connects the stage with the seating across the San Antonio river, where grassy stone benches rise like giant steps.
The neighbourhood: The Riverwalk winds through downtown San Antonio like a long garden. It is heavily planted with flowering trees and shrubs and lined with shops, restaurants and hotels. The Arneson River Theater spans the river, next to the Little Rhein Steak House and La Villita, the city's oldest quarter and now a cute shopping/restaurant neighborhood, and also the site of the first mass celebrated in the city, in the 17th century. A few steps farther one finds bars, restaurants and nightclubs.
The cast: Rev Jerry Brown, Rector-Elect of Assumption Seminary, assisted by a very large supporting cast.
What was the name of the service?
The 24th Annual Folklife Mass, sponsored by the Texas Catholic Conference on Community Ethnic Affairs.
How full was the building?
As predicted by the book of Acts, "together the crowd numbered about 120 persons". The theater area itself was about one quarter full.
Did anyone welcome you personally?
Yes, the usher who gave me a program said hello.
Was your pew comfortable?
No pews here – just stone-and-grass risers, which felt like... stone and grass. Let's just say that nature can be a cruel master. A number of people had plastic garbage bags to sit on, which seemed like an excellent idea to protect from dampness.
How would you describe the pre-service atmosphere?
I arrived just as the service was starting. The people seemed friendly but respectful, and there was a certain amount of bustling about with the costumed participants.
What were the exact opening words of the service?
"Good morning."
What books did the congregation use during the service?
None, just the service leaflet.
What musical instruments were played?
Many and varied. A small orchestra included violins and flutes and so forth; there were also bagpipes and recorded music.
Did anything distract you?
Oh yes. Occasionally a boatload of tourists would pass between the congregation and the celebrants; at one point the priest invited the passengers to pray with us. Also there was a brief splash of rain, which failed to dampen anyone's spirits.
Was the worship stiff-upper-lip, happy clappy, or what?
Casual and eclectic. About as eclectic as it's possible to get, in fact, and deliberately so since that was the whole point of the Mass. The service is an annual event in conjunction with the Texas Folklife Festival, which I'd visited the night before. Service participants included the Holy Redeemer liturgical dancers, the Santo Nino de Cebu choir, the Vietnamese Martyrs Center choir, and representatives from nearly 30 ethnic groups, including Canary Islanders and Alsatians, who all wore native costumes and brought their national flags up to the stage to open the service. The Native Americans brought a crooked stick wrapped in feathers. Languages used included Spanish, Gaelic, Czech, German, French, Tagalog, Flemish, and English.
Exactly how long was the sermon?
18 minutes.
On a scale of 1-10, how good was the preacher?
The sermon gets a 10 because it was exactly right for the occasion. It drifted a bit, including some reminiscences about the presider's mother, but kept coming back to the central point.
In a nutshell, what was the sermon about?
"Although we come from many places and are different, in God we are all one." The priest noted that the reading (from Mark) calls us to proclaim the gospel to every creature. "We can't be lazy, and more than talking is needed. We must live what we proclaim," he said.
Which part of the service was like being in heaven?
Holding hands during the Lord's prayer. I had a Vietnamese man on my left and a woman in a dirndl on my right. This simple gesture emphasized the whole spirit of the service.
And which part was like being in... er... the other place?
The weather. The American Civil War general Philip Sheridan observed, "If I owned hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell." (A local newspaper responded by praising Sheridan's loyalty to his place of origin.) I've never been to hell (yet) but the climatic similarities are obvious.
What happened when you hung around after the service looking lost?
Nothing – I smiled at a few people and left.
How would you describe the after-service coffee?
Coffee? A hot beverage? Are you out of your mind? Anyway, there was no official post-service fellowship. But a large vanilla/mango ice-cream cone from Haagen-Dazs solved the refreshment problem nicely. Mmmmm.
How would you feel about making this church your regular (where 10 = ecstatic, 0 = terminal)?
Since the service takes place only once a year, this is not possible. But I'd come back eagerly, especially if they held it someplace cooler, so I guess 10 in principle.
Did the service make you feel glad to be a Christian?
Not just glad to be a Christian, but glad to be an American. Our coins bear the motto E pluribus unum, or "from many into one". For an hour and a half that motto was made real – we were one nation made of many peoples. This service celebrates the American ideal, which is that very different people from all over the world can come together and form a community.
What one thing will you remember about all this in seven days' time?
The liturgical dancers censing the altar before the service. I'll also remember the birds twittering during the consecration. One doesn't often hear birds in church.
before i say anything, i just want to ask you a quick question: what is your opinion of todd bentley?.. or the toronto & pensacola movements?
peace,
jen-o
As a worship leader Todd Bentley was awesome. I was kind of disappointed in the little that I had seen of the revival in Lakeland Florida. It kind of had the air of being more about the show. I think he may have some producers pushing him.
I don't really know much about the Toronto & Pensacola movements, but I am very into the "move of the Holy Spirit." It does not always look like what we expect it to. I'm a bit cautious at times because I have encountered counterfeits
you say that like there is some sort of contradiction between these 2 things?
I'm just trying to work it out in my own head. I've had all day to think about this now, and don't have time to type what I want to say right now, and I probably won't be back until Tuesday, but the bottom line is, maybe you are right.
I have a Todd Bentley CD from way back before the tattoos and the piercings, and it is awesome. It takes me into directly into the thrown room every time I listen to it. I was kind of hoping that you were going to tell me that you worked for him or something, because I think he needs to hear what I have to tell him, and I think he is real enough to listen to it. I'm pretty sure that his heart is with the Lord.
Our church is a small independent, but we are similar in doctrine to Assembly of God, though quite different in structure. There is what the call the "River Movement" within the A-G. At first I was skeptical of this "River Movement" because it was so different from what I was taught, but later grew to like it. It helped me to feel the presence of the Lord
I still have a problem with the statements of "The Holy Spirit showed up," and the like. I will ask questions like "Where was he before?" or "I thought he was omnipresent." There is a change, though that comes over an entire room and sometimes lingers in the building and you feel it as soon as you walk through the doors. I've wondered if it might be an angelic presence or what the OT called the glory of the Lord.
Exd 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
My pastor doesn't like the River Movement. He doesn't feel that they concentrate enough on the Scriptures. Maybe he is right, but I love to dive into the river. Our church allows a free movement of the Holy Spirit, and concentrates on the Scriptures as well. I like that, but it look weird to some people.
Dave (my pastor) would talk about having a check in his spirit whenever somebody would say something that was off, even though he didn't know exactly where they were off at. I'd felt that check in my spirit when I'd heard about the Toronto Movement, (Like I said, I don't know much about it, and even less about Pensacola.) but I'd kind of wrote that off as something coming from the old twi mind set. I remember someone talking about how the Azusa Street people didn't like the Toronto Movement because it didn't look like what they did, and how that God doesn't follow the same pattern every time. Personally, I want to see the results. "I don't care about the delivery. I just want to see the baby." (if you don't mind my quoting vpw)
A few years ago Raul Ries came to Eureka. He brought All Together Separate and Priesthood with him. People all around me had their hands raised to the Lord, and I felt this urge to do so also, but I withheld because I was taught in twi that such was a counterfeit. Then I looked over at my wife, and she had her hands raised to the Lord. The Lord showed me later that anything done as an act of worship is worship.
Another time we went to a conference down in Sacramento. Sharon went up for prayer, and the next thing I know, she is laying on the floor. I went for prayer also because I had a really bad sinus cold. The person praying for me had her hand on my head and was pushing me backwards to the point where I was off balance. When I felt my knee buckle under me I stepped back to regain my balance. This person asked me why did I resist because there was a strong man behind me to catch me, but I'm like, "No, If I go down, it's going to be because God did it, not because you pushed me."
Later my wife told me what she experienced, and it was completely different from what I experienced. I still have never experienced going down, but Sharon has several times since then.
To me a real move of God will leave a wake of wheel chairs, crouches, hearing aids, white canes and back braces in the dumpsters, but I've looked at these other "movements" as heading in the right direction. I look for the results. When Bob Mathieson (second corps)http://www.outreachofgodsword.com/ first started studying demonology he went to a couple of meetings where people were trying to emulate Derek Prince. He said that all he saw there was manifestation after manifestation, but no deliverance. That is not to say that Derek Prince wasn't real, but he was maybe operating under a special anointing that the others didn't have (like Paul was in Acts 19:11ff) to do mass deliverance.
Maybe they are counterfeits, but whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. (Phil 1:18) And And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. (Rom 8:28)
I'm not going to call it a counterfeit until I know what the genuine looks like. Moreover, I'm not going to call it a counterfeit unless I know that it is a counterfeit. I don't want to be stuck believing it is counterfeit if it is real, and I don't want to be stuck believing that it is real if it is counterfeit. Most of all, I don't want to be the counterfeit. Maybe it's a counterfeit, or maybe it's preparation for what is coming. What I see is people doing the best they know how to do.
I believe that our church is real, though we may look odd to those who are more reserved. I believe also that God has much more to offer than what we've got so far.
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cheranne
If your ever in San Antonio
Arneson River Theater, San Antonio, Texas
Other reports | Comment on this report
.
The church: Arneson River Theater, San Antonio, Texas, USA.
Denomination: Roman Catholic.
The building: The Arneson River Theater is located out of doors on the Riverwalk, the prettiest urban river in America. The stage resembles an old limestone mission, complete with bells. An arched stone bridge connects the stage with the seating across the San Antonio river, where grassy stone benches rise like giant steps.
The neighbourhood: The Riverwalk winds through downtown San Antonio like a long garden. It is heavily planted with flowering trees and shrubs and lined with shops, restaurants and hotels. The Arneson River Theater spans the river, next to the Little Rhein Steak House and La Villita, the city's oldest quarter and now a cute shopping/restaurant neighborhood, and also the site of the first mass celebrated in the city, in the 17th century. A few steps farther one finds bars, restaurants and nightclubs.
The cast: Rev Jerry Brown, Rector-Elect of Assumption Seminary, assisted by a very large supporting cast.
What was the name of the service?
The 24th Annual Folklife Mass, sponsored by the Texas Catholic Conference on Community Ethnic Affairs.
How full was the building?
As predicted by the book of Acts, "together the crowd numbered about 120 persons". The theater area itself was about one quarter full.
Did anyone welcome you personally?
Yes, the usher who gave me a program said hello.
Was your pew comfortable?
No pews here – just stone-and-grass risers, which felt like... stone and grass. Let's just say that nature can be a cruel master. A number of people had plastic garbage bags to sit on, which seemed like an excellent idea to protect from dampness.
How would you describe the pre-service atmosphere?
I arrived just as the service was starting. The people seemed friendly but respectful, and there was a certain amount of bustling about with the costumed participants.
What were the exact opening words of the service?
"Good morning."
What books did the congregation use during the service?
None, just the service leaflet.
What musical instruments were played?
Many and varied. A small orchestra included violins and flutes and so forth; there were also bagpipes and recorded music.
Did anything distract you?
Oh yes. Occasionally a boatload of tourists would pass between the congregation and the celebrants; at one point the priest invited the passengers to pray with us. Also there was a brief splash of rain, which failed to dampen anyone's spirits.
Was the worship stiff-upper-lip, happy clappy, or what?
Casual and eclectic. About as eclectic as it's possible to get, in fact, and deliberately so since that was the whole point of the Mass. The service is an annual event in conjunction with the Texas Folklife Festival, which I'd visited the night before. Service participants included the Holy Redeemer liturgical dancers, the Santo Nino de Cebu choir, the Vietnamese Martyrs Center choir, and representatives from nearly 30 ethnic groups, including Canary Islanders and Alsatians, who all wore native costumes and brought their national flags up to the stage to open the service. The Native Americans brought a crooked stick wrapped in feathers. Languages used included Spanish, Gaelic, Czech, German, French, Tagalog, Flemish, and English.
Exactly how long was the sermon?
18 minutes.
On a scale of 1-10, how good was the preacher?
The sermon gets a 10 because it was exactly right for the occasion. It drifted a bit, including some reminiscences about the presider's mother, but kept coming back to the central point.
In a nutshell, what was the sermon about?
"Although we come from many places and are different, in God we are all one." The priest noted that the reading (from Mark) calls us to proclaim the gospel to every creature. "We can't be lazy, and more than talking is needed. We must live what we proclaim," he said.
Which part of the service was like being in heaven?
Holding hands during the Lord's prayer. I had a Vietnamese man on my left and a woman in a dirndl on my right. This simple gesture emphasized the whole spirit of the service.
And which part was like being in... er... the other place?
The weather. The American Civil War general Philip Sheridan observed, "If I owned hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell." (A local newspaper responded by praising Sheridan's loyalty to his place of origin.) I've never been to hell (yet) but the climatic similarities are obvious.
What happened when you hung around after the service looking lost?
Nothing – I smiled at a few people and left.
How would you describe the after-service coffee?
Coffee? A hot beverage? Are you out of your mind? Anyway, there was no official post-service fellowship. But a large vanilla/mango ice-cream cone from Haagen-Dazs solved the refreshment problem nicely. Mmmmm.
How would you feel about making this church your regular (where 10 = ecstatic, 0 = terminal)?
Since the service takes place only once a year, this is not possible. But I'd come back eagerly, especially if they held it someplace cooler, so I guess 10 in principle.
Did the service make you feel glad to be a Christian?
Not just glad to be a Christian, but glad to be an American. Our coins bear the motto E pluribus unum, or "from many into one". For an hour and a half that motto was made real – we were one nation made of many peoples. This service celebrates the American ideal, which is that very different people from all over the world can come together and form a community.
What one thing will you remember about all this in seven days' time?
The liturgical dancers censing the altar before the service. I'll also remember the birds twittering during the consecration. One doesn't often hear birds in church.
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Caveman
As a worship leader Todd Bentley was awesome. I was kind of disappointed in the little that I had seen of the revival in Lakeland Florida. It kind of had the air of being more about the show. I think he may have some producers pushing him.
I don't really know much about the Toronto & Pensacola movements, but I am very into the "move of the Holy Spirit." It does not always look like what we expect it to. I'm a bit cautious at times because I have encountered counterfeits
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Caveman
What is your opinion of Todd Bentley?.. or the Toronto & Pensacola movements, jen-o?
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jen-o
well...
there's really no gentle way to put this...
i think they are straight from the pit of hell...
i am glad you are cautious;
these are definitely COUNTERFEIT "revivals",
designed to suck in those who go looking for "signs"...
but an evil generation seeketh after a sign...
peace,
jen-o
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Caveman
Yet you know about familiar spirits
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jen-o
caveman,
you say that like there is some sort of contradiction between these 2 things?
yes, i know of familiar spirits & i am convinced that the "revivals" mentioned are counterfeit...
in fact, spirits are heavily involved in the counterfeit "revivals"...
i see no contradiction here...
please clarify...
peace,
jen-o
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Caveman
I'm just trying to work it out in my own head. I've had all day to think about this now, and don't have time to type what I want to say right now, and I probably won't be back until Tuesday, but the bottom line is, maybe you are right.
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jen-o
caveman,
have a wonderful weekend, my friend!
i look forward to chatting with you more when you get back on tuesday...
peace,
jen-o
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waterbuffalo
Hi jen-o,
So, what makes a revival genuine? What makes a revival conterfeit, in your opinion?
Just wondered...
wb
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Shellon
If a place of worship, whether it's in or outside, castle or cave, if it works for you, then it's good.
For some that could be with one or two others, or others might fit better in a larger setting, like a revival.
It's all so very personal and private what one has with their God or whomever they want to know better.
In my own life, I don't get it from large groups, but you might. My thing is just me and God and it works. Might not for you.
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Caveman
I have a Todd Bentley CD from way back before the tattoos and the piercings, and it is awesome. It takes me into directly into the thrown room every time I listen to it. I was kind of hoping that you were going to tell me that you worked for him or something, because I think he needs to hear what I have to tell him, and I think he is real enough to listen to it. I'm pretty sure that his heart is with the Lord.
Our church is a small independent, but we are similar in doctrine to Assembly of God, though quite different in structure. There is what the call the "River Movement" within the A-G. At first I was skeptical of this "River Movement" because it was so different from what I was taught, but later grew to like it. It helped me to feel the presence of the Lord
I still have a problem with the statements of "The Holy Spirit showed up," and the like. I will ask questions like "Where was he before?" or "I thought he was omnipresent." There is a change, though that comes over an entire room and sometimes lingers in the building and you feel it as soon as you walk through the doors. I've wondered if it might be an angelic presence or what the OT called the glory of the Lord.
Exd 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
My pastor doesn't like the River Movement. He doesn't feel that they concentrate enough on the Scriptures. Maybe he is right, but I love to dive into the river. Our church allows a free movement of the Holy Spirit, and concentrates on the Scriptures as well. I like that, but it look weird to some people.
Dave (my pastor) would talk about having a check in his spirit whenever somebody would say something that was off, even though he didn't know exactly where they were off at. I'd felt that check in my spirit when I'd heard about the Toronto Movement, (Like I said, I don't know much about it, and even less about Pensacola.) but I'd kind of wrote that off as something coming from the old twi mind set. I remember someone talking about how the Azusa Street people didn't like the Toronto Movement because it didn't look like what they did, and how that God doesn't follow the same pattern every time. Personally, I want to see the results. "I don't care about the delivery. I just want to see the baby." (if you don't mind my quoting vpw)
A few years ago Raul Ries came to Eureka. He brought All Together Separate and Priesthood with him. People all around me had their hands raised to the Lord, and I felt this urge to do so also, but I withheld because I was taught in twi that such was a counterfeit. Then I looked over at my wife, and she had her hands raised to the Lord. The Lord showed me later that anything done as an act of worship is worship.
Another time we went to a conference down in Sacramento. Sharon went up for prayer, and the next thing I know, she is laying on the floor. I went for prayer also because I had a really bad sinus cold. The person praying for me had her hand on my head and was pushing me backwards to the point where I was off balance. When I felt my knee buckle under me I stepped back to regain my balance. This person asked me why did I resist because there was a strong man behind me to catch me, but I'm like, "No, If I go down, it's going to be because God did it, not because you pushed me."
Later my wife told me what she experienced, and it was completely different from what I experienced. I still have never experienced going down, but Sharon has several times since then.
To me a real move of God will leave a wake of wheel chairs, crouches, hearing aids, white canes and back braces in the dumpsters, but I've looked at these other "movements" as heading in the right direction. I look for the results. When Bob Mathieson (second corps)http://www.outreachofgodsword.com/ first started studying demonology he went to a couple of meetings where people were trying to emulate Derek Prince. He said that all he saw there was manifestation after manifestation, but no deliverance. That is not to say that Derek Prince wasn't real, but he was maybe operating under a special anointing that the others didn't have (like Paul was in Acts 19:11ff) to do mass deliverance.
Maybe they are counterfeits, but whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. (Phil 1:18) And And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. (Rom 8:28)
I'm not going to call it a counterfeit until I know what the genuine looks like. Moreover, I'm not going to call it a counterfeit unless I know that it is a counterfeit. I don't want to be stuck believing it is counterfeit if it is real, and I don't want to be stuck believing that it is real if it is counterfeit. Most of all, I don't want to be the counterfeit. Maybe it's a counterfeit, or maybe it's preparation for what is coming. What I see is people doing the best they know how to do.
I believe that our church is real, though we may look odd to those who are more reserved. I believe also that God has much more to offer than what we've got so far.
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