First of all, my deepest sympathy to you and your family. You are in my prayers.
I would just guard against well meaning people who can be a little judgmental. Hang around and listen to what people say who come to offer their condolences.
I know this isn't very specific but it's what came to mind.
I don't know of any book chapter and verse where it says suicides go to hell. Good grief!
Right now, people are going to need comfort and love and understanding.
It's not much but I'm no scholar, and I just really wanted to say I care and I'm praying for you.
My mom killed herself when I was 18. I got involved with twi not long after and for all my years in twi, I was angry with my mother, considered her weak, was sure she was going to hell and I'd never see her again. It took me quite a few years after leaving twi to sort through my feelings and beliefs.
Today, I believe that I will see my mom again, just as you will see your nephew. I believe God is a compassionate God and I just don't see him punishing Michael, much less your entire family for the suicide.
I think that God understands Michael's pain more than any of us could and that he loves him, as well as your sister and your entire family.
I think of Michael as I do my own mom, at rest now, awaiting the return, when his next waking thought will be Jesus tapping him gently on the shoulder telling him it's time to wake up and join the gathering together, reuniting with his loved ones without the pain of today.
I think part of the problem is this idea of trying to get past a death, no matter if it's suicide or not. I haven't had to deal with a lot of loved ones dying yet, but the one who has that bothered me the most is one of my grandfathers. He was very influential in my life, and was like a father to me when my own biological father absolved himself of responsibility, prior to my stepfather coming into the picture. In many ways, my grandfather molded me to be who I am today. He was a WWII vet, a survivor of many deadly things, as well as a father, grandfather, and intellectual. He was a great leader that kept my entire family as much in line as was possible.
After he died, I started noticing all the things that reminded me of him in myself and others. By feeling his absence, I felt that I understood more about him than I had when he was alive. I wish he were alive today and would have been able to meet his great-granddaughter and any other future great-grandchildren. I'm glad my grandmother has been able to be around to see everything that is happening. Still, he's gone, and there is nothing I can do. I still feel his loss whenever I think about him, and I will never forget him, or even try to forget. This is part of life. We lose people we love in life, even sometimes in tragic ways when they are too young. It's a horrible thing, and it is not something you can "move on" from. However, you can learn to be ok and you can live the rest of your life. For your sister, I don't think that she can go on with her normal life for quite some time. If she seems to be ok now or in the next few weeks, that's probably going to precede a huge meltdown. I have a friend whose son committed suicide, and she had to try to cope by keeping herself and her other son busy, for her to not drink alcohol for a while, and make a few small changes in her life. She's not perfect, and she is spoiling her youngest son. However, she survived and is able to function in society. She laughs at jokes and enjoys her life. It's just that it takes time to get to that point, and for a parent, it takes time.
For me, when my wife had a miscarriage a few years ago, I found it to be devastating. It's good I was already an atheist or I would have been extremely angry at whatever deities I would have perceived to be responsible. While a kid you haven't met and don't know yet was a horrible experience for me, losing a child that you have raised for years much be much, much worse. So I think your sister deserves to have her grief without anyone trying to tell her how to become happy or anything like that. She needs support, and she needs people asking her what they can do to help her, rather than people telling her what she needs or how she will get over it.
As far as religion is concerned in this case, I think I'd tell her that I personally wouldn't want to be a part of any belief system where a victim (as I assume something was going on with your nephew that drove him to this) would be punished so severely he would be sent to hell. Actually, I wouldn't want to be a part of any religious group that believes everyone but them are going to hell anyway. What kind of just, caring god would set up a place of torture and everlasting suffering and use it to make threats to coerce you into "loving" him so you don't get sent there? Church leaders that harp on the whole idea of hell (which, as I understand it, the American Christian concept of hell is not biblical anyway) are pushing fear, and are not people that should be ministering to anyone.
Anyway, I'll get off of my soapbox for now because I don't think you need it, but hopefully there is something in my words that can help you. You and your family have my condolences.
I don't know if I have the answers on how, but, I think one key part of comforting your family about the idea of Michael being saved and seeing him again, is being sure that neither your sister nor anyone else is burdened by blame or guilt. I think you know something about dealing with blame and guilt for bad things that have happened from earlier in your own life, so take some lessons from yourself. I guess dealing with whatever Michael wrote could be pretty hard, but just as you, the feisty one, would no longer let anyone say it's your own fault for something bad that happened to you during your TWI years, don't let your sister blame herself for this. The same goes for the rest of the family, including your kids...and you.
But perhaps this can be best done as Rocky says...not with preaching or teaching, but with love and hugs from the expert on hugs. And by hugs, I mean whatever is the best way to give comfort to the ones you love, for you of course know better than I do what kind of hugs they need. One reason that what Rocky posted hits home came from several years ago when I was feeling generally down, and I guess it showed in my posts. To this day one of the biggest lifts I have ever received came from two e-mail notes of concern I got at that time. I think the two who sent me those notes are still around here somewhere even though i dont see much of them. It certainly wasnt any answers they gave, for they could not have known what answers to give, but it was that they showed the concern. Those were two big "hugs" that warmed me, as i say to this day. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't remember those notes, since they have no idea how important they were.
But start with this...TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF! I do my mental put-myself-in-the-other-person's-shoes thing I try to do sometimes. I try to imagine the best I can what it would be like to have lost a brother the way you did, and now have something like this happen. Don't know if I would hold together, especially if I had to deal with the physical discomfort you have had at times. Several times during and after my visit, you pointed out that Pete wasn't in great pain at the time, thanks to medication. But I always suspected YOU were going through a great non physical pain that you weren't showing outwardly.
I have some thoughts on the subject of suicide, but I just dont feel right about going into it right now; I may soon, don't know.
I will say this now about the subject. I think someone thinking about suicide may avoid it for a time because he/she knows it would cause others pain and does not want to cause hurt. However, if whatever pain he/she feels becomes too great, it may cloud the feeling of pain that others would suffer. Robi, I don't know Michael and of course dont know what he wrote in those 8 pages you mentioned, so I can just guess strongly that the LAST thing he wanted to do was cause pain for his family. But I also suspect that someone's own great pain, physical or otherwise, can become so unbearable that it can cause him/her not to function.
Thank you for some very wonderful answers here and in PM. I appreciate them so much.
First of all, an update: Right now my sister is in Virginia with her boyfriend and 15 year old son. Also there is her ex-husband, his new spouse, and her 19 year old son. She has had little contact with the 19 year old son since her very bitter divorce and there has been nothing but hatefulness and trouble from her ex. My mother, when she spoke to her today, asked her if her ex was being ok to her and my sis replied, "I guess." They have spoken to the detective and have probably already been to the funeral home. Evidently he was take to one and 'cleaned up' and my sis was told he was ok to be seen if she wanted to view him. I think she wanted to, so she may have by now (last I spoke to my mom was 3 hours ago). They will all come back to Georgia tomorrow night, very late, so I won't see her until Sunday, probably.
Back to your comments...
Bow-Twi & WG, thank you for your very kind words. Fortunately, since my brother's also traumatic death, my family has had many discussions about the Hope of the Return and we cling to that. It is a great comfort to us...and it was why I was so suprised that my sister thought her son wouldn't go to heaven because he committed suicide. I'm not sure where she learned that, but I think some mainstream churches probably teach it. I did tell her, very firmly yet lovingly, that our God was not like that at all. I think she is ok with that by now.
I STRONGLY agree that she is going to be in need of a great deal of love and comfort...and NOT in the form of bible verses being tossed her way. I think I was just wanting to make sure I had the back up verses for when I start talking to her about what happens to a saint when suicide is involved...if there is even anything in the bible about that? I don't remember that there is.
I'm not really a bible quoting type person...but I'm real good at remembering how much God loves us and will do "above all that we can ask or think." Gosh, does anyone really need to know any more than that? That about covers it, in my book....but I want to be as comforting to her as I can, you know.
I think, too, that I am most concerned about the 15 year old son. See, he was just down for a visit and he had just told his mom that he was very depressed and wanted to see about getting help for that...whether meds, counseling, or whatever. Now, I know that half the problem is solved just by an ADMISSION, so I am proud the little guy could get that out. I'm just worried that this will really lay heavy on him. I will personally see that he gets to a doctor as soon as everything dies down about Michael. In the meantime, we all plan to stay very close to him and his mom and we will do our best to love and comfort them.
Rocky, you are right...time does help. I used to say it "helped heal." Since my brother's death, though, I've begun to see it as "time helps take the sting out of death." I still hurt over my brother's death, but the hurt doesn't sting quite as bad. I'm not arguing with you at all...just sharing a little something I learned the hard way! I appreciate your words.
You are very right about watching out for people being judgemental. At this point, the family is of the consensus that he must have been in a great deal of pain to feel like this was the only thing that would ease him. Everyone wishes they could have done something, etc. So far, the comments have been loving and not of a blaming or angry nature...which is good.
I am afraid, however, what might be said when we learn what is in the 8 page letter that he left. I have spoken to my children (my kids are in their early 20's) and to my parents about us having to be VERY careful what we say or how we react when we learn what's in it. That is an awful long suicide letter. I'm concerned we are in for some bombshell news and I want us all to be prepared for it (not scared, just prepared). My 70 year old mother is the matriarch of the family and she is very conservative...she wouldn't be accepting of many types of lifestyles or situations that were too far off the straight and narrow. I have already spoken to her, as well, about how we have to be very careful not to say anything that would cause any guilt or sound judgemental.
Mr. P-Mosh, Thank you for your words, as well. I'm sorry for your losses in life. I think we would have a much better time of healing and moving on from these things if we didn't just miss the people so darn much...don't you? Not only their lives and personalities, but in the case of a child or baby, all that their live's represent for the future. *Sigh*
No, life after a suicide will not be normal for my sister or her other sons. It will be very difficult. Hopefully, the 19 year old son who's been "mad" at his mom for the past 8 years will realize that life is too short to play stupid games...and he will return to the 'fold'. I learned that after my brother's death, for sure. I remind my children often that even though 'this' person acts stupid from time to time and 'that' person is rude from time to time, they are still "family" and as such, we forgive and move on because "family is family". I've said it so many times recently when they get into tifts with other family members but it's so true! Life is just too short.
Moving on one day at a time is a good piece of advice. I will definitely remind my sister of that when she gets down. We don't have to get through the next few years with this grief. We just have to get through today. Then we will do it again tomorrow. It makes it more manageable.
Lifted, again, thank you for your heart and your friendship over the years. You are a precious friend with a huge heart. In my brother's case, I had to keep it together the whole time. I couldn't loose it. I was the one making all the decisions. My mother was non-functional in the ordeal because she couldn't handle the death of her child and she was angry at him over the way he got burned. The other siblings had other things going at the time. I could not allow myself to grieve at the time...and I think it's why it's taken me so long to get over his death. It still stings me to this day and it's been 7 or 8 years. Well, I guess one NEVER gets over the death of a loved one...it just stings a little less.
My mother did thank me, just the other day, for "bearing the burden" of Pete's ordeal. Of course I never thought of it as such. She was telling my sister that she wished she could do something to help "bear the burden" of Michael's death. She kept saying, "I feel so helpless. I wish I could do something." I told her she had already done her job...she'd raised up a couple of very strong daughter's and we would all get through this.
You know, in the past when I had periods of depression (especially during the ending of my marriage) I remember feeling so "cotton-brained". I couldn't think straight or make appropriate decisions. I have told my children that if they ever get down, and if they ever feel that way, please get help. Depression runs in our family and at that point it is time to get treatment of some sort.
Thanks again, y'all. I appreciate the tidbits of advice from people who've been there just as much as people who can tell me the biblical side of what I'm dealing with. Now we just have to see what that letter reveals. Please continue to pray for that situation.
By the way, Michael was a veteren. My sister will have his ashes interred at a military burial site here in Georgia. She also wants to keep a small portion of his ashes in a heart shaped locket that she will wear. Is that weird? I don't think I would want to do it, but if she wants to, it's her decision.
Thank you for some very wonderful answers here and in PM. I appreciate them so much.
First of all, an update: Right now my sister is in Virginia with her boyfriend and 15 year old son. Also there is her ex-husband, his new spouse, and her 19 year old son. She has had little contact with the 19 year old son since her very bitter divorce and there has been nothing but hatefulness and trouble from her ex. My mother, when she spoke to her today, asked her if her ex was being ok to her and my sis replied, "I guess." They have spoken to the detective and have probably already been to the funeral home. Evidently he was take to one and 'cleaned up' and my sis was told he was ok to be seen if she wanted to view him. I think she wanted to, so she may have by now (last I spoke to my mom was 3 hours ago). They will all come back to Georgia tomorrow night, very late, so I won't see her until Sunday, probably.
Back to your comments...
Bow-Twi & WG, thank you for your very kind words. Fortunately, since my brother's also traumatic death, my family has had many discussions about the Hope of the Return and we cling to that. It is a great comfort to us...and it was why I was so suprised that my sister thought her son wouldn't go to heaven because he committed suicide. I'm not sure where she learned that, but I think some mainstream churches probably teach it. I did tell her, very firmly yet lovingly, that our God was not like that at all. I think she is ok with that by now.
I STRONGLY agree that she is going to be in need of a great deal of love and comfort...and NOT in the form of bible verses being tossed her way. I think I was just wanting to make sure I had the back up verses for when I start talking to her about what happens to a saint when suicide is involved...if there is even anything in the bible about that? I don't remember that there is.
I'm not really a bible quoting type person...but I'm real good at remembering how much God loves us and will do "above all that we can ask or think." Gosh, does anyone really need to know any more than that? That about covers it, in my book....but I want to be as comforting to her as I can, you know.
I think, too, that I am most concerned about the 15 year old son. See, he was just down for a visit and he had just told his mom that he was very depressed and wanted to see about getting help for that...whether meds, counseling, or whatever. Now, I know that half the problem is solved just by an ADMISSION, so I am proud the little guy could get that out. I'm just worried that this will really lay heavy on him. I will personally see that he gets to a doctor as soon as everything dies down about Michael. In the meantime, we all plan to stay very close to him and his mom and we will do our best to love and comfort them.
Rocky, you are right...time does help. I used to say it "helped heal." Since my brother's death, though, I've begun to see it as "time helps take the sting out of death." I still hurt over my brother's death, but the hurt doesn't sting quite as bad. I'm not arguing with you at all...just sharing a little something I learned the hard way! I appreciate your words.
You are very right about watching out for people being judgemental. At this point, the family is of the consensus that he must have been in a great deal of pain to feel like this was the only thing that would ease him. Everyone wishes they could have done something, etc. So far, the comments have been loving and not of a blaming or angry nature...which is good.
I am afraid, however, what might be said when we learn what is in the 8 page letter that he left. I have spoken to my children (my kids are in their early 20's) and to my parents about us having to be VERY careful what we say or how we react when we learn what's in it. That is an awful long suicide letter. I'm concerned we are in for some bombshell news and I want us all to be prepared for it (not scared, just prepared). My 70 year old mother is the matriarch of the family and she is very conservative...she wouldn't be accepting of many types of lifestyles or situations that were too far off the straight and narrow. I have already spoken to her, as well, about how we have to be very careful not to say anything that would cause any guilt or sound judgemental.
Mr. P-Mosh, Thank you for your words, as well. I'm sorry for your losses in life. I think we would have a much better time of healing and moving on from these things if we didn't just miss the people so darn much...don't you? Not only their lives and personalities, but in the case of a child or baby, all that their live's represent for the future. *Sigh*
No, life after a suicide will not be normal for my sister or her other sons. It will be very difficult. Hopefully, the 19 year old son who's been "mad" at his mom for the past 8 years will realize that life is too short to play stupid games...and he will return to the 'fold'. I learned that after my brother's death, for sure. I remind my children often that even though 'this' person acts stupid from time to time and 'that' person is rude from time to time, they are still "family" and as such, we forgive and move on because "family is family". I've said it so many times recently when they get into tifts with other family members but it's so true! Life is just too short.
Moving on one day at a time is a good piece of advice. I will definitely remind my sister of that when she gets down. We don't have to get through the next few years with this grief. We just have to get through today. Then we will do it again tomorrow. It makes it more manageable.
Lifted, again, thank you for your heart and your friendship over the years. You are a precious friend with a huge heart. In my brother's case, I had to keep it together the whole time. I couldn't loose it. I was the one making all the decisions. My mother was non-functional in the ordeal because she couldn't handle the death of her child and she was angry at him over the way he got burned. The other siblings had other things going at the time. I could not allow myself to grieve at the time...and I think it's why it's taken me so long to get over his death. It still stings me to this day and it's been 7 or 8 years. Well, I guess one NEVER gets over the death of a loved one...it just stings a little less.
My mother did thank me, just the other day, for "bearing the burden" of Pete's ordeal. Of course I never thought of it as such. She was telling my sister that she wished she could do something to help "bear the burden" of Michael's death. She kept saying, "I feel so helpless. I wish I could do something." I told her she had already done her job...she'd raised up a couple of very strong daughter's and we would all get through this.
You know, in the past when I had periods of depression (especially during the ending of my marriage) I remember feeling so "cotton-brained". I couldn't think straight or make appropriate decisions. I have told my children that if they ever get down, and if they ever feel that way, please get help. Depression runs in our family and at that point it is time to get treatment of some sort.
Thanks again, y'all. I appreciate the tidbits of advice from people who've been there just as much as people who can tell me the biblical side of what I'm dealing with. Now we just have to see what that letter reveals. Please continue to pray for that situation.
By the way, Michael was a veteren. My sister will have his ashes interred at a military burial site here in Georgia. She also wants to keep a small portion of his ashes in a heart shaped locket that she will wear. Is that weird? I don't think I would want to do it, but if she wants to, it's her decision.
hugs,
Robi
Robi,
Your post reflects a great deal of thought and experience. That insight will be a shining light for your family in the days ahead. Your sister will, no doubt, be helped and comforted tremendously by that.
I'm not sure that there is a right thing to say, but Rom 3:25, 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10 tell us that Jesus was the propitiation for our sins. That means past present and future. Some people believe that a suicide is condemned because they are unable to confess their sin. This would mean that salvation was by works.
Col 2:14 tells us that Jesus took the law to the cross with him and Rom 5:13 tells us that sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
I first noticed your post an hour or so ago and could not bring myself to read it. I kept reading other posts, would click back, look at the title and could not bring myself to open it. Four years ago this coming November our lives were where yours is at this moment. In so many ways our life is still there.
First let me say, love, that I know your shock, disbelief and unimaginable grief stricken pain. Our precious Josh, my sister's first born, the first baby among my siblings, hung himself just five weeks after he was married. Their daughter was a little baby. At their wedding I said to myself, look how much they adore each other. They are going to be so happy.
To this day we are still left wondering why he committed suicide. We have no answers. I can't begin to tell you how this has affected our family. To this day his wife has never recovered. She worshipped the ground he walked on. It has only been in the last couple of months that my sister has begun to "pull herself together." Her other two children have been so adversely affected by this that they started making decisions, like my sister, that were so totally the opposite of who they were before his suicide.
We have never been the same and never will be. I have been so long putting this together that I almost forget what you asked. I have had to take a couple of breaks from writing. Very emotional. Just hug and hold each other and cry together. Right now there is no comfort. There is no help anyone can give. There is only unspeakable grief. When a child takes his own life that is a different kind of death. How is a mother comforted when she loses her child. I don't think the pain and grief ever goes away.
Phew, my heart and prayers are with you and yours.
I first noticed your post an hour or so ago and could not bring myself to read it. I kept reading other posts, would click back, look at the title and could not bring myself to open it. Four years ago this coming November our lives were where yours is at this moment. In so many ways our life is still there.
First let me say, love, that I know your shock, disbelief and unimaginable grief stricken pain. Our precious Josh, my sister's first born, the first baby among my siblings, hung himself just five weeks after he was married. Their daughter was a little baby. At their wedding I said to myself, look how much they adore each other. They are going to be so happy.
To this day we are still left wondering why he committed suicide. We have no answers. I can't begin to tell you how this has affected our family. To this day his wife has never recovered. She worshipped the ground he walked on. It has only been in the last couple of months that my sister has begun to "pull herself together." Her other two children have been so adversely affected by this that they started making decisions, like my sister, that were so totally the opposite of who they were before his suicide.
We have never been the same and never will be. I have been so long putting this together that I almost forget what you asked. I have had to take a couple of breaks from writing. Very emotional. Just hug and hold each other and cry together. Right now there is no comfort. There is no help anyone can give. There is only unspeakable grief. When a child takes his own life that is a different kind of death. How is a mother comforted when she loses her child. I don't think the pain and grief ever goes away.
Phew, my heart and prayers are with you and yours.
Kimberly, sounds like you and Robi could hook up and give each other a lot of love support. And now that I've said it once, I'll shut up about it and back out of your business, since it is easy enough to do it if you want to. I guess all I can do is to think of you two, and especially your sisters and rest of family not hurting so much, and let someone in higher authority (!) work out the details.
i am sooo sorry to hear about your family's loss...
words are so inadequate at a time like this,
but i do want to let you know that my thoughts and prayers are with you...
two years ago, this month, a very close friend of one of my sons committted suicide by shooting himself in the head... he was only 16 years old, and there was no warning... his mother came home from the grocery store around 10am and found him in the backyard... it was very tragic... my son had played basketball with him a couple of days earlier, and said that he showed no signs that anything was wrong... he was his normal, cheerful, outgoing self... he had a ton of friends, he had a job he liked, school was out for the summer... none of his friends had a clue that there was anything out of the ordinary going on...
the funeral was one of the most heart-wrenching things i have ever experienced... (i wrote about this on the oddlist at the time)... and i still get choked up thinking about it... he was a twin, and had a very large family (along with stepfather, stepmother situation)... his twin got up to speak first... and then every member of his family got up in turn to say their final words... the chapel was filled to capacity with folks standing in the side aisles and in the back all the way out the door and onto the patio... there must have been 300 to 400 high school students there... but there was NO teaching or sermon at all... the family put on a power point presentation on a large screen above the closed casket... with an endless collage of pictures of the boy with friends and family at every stage of his life, set to music (songs like freebird, etc.)... it was very touching, and not a dry eye in the place...
but after the power point, instead of having a teaching/sermon, they opened up the mike for anyone to come up and speak... and one by one, those high school students came down to the mike and choked out their good-byes... (truly heart-wrenching)... but who says there has to be a sermon at a funeral?
i thought it was very well done with the pictures and music and everyone getting a chance to speak... the pastor barely said anything... the family and friends were in charge...
as far as suicide and heaven is concerned, i agree with caveman... Jesus is a complete Savior!... i think the idea of not being able to go to heaven if you commit suicide comes from RC doctrine... they are into all that sacrament stuff... and i guess they think that if you don't get "the last rites", then you aren't "cleared" to go to heaven... of course, i think all of that is nonsense... Jesus said: "Those whom You gave Me I have kept, and NONE of them is lost"... certainly God is not going to require that people jump thru the hoop of confessing their sins to a man to fulfill some "last rites" sacrament before one can go to heaven... that's ludicrous!... going to heaven is NOT contingent upon ANYTHING that a person does (other than accepting the Savior) but confessing one's sins to a man falls under the category of works (as caveman has pointed out)... and we all know that we are not saved by works...
robi, i am convinced and completely assured that committing suicide does NOT prevent someone from going to heaven... probably the only thing that your sister will be able to absorb in a time like this (emotional shock, i would suspect) is you reassuring her that suicide does not prevent someone from going to heaven...
(((robi))), i will keep you and your family in prayer!
If suicide is a sin, what difference does it make? If I can be saved in spite of my multitude of various sins, why would God exclude Michael or Josh or jen-o's son's friend or anyone else?
One of the most despicable things taught in TWI was that suicide is caused by devil spirit possession.
Any of life's complex problems were always reduced to some idiotically simplistic explanation.
You say you are depressed?---devil spirit.
You say you have an alcohol problem?---devil spirit.
You say have cancer?---devil spirit.
And on and on the list goes.
Yes, I have my own "suicide incident" that I have shared here. In my opinion, TWI was culpable (but this thread isn't the place to discuss it.)
People don't need teachings and scriptures and explanations at a time like this. They need to know that people care about them and about helping them cope. They need for people to help with the very real physical tasks that come with the situation such as sorting through belongings, financial obligations, and so on.
Let them grieve for as long as they need to. Sometimes that's forever. There is no magic formula that can produce all the answers.
Oh Kimberly, my love and prayers are with you and your family for continued healing. I needed to hear from people who've gone through it, as well as from people who could teach me what I needed to know from the biblical standpoint. I'm sorry you had to go through it. I know it was very difficult for you to read, let alone post, but I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Please keep in touch and let me know of your family's continued healing as we continue to pray for them. Sweetie, one of the things I would suggest to you is to lay it out here and have our GS family help you work through it. It is what has helped me through so many crisis' (sp) in my life. I've always been able to count on coming here to get answers from people who've been through it and who can add a biblical knowledge to it all.
People don't need teachings and scriptures and explanations at a time like this. They need to know that people care about them and about helping them cope. They need for people to help with the very real physical tasks that come with the situation such as sorting through belongings, financial obligations, and so on.
Let them grieve for as long as they need to. Sometimes that's forever. There is no magic formula that can produce all the answers.
Waysider, I agree. I wouldn't want just scriptures being thrown at me. But I would, however, want someone to be able to speak to me in an educated manner, based on biblical scripture, about the situation.
Caveman has done an EXCELLENT job of that. Thank you very much for the scripture back up. You see, I know the general principle, but I wasn't able to logically teach it to my sister. I will now be able to, when she is ready. Right now, all she needed to know was that it was NOT true that suicide meant not going to heaven. That's exactly why I posted here, and I thank you.
We all have learned from coming here that we tend to grieve in different ways, at different speeds. I will keep gently reminding my family of that if it should become a problem. Waysider, your reminder of the different grieving was timely. Thank you. As was your mention of how TWI simplified everything down to a devil spirit. That is something I would certainly NOT want to hit my sister in the face with...."Oh, your son committed suicide because HE WAS POSSESSED BY THE DEVIL!" How hateful it was for them to teach us that...and how especially hateful it was for them to not ever allow us to grieve when we had losses. A period of grieving is so very necessary when there is a loss, no matter how small or large! I was thinking just exactly what you wrote about the devil spirits.
Jen-o, now I remember your telling us about your son's friend. I know I've seen several discussions of suicide here and I appreciate the reminders. Thank you for your prayers.
Lifted, thank you for giving me the location of one of those discussions of suicide in PM. I will definitely go there and read about it to see what I can learn.
Jim, thank you for your message. I can only hope and pray that you never have to go through a dark period again. It boils down to people reaching out for help when they are down, I think.
Many times I hear people have gotten counseling or tried a medication for depression only to quickly decide that it's not helping. I can only encourage people to try many different counselors and several different types of medications before they give up on that type of 'help'. Every body is different. There is no ONE answer...but many, and some work better than others for each individual.
Thank you to all of you who have prayed. I feel like I've gotten a reprieve, a chance to gather myself, while my sister went to get her son's body. For that I am very thankful. It has allowed me to get some very good information to have on hand for when she asks questions. Our time will come in the days after his funeral service.
Michael was cremated last night and my sister is now on her way back to Georgia from Virginia with his remains. She will be here either late tonight or sometime tomorrow, if they stop and stay somewhere. She has already had one 'breakdown' where she became a little kooky about something, but I think she's entitled...she had just seen her son with a gunshot wound to his head...(God Bless her...I still don't think I could do that with my kid). Anyways, she is calmer today, and that's good. Tomorrow (Sunday) is the day we will all get together again at my mothers to mourn and figure out where we go from here. Please keep praying because that will certainly be a hard day for all.
I have heard a little more about what is in that letter...it seems it has to do with his mom and his adopted father (my sisters 2nd husband, who adopted Michael when they married when he was about 8 or so) and how badly his father treated his mom during (and after) the divorce. From what I understand, he is blaming his adopted father for causing my sister so much grief during the divorce and for splitting up the family...but I'm sure there is more. After all, that was about 8 years ago. Since then, there has been a lot of bad blood, but I'm not sure what his take on it all has been. At least this shows us that he understands his mother was not the one at fault. Whatever... oh, it seems he started writing that letter about 2 weeks ago. That's the saddest part.
Actually, guys, I am doing very well through this. Although it hurts me tremendously to see my sister and the rest of my family hurting, I cling to The Hope. It is such a comfort to me. As are you all. Thank you again for your thoughts and prayers.
Tomorrow will indeed be a day of sorrow. There will be many days of sorrow to follow, particularly for your sister. I will be thinking of you and your family and holding you all up in prayer. There is a national organization called Compassionate Friends. It is for families who have lost children. I am sure there are other organizations with different names. This support group has been a tremendous healing for my friend Vonda who lost her baby daughter, age 19, five months before Josh died. Her daughter was killed in a car accident.
The last words my sister and Josh spoke to each other were ugly. They had an argument about money. My sister said some things, Josh said some things. They departed ways. He died less than a week later. They never made up. To this day that is the part that grieves me the most. When my sister was told of his death the first words out of her mouth were, "Josh died mad at me." The rest of the family doesn't know if that is really so. But when he died my sister was still angry with him. Their last conversation taught the rest of us a valuable life lesson.
One day we will all be together again. Thank you Father that you have provided us with the Hope.
Tomorrow will indeed be a day of sorrow. There will be many days of sorrow to follow, particularly for your sister. I will be thinking of you and your family and holding you all up in prayer. There is a national organization called Compassionate Friends. It is for families who have lost children. I am sure there are other organizations with different names. This support group has been a tremendous healing for my friend Vonda who lost her baby daughter, age 19, five months before Josh died. Her daughter was killed in a car accident.
The last words my sister and Josh spoke to each other were ugly. They had an argument about money. My sister said some things, Josh said some things. They departed ways. He died less than a week later. They never made up. To this day that is the part that grieves me the most. When my sister was told of his death the first words out of her mouth were, "Josh died mad at me." The rest of the family doesn't know if that is really so. But when he died my sister was still angry with him. Their last conversation taught the rest of us a valuable life lesson.
One day we will all be together again. Thank you Father that you have provided us with the Hope.
We all have learned from coming here that we tend to grieve in different ways, at different speeds. I will keep gently reminding my family of that if it should become a problem. Waysider, your reminder of the different grieving was timely. Thank you. As was your mention of how TWI simplified everything down to a devil spirit. That is something I would certainly NOT want to hit my sister in the face with...."Oh, your son committed suicide because HE WAS POSSESSED BY THE DEVIL!" How hateful it was for them to teach us that...and how especially hateful it was for them to not ever allow us to grieve when we had losses. A period of grieving is so very necessary when there is a loss, no matter how small or large!
Indeed, we ALL grieve... we all NEED to grieve.
Thank you to all of you who have prayed. I feel like I've gotten a reprieve, a chance to gather myself, while my sister went to get her son's body. For that I am very thankful. It has allowed me to get some very good information to have on hand for when she asks questions. Our time will come in the days after his funeral service.
snip
Michael was cremated last night and my sister is now on her way back to Georgia from Virginia with his remains. She will be here either late tonight or sometime tomorrow, if they stop and stay somewhere. She has already had one 'breakdown' where she became a little kooky about something, but I think she's entitled...she had just seen her son with a gunshot wound to his head...(God Bless her...I still don't think I could do that with my kid). Anyways, she is calmer today, and that's good. Tomorrow (Sunday) is the day we will all get together again at my mothers to mourn and figure out where we go from here. Please keep praying because that will certainly be a hard day for all.
snip
Actually, guys, I am doing very well through this. Although it hurts me tremendously to see my sister and the rest of my family hurting, I cling to The Hope. It is such a comfort to me. As are you all. Thank you again for your thoughts and prayers.
love,
Robi
Your family needs a rock right now. You represent that Rock. They can see you. They can hear you. They can touch (hug) you.
Indeed, I admire your composure. I have NO doubt that you also feel the emotional pain. But I'm thankful that you will be there to speak the soft assurances, to guide and focus.
And I'm glad you know to ask for support when you need it too.
robi, actually one of the reasons i posted the story about my son's friend was because you had voiced some concerns over who to get to do the service and what would they "teach"... i was just trying to let you know that there were other options (other than having someone "teach")... the service for my son's friend was very beautifully done without a "teaching/sermon"... it's just a suggestion... my aunt's service was done in my father's home, and people got up to read poems and letters they had written directly to her or to share memories about her... (again, there was no "teaching").. there are a lot of ways to personalize the service to honor the person's life... anyway, it's just a suggestion...
btw, i no longer believe in twi's version of soul sleep... i now believe literally that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and that upon "death", one goes immediately to be with the Lord (without some kind of period of suspended animation)... for if we have already received the gift of eternal life, then that moment we receive it is when our eternal life starts... it is a great comfort to know that my loved ones who have passed on are currently WITH the Lord (and not in some sort of limbo)...
Rocky, you have been incredibly loving and supportive in this. Thank you very much for that. I appreciate it more than you know.
Jen-o, yes, I did catch the reference to the service as being a little different from the usual, but very healing for the friends and family left behind. That is definitely a thought. I guess we will talk about what sort of service my sister wants when we gather today.
I actually did my brother's service a few years ago when he died, although I was never a great twig leader or teacher back in TWI days. I just shared the Hope of the Return with everyone. His girlfriend spoke about him as well. It was a very beautiful, loving service. My brother would have loved it because he HATED it when he went to funerals and it was so obvious that the person speaking did not know the deceased. I thought he would have liked it better for me to do it. My mother loved it and it seemed to be very comforting to those who were there.
I spoke to my sister tonight. She sounded good. She called me to make arrangements for the family dinner tomorrow afternoon! I had to laugh at that...my mother is the greatest cook ever, and I was even planning on making some things to bring, but her boyfriend wants to cook steaks for us all and she was busy organizing that and sounding, well, almost cheerful about it. Actually, she did say that she was having good moments as well as bad, but that she was hanging in ok. That was good to hear. And it was good to have her keep busy planning a meal.
I actually wasn't sure she would want the entire family gathering at my mom's tomorrow (where she is staying through this) when she will just be getting back from such an ordeal...but she said she would welcome the distraction. That was good that we got to clarify.
One thing I mentioned to her was how I always endeavored to beat the devil at his games by making something good come out of something bad. I told her that it was my hope and prayer that somehow, someway, we could all see some good come out of this horrific experience...whether it was her younger son getting the help he needed for his depression and becoming a happy boy, or whether her 2nd son would finally see that his "pouting" for the past few years and not talking to his mom was stupid in light of the big picture. Or whatever. Anyways, she got the message and agreed. Hopefully, we will see some good out of it all.
The good thing is that when I talked with her tonight, her heart was not terribly heavy...and that is an answer to prayer.
Kimberly, I'm so sorry words of anger were the last ones spoken between your sister and Josh. How awful to have to live with that. After my brother was burned, then lingered barely alive for 3 months before passing, I swore I would learn something from it. Anytime my daughter, or son, would get mad with someone in the family, I would remind them that they could be mad, but they were still family. It has kept their hearts open and softer than they might otherwise have been had it not been for the things we experienced. I will continue to pray for your family. And you, my dear.
Thank you again, to all of you. My son arrived tonight. I just tucked him in and now I will go to bed in anticipation of a busy day on Sunday. Thank you for your continued prayers. I can see they have been working in a big way!
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Watered Garden
Dearest Robes,
First of all, my deepest sympathy to you and your family. You are in my prayers.
I would just guard against well meaning people who can be a little judgmental. Hang around and listen to what people say who come to offer their condolences.
I know this isn't very specific but it's what came to mind.
I don't know of any book chapter and verse where it says suicides go to hell. Good grief!
Right now, people are going to need comfort and love and understanding.
It's not much but I'm no scholar, and I just really wanted to say I care and I'm praying for you.
WG
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Lifted Up
Dear Robes,
My thoughts are with you and I will have more to say soon.
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bowtwi
Robes,
My mom killed herself when I was 18. I got involved with twi not long after and for all my years in twi, I was angry with my mother, considered her weak, was sure she was going to hell and I'd never see her again. It took me quite a few years after leaving twi to sort through my feelings and beliefs.
Today, I believe that I will see my mom again, just as you will see your nephew. I believe God is a compassionate God and I just don't see him punishing Michael, much less your entire family for the suicide.
I think that God understands Michael's pain more than any of us could and that he loves him, as well as your sister and your entire family.
I think of Michael as I do my own mom, at rest now, awaiting the return, when his next waking thought will be Jesus tapping him gently on the shoulder telling him it's time to wake up and join the gathering together, reuniting with his loved ones without the pain of today.
My prayers are with your family.
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Rocky
The thing that comes to my mind is that what your sister and nephews need now is NOT teaching.
They need gentle words of comfort and hope.
If anything, be watchful of those others who might be judgemental and be ready with soft, but if and when necessary firm, words of comfort and hope.
No teaching will take away any pain, emotional or physical, at a time like this.
Hugs and assurances of God's love and your love can bring a touch of comfort.
But for the pain to subside, time is the only other thing that will help.
Grieving, as you know from experiencing the loss of loved ones in the past, is inevitable.
And trust that you already have the bottom line knowledge of the hope to share with your family.
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Mister P-Mosh
I think part of the problem is this idea of trying to get past a death, no matter if it's suicide or not. I haven't had to deal with a lot of loved ones dying yet, but the one who has that bothered me the most is one of my grandfathers. He was very influential in my life, and was like a father to me when my own biological father absolved himself of responsibility, prior to my stepfather coming into the picture. In many ways, my grandfather molded me to be who I am today. He was a WWII vet, a survivor of many deadly things, as well as a father, grandfather, and intellectual. He was a great leader that kept my entire family as much in line as was possible.
After he died, I started noticing all the things that reminded me of him in myself and others. By feeling his absence, I felt that I understood more about him than I had when he was alive. I wish he were alive today and would have been able to meet his great-granddaughter and any other future great-grandchildren. I'm glad my grandmother has been able to be around to see everything that is happening. Still, he's gone, and there is nothing I can do. I still feel his loss whenever I think about him, and I will never forget him, or even try to forget. This is part of life. We lose people we love in life, even sometimes in tragic ways when they are too young. It's a horrible thing, and it is not something you can "move on" from. However, you can learn to be ok and you can live the rest of your life. For your sister, I don't think that she can go on with her normal life for quite some time. If she seems to be ok now or in the next few weeks, that's probably going to precede a huge meltdown. I have a friend whose son committed suicide, and she had to try to cope by keeping herself and her other son busy, for her to not drink alcohol for a while, and make a few small changes in her life. She's not perfect, and she is spoiling her youngest son. However, she survived and is able to function in society. She laughs at jokes and enjoys her life. It's just that it takes time to get to that point, and for a parent, it takes time.
For me, when my wife had a miscarriage a few years ago, I found it to be devastating. It's good I was already an atheist or I would have been extremely angry at whatever deities I would have perceived to be responsible. While a kid you haven't met and don't know yet was a horrible experience for me, losing a child that you have raised for years much be much, much worse. So I think your sister deserves to have her grief without anyone trying to tell her how to become happy or anything like that. She needs support, and she needs people asking her what they can do to help her, rather than people telling her what she needs or how she will get over it.
As far as religion is concerned in this case, I think I'd tell her that I personally wouldn't want to be a part of any belief system where a victim (as I assume something was going on with your nephew that drove him to this) would be punished so severely he would be sent to hell. Actually, I wouldn't want to be a part of any religious group that believes everyone but them are going to hell anyway. What kind of just, caring god would set up a place of torture and everlasting suffering and use it to make threats to coerce you into "loving" him so you don't get sent there? Church leaders that harp on the whole idea of hell (which, as I understand it, the American Christian concept of hell is not biblical anyway) are pushing fear, and are not people that should be ministering to anyone.
Anyway, I'll get off of my soapbox for now because I don't think you need it, but hopefully there is something in my words that can help you. You and your family have my condolences.
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Lifted Up
I don't know if I have the answers on how, but, I think one key part of comforting your family about the idea of Michael being saved and seeing him again, is being sure that neither your sister nor anyone else is burdened by blame or guilt. I think you know something about dealing with blame and guilt for bad things that have happened from earlier in your own life, so take some lessons from yourself. I guess dealing with whatever Michael wrote could be pretty hard, but just as you, the feisty one, would no longer let anyone say it's your own fault for something bad that happened to you during your TWI years, don't let your sister blame herself for this. The same goes for the rest of the family, including your kids...and you.
But perhaps this can be best done as Rocky says...not with preaching or teaching, but with love and hugs from the expert on hugs. And by hugs, I mean whatever is the best way to give comfort to the ones you love, for you of course know better than I do what kind of hugs they need. One reason that what Rocky posted hits home came from several years ago when I was feeling generally down, and I guess it showed in my posts. To this day one of the biggest lifts I have ever received came from two e-mail notes of concern I got at that time. I think the two who sent me those notes are still around here somewhere even though i dont see much of them. It certainly wasnt any answers they gave, for they could not have known what answers to give, but it was that they showed the concern. Those were two big "hugs" that warmed me, as i say to this day. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't remember those notes, since they have no idea how important they were.
But start with this...TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF! I do my mental put-myself-in-the-other-person's-shoes thing I try to do sometimes. I try to imagine the best I can what it would be like to have lost a brother the way you did, and now have something like this happen. Don't know if I would hold together, especially if I had to deal with the physical discomfort you have had at times. Several times during and after my visit, you pointed out that Pete wasn't in great pain at the time, thanks to medication. But I always suspected YOU were going through a great non physical pain that you weren't showing outwardly.
I have some thoughts on the subject of suicide, but I just dont feel right about going into it right now; I may soon, don't know.
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Lifted Up
I will say this now about the subject. I think someone thinking about suicide may avoid it for a time because he/she knows it would cause others pain and does not want to cause hurt. However, if whatever pain he/she feels becomes too great, it may cloud the feeling of pain that others would suffer. Robi, I don't know Michael and of course dont know what he wrote in those 8 pages you mentioned, so I can just guess strongly that the LAST thing he wanted to do was cause pain for his family. But I also suspect that someone's own great pain, physical or otherwise, can become so unbearable that it can cause him/her not to function.
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Robes
Thank you for some very wonderful answers here and in PM. I appreciate them so much.
First of all, an update: Right now my sister is in Virginia with her boyfriend and 15 year old son. Also there is her ex-husband, his new spouse, and her 19 year old son. She has had little contact with the 19 year old son since her very bitter divorce and there has been nothing but hatefulness and trouble from her ex. My mother, when she spoke to her today, asked her if her ex was being ok to her and my sis replied, "I guess." They have spoken to the detective and have probably already been to the funeral home. Evidently he was take to one and 'cleaned up' and my sis was told he was ok to be seen if she wanted to view him. I think she wanted to, so she may have by now (last I spoke to my mom was 3 hours ago). They will all come back to Georgia tomorrow night, very late, so I won't see her until Sunday, probably.
Back to your comments...
Bow-Twi & WG, thank you for your very kind words. Fortunately, since my brother's also traumatic death, my family has had many discussions about the Hope of the Return and we cling to that. It is a great comfort to us...and it was why I was so suprised that my sister thought her son wouldn't go to heaven because he committed suicide. I'm not sure where she learned that, but I think some mainstream churches probably teach it. I did tell her, very firmly yet lovingly, that our God was not like that at all. I think she is ok with that by now.
I STRONGLY agree that she is going to be in need of a great deal of love and comfort...and NOT in the form of bible verses being tossed her way. I think I was just wanting to make sure I had the back up verses for when I start talking to her about what happens to a saint when suicide is involved...if there is even anything in the bible about that? I don't remember that there is.
I'm not really a bible quoting type person...but I'm real good at remembering how much God loves us and will do "above all that we can ask or think." Gosh, does anyone really need to know any more than that? That about covers it, in my book....but I want to be as comforting to her as I can, you know.
I think, too, that I am most concerned about the 15 year old son. See, he was just down for a visit and he had just told his mom that he was very depressed and wanted to see about getting help for that...whether meds, counseling, or whatever. Now, I know that half the problem is solved just by an ADMISSION, so I am proud the little guy could get that out. I'm just worried that this will really lay heavy on him. I will personally see that he gets to a doctor as soon as everything dies down about Michael. In the meantime, we all plan to stay very close to him and his mom and we will do our best to love and comfort them.
Rocky, you are right...time does help. I used to say it "helped heal." Since my brother's death, though, I've begun to see it as "time helps take the sting out of death." I still hurt over my brother's death, but the hurt doesn't sting quite as bad. I'm not arguing with you at all...just sharing a little something I learned the hard way! I appreciate your words.
You are very right about watching out for people being judgemental. At this point, the family is of the consensus that he must have been in a great deal of pain to feel like this was the only thing that would ease him. Everyone wishes they could have done something, etc. So far, the comments have been loving and not of a blaming or angry nature...which is good.
I am afraid, however, what might be said when we learn what is in the 8 page letter that he left. I have spoken to my children (my kids are in their early 20's) and to my parents about us having to be VERY careful what we say or how we react when we learn what's in it. That is an awful long suicide letter. I'm concerned we are in for some bombshell news and I want us all to be prepared for it (not scared, just prepared). My 70 year old mother is the matriarch of the family and she is very conservative...she wouldn't be accepting of many types of lifestyles or situations that were too far off the straight and narrow. I have already spoken to her, as well, about how we have to be very careful not to say anything that would cause any guilt or sound judgemental.
Mr. P-Mosh, Thank you for your words, as well. I'm sorry for your losses in life. I think we would have a much better time of healing and moving on from these things if we didn't just miss the people so darn much...don't you? Not only their lives and personalities, but in the case of a child or baby, all that their live's represent for the future. *Sigh*
No, life after a suicide will not be normal for my sister or her other sons. It will be very difficult. Hopefully, the 19 year old son who's been "mad" at his mom for the past 8 years will realize that life is too short to play stupid games...and he will return to the 'fold'. I learned that after my brother's death, for sure. I remind my children often that even though 'this' person acts stupid from time to time and 'that' person is rude from time to time, they are still "family" and as such, we forgive and move on because "family is family". I've said it so many times recently when they get into tifts with other family members but it's so true! Life is just too short.
Moving on one day at a time is a good piece of advice. I will definitely remind my sister of that when she gets down. We don't have to get through the next few years with this grief. We just have to get through today. Then we will do it again tomorrow. It makes it more manageable.
Lifted, again, thank you for your heart and your friendship over the years. You are a precious friend with a huge heart. In my brother's case, I had to keep it together the whole time. I couldn't loose it. I was the one making all the decisions. My mother was non-functional in the ordeal because she couldn't handle the death of her child and she was angry at him over the way he got burned. The other siblings had other things going at the time. I could not allow myself to grieve at the time...and I think it's why it's taken me so long to get over his death. It still stings me to this day and it's been 7 or 8 years. Well, I guess one NEVER gets over the death of a loved one...it just stings a little less.
My mother did thank me, just the other day, for "bearing the burden" of Pete's ordeal. Of course I never thought of it as such. She was telling my sister that she wished she could do something to help "bear the burden" of Michael's death. She kept saying, "I feel so helpless. I wish I could do something." I told her she had already done her job...she'd raised up a couple of very strong daughter's and we would all get through this.
You know, in the past when I had periods of depression (especially during the ending of my marriage) I remember feeling so "cotton-brained". I couldn't think straight or make appropriate decisions. I have told my children that if they ever get down, and if they ever feel that way, please get help. Depression runs in our family and at that point it is time to get treatment of some sort.
Thanks again, y'all. I appreciate the tidbits of advice from people who've been there just as much as people who can tell me the biblical side of what I'm dealing with. Now we just have to see what that letter reveals. Please continue to pray for that situation.
By the way, Michael was a veteren. My sister will have his ashes interred at a military burial site here in Georgia. She also wants to keep a small portion of his ashes in a heart shaped locket that she will wear. Is that weird? I don't think I would want to do it, but if she wants to, it's her decision.
hugs,
Robi
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Rocky
Robi,
Your post reflects a great deal of thought and experience. That insight will be a shining light for your family in the days ahead. Your sister will, no doubt, be helped and comforted tremendously by that.
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Jim
I've been in your shoes and it hurts to think of all the pain you're going through.
My life was gray for nearly a year. Things will slowly get better.
I wished I had more to say. You're in my thoughts.
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Caveman
I'm not sure that there is a right thing to say, but Rom 3:25, 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10 tell us that Jesus was the propitiation for our sins. That means past present and future. Some people believe that a suicide is condemned because they are unable to confess their sin. This would mean that salvation was by works.
Col 2:14 tells us that Jesus took the law to the cross with him and Rom 5:13 tells us that sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
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kimberly
Robi,
I first noticed your post an hour or so ago and could not bring myself to read it. I kept reading other posts, would click back, look at the title and could not bring myself to open it. Four years ago this coming November our lives were where yours is at this moment. In so many ways our life is still there.
First let me say, love, that I know your shock, disbelief and unimaginable grief stricken pain. Our precious Josh, my sister's first born, the first baby among my siblings, hung himself just five weeks after he was married. Their daughter was a little baby. At their wedding I said to myself, look how much they adore each other. They are going to be so happy.
To this day we are still left wondering why he committed suicide. We have no answers. I can't begin to tell you how this has affected our family. To this day his wife has never recovered. She worshipped the ground he walked on. It has only been in the last couple of months that my sister has begun to "pull herself together." Her other two children have been so adversely affected by this that they started making decisions, like my sister, that were so totally the opposite of who they were before his suicide.
We have never been the same and never will be. I have been so long putting this together that I almost forget what you asked. I have had to take a couple of breaks from writing. Very emotional. Just hug and hold each other and cry together. Right now there is no comfort. There is no help anyone can give. There is only unspeakable grief. When a child takes his own life that is a different kind of death. How is a mother comforted when she loses her child. I don't think the pain and grief ever goes away.
Phew, my heart and prayers are with you and yours.
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Lifted Up
Kimberly, sounds like you and Robi could hook up and give each other a lot of love support. And now that I've said it once, I'll shut up about it and back out of your business, since it is easy enough to do it if you want to. I guess all I can do is to think of you two, and especially your sisters and rest of family not hurting so much, and let someone in higher authority (!) work out the details.
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jen-o
((((robi))))
i am sooo sorry to hear about your family's loss...
words are so inadequate at a time like this,
but i do want to let you know that my thoughts and prayers are with you...
two years ago, this month, a very close friend of one of my sons committted suicide by shooting himself in the head... he was only 16 years old, and there was no warning... his mother came home from the grocery store around 10am and found him in the backyard... it was very tragic... my son had played basketball with him a couple of days earlier, and said that he showed no signs that anything was wrong... he was his normal, cheerful, outgoing self... he had a ton of friends, he had a job he liked, school was out for the summer... none of his friends had a clue that there was anything out of the ordinary going on...
the funeral was one of the most heart-wrenching things i have ever experienced... (i wrote about this on the oddlist at the time)... and i still get choked up thinking about it... he was a twin, and had a very large family (along with stepfather, stepmother situation)... his twin got up to speak first... and then every member of his family got up in turn to say their final words... the chapel was filled to capacity with folks standing in the side aisles and in the back all the way out the door and onto the patio... there must have been 300 to 400 high school students there... but there was NO teaching or sermon at all... the family put on a power point presentation on a large screen above the closed casket... with an endless collage of pictures of the boy with friends and family at every stage of his life, set to music (songs like freebird, etc.)... it was very touching, and not a dry eye in the place...
but after the power point, instead of having a teaching/sermon, they opened up the mike for anyone to come up and speak... and one by one, those high school students came down to the mike and choked out their good-byes... (truly heart-wrenching)... but who says there has to be a sermon at a funeral?
i thought it was very well done with the pictures and music and everyone getting a chance to speak... the pastor barely said anything... the family and friends were in charge...
as far as suicide and heaven is concerned, i agree with caveman... Jesus is a complete Savior!... i think the idea of not being able to go to heaven if you commit suicide comes from RC doctrine... they are into all that sacrament stuff... and i guess they think that if you don't get "the last rites", then you aren't "cleared" to go to heaven... of course, i think all of that is nonsense... Jesus said: "Those whom You gave Me I have kept, and NONE of them is lost"... certainly God is not going to require that people jump thru the hoop of confessing their sins to a man to fulfill some "last rites" sacrament before one can go to heaven... that's ludicrous!... going to heaven is NOT contingent upon ANYTHING that a person does (other than accepting the Savior) but confessing one's sins to a man falls under the category of works (as caveman has pointed out)... and we all know that we are not saved by works...
robi, i am convinced and completely assured that committing suicide does NOT prevent someone from going to heaven... probably the only thing that your sister will be able to absorb in a time like this (emotional shock, i would suspect) is you reassuring her that suicide does not prevent someone from going to heaven...
(((robi))), i will keep you and your family in prayer!
hugs,
jen-o
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Lifted Up
If suicide is a sin, what difference does it make? If I can be saved in spite of my multitude of various sins, why would God exclude Michael or Josh or jen-o's son's friend or anyone else?
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waysider
One of the most despicable things taught in TWI was that suicide is caused by devil spirit possession.
Any of life's complex problems were always reduced to some idiotically simplistic explanation.
You say you are depressed?---devil spirit.
You say you have an alcohol problem?---devil spirit.
You say have cancer?---devil spirit.
And on and on the list goes.
Yes, I have my own "suicide incident" that I have shared here. In my opinion, TWI was culpable (but this thread isn't the place to discuss it.)
People don't need teachings and scriptures and explanations at a time like this. They need to know that people care about them and about helping them cope. They need for people to help with the very real physical tasks that come with the situation such as sorting through belongings, financial obligations, and so on.
Let them grieve for as long as they need to. Sometimes that's forever. There is no magic formula that can produce all the answers.
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wing
robes,
much love to you and your family.
very sorry for your loss.
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excathedra
Dearest Robes,
I don't know what to say. I feel at a great loss to help you.
I am coming on here to tell you how sorry (words don't do it) I am for what you have gone through and for what you are going through now.
Many prayers and love. I wish I could help more.
I
If God is love, that answers all the questions.
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Robes
Oh Kimberly, my love and prayers are with you and your family for continued healing. I needed to hear from people who've gone through it, as well as from people who could teach me what I needed to know from the biblical standpoint. I'm sorry you had to go through it. I know it was very difficult for you to read, let alone post, but I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Please keep in touch and let me know of your family's continued healing as we continue to pray for them. Sweetie, one of the things I would suggest to you is to lay it out here and have our GS family help you work through it. It is what has helped me through so many crisis' (sp) in my life. I've always been able to count on coming here to get answers from people who've been through it and who can add a biblical knowledge to it all.
Waysider, I agree. I wouldn't want just scriptures being thrown at me. But I would, however, want someone to be able to speak to me in an educated manner, based on biblical scripture, about the situation.
Caveman has done an EXCELLENT job of that. Thank you very much for the scripture back up. You see, I know the general principle, but I wasn't able to logically teach it to my sister. I will now be able to, when she is ready. Right now, all she needed to know was that it was NOT true that suicide meant not going to heaven. That's exactly why I posted here, and I thank you.
We all have learned from coming here that we tend to grieve in different ways, at different speeds. I will keep gently reminding my family of that if it should become a problem. Waysider, your reminder of the different grieving was timely. Thank you. As was your mention of how TWI simplified everything down to a devil spirit. That is something I would certainly NOT want to hit my sister in the face with...."Oh, your son committed suicide because HE WAS POSSESSED BY THE DEVIL!" How hateful it was for them to teach us that...and how especially hateful it was for them to not ever allow us to grieve when we had losses. A period of grieving is so very necessary when there is a loss, no matter how small or large! I was thinking just exactly what you wrote about the devil spirits.
Jen-o, now I remember your telling us about your son's friend. I know I've seen several discussions of suicide here and I appreciate the reminders. Thank you for your prayers.
Lifted, thank you for giving me the location of one of those discussions of suicide in PM. I will definitely go there and read about it to see what I can learn.
Jim, thank you for your message. I can only hope and pray that you never have to go through a dark period again. It boils down to people reaching out for help when they are down, I think.
Many times I hear people have gotten counseling or tried a medication for depression only to quickly decide that it's not helping. I can only encourage people to try many different counselors and several different types of medications before they give up on that type of 'help'. Every body is different. There is no ONE answer...but many, and some work better than others for each individual.
Thank you to all of you who have prayed. I feel like I've gotten a reprieve, a chance to gather myself, while my sister went to get her son's body. For that I am very thankful. It has allowed me to get some very good information to have on hand for when she asks questions. Our time will come in the days after his funeral service.
Michael was cremated last night and my sister is now on her way back to Georgia from Virginia with his remains. She will be here either late tonight or sometime tomorrow, if they stop and stay somewhere. She has already had one 'breakdown' where she became a little kooky about something, but I think she's entitled...she had just seen her son with a gunshot wound to his head...(God Bless her...I still don't think I could do that with my kid). Anyways, she is calmer today, and that's good. Tomorrow (Sunday) is the day we will all get together again at my mothers to mourn and figure out where we go from here. Please keep praying because that will certainly be a hard day for all.
I have heard a little more about what is in that letter...it seems it has to do with his mom and his adopted father (my sisters 2nd husband, who adopted Michael when they married when he was about 8 or so) and how badly his father treated his mom during (and after) the divorce. From what I understand, he is blaming his adopted father for causing my sister so much grief during the divorce and for splitting up the family...but I'm sure there is more. After all, that was about 8 years ago. Since then, there has been a lot of bad blood, but I'm not sure what his take on it all has been. At least this shows us that he understands his mother was not the one at fault. Whatever... oh, it seems he started writing that letter about 2 weeks ago. That's the saddest part.
Actually, guys, I am doing very well through this. Although it hurts me tremendously to see my sister and the rest of my family hurting, I cling to The Hope. It is such a comfort to me. As are you all. Thank you again for your thoughts and prayers.
love,
Robi
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kimberly
Blessings Robi,
Tomorrow will indeed be a day of sorrow. There will be many days of sorrow to follow, particularly for your sister. I will be thinking of you and your family and holding you all up in prayer. There is a national organization called Compassionate Friends. It is for families who have lost children. I am sure there are other organizations with different names. This support group has been a tremendous healing for my friend Vonda who lost her baby daughter, age 19, five months before Josh died. Her daughter was killed in a car accident.
The last words my sister and Josh spoke to each other were ugly. They had an argument about money. My sister said some things, Josh said some things. They departed ways. He died less than a week later. They never made up. To this day that is the part that grieves me the most. When my sister was told of his death the first words out of her mouth were, "Josh died mad at me." The rest of the family doesn't know if that is really so. But when he died my sister was still angry with him. Their last conversation taught the rest of us a valuable life lesson.
One day we will all be together again. Thank you Father that you have provided us with the Hope.
Blessings to you and yours.
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kimberly
Blessings Robi,
Tomorrow will indeed be a day of sorrow. There will be many days of sorrow to follow, particularly for your sister. I will be thinking of you and your family and holding you all up in prayer. There is a national organization called Compassionate Friends. It is for families who have lost children. I am sure there are other organizations with different names. This support group has been a tremendous healing for my friend Vonda who lost her baby daughter, age 19, five months before Josh died. Her daughter was killed in a car accident.
The last words my sister and Josh spoke to each other were ugly. They had an argument about money. My sister said some things, Josh said some things. They departed ways. He died less than a week later. They never made up. To this day that is the part that grieves me the most. When my sister was told of his death the first words out of her mouth were, "Josh died mad at me." The rest of the family doesn't know if that is really so. But when he died my sister was still angry with him. Their last conversation taught the rest of us a valuable life lesson.
One day we will all be together again. Thank you Father that you have provided us with the Hope.
Blessings to you and yours.
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Rocky
Indeed, we ALL grieve... we all NEED to grieve.
Your family needs a rock right now. You represent that Rock. They can see you. They can hear you. They can touch (hug) you.
Indeed, I admire your composure. I have NO doubt that you also feel the emotional pain. But I'm thankful that you will be there to speak the soft assurances, to guide and focus.
And I'm glad you know to ask for support when you need it too.
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jen-o
(((robi))),
just wanted to give you another hug first...
robi, actually one of the reasons i posted the story about my son's friend was because you had voiced some concerns over who to get to do the service and what would they "teach"... i was just trying to let you know that there were other options (other than having someone "teach")... the service for my son's friend was very beautifully done without a "teaching/sermon"... it's just a suggestion... my aunt's service was done in my father's home, and people got up to read poems and letters they had written directly to her or to share memories about her... (again, there was no "teaching").. there are a lot of ways to personalize the service to honor the person's life... anyway, it's just a suggestion...
btw, i no longer believe in twi's version of soul sleep... i now believe literally that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and that upon "death", one goes immediately to be with the Lord (without some kind of period of suspended animation)... for if we have already received the gift of eternal life, then that moment we receive it is when our eternal life starts... it is a great comfort to know that my loved ones who have passed on are currently WITH the Lord (and not in some sort of limbo)...
hugs,
jen-o
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Robes
Rocky, you have been incredibly loving and supportive in this. Thank you very much for that. I appreciate it more than you know.
Jen-o, yes, I did catch the reference to the service as being a little different from the usual, but very healing for the friends and family left behind. That is definitely a thought. I guess we will talk about what sort of service my sister wants when we gather today.
I actually did my brother's service a few years ago when he died, although I was never a great twig leader or teacher back in TWI days. I just shared the Hope of the Return with everyone. His girlfriend spoke about him as well. It was a very beautiful, loving service. My brother would have loved it because he HATED it when he went to funerals and it was so obvious that the person speaking did not know the deceased. I thought he would have liked it better for me to do it. My mother loved it and it seemed to be very comforting to those who were there.
I spoke to my sister tonight. She sounded good. She called me to make arrangements for the family dinner tomorrow afternoon! I had to laugh at that...my mother is the greatest cook ever, and I was even planning on making some things to bring, but her boyfriend wants to cook steaks for us all and she was busy organizing that and sounding, well, almost cheerful about it. Actually, she did say that she was having good moments as well as bad, but that she was hanging in ok. That was good to hear. And it was good to have her keep busy planning a meal.
I actually wasn't sure she would want the entire family gathering at my mom's tomorrow (where she is staying through this) when she will just be getting back from such an ordeal...but she said she would welcome the distraction. That was good that we got to clarify.
One thing I mentioned to her was how I always endeavored to beat the devil at his games by making something good come out of something bad. I told her that it was my hope and prayer that somehow, someway, we could all see some good come out of this horrific experience...whether it was her younger son getting the help he needed for his depression and becoming a happy boy, or whether her 2nd son would finally see that his "pouting" for the past few years and not talking to his mom was stupid in light of the big picture. Or whatever. Anyways, she got the message and agreed. Hopefully, we will see some good out of it all.
The good thing is that when I talked with her tonight, her heart was not terribly heavy...and that is an answer to prayer.
Kimberly, I'm so sorry words of anger were the last ones spoken between your sister and Josh. How awful to have to live with that. After my brother was burned, then lingered barely alive for 3 months before passing, I swore I would learn something from it. Anytime my daughter, or son, would get mad with someone in the family, I would remind them that they could be mad, but they were still family. It has kept their hearts open and softer than they might otherwise have been had it not been for the things we experienced. I will continue to pray for your family. And you, my dear.
Thank you again, to all of you. My son arrived tonight. I just tucked him in and now I will go to bed in anticipation of a busy day on Sunday. Thank you for your continued prayers. I can see they have been working in a big way!
hugs, Robi
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