Here are some of the threads that come up under a "suicide" search.
This subject is especially painful for me -- my friend in high school called me up -- and I didn't have anything noteworthy to say, and then he committed suicide. And about the same time (circa 1968) an adult who trusted me called me and after we spoke, didso as well.
I am so thankful the Lord has given me more and more compassion so that I now more have words to answer a loss of desire to live, and in the process He has been able to show me how people who are severely tortured and persecuted still live and praise the Lord for His goodness. (It does not look logical that someone who is being mercilessly tortured in a concentration camp can praise the Lord for His goodness, but they do.)
One of the most despicable things taught in TWI was that suicide is caused by devil spirit possession.
Any of life's complex problems were always reduced to some idiotically simplistic explanation.
You say you are depressed?---devil spirit.
You say you have an alcohol problem?---devil spirit.
You say have cancer?---devil spirit.
And on and on the list goes.
Possession is a mistranslation, but other than that, I believe they were correct is what they taught. The real problem was that they didn't do anything about it, nor did they know how. The only action they would take if any was to kick the victom out of the "ministry."
Possession is a mistranslation, but other than that, I believe they were correct is what they taught. The real problem was that they didn't do anything about it, nor did they know how. The only action they would take if any was to kick the victom out of the "ministry."
(Green light revelation and all.)
And the "correct" translation would be---------------------???
How about cancer. Is that devil spirit possession?
How about alcoholism. Is that devil spirit possession?
How about sexual predation. Is that devil spirit possession?
Or are those just "mistranslations"?
Seems like old VP was chock full of "mistranslations".
The Greek word is "daimonizomai." The closest accurate translation would be "harrased by a devil."
To be possessed would be "katecho" or "huparchonta."
Thanks, Caveman
It makes me feel much better to know we were following the leadership of someone who was merely "harassed" by devils and not someone who was "possessed" by them, though it is a bit disconcerting to recall him specifically saying these things were devil possession. (Advanced Class)
listen, suicide is the end result of severe deep depression...a clinical depression, meaning it is also a medical diagnosis.
it is real. it has NOTHING to do with the bible or anything even close.
if you see anyone you love severely depressed, you better get them to their doctor or to a hospital because it is an actual illness, like cancer, diabetes, which can affect our loved ones, in more self destructive ways than we care to imagine. there is help for the those who suffer suicide ideation.
listen, suicide is the end result of severe deep depression...a clinical depression, meaning it is also a medical diagnosis.
it is real. it has NOTHING to do with the bible or anything even close.
if you see anyone you love severely depressed, you better get them to their doctor or to a hospital because it is an actual illness, like cancer, diabetes, which can affect our loved ones, in more self destructive ways than we care to imagine. there is help for the those who suffer suicide ideation.
this seems the best opportunity to put facts out.
One problem is, as we have seen several testimonies thereof, that suicides can take place when there are no evident signs beforehand, even to those close, as apparently in Michael's case. My Spock logic tells me there was something that wasn't seen in these cases. Notice I didn't say something missed...because when there are no signs seen even by those close, whetever reasons existed were pretty deeply hidden.
I have read about suicides that took place when everything for the person SEEMED to be going well. I have read about others where there were obvious problems beforehand, whether they were the cause or contributing factors or just symptoms...financial, marital, etc. And then I have come across the cultural factor that I have seen in my WWII studies specifically on the Japanes people and their leaders during and just after that conflict.
I have no argument with your solution, but I think the Bible can have something to do with the more specific subject of this thread (not suicide, but healing after the event).
listen, suicide is the end result of severe deep depression...
if you see anyone you love severely depressed, you better get them to their doctor or to a hospital because it is an actual illness, like cancer, diabetes, which can affect our loved ones, in more self destructive ways than we care to imagine. there is help for the those who suffer suicide ideation.
I am a proponent of inner healing. Yes, depression can be corrected with medication, but the correction often removes also the high points of emotion, and just leaves the patient numb. Inner healing is the act of finding the root issues causing the depression, bringing them to the light and dealing with then properly.
This is different from psycology, as psycology deals only with the serface issues.
One problem is, as we have seen several testimonies thereof, that suicides can take place when there are no evident signs beforehand
If there is no evidence beforehand, then there is nothing that can be done. We all have a secret place in our soul where no man enters. With some people that place is larger than it is with others.
It would be awkward, but some of us might want to probe those who we love to find if there are pains that they do not let anyone else see.
I am a proponent of inner healing. Yes, depression can be corrected with medication, but the correction often removes also the high points of emotion, and just leaves the patient numb. Inner healing is the act of finding the root issues causing the depression, bringing them to the light and dealing with then properly.
This is different from psycology, as psycology deals only with the serface issues.
This is the same dangerous (in my opinion) stance that was taken in TWI.
TWI refused to acknowledge that, although depression can be a temporary state brought on by circumstances, it is frequently the result of actual chemical imbalances in the brain. Removing "negatives" from the person's life( ie:finding root "issues") has no effect on this type of depression. In fact, you may be doing the person great harm by denying them the treatment they require.
And the devil spirit approach? Might as well just drill holes in the person's head so the evil spirits will have an escape route.
This is the same dangerous (in my opinion) stance that was taken in TWI.
TWI refused to acknowledge that, although depression can be a temporary state brought on by circumstances, it is frequently the result of actual chemical imbalances in the brain. Removing "negatives" from the person's life( ie:finding root "issues") has no effect on this type of depression. In fact, you may be doing the person great harm by denying them the treatment they require.
And the devil spirit approach? Might as well just drill holes in the person's head so the evil spirits will have an escape route.
Indeed, TREATMENT can be provided to anyone with known depression. When I first read the expression "depression can be corrected with medication" I cringed.
Depression CAN be treated with medication. It can also be TREATED with counseling and with making some changes to personal situations. BUT, TREATMENT can be successful, but cannot guarantee success.
Therefore, I believe the expression about "being corrected" is dangerously misleading.
Depression CAN be treated with medication. It can also be TREATED with counseling and with making some changes to personal situations. BUT, TREATMENT can be successful, but cannot guarantee success.
So we can have depression as a result of situations, or because of chemical imbalances, or no doubt also a combination of the two. How do we know which? I guess we don't without doing something to find out.
A little less than two years ago, Rascal talked about being a pest if she suspected someone was in trouble. Her comments seemed to indicate that she had dealt with such a situation (s) since the TWI example she cited in that thread. I would be interested in getting her to elaborate on what she meant, although I could take a good guess she was talking about getting the person to a health professional.
But that still doesn't tell us how to deal with cases like Michael and Josh, where people close to the person evidently didn't know they were in trouble. By now I suspect Robi and others in the family have gotten through the long note Michael wrote. Sigh. I guess the best advice to them I could give would be to keep in mind that this was an illness involved, to honor Michael (and Josh and others) as wonderful people and not be trapped by blame. For example, and a pro can say this better, but I cant see how just one incident, such as Josh getting upset that time, is in any way the reason for the tragedy.
This is the same dangerous (in my opinion) stance that was taken in TWI.
TWI refused to acknowledge that, although depression can be a temporary state brought on by circumstances, it is frequently the result of actual chemical imbalances in the brain. Removing "negatives" from the person's life( ie:finding root "issues") has no effect on this type of depression. In fact, you may be doing the person great harm by denying them the treatment they require.
Now, I didn't say to deny them medical treetment. Inner healing will often happen while a person is being treated with medicine. After a period of ministering one may be lead to cut back some on the medicine and see how it goes, but to tell them ti stop completely and not go back would be to handle it inproperly.
And the devil spirit approach? Might as well just drill holes in the person's head so the evil spirits will have an escape route.
I'd always thought it odd how we called demons "devil spirits" because "demons" made them sound not a evil as they really are, yet we called the devil "the adversary" to amke him sound not as evil as he really is.
I'd always thought it odd how we called demons "devil spirits" because "demons" made them sound not a evil as they really are, yet we called the devil "the adversary" to amke him sound not as evil as he really is.
That line is actually a direct quote from a TWI class, thought it escapes me which one at the moment.
I appreciate the discussions about devil spurts vs. chemical imbalance as the cause of depression. As a healthcare worker, I definitely am a proponent of getting people who are depressed and/or suicidal immediate medical & psychiatric help.
In the case of Michael, he showed ABSOLUTELY NO outward signs of depression. Believe me, we would have noticed...so he hid it even better. You see, my mother is a nurse, I am a nurse, and several members of our family have been treated for depression. In fact, Michael's younger brother, the 16 year old, had just recently told his mother that HE was depressed and wanted to get treatment for it. Michael, though, kept a happy face, made up a bunch of lies about his new job and probably about being accepted to pharmacy school, and fooled us all.
How do you fix that?
I have to apologize for not posting for a while but so much has been happening.
The 8 page suicide letter? It didn't really say that much that was suprising. We were braced to hear some lifeshattering news. There was none. Basically Michael wrote that he never really felt "loved". Funny how he could say that when his mother doted on him...to the point that he accused her of 'controlling' his life and trying to 'live vicariously' through him.
He started writing the letter several weeks before he actually killed himself. He wrote little notes to several family members and several friends. Basically, he says, the "straw that broke the camel's back" was a girl he met on myspace or facebook back in 2007. He says they chatted for a while before they met face to face, and the first night they met was one of the "luckiest" nights of his life. They then decided to date...but several weeks later she dropped him with no explaination. That was December 7, 2007.
The last time he joined a family function on my side of the family (and the first time in a while, I might add) was at Christmas, 2007. He told us things were great with him. He refused other invitations to family functions on our side, but spent much time with his brothers, step-mother, and his adopted father.
He wrote about how death was a better alternative to living...and that's something I don't think I will ever understand. How could something that happened over a year ago be the thing that caused him to kill himself. Why not tell someone that he had pain or concerns? I just don't get it that anyone could think death would be a better alternative.
Can anyone who's been there share that thinking with me? I've been depressed in the past before. I've even taken antidepressants from time to time...but I never was suicidal because it always came to my mind how badly it would hurt and mess up my children (not to mention the rest of my family) if I killed myself. I guess I can't understand it because I've never been there but I would love to hear from someone who has been there but thankfully came out of it.
In the days since my nephew's death, my sister has made some alarming decisions which cause me a great deal of concern. She went out and bought a log cabin house kit to build a house on some land my mother owns and has been offering us both to build on. I had, in the past, thought about building a house there in order to be close to my parents as they get older...but I always thought that a duplex would be the best way to go for my sis and I so we'd each have our own place, yet we'd both be close. She wants to build a house for herself and will build a basement 'mother-in-law' suite for me to "rent" (that doesn't help me with taxes, nor does it help me build equity of my own...a win/win situation for my sister and a lose/lose situation for me). She want's her latest 'boyfriend' to live there with her and help her build the house even though she's told me many times that she doesn't love him and will never marry him. What does that teach her remaining sons? I don't like the 'boyfriend'. I think he's an idiot, and I have told her, very diplomatically of course, that I did not think it would be a good idea for us to live in the same house, even if it was separated by a floor. She assured me that if there was a conflict between us then HE would go before I would. Yeah. Right.
Oh, when I asked her the interest rate for the house...of which she proudly stated she had a construction loan that they would 'roll over' into a mortgage...she DIDN'T KNOW THE INTEREST RATE!! Good God! The first thing you do is find out the interest rate when you are spending $100,000! Then you figure out your monthly expenses and income. She had done none of that.
She also has decided to get custody of her 16 year old son and put him in private school. It costs $800.00 a month for that. To finish the house, the $60,000.00 kit she just bought, she has to put at least another $50,000 or so into it (it is raw land...no water, sewer, needs to be cleared, etc.). The house kit is the outside walls & window only. To keep her son at home in private school, she'd have to quit her job and take a local driving job (she is a trucker-18 wheeler kind and she usually stays gone for months at a time).
Well, she made all these decisions, and I went away last weekend to work. The more I thought about it, the sicker I got in my stomach. Everyone knows the FIRST RULE after a trauma is to NOT make any major decisions...and here she was making decisions about EVERY area of her life!! So...I came home after working the weekend (I now work out of town since I've moved back to my family's hometown, about 2 hours from where I work) and went to my mom's to talk with them all. I told them that my sister could still back out of the house deal since you generally get 3-5 days to back out of legal contracts and it had been only 2 business days (since it was the weekend).
I told her we could do it several ways...she could back out and re-think everything and make sure she could afford it all without putting my mother's land in danger of being sold if she couldn't afford it. Or, we could do it the way it would be fair to both of us...do it as a duplex with BOTH of us getting the tax benefits and equity. Well...that ....ed her off very badly. Although my parent's agreed with me, that my sister did not need to go into this without having thought it through very well she had them believing she could handle it. I kept telling them it was because she was counting on me to pay her "rent" of $400 or $500 a month, and she was counting on that guy to live there with her and her son and help with expenses (why would you do that when you just got custody of your son? what kind of example is that?). In either case, I was NOT going to pay her rent for 20 years by any means. I told them I may not be ready to buy another house this month, but I was going to do it within a year or so...when I built up my savings again and when I could make sure I didn't get into a financial bind.
My sister got very mad with me, even though I told her I was making these statements and suggestions in the hopes that she didn't get into a financial problem and not because I wished her bad. I was trying to give her a way to insure she could build a house and keep it without having trouble. She didn't take it that way at all, and she became verbally abusive to me, insulting not only me, but my kids as well.
She gets that way when things don't go her way and I'm beginning to wonder if she's a little bipolar. Most people go out and buy a pair of new shoes or a cupcake when they are down. She went out and bought a damn house! I told that to my step-dad when he laughingly said women go out and spend money when they are upset. I told him she could buy shoes all she wanted but not a damn house!! LOL!
Anyways, that's the way my sister is. When it suits her, I'll be her best friend. Right now, I'm not. That's another reason it wouldn't be good for me to "rent" a basement apartment...she'd throw me out the first time she got ....ed off at me! I'm not stupid enough to put myself in that position.
I did talk with my mother 2 days after talking with them all. My mother says my sister did back out of the house contract and stop payment on the check because they wouldn't give her figures on how much it would cost to build the house. I don't know where everything else stands. But, after insulting me and my children (with my daughter sitting right there and getting very hurt and angry by it all), my sis called me today to tell me about the funeral service this coming Saturday. Like nothing at all had happened. Sheesh....
Bipolar, I think.
Instead of calling her ex and finding out when the stupid funeral is (time, place) and instead of placing the obit herself, she says, "he needs to call me" meaning her ex. You'd think with one son dead and two others hanging in the balance, she'd quit playing games and start talking to the guy. When her ex drove 2 hours to come tell us that the son was dead, she made his 2nd wife sit out in the car! Yikes.
Mebbe I need another family.
Anyways, you all can see why I've been too busy to write much. Thanks again for your prayers and for your comments and suggestions. I'd love to see my sister get evaluated for her "issues" but she refuses to talk to anyone about herself (meaning a therapist) and she refuses to take medication for her problems...even when she was severely depressed right after her divorce back when our brother was burned. Some of you may even remember a nasty comment or two that she posted on my brother's web site that my daughter had to remove.
Keep the prayers coming. I'm thinking of moving back OUT of town!
hugs,
Robi
EDITED TO FIX THE DOUBLE POST THAT MY LITTLE WHITE KITTY CAUSED! BAD BOY!
Gosh, Robes, I don't really know what to say. I mean, if it weren't for the "blood is thicker than water" thing, would you still be interacting with this person? It's not my place to say, really but it's something to think about. You can't make someone get help if they don't want it or refuse to recognize the need. Not that I'm offering some sort of diagnosis (for which I most assuredly am not qualified) but she really owes it to herself and the ones her behavior is affecting to at least discuss the possibility of need for treatment with a professional. I definitely "get" what you are saying about keeping things status quo. (ie: If you've been thinking about changing jobs or getting a divorce, etc., put it all on the back-burner and find a way to work around it for at least a year if you can.) When I got divorced many years ago, I read an article that included a study that detailed the deleterious effects these sorts of traumas can exact on ones heart (the physical structure). It's pretty serious stuff. Sorry, I no longer remember the article or study well enough to give citation.
As to the suicide, I can't speak first hand what it feels like to be in that frame of mind but I think it must be like a cumulative sort of condition, kinda like a self brainwashing sort of process. I think that is what we did in The Way. We self deluded ourselves bit by bit and piece by piece until, one day, we realized we were no longer the same person who sat excitedly in PFAL for the first time, waiting for the tape to start. And, some of the mental changes you experienced , you knew to keep hid, things like how you now believed you could change things in the physical world by merely thinking about them. Yeah, some of the stuff you just knew you should keep to yourself lest people think you had lost your mind. And, of course, you were certain you had not. You don't see yourself changing, but you do. I had a friend who was diagnosed schizophrenic and took heavy medication. Everything seemed to be going great for him. He got a job, a place to live, a reliable car, etc. I took him to twig because I thought it might help him. One of the believers told him they thought he was born of the wrong seed. You and I might have shrugged it off as wackiness but for him it was the straw that broke the camel's back, the cumulative effect. He killed himself.I've tried to make some sense of it over the years but I still don't have any answers.
In the case of Michael, he showed ABSOLUTELY NO outward signs of depression. Believe me, we would have noticed...so he hid it even better. He wrote about how death was a better alternative to living...and that's something I don't think I will ever understand. How could something that happened over a year ago be the thing that caused him to kill himself. Why not tell someone that he had pain or concerns? I just don't get it that anyone could think death would be a better alternative.
.............................
Can anyone who's been there share that thinking with me? I've been depressed in the past before. I've even taken antidepressants from time to time...but I never was suicidal because it always came to my mind how badly it would hurt and mess up my children (not to mention the rest of my family) if I killed myself. I guess I can't understand it because I've never been there but I would love to hear from someone who has been there but thankfully came out of it.
The testimonies I have seen are not all that many, but enough to convince me it happens oftem enough..."Absolutely no outward signs of depression" or suicidal thoughts, even to those close....so that there is no blame or fault in your sister or you or anyone else in not noticing signs because there were no signs to notice.
However, there may have been some kind of great pain Michael was experiencing...again, pain that he hid well even from those close...that went well beyond one incident of a girlfriend ending that relationship. Why didn't he tell someone about the pain? I don't have the answer. However, if he was in great pain, I can picture him thinking how death could be the end of that pain.
And by the way, you say you were never were suicidal because you always thought about how badly it would hurt those close to you. Is it possible that his pain became so great, it became unbearable to him? It doesn't mean he had no thought of the pain his suicide might cause others. Perhaps this pain, if he had it, was much greater than anything you or I have seen. So great that he couldn't function until he got rid of it. Just some ideas. I still dont have the answer as to why this pain didn't show, or why he didn't tell anyone.
I guess i am trying to say that his suicide doesnt mean he did not think of the pain those close to him might se saddled with. Or, maybe better put, it doesnt mean that he did not love, for I suppose it is possible that he would not want to hurt anyone but just did not have an idea of the pain his act would result in.
Just some thoughts, for I don't think I could qualify as "someone who has been there".
"Gosh, Robes, I don't really know what to say. I mean, if it weren't for the "blood is thicker than water" thing, would you still be interacting with this person?"
Heck No! I wouldn't have a damn thing to do with her.
I am, however, trying to get my kids to learn that family takes care of itself...regardless of whether or not you 'like' them. It has been important to me to teach them that because they are always getting mad at one person or another in the family and saying they aren't going to have anything to do with them (like my son...he is ....ed at his dad from years ago and my daughter thinks my mom is a nut case...and she probably is to a grand kid who gets lectured to all the time, even though she's a great kid. A grand mom thinks her job is to lecture...that kind of thing.)
Because I am trying to teach my kids to hang in with family when they are going through tough times, I don't want to ditch her, even though she's a nutcase half the time.
I agree...I think she has some issues that she needs counseling about but she refuses to see that she has a problem. She thinks the problems all lie with the other people. For instance, she is a truck driver. She has left jobs because they insist on sending her to NY & NJ and she refuses to go there. Uh, when you work for someone else, you don't refuse that kind of thing. Yet she thinks THEY have a problem.
I do know that it's not healthy to stay in a relationship that is draining and I don't intend to let her drain me. I want to be there to offer help when she wants it, but I'm not going to break my neck (or my heart) trying to 'fix' her. All I'm going to do is talk to the family about the concerns I have with her behavior (with her there, of course. I don't think I need to do it behind her back). As I said, I brought up some concerns, and I've seen a little change. I will continue along those lines. You are right, you can't make someone get help, but I can offer her reasons why she might want to consider it. She's lost one child to suicide already, has another child who is so angry at her (since the divorce that was not even her fault) that he won't speak to her, and her 3rd child has already told her that he's depressed and wants to get treatment. What better time for HER to get treatment than to show her child that it can be helpful...I'll try to bring it up that way to her and hope it works.
Trauma can be VERY stressful..and deadly. They are finding (and I certainly believe it) that it is a leading cause of illness. What a terrible way to be ill. Not that that would motivate her to get help. I'm just saying I agree with you and I'm not going to keep myself stressed out over it all. However, I don't want to see my parents stressed out about it either. I don't want them sick.
" I had a friend who was diagnosed schizophrenic and took heavy medication. Everything seemed to be going great for him. He got a job, a place to live, a reliable car, etc. I took him to twig because I thought it might help him. One of the believers told him they thought he was born of the wrong seed. You and I might have shrugged it off as wackiness but for him it was the straw that broke the camel's back, the cumulative effect. He killed himself.I've tried to make some sense of it over the years but I still don't have any answers. "
Yikes, Waysider, what a terrible thing! I would have been SO careful to never tell anyone that directly for exactly that reason! Why the heck did they think that was a good idea, anyways? How stupid of that believer to have the arrogance to do something like that. What would it EVER have profited? Nothing. I'm sorry you were involved in something like that and sorry you had to feel bad for it.
Thanks for your prayers and your comments. I won't put up with my sister's junk for long, you can be sure of that!
Lifted, you are right about the pain thing. It's possible that he felt enough pain in his own life that he either didn't care about the pain he caused others or he didn't think about it.
I just don't think I can understand anyone being in THAT much pain that they think death is the answer. And I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying I don't understand it. I think that as long as you are alive, there is hope. With death, there is no hope...unless you are counting on the final Hope...the Hope of the Return. In Michael's case, I don't think that was the case because he didn't know enough, if anything, about The Hope. I'm just saying I can't imagine that much pain. It's sad to think anyone would or could be in that much pain.
Well, today (Saturday) is the funeral, 11:30 Eastern time. At a Methodist Church. My sister has neither asked me to assist with the service nor has she asked me any questions about how accurate it will be. She left it all entirely up to her ex-husband and criticized him the whole time since he didn't do it in a more timely manner. Of course, I'm sure she will have much more bad to say about him (her ex) tomorrow after the service. I have come to see that my sister seems to LOVE being the victim with her ex. It's time she gets over that. But maybe she will have a few questions that I can help her out with when it's over. My nephew was creamated last week when they went to Virginia. They will place his ashes in the military cemetary in middle Georgia sometime next week (my sister wants him to have that respect since he was a veteran).
Thanks again for your thoughts on this...and your prayers.
So we can have depression as a result of situations, or because of chemical imbalances, or no doubt also a combination of the two. How do we know which? I guess we don't without doing something to find out.
A little less than two years ago, Rascal talked about being a pest if she suspected someone was in trouble. Her comments seemed to indicate that she had dealt with such a situation (s) since the TWI example she cited in that thread. I would be interested in getting her to elaborate on what she meant,
I don`t know if that has anything to do with this thread, but the situation that I probably was referring to was about a woman I knew who lost her husband suddenly. She wouldn`t crawl out of the bed. She didn`t seem willing to go on. I would go over there daily for a couple of hours and get her up, make her talk to me, insist that she get out of the house and come to dinner once a week...etc At the time she said she hated me for being such a pest...now she thanks me and still comes to dinner once a week and it is 15 years later...lol
The reason I took her depression and withdrawal so seriously was because of an incident that occured years earlier.
Our tc in twi was depressed, his wife left him and his kids. He asked our help to get his house in order...he tried to give us things...he kept asking us to kick his bu tt. All we knew to do was to love him and pray for him After all, he was corps, he was clergy...they aren`t in danger of that sort of thing.
We didn`t know the danger signals, but I knew something was seriously wrong...I begged my spouse to talk to him daily...I talked to our lc ....he was not concerned. I was of course a woman and only spouse corpes ...so nobody took me seriously. What I was suggesting was unthinkable. The guys that might have made a difference, ignored him...figuring undoubtedly he was way to spiritual for that sort of thing.
The man indeed killed himself. I never wanted to be guilty of ignoring someones cries again...so I make it a point to make a pest of myself calling, going over, inviting them out, giving them a chance to talk if I even suspect that someone is struggling...untill I am sure that they are on solid ground.
I don`t know if that answeres your question or not Lifted.
I don`t know if that answeres your question or not Lifted.
Yes it does, and thank you. My main question is whether you meant waiting until you felt strongly enough a person was suicidal, or acting if you have only a hint that a person is...as you say, struggling. In the first case, I guess the one thing we would all have to do is be sure the person gets to professional help...or get that help to the person. I suppose this may be the eventual answer in the latter case as well...but i was curious if there was anything involved in your being a "pest" besides that, before the person got to that point. Evidently from your example, there is. I'm sure you had to have the wisdom in this later case to know if you had to take a further step`, but obviously things have turned out well, and just as obviously you have made a difference for her.
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(((((ROBI))))))
I just now read this thread. You and your family ar in my prayers.
I have thought of you as a friend since I first came to GS many years ago. If there is anything I can do for you, let me know.
Craig
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Suicide in the Way 2002
Here are some of the threads that come up under a "suicide" search.
This subject is especially painful for me -- my friend in high school called me up -- and I didn't have anything noteworthy to say, and then he committed suicide. And about the same time (circa 1968) an adult who trusted me called me and after we spoke, didso as well.
I am so thankful the Lord has given me more and more compassion so that I now more have words to answer a loss of desire to live, and in the process He has been able to show me how people who are severely tortured and persecuted still live and praise the Lord for His goodness. (It does not look logical that someone who is being mercilessly tortured in a concentration camp can praise the Lord for His goodness, but they do.)
In hope,
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Caveman
Possession is a mistranslation, but other than that, I believe they were correct is what they taught. The real problem was that they didn't do anything about it, nor did they know how. The only action they would take if any was to kick the victom out of the "ministry."
(Green light revelation and all.)
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waysider
And the "correct" translation would be---------------------???
How about cancer. Is that devil spirit possession?
How about alcoholism. Is that devil spirit possession?
How about sexual predation. Is that devil spirit possession?
Or are those just "mistranslations"?
Seems like old VP was chock full of "mistranslations".
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Caveman
The Greek word is "daimonizomai." The closest accurate translation would be "harassed by a devil."
To be possessed would be "katecho" or "huparchonta." Maybe even "heautou."
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waysider
Thanks, Caveman
It makes me feel much better to know we were following the leadership of someone who was merely "harassed" by devils and not someone who was "possessed" by them, though it is a bit disconcerting to recall him specifically saying these things were devil possession. (Advanced Class)
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Caveman
LOL
There was deffinately a religious spirit involved there.
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kimberly
Hi Robes,
How are you and your family doing? You and yours have been much in my thoughts and prayers.
XOXO,
Kimberly
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dakotawind
listen, suicide is the end result of severe deep depression...a clinical depression, meaning it is also a medical diagnosis.
it is real. it has NOTHING to do with the bible or anything even close.
if you see anyone you love severely depressed, you better get them to their doctor or to a hospital because it is an actual illness, like cancer, diabetes, which can affect our loved ones, in more self destructive ways than we care to imagine. there is help for the those who suffer suicide ideation.
this seems the best opportunity to put facts out.
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Lifted Up
One problem is, as we have seen several testimonies thereof, that suicides can take place when there are no evident signs beforehand, even to those close, as apparently in Michael's case. My Spock logic tells me there was something that wasn't seen in these cases. Notice I didn't say something missed...because when there are no signs seen even by those close, whetever reasons existed were pretty deeply hidden.
I have read about suicides that took place when everything for the person SEEMED to be going well. I have read about others where there were obvious problems beforehand, whether they were the cause or contributing factors or just symptoms...financial, marital, etc. And then I have come across the cultural factor that I have seen in my WWII studies specifically on the Japanes people and their leaders during and just after that conflict.
I have no argument with your solution, but I think the Bible can have something to do with the more specific subject of this thread (not suicide, but healing after the event).
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Caveman
I am a proponent of inner healing. Yes, depression can be corrected with medication, but the correction often removes also the high points of emotion, and just leaves the patient numb. Inner healing is the act of finding the root issues causing the depression, bringing them to the light and dealing with then properly.
This is different from psycology, as psycology deals only with the serface issues.
If there is no evidence beforehand, then there is nothing that can be done. We all have a secret place in our soul where no man enters. With some people that place is larger than it is with others.
It would be awkward, but some of us might want to probe those who we love to find if there are pains that they do not let anyone else see.
What pains do you hide?
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waysider
This is the same dangerous (in my opinion) stance that was taken in TWI.
TWI refused to acknowledge that, although depression can be a temporary state brought on by circumstances, it is frequently the result of actual chemical imbalances in the brain. Removing "negatives" from the person's life( ie:finding root "issues") has no effect on this type of depression. In fact, you may be doing the person great harm by denying them the treatment they require.
And the devil spirit approach? Might as well just drill holes in the person's head so the evil spirits will have an escape route.
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Rocky
Indeed, TREATMENT can be provided to anyone with known depression. When I first read the expression "depression can be corrected with medication" I cringed.
Depression CAN be treated with medication. It can also be TREATED with counseling and with making some changes to personal situations. BUT, TREATMENT can be successful, but cannot guarantee success.
Therefore, I believe the expression about "being corrected" is dangerously misleading.
And I agree with waysider's post above.
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Lifted Up
So we can have depression as a result of situations, or because of chemical imbalances, or no doubt also a combination of the two. How do we know which? I guess we don't without doing something to find out.
A little less than two years ago, Rascal talked about being a pest if she suspected someone was in trouble. Her comments seemed to indicate that she had dealt with such a situation (s) since the TWI example she cited in that thread. I would be interested in getting her to elaborate on what she meant, although I could take a good guess she was talking about getting the person to a health professional.
But that still doesn't tell us how to deal with cases like Michael and Josh, where people close to the person evidently didn't know they were in trouble. By now I suspect Robi and others in the family have gotten through the long note Michael wrote. Sigh. I guess the best advice to them I could give would be to keep in mind that this was an illness involved, to honor Michael (and Josh and others) as wonderful people and not be trapped by blame. For example, and a pro can say this better, but I cant see how just one incident, such as Josh getting upset that time, is in any way the reason for the tragedy.
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Caveman
Now, I didn't say to deny them medical treetment. Inner healing will often happen while a person is being treated with medicine. After a period of ministering one may be lead to cut back some on the medicine and see how it goes, but to tell them ti stop completely and not go back would be to handle it inproperly.
I'd always thought it odd how we called demons "devil spirits" because "demons" made them sound not a evil as they really are, yet we called the devil "the adversary" to amke him sound not as evil as he really is.Link to comment
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waysider
That line is actually a direct quote from a TWI class, thought it escapes me which one at the moment.
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Caveman
And I thought I came up with it. Did they misspell "make" too?
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Robes
I appreciate the discussions about devil spurts vs. chemical imbalance as the cause of depression. As a healthcare worker, I definitely am a proponent of getting people who are depressed and/or suicidal immediate medical & psychiatric help.
In the case of Michael, he showed ABSOLUTELY NO outward signs of depression. Believe me, we would have noticed...so he hid it even better. You see, my mother is a nurse, I am a nurse, and several members of our family have been treated for depression. In fact, Michael's younger brother, the 16 year old, had just recently told his mother that HE was depressed and wanted to get treatment for it. Michael, though, kept a happy face, made up a bunch of lies about his new job and probably about being accepted to pharmacy school, and fooled us all.
How do you fix that?
I have to apologize for not posting for a while but so much has been happening.
The 8 page suicide letter? It didn't really say that much that was suprising. We were braced to hear some lifeshattering news. There was none. Basically Michael wrote that he never really felt "loved". Funny how he could say that when his mother doted on him...to the point that he accused her of 'controlling' his life and trying to 'live vicariously' through him.
He started writing the letter several weeks before he actually killed himself. He wrote little notes to several family members and several friends. Basically, he says, the "straw that broke the camel's back" was a girl he met on myspace or facebook back in 2007. He says they chatted for a while before they met face to face, and the first night they met was one of the "luckiest" nights of his life. They then decided to date...but several weeks later she dropped him with no explaination. That was December 7, 2007.
The last time he joined a family function on my side of the family (and the first time in a while, I might add) was at Christmas, 2007. He told us things were great with him. He refused other invitations to family functions on our side, but spent much time with his brothers, step-mother, and his adopted father.
He wrote about how death was a better alternative to living...and that's something I don't think I will ever understand. How could something that happened over a year ago be the thing that caused him to kill himself. Why not tell someone that he had pain or concerns? I just don't get it that anyone could think death would be a better alternative.
Can anyone who's been there share that thinking with me? I've been depressed in the past before. I've even taken antidepressants from time to time...but I never was suicidal because it always came to my mind how badly it would hurt and mess up my children (not to mention the rest of my family) if I killed myself. I guess I can't understand it because I've never been there but I would love to hear from someone who has been there but thankfully came out of it.
In the days since my nephew's death, my sister has made some alarming decisions which cause me a great deal of concern. She went out and bought a log cabin house kit to build a house on some land my mother owns and has been offering us both to build on. I had, in the past, thought about building a house there in order to be close to my parents as they get older...but I always thought that a duplex would be the best way to go for my sis and I so we'd each have our own place, yet we'd both be close. She wants to build a house for herself and will build a basement 'mother-in-law' suite for me to "rent" (that doesn't help me with taxes, nor does it help me build equity of my own...a win/win situation for my sister and a lose/lose situation for me). She want's her latest 'boyfriend' to live there with her and help her build the house even though she's told me many times that she doesn't love him and will never marry him. What does that teach her remaining sons? I don't like the 'boyfriend'. I think he's an idiot, and I have told her, very diplomatically of course, that I did not think it would be a good idea for us to live in the same house, even if it was separated by a floor. She assured me that if there was a conflict between us then HE would go before I would. Yeah. Right.
Oh, when I asked her the interest rate for the house...of which she proudly stated she had a construction loan that they would 'roll over' into a mortgage...she DIDN'T KNOW THE INTEREST RATE!! Good God! The first thing you do is find out the interest rate when you are spending $100,000! Then you figure out your monthly expenses and income. She had done none of that.
She also has decided to get custody of her 16 year old son and put him in private school. It costs $800.00 a month for that. To finish the house, the $60,000.00 kit she just bought, she has to put at least another $50,000 or so into it (it is raw land...no water, sewer, needs to be cleared, etc.). The house kit is the outside walls & window only. To keep her son at home in private school, she'd have to quit her job and take a local driving job (she is a trucker-18 wheeler kind and she usually stays gone for months at a time).
Well, she made all these decisions, and I went away last weekend to work. The more I thought about it, the sicker I got in my stomach. Everyone knows the FIRST RULE after a trauma is to NOT make any major decisions...and here she was making decisions about EVERY area of her life!! So...I came home after working the weekend (I now work out of town since I've moved back to my family's hometown, about 2 hours from where I work) and went to my mom's to talk with them all. I told them that my sister could still back out of the house deal since you generally get 3-5 days to back out of legal contracts and it had been only 2 business days (since it was the weekend).
I told her we could do it several ways...she could back out and re-think everything and make sure she could afford it all without putting my mother's land in danger of being sold if she couldn't afford it. Or, we could do it the way it would be fair to both of us...do it as a duplex with BOTH of us getting the tax benefits and equity. Well...that ....ed her off very badly. Although my parent's agreed with me, that my sister did not need to go into this without having thought it through very well she had them believing she could handle it. I kept telling them it was because she was counting on me to pay her "rent" of $400 or $500 a month, and she was counting on that guy to live there with her and her son and help with expenses (why would you do that when you just got custody of your son? what kind of example is that?). In either case, I was NOT going to pay her rent for 20 years by any means. I told them I may not be ready to buy another house this month, but I was going to do it within a year or so...when I built up my savings again and when I could make sure I didn't get into a financial bind.
My sister got very mad with me, even though I told her I was making these statements and suggestions in the hopes that she didn't get into a financial problem and not because I wished her bad. I was trying to give her a way to insure she could build a house and keep it without having trouble. She didn't take it that way at all, and she became verbally abusive to me, insulting not only me, but my kids as well.
She gets that way when things don't go her way and I'm beginning to wonder if she's a little bipolar. Most people go out and buy a pair of new shoes or a cupcake when they are down. She went out and bought a damn house! I told that to my step-dad when he laughingly said women go out and spend money when they are upset. I told him she could buy shoes all she wanted but not a damn house!! LOL!
Anyways, that's the way my sister is. When it suits her, I'll be her best friend. Right now, I'm not. That's another reason it wouldn't be good for me to "rent" a basement apartment...she'd throw me out the first time she got ....ed off at me! I'm not stupid enough to put myself in that position.
I did talk with my mother 2 days after talking with them all. My mother says my sister did back out of the house contract and stop payment on the check because they wouldn't give her figures on how much it would cost to build the house. I don't know where everything else stands. But, after insulting me and my children (with my daughter sitting right there and getting very hurt and angry by it all), my sis called me today to tell me about the funeral service this coming Saturday. Like nothing at all had happened. Sheesh....
Bipolar, I think.
Instead of calling her ex and finding out when the stupid funeral is (time, place) and instead of placing the obit herself, she says, "he needs to call me" meaning her ex. You'd think with one son dead and two others hanging in the balance, she'd quit playing games and start talking to the guy. When her ex drove 2 hours to come tell us that the son was dead, she made his 2nd wife sit out in the car! Yikes.
Mebbe I need another family.
Anyways, you all can see why I've been too busy to write much. Thanks again for your prayers and for your comments and suggestions. I'd love to see my sister get evaluated for her "issues" but she refuses to talk to anyone about herself (meaning a therapist) and she refuses to take medication for her problems...even when she was severely depressed right after her divorce back when our brother was burned. Some of you may even remember a nasty comment or two that she posted on my brother's web site that my daughter had to remove.
Keep the prayers coming. I'm thinking of moving back OUT of town!
hugs,
Robi
EDITED TO FIX THE DOUBLE POST THAT MY LITTLE WHITE KITTY CAUSED! BAD BOY!
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waysider
Gosh, Robes, I don't really know what to say. I mean, if it weren't for the "blood is thicker than water" thing, would you still be interacting with this person? It's not my place to say, really but it's something to think about. You can't make someone get help if they don't want it or refuse to recognize the need. Not that I'm offering some sort of diagnosis (for which I most assuredly am not qualified) but she really owes it to herself and the ones her behavior is affecting to at least discuss the possibility of need for treatment with a professional. I definitely "get" what you are saying about keeping things status quo. (ie: If you've been thinking about changing jobs or getting a divorce, etc., put it all on the back-burner and find a way to work around it for at least a year if you can.) When I got divorced many years ago, I read an article that included a study that detailed the deleterious effects these sorts of traumas can exact on ones heart (the physical structure). It's pretty serious stuff. Sorry, I no longer remember the article or study well enough to give citation.
As to the suicide, I can't speak first hand what it feels like to be in that frame of mind but I think it must be like a cumulative sort of condition, kinda like a self brainwashing sort of process. I think that is what we did in The Way. We self deluded ourselves bit by bit and piece by piece until, one day, we realized we were no longer the same person who sat excitedly in PFAL for the first time, waiting for the tape to start. And, some of the mental changes you experienced , you knew to keep hid, things like how you now believed you could change things in the physical world by merely thinking about them. Yeah, some of the stuff you just knew you should keep to yourself lest people think you had lost your mind. And, of course, you were certain you had not. You don't see yourself changing, but you do. I had a friend who was diagnosed schizophrenic and took heavy medication. Everything seemed to be going great for him. He got a job, a place to live, a reliable car, etc. I took him to twig because I thought it might help him. One of the believers told him they thought he was born of the wrong seed. You and I might have shrugged it off as wackiness but for him it was the straw that broke the camel's back, the cumulative effect. He killed himself.I've tried to make some sense of it over the years but I still don't have any answers.
I will keep you in my prayers.
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Lifted Up
The testimonies I have seen are not all that many, but enough to convince me it happens oftem enough..."Absolutely no outward signs of depression" or suicidal thoughts, even to those close....so that there is no blame or fault in your sister or you or anyone else in not noticing signs because there were no signs to notice.
However, there may have been some kind of great pain Michael was experiencing...again, pain that he hid well even from those close...that went well beyond one incident of a girlfriend ending that relationship. Why didn't he tell someone about the pain? I don't have the answer. However, if he was in great pain, I can picture him thinking how death could be the end of that pain.
And by the way, you say you were never were suicidal because you always thought about how badly it would hurt those close to you. Is it possible that his pain became so great, it became unbearable to him? It doesn't mean he had no thought of the pain his suicide might cause others. Perhaps this pain, if he had it, was much greater than anything you or I have seen. So great that he couldn't function until he got rid of it. Just some ideas. I still dont have the answer as to why this pain didn't show, or why he didn't tell anyone.
I guess i am trying to say that his suicide doesnt mean he did not think of the pain those close to him might se saddled with. Or, maybe better put, it doesnt mean that he did not love, for I suppose it is possible that he would not want to hurt anyone but just did not have an idea of the pain his act would result in.
Just some thoughts, for I don't think I could qualify as "someone who has been there".
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Robes
Waysider wrote:
"Gosh, Robes, I don't really know what to say. I mean, if it weren't for the "blood is thicker than water" thing, would you still be interacting with this person?"
Heck No! I wouldn't have a damn thing to do with her.
I am, however, trying to get my kids to learn that family takes care of itself...regardless of whether or not you 'like' them. It has been important to me to teach them that because they are always getting mad at one person or another in the family and saying they aren't going to have anything to do with them (like my son...he is ....ed at his dad from years ago and my daughter thinks my mom is a nut case...and she probably is to a grand kid who gets lectured to all the time, even though she's a great kid. A grand mom thinks her job is to lecture...that kind of thing.)
Because I am trying to teach my kids to hang in with family when they are going through tough times, I don't want to ditch her, even though she's a nutcase half the time.
I agree...I think she has some issues that she needs counseling about but she refuses to see that she has a problem. She thinks the problems all lie with the other people. For instance, she is a truck driver. She has left jobs because they insist on sending her to NY & NJ and she refuses to go there. Uh, when you work for someone else, you don't refuse that kind of thing. Yet she thinks THEY have a problem.
I do know that it's not healthy to stay in a relationship that is draining and I don't intend to let her drain me. I want to be there to offer help when she wants it, but I'm not going to break my neck (or my heart) trying to 'fix' her. All I'm going to do is talk to the family about the concerns I have with her behavior (with her there, of course. I don't think I need to do it behind her back). As I said, I brought up some concerns, and I've seen a little change. I will continue along those lines. You are right, you can't make someone get help, but I can offer her reasons why she might want to consider it. She's lost one child to suicide already, has another child who is so angry at her (since the divorce that was not even her fault) that he won't speak to her, and her 3rd child has already told her that he's depressed and wants to get treatment. What better time for HER to get treatment than to show her child that it can be helpful...I'll try to bring it up that way to her and hope it works.
Trauma can be VERY stressful..and deadly. They are finding (and I certainly believe it) that it is a leading cause of illness. What a terrible way to be ill. Not that that would motivate her to get help. I'm just saying I agree with you and I'm not going to keep myself stressed out over it all. However, I don't want to see my parents stressed out about it either. I don't want them sick.
" I had a friend who was diagnosed schizophrenic and took heavy medication. Everything seemed to be going great for him. He got a job, a place to live, a reliable car, etc. I took him to twig because I thought it might help him. One of the believers told him they thought he was born of the wrong seed. You and I might have shrugged it off as wackiness but for him it was the straw that broke the camel's back, the cumulative effect. He killed himself.I've tried to make some sense of it over the years but I still don't have any answers. "
Yikes, Waysider, what a terrible thing! I would have been SO careful to never tell anyone that directly for exactly that reason! Why the heck did they think that was a good idea, anyways? How stupid of that believer to have the arrogance to do something like that. What would it EVER have profited? Nothing. I'm sorry you were involved in something like that and sorry you had to feel bad for it.
Thanks for your prayers and your comments. I won't put up with my sister's junk for long, you can be sure of that!
Lifted, you are right about the pain thing. It's possible that he felt enough pain in his own life that he either didn't care about the pain he caused others or he didn't think about it.
I just don't think I can understand anyone being in THAT much pain that they think death is the answer. And I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying I don't understand it. I think that as long as you are alive, there is hope. With death, there is no hope...unless you are counting on the final Hope...the Hope of the Return. In Michael's case, I don't think that was the case because he didn't know enough, if anything, about The Hope. I'm just saying I can't imagine that much pain. It's sad to think anyone would or could be in that much pain.
Well, today (Saturday) is the funeral, 11:30 Eastern time. At a Methodist Church. My sister has neither asked me to assist with the service nor has she asked me any questions about how accurate it will be. She left it all entirely up to her ex-husband and criticized him the whole time since he didn't do it in a more timely manner. Of course, I'm sure she will have much more bad to say about him (her ex) tomorrow after the service. I have come to see that my sister seems to LOVE being the victim with her ex. It's time she gets over that. But maybe she will have a few questions that I can help her out with when it's over. My nephew was creamated last week when they went to Virginia. They will place his ashes in the military cemetary in middle Georgia sometime next week (my sister wants him to have that respect since he was a veteran).
Thanks again for your thoughts on this...and your prayers.
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rascal
I don`t know if that has anything to do with this thread, but the situation that I probably was referring to was about a woman I knew who lost her husband suddenly. She wouldn`t crawl out of the bed. She didn`t seem willing to go on. I would go over there daily for a couple of hours and get her up, make her talk to me, insist that she get out of the house and come to dinner once a week...etc At the time she said she hated me for being such a pest...now she thanks me and still comes to dinner once a week and it is 15 years later...lol
The reason I took her depression and withdrawal so seriously was because of an incident that occured years earlier.
Our tc in twi was depressed, his wife left him and his kids. He asked our help to get his house in order...he tried to give us things...he kept asking us to kick his bu tt. All we knew to do was to love him and pray for him After all, he was corps, he was clergy...they aren`t in danger of that sort of thing.
We didn`t know the danger signals, but I knew something was seriously wrong...I begged my spouse to talk to him daily...I talked to our lc ....he was not concerned. I was of course a woman and only spouse corpes ...so nobody took me seriously. What I was suggesting was unthinkable. The guys that might have made a difference, ignored him...figuring undoubtedly he was way to spiritual for that sort of thing.
The man indeed killed himself. I never wanted to be guilty of ignoring someones cries again...so I make it a point to make a pest of myself calling, going over, inviting them out, giving them a chance to talk if I even suspect that someone is struggling...untill I am sure that they are on solid ground.
I don`t know if that answeres your question or not Lifted.
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jen-o
rascal,
what a very kind, compassionate, and loving thing to do!
God Bless You!
jen-o
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Lifted Up
Yes it does, and thank you. My main question is whether you meant waiting until you felt strongly enough a person was suicidal, or acting if you have only a hint that a person is...as you say, struggling. In the first case, I guess the one thing we would all have to do is be sure the person gets to professional help...or get that help to the person. I suppose this may be the eventual answer in the latter case as well...but i was curious if there was anything involved in your being a "pest" besides that, before the person got to that point. Evidently from your example, there is. I'm sure you had to have the wisdom in this later case to know if you had to take a further step`, but obviously things have turned out well, and just as obviously you have made a difference for her.
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