Actually I don't see much at all scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account. Due to the lack of scripture to examine for truth ,I can concur that there is little truth in the story.
now you're completely irrational...
so Vietnam never happened?
the Holocaust?
WW1, and WW2
Rowanda Genocide
those who had horrible stories to tell .. experiences.. these too.. they're not true according to you cause they lack scripture?
AAAH never....... Some are too dumb to see the difference between acknowledging that which is true as such and being an apologist....... it is not one in the same.
Hey A La - some too Waybrained men just can't quite figure out what to do with a women who is not a TWI subservient little whore - poor babies - Vive la Book Bleu - snort - sorry - was just coughing into my drink.
Let me reiterate on this topic - Wierwille was a criminal - a pedophile - a rapist - a rampant abuser of all both female and male - although his penchant was to f(ck women at his leisure - then disguise it as some spiritual enlightenment. He should have been in jail along with his other fellow rapists - and those who still support him are RAPISTS, dolts, idiots, and mostly Nazi in their thinking about women.
You will not convince them - they already have their "ovens" set up in their thinking to cleanse the world of free thinking people - especially women who claim to have been sexually abused by the Nazi anti-semite female rapist abusing child of a dog - or perhaps a PIG.
Poor - Poor babies - spit....
Gee... and I thought all my posts were insightful...
sighing from the cheapseats.
So sorry... didn't mean to have 'drug' you into my unsubstantial comments.
Geeze WD - I don't recall pigeonholing you - WHICH IS YOUR OBVIOUS INTENT TO INTIMATE. Your dishonesty is most flamboyant. Sweet sweet child - go back to your delusions of what God really is - we are all most entertained here - the PM's abound...
Gee I don't remember anything about cleansing the world of free thinking women, only that scripture in a book is still none the less scripture and as such to Christians at least should be appreciated as truth if in context it is quoted, despite what the author may do in their personal life. It shouldn't change the print in the book like some magic slate to non scripture. and just because some choose to pigeonhole people into a group name when they don't even know them or what they stand for and yet seem to assume they are in denial some how because they see each thing as separate rather than assuming that one thing nullifies something else. I wonder if a GreaseSpoter sins does that make all their posts untrue as well by that logic?
Amazing... Kristin talks about her life and the abuse and deceit and manipulation that came from THE MAN OF GAWD and all WD can do is talk about a book.
A BOOK! A friggin' paperback book that is worth about $2.00. How about the value of a life? What is a soul worth?
Who cares what is written if those words are like poison?
Life is lived- not read. Truth is much more than words on a page and the fact that you cling to your precious Blue Book like it is the Holy Grail speaks to the emptiness that resides within you.
And before you come back with some semi-snappy smart-arsed, poorly written and more poorly spelled retort expounding the fundamentals of WD Logic, please consider that there is another book you're supposed to be more connected to and it states many times and in many ways that people hold more value to God than laws and logic.
BTW- an emotional response to that interview is appropriate and right. If you can't see that no amount of scripture really means a damn - not in the Bible and certainly not in any one of the collaterals.
What happened to you that you don't allow yourself to feel?
wd, what you did here is flame baiting, this thread was being used as a vent for peoples emotions after listening to a disturbing pod cast, and you've turned that venting into a flame war.
Not very brotherly on your part, to carry on like this here, given the nature of the preceeding thread, talk about using scripture as a club....
the topic of this thread is kristen skedgell's interview titled "Losing The Way Part 2"..........what is your opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi? do you agree twi was and is a destructive religious cult?.........what is your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?..........was "the doctor" a faithful "minister" for the same god you love and worship?..........was "dr." wierwille a a genuine "man of god" who spoke the truth of your god, the father of jesus christ?...........was he speaking "god's word" to kristen when she turned to him as her "minister", desperately seeking god's wisdom and deliverance for her tortured soul?
was "dr." wierwille speaking "god's truth" to her when he told her "that's a devil spirit in you"? was that genuine "revelation" by "word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits"??..............was "the doctor" speaking "scriptural truth" to kristen when he told her to take her clothes off so he could show her why her life was worth living??..............whose "side" was vic on when he spoke and ministered to her that day?.............god's?.............was he acting on "scriptural truth" and "doing the will of god" during his "ministering" to kristen that day?..............please "don't suppress your opinion"............i really would like to know which side of the view you see regarding these questions..............thanks for "call(ing) 'em as you see 'em" for us here.......................peace.
First you seem to think I swallow every thing written on the internet as truth ........I don't! Now that that is clear ,her opinion and that is what it is without factual evidence is hers to share she is free to do so. I'm free not to accept it on her word. or to accept parts or all. Actually I don't see much at all scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account. Due to the lack of scripture to examine for truth ,I can concur that there is little truth in the story. But had there been some if it indeed lined up with what scripture says then it would then in fact be truth, regardless of what actions VP may have taken. The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not. But I suppose you should know that, at least once you did...... So thats how I see em I have no comment on undocumentable stories I think I have made that pretty clear before. I can however discuss sections of the blue book as someone brought up because it contains scripture and it can be examined to be found true or not. By the way for the record I see both cases, but the ones that concur with scripture are still none the less truth, even if VP was nailing spikes in Jesus's hands as he was saying them. Actions do not negate the scripture. Judas spoke truth at times he also betrayed Jesus two different things. one does not negate the other.
We're not talking about opinions here, we're talking about events that happened. She was there; they happened to her. Are you seriously suggesting that she lied about what that monster did to her? And why? Just because some things in his Blue Book fit with Scripture? As Doojable pointed out, a great deal of what was in that book does not line up with Scripture, and even the stuff that makes a correct Biblical statement was grossly misused. The idea of "we are complete in him" is correct in and of itself, but was directly related, in the mind of VP and many of his followers, to the mindset of "we are above the law" and "it doesn't matter what we do as long as we're saved." It was exactly that kind of misuse of God's Word that allowed so many of his followers to be in denial. If you're not one of them, great. But on what basis so you suggest Kristen was lying, when so many of VP's words have been PROVEN to be lies?
First you seem to think I swallow every thing written on the internet as truth ........I don't! Now that that is clear ,her opinion and that is what it is without factual evidence is hers to share she is free to do so. I'm free not to accept it on her word. or to accept parts or all. Actually I don't see much at all scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account. Due to the lack of scripture to examine for truth ,I can concur that there is little truth in the story.
Neither do I swallow everything. There are a lot of opinions floating around, and just on this thread I could get everyone mad at me (even if they hide it with a shrug or a categorization)...including you, a certain former corps roomie, several others who make blanket statements (on that particular point I agree with you), and probably even Paw. I've done it before (gotten both sides of an issue "unhappy" at me).
I must also qualify my following remark, since I have had trouble getting this thing downloaded, and am too much on overload with various things in my life (anyone counted my number of posts last few months?) to spend too much time getting it right. I should, eventually, but for now I cant comment specifically on what I havent heard.
There is a difference, though, especially on the internet, between all these opinions flashing around and real testimony from someone who is a real person (i.e. not just an anonymous handle) and who is telling about what happened to him/her. Yes, it still requires judgment on reliability (Maybe I'll get a chance of do that for real next month on jury duty), but if someone on such a personal issue as sexual abuse is willing to talk/tell personally, not on VPW is a so and so, or TWI teachings arent worth a ----, but on simply "This is what happened to me...", and if that is what Kristen's testimony is, then I would put that ten worlds above opinion.
This was apparently one sick, twisted human being who damaged many. Sometimes I wonder how many people are still faithfully following orders even.
Oh God, this is almost too much.
Take care friends.
Dear friends,
I wish that the computers at my new internet access site could run smoothly when they run this type of interview, I cannot listen to songs now either. But I would like to expound on my earlier comments if you all don't mind.
How can I not be sad when I hear your responses to a sharing that obviously has some nasty business to reveal. I only hope that Kristen is doing well.
Many of you here at the greasespot have shared similar experiences and I don't have any reason to doubt them anymore.
Kristen, Raplh D., Excathedra, Rascal, are a few of the TWI victims here who I count myself blessed to hear from on this site. Doubtlessly there are many others I've heard from too, it's just that these are at the top of my head right now so to speak.
Not long after I got here I heard from Excathedra and Rascal and believed them and their stories regarding TWI abuse that they suffered. For me that was just the start and I see many, many things completely differently than I do now. Along with believing Excathedra and Rascal, I got into a very aggressive conversation with White Dive and a couple of others after which I was warned by the moderators to quit personally attacking them or I'd be suspended. Since then I've behaved myself.
Right now the problem that I have with White Dove's post (in part) is that he thinks that this fellowship we have and the things that we share are not true apparently. He's stated that it's o.k. to hold on to bluebook doctrine, but he doesn't seem to think twice about deliberatly following a line of reasoning that is off-topic instead of doing the decent thing and starting another thread that would deal with the issues with which hre's concerned.
IMO this type of behavior never was just TWI's leadership behavior, but has been the standard behavior for religious bigots for centuries. I believe it is trained behavior first taught by this twisted individual, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille as it relates to TWI.
What I mean by Religious bigots is that some people think it's O.K. that they step all over people's hearts and lives in order to make their all-important (to them anyway) points.
(This paragraph will be all sarcasm)
After all, what the heck, it's just a broken hearted, battered, bruised individual that they are tromping all over. Everybody knows that God doesn't care for them, after all , those poor sappy victims only had it happen to THEM because THEY ARE AT FAULT. Besides, the KING OF THE SCUMBAGS that taught me the bible even managed to quote scriptures correctly while he bided his time in between young ladies who he wanted to f-ck. So please don't forget you poor saps that my king of the scumbags also managed to quote bible verses.
PHAH!!
White Dove,
I am suggesting to everybody that they learn to SEE this in your posts so that they never,ever, ever go that way themselves. Because in my opinion, your posts are indecent and unbiblical and OFF-TOPIC.
As far as truth goes, IMO you seriously need to consider these things that TWI victims say as being true along with what the king of the scumbags taught you.
P.S.
White Dove,
For integrity, guts, truth, courage, etc., I'd pick Rascal and Excathedra absolutely any day over you, ANY FRIGGIN DAY. And I don't even know their names, but I don't CARE what yours is.
whitedove.............thank you for your post #82 last night, which, i think, was in reply to my post #79, which i addressed to you............i apologize for not responding last night, but i got caught up in the the celebration of the boston celtics' winning the NBA championship..........my adult children all live in the boston metro area, and grew up there, and all played high school varsity basketball there...........all three of them were outside the boston garden last night, where they watched the game, and were a part of the post-game celebration, which they shared with me via their cellphones and cameraphones............until well after 1am!!.........it was great fun for us, but it wound up "pre-empting" my reply to you until i returned home from work this evening.
i began post #79 with a quote from your post #66, which was a reply to post #64, addressed to you by excathedra.............i quoted your post #66 in an effort to encourage us all to get back to the topic of this thread, which i stated as being "kristen skedgell's interview titled 'Losing The Way Part 2' ", and also in a genuine effort to solicit from you your "opinions" and "views" regarding several specific points kristen brought up during this interview.................i was hoping to demonstrate the fact that, i, for one, in no way want "to suppress someone's opinion and have a one sided view." regarding the topic of this thread, or any thread here at the greasespot cafe!.............my questions to you were not meant to be argumentative or pugnacious, and certainly were not designed as a cleverly disguised personal "attack", nor an "attack" of any kind!...........for the sake of clarity and continuity, allow me to "re-post" them here.
"what is your opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi? do you agree twi was and is a destructive religious cult?.........what is your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?..........was "the doctor" a faithful "minister" for the same god you love and worship?..........was "dr." wierwille a genuine "man of god" who spoke the truth of your god, the father of jesus christ?...........was he speaking "god's word" to kristen when she turned to him as her "minister", desperately seeking god's wisdom and deliverance for her tortured soul? "
"was "dr." wierwille speaking "god's truth" to her when he told her "that's a devil spirit in you"? was that genuine "revelation" by "word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits"??..............was "the doctor" speaking "scriptural truth" to kristen when he told her to take her clothes off so he could show her why her life was worth living??..............whose "side" was vic on when he spoke and ministered to her that day?.............god's?.............was he acting on "scriptural truth" and "doing the will of god" during his "ministering" to kristen that day?..............please "don't suppress your opinion"............i really would like to know which side of the view you see regarding these questions..............thanks for "call(ing) 'em as you see 'em" for us here.......................peace."
for some reason, you chose to not answer any of the questions i asked you concerning your opinion and/or view regarding the points kristen brought up in the specific parts of her interview as "re-posted" above..............WHY? instead, you began your non-answer reply with, "First off the topic I responded to was Groucho's blanket judgement of denial regarding supposed wierwille apologists Just so we are clear let me refresh your memory....."...........WHY?...........i never asked about whatever your "first off the topic" response was, nor did i mention groucho or any other poster on this thread!............i did not say anything about "supposed wierwille apologists", nor did i accuse you of being one, or in any way imply the same!.............i did not ask to have my memory refreshed regarding any of groucho's posts on this thread, and i do not understand how you drew such inferences from anything i stated in post #79.
you then began the "main body" of your non-answer reply with yet another inference which seems to bear no reference to anything i stated in post #79............."First you seem to think I swallow every thing written on the internet as truth ........I don't!".............i do???............what do you base that statement on?............you set up a straw man, based on nothing i posted on this thread, and then you proceed to tear down your own logical fallacy by arguing with yourself!..........still no answer to any of my questions!..........WHY?
then, you set up yet another straw man to invent yet another context for an argument with yourself that, again, has absolutely nothing to do with anything i stated in post #79, nor with any of the questions i posed to you in the same post!..........."her opinion and that is what it is without factual evidence is hers to share she is free to do so. I'm free not to accept it on her word. or to accept parts or all. Actually I don't see much at all scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account. Due to the lack of scripture to examine for truth ,I can concur that there is little truth in the story. But had there been some if it indeed lined up with what scripture says then it would then in fact be truth, regardless of what actions VP may have taken. The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not."
i do not know to what extent, if any, you have studied the legal system in this country, or any legal system in any country, but your categorization of kristen's book as being "her opinion" and only her "opinion", because in your opinion, she offers "no factual evidence" to back-up her recounting of her personal, firsthand experiences with vic and his "ministry", is at best, misinformed, and, more accurately, completely erroneous and false..............her entire account of her personal experience of sexual abuse at vic's hands, would be considered, in a court of law in this country, as exactly what you say it is'nt.......FACTUAL EVIDENCE, which would be presented, under oath, as testimony and evidence in support of her allegations against vic, if indeed this would ever have gone to trial.............and it would be subject to cross examination as SWORN TESTIMONY, NOT "OPINION"!! opinion, other than that of a certified expert witness, is disallowed during trial, since it would be ruled as hearsay, and not evidence!
i had lots of downtime at work today............i work in the healthcare delivery system at a large university medical center, and there are very strict and specific federal and state laws and regulations which we are responsible to uphold and execute whenever we SUSPECT cases of physical or sexual abuse among our patient population..........as licensed professionals, we are subject to revocation of our licenses if we fail to report suspected cases of physical or sexual abuse we may encounter in our daily practice!...........i took the time today to speak with a total of 22 different licensed professionals about the specific parts of kristen's book i asked you your "opinion" or "view" of in post #79............this included physicians, registered nurses and nurse practitioners, risk management manager, HIPPA compliance officers, social workers, and our facility's general counsel...........EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL i "interviewed" today, told me in no uncertain terms, that if kristen presented as a patient/client in any one of our areas of practice at the hospital, and stated what she states in the sections of her book i referred to in my post to you, whitedove,.............and we referred to it or documented it as merely her "opinion", WE would most definitely be guilty of criminal negligence, subject to immediate suspension of our licenses, pending criminal investigation!...........NO MORE LICENSE=NO MORE JOB!!!.............i would suggest that you do not seek employment in the healthcare system in this country, whitedove!......or the legal system for that matter!
i never asked you if there was any "scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account"............whatever that means............i asked you for your "opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi?"................i asked for "your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?.".............instead, you gave me, "The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not. But I suppose you should know that, at least once you did" ....have we met??...........if so, when's the last time we spoke with each other? how is it that you presume to speak for me?? with whom do you "concur that there is little truth" in kristen's story??............me???...........kristen?................apparently, you must "concur" with yourself here, unless you meant to use a different word?
you concluded you non-answer reply to my post #79 with, "So thats how I see em I have no comment on undocumentable stories I think I have made that pretty clear before. I can however discuss sections of the blue book as someone brought up because it contains scripture and it can be examined to be found true or not. By the way for the record I see both cases, but the ones that concur with scripture are still none the less truth, even if VP was nailing spikes in Jesus's hands as he was saying them. Actions do not negate the scripture. Judas spoke truth at times he also betrayed Jesus two different things. one does not negate the other." again, whitedove, my questions to you never were for you to "comment on undocumentable stories"!.........i re-posted them above to clarify for you again, what i thought were very clear questions, referring to clearly specified sections of kristen's interview, which is the topic of this thread, and which i hoped would demonstrate that i in no way wish to be a part of "suppressing someone's opinions" on this or any other thread............i never mentioned "the blue book", nor did i ask you to discuss any sections of it......
finally, let me state that, if "god's minister", or god's "spokesperson" who purports to teach or speak "scriptural truth" behaves in a manner contradictory to said "scriptural truth", then those actions do indeed negate scriptural truth as spoken by that man, imho!......the proper scriptural term for this, as used by jesus christ himself is "YE HYPOCRITES!"............your persistence in trying to back up your semantical hair-splitting with "scriptural truth" makes sense to very few here.........it's all based on your opinion, not scriptural fact or truth!.......it is reminiscent of another master hypocrite who tried to parse his lies into truth by explaining to the rest of us poor souls that his argument was indeed factual and true, but it was all dependent upon our understanding of "what the meaning of "is" is"!!!.............my questions are still there for you to answer, if you choose.........it's totally up to you.................i still would really like to hear your opinions, so we can all contribute to avoiding having "a one-sided view" of the topic of this thread.............thanks!......i look forward to your reply!...............................peace.
Of course it is only because you want us to accept that because one does not like a humans actions that somehow changes the truthful scripture they share into no truth. They are two different things.
Scripture is either true or not based on the Bible not human flaws, if true then it is always so no matter the speaker. Now ones belief of the speaker based on their actions may vary, but what they speak is not character based.
VP Wierwille couldn't have spoken it any better (actually, he could have)...
...The problem here is that YOU begin with a premise for truth (the bible) and argue from that perspective...good for you...not everyone here agrees with your real/imagined perception of what truth is...
Your like the guy standing on the street corner holding pamphlets, shouting "Jesus saves"...he is beyond reason and will not/ cannot discuss reality in a logical manner because he has closed his mind to a certain religious dogma...but there are others here who think differently than you. The difference between you and them is that you are intolerant (as religion always is) of opinions that do not agree with your "standard for truth" (your idea of what the bible actually says)...
...The argument over the validity or nonvalidity of the scriptures is a DIVERSION from the point of this thread and of the henious crimes of Victor the slug Wierwille...it's a DISTRACTION from the understanding of what certain people were subjected to and a DISTRACTION from what is being "digested" here by many people who want to know what really happened.
So Vic Wierwille taught you some bible (mostly wrong)...I'm sure that Joesph Stalin was kind to his mother too...big deal.
Whitedove...You are a reminder to me of the horrors that I left behind when a cult screwed with my head...I honestly hope that you will change in time.
BTW- an emotional response to that interview is appropriate and right. If you can't see that no amount of scripture really means a damn - not in the Bible and certainly not in any one of the collaterals.
What happened to you that you don't allow yourself to feel?
What happened to you that you are controlled by your emotions where they dictate truth?
Who made you the definer of truth? You wouldn't know truth if it sat down beside you and offered to buy drinks for everyone.
BTW - the whole "Your emotions... blah blah blah" line is a bunch of BS. You don't know me. If you did you wouldn't even attempt that line on me. It's just a red herring you use to deflect your own vile addiction to the victoid's religion. Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with God. This has everything to do with you finding something - anything - to justify your actions and beliefs (Gawd forbid you're wrong... *shudder*)
Let me get this straight...
Someone can see something, feel something, experience something - all FIRST HAND - but you don't accept it as truth?
Because it wasn't documented?
Because it wasn't in the Bible?
Because YOU say it didn't happen???
Yet - any court of law would accept an eyewitness account over hearsay any day.
Maybe you've become a legend in your own mind - but you haven't fooled most of us.
We're not talking about opinions here, we're talking about events that happened. She was there; they happened to her. Are you seriously suggesting that she lied about what that monster did to her? And why? Just because some things in his Blue Book fit with Scripture? As Doojable pointed out, a great deal of what was in that book does not line up with Scripture, and even the stuff that makes a correct Biblical statement was grossly misused. The idea of "we are complete in him" is correct in and of itself, but was directly related, in the mind of VP and many of his followers, to the mindset of "we are above the law" and "it doesn't matter what we do as long as we're saved." It was exactly that kind of misuse of God's Word that allowed so many of his followers to be in denial. If you're not one of them, great. But on what basis so you suggest Kristen was lying, when so many of VP's words have been PROVEN to be lies?
You need to go back and read what I did and did not say you are confused.....
I did and I quoted it in my post which you included in your post. You also said the same thing in a later post. If I am confused, then what is it you are saying? Did you not state several times that you didn't believe Kristen's account to be truthful? Let's forget the crap about the blue book and all the other diversions and get back to the point of the thread. Don'tWorryBeHappy asked you more than once for your opinion of Kristen's account and the interview. The only thing you have said about it is that you think it was not true. If that is not what you meant to say then please clarify. And if it is what you said, please explain why you believe it to be false.
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rascal
((((((excathedra)))))) never invisible, , however I feel that I way as well. Never underestimate the impact your own personal testimoney has had on others. For many of us it was the first inkling we
excathedra
thank you so much billy
A la prochaine
now you're completely irrational...
so Vietnam never happened?
the Holocaust?
WW1, and WW2
Rowanda Genocide
those who had horrible stories to tell .. experiences.. these too.. they're not true according to you cause they lack scripture?
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A la prochaine
maybe you're existence isn't real cause there's no scripture to substantiate it?
Or..maybe even better... i don't exist... perhaps i'm just a figment of your imagination? :blink:
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doojable
BTW - why are you so uptight about Groucho referring to Wierwille apologists if that shoe doesn't fit you?
How many times have you painted yourself in this corner?
You really should learn where the door is...
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doojable
So you didn't comment on Kristin's story but you saw a blurb about the Blue Book and you just had to set the record straight?
All this because a comment was made about the victoid's apologists - oh but I forgot - you're not one of them. <_<
Oh yea - there's no scripture supporting any of that...
I'm dropping this now - arguing with you on this point is like trying to teach my cat calculus.
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waysider
Ummm, actually it is.
Does the word credibility ring a bell?
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doojable
I think I'll just let that comment sit awhile.
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A la prochaine
Man... you must have gotten all "A's" in the VP and LCM classes.
Bravo!
BTW... what emotions do you speak of?
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Shellon
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A la prochaine
Gee... and I thought all my posts were insightful...
sighing from the cheapseats.
So sorry... didn't mean to have 'drug' you into my unsubstantial comments.
Please forgive.
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RumRunner
Hey A La - some too Waybrained men just can't quite figure out what to do with a women who is not a TWI subservient little whore - poor babies - Vive la Book Bleu - snort - sorry - was just coughing into my drink.
Let me reiterate on this topic - Wierwille was a criminal - a pedophile - a rapist - a rampant abuser of all both female and male - although his penchant was to f(ck women at his leisure - then disguise it as some spiritual enlightenment. He should have been in jail along with his other fellow rapists - and those who still support him are RAPISTS, dolts, idiots, and mostly Nazi in their thinking about women.
You will not convince them - they already have their "ovens" set up in their thinking to cleanse the world of free thinking people - especially women who claim to have been sexually abused by the Nazi anti-semite female rapist abusing child of a dog - or perhaps a PIG.
Poor - Poor babies - spit....
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RumRunner
Geeze WD - I don't recall pigeonholing you - WHICH IS YOUR OBVIOUS INTENT TO INTIMATE. Your dishonesty is most flamboyant. Sweet sweet child - go back to your delusions of what God really is - we are all most entertained here - the PM's abound...
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doojable
Amazing... Kristin talks about her life and the abuse and deceit and manipulation that came from THE MAN OF GAWD and all WD can do is talk about a book.
A BOOK! A friggin' paperback book that is worth about $2.00. How about the value of a life? What is a soul worth?
Who cares what is written if those words are like poison?
Life is lived- not read. Truth is much more than words on a page and the fact that you cling to your precious Blue Book like it is the Holy Grail speaks to the emptiness that resides within you.
And before you come back with some semi-snappy smart-arsed, poorly written and more poorly spelled retort expounding the fundamentals of WD Logic, please consider that there is another book you're supposed to be more connected to and it states many times and in many ways that people hold more value to God than laws and logic.
BTW- an emotional response to that interview is appropriate and right. If you can't see that no amount of scripture really means a damn - not in the Bible and certainly not in any one of the collaterals.
What happened to you that you don't allow yourself to feel?
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now I see
wd, what you did here is flame baiting, this thread was being used as a vent for peoples emotions after listening to a disturbing pod cast, and you've turned that venting into a flame war.
Not very brotherly on your part, to carry on like this here, given the nature of the preceeding thread, talk about using scripture as a club....
I believe you knew what you were doing...
From dictionary.die.net:
flame baiting:
A Usenet posting or other message intended to
trigger a flame war, or one that invites flames in reply.
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Mark Clarke
We're not talking about opinions here, we're talking about events that happened. She was there; they happened to her. Are you seriously suggesting that she lied about what that monster did to her? And why? Just because some things in his Blue Book fit with Scripture? As Doojable pointed out, a great deal of what was in that book does not line up with Scripture, and even the stuff that makes a correct Biblical statement was grossly misused. The idea of "we are complete in him" is correct in and of itself, but was directly related, in the mind of VP and many of his followers, to the mindset of "we are above the law" and "it doesn't matter what we do as long as we're saved." It was exactly that kind of misuse of God's Word that allowed so many of his followers to be in denial. If you're not one of them, great. But on what basis so you suggest Kristen was lying, when so many of VP's words have been PROVEN to be lies?
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waysider
People suffered immensely at the hands of one VP Wierwille.
(I thought it would be apropos to "bind" that in blue.)
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Lifted Up
Neither do I swallow everything. There are a lot of opinions floating around, and just on this thread I could get everyone mad at me (even if they hide it with a shrug or a categorization)...including you, a certain former corps roomie, several others who make blanket statements (on that particular point I agree with you), and probably even Paw. I've done it before (gotten both sides of an issue "unhappy" at me).
I must also qualify my following remark, since I have had trouble getting this thing downloaded, and am too much on overload with various things in my life (anyone counted my number of posts last few months?) to spend too much time getting it right. I should, eventually, but for now I cant comment specifically on what I havent heard.
There is a difference, though, especially on the internet, between all these opinions flashing around and real testimony from someone who is a real person (i.e. not just an anonymous handle) and who is telling about what happened to him/her. Yes, it still requires judgment on reliability (Maybe I'll get a chance of do that for real next month on jury duty), but if someone on such a personal issue as sexual abuse is willing to talk/tell personally, not on VPW is a so and so, or TWI teachings arent worth a ----, but on simply "This is what happened to me...", and if that is what Kristen's testimony is, then I would put that ten worlds above opinion.
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JeffSjo
Dear friends,
I wish that the computers at my new internet access site could run smoothly when they run this type of interview, I cannot listen to songs now either. But I would like to expound on my earlier comments if you all don't mind.
How can I not be sad when I hear your responses to a sharing that obviously has some nasty business to reveal. I only hope that Kristen is doing well.
Many of you here at the greasespot have shared similar experiences and I don't have any reason to doubt them anymore.
Kristen, Raplh D., Excathedra, Rascal, are a few of the TWI victims here who I count myself blessed to hear from on this site. Doubtlessly there are many others I've heard from too, it's just that these are at the top of my head right now so to speak.
Not long after I got here I heard from Excathedra and Rascal and believed them and their stories regarding TWI abuse that they suffered. For me that was just the start and I see many, many things completely differently than I do now. Along with believing Excathedra and Rascal, I got into a very aggressive conversation with White Dive and a couple of others after which I was warned by the moderators to quit personally attacking them or I'd be suspended. Since then I've behaved myself.
Right now the problem that I have with White Dove's post (in part) is that he thinks that this fellowship we have and the things that we share are not true apparently. He's stated that it's o.k. to hold on to bluebook doctrine, but he doesn't seem to think twice about deliberatly following a line of reasoning that is off-topic instead of doing the decent thing and starting another thread that would deal with the issues with which hre's concerned.
IMO this type of behavior never was just TWI's leadership behavior, but has been the standard behavior for religious bigots for centuries. I believe it is trained behavior first taught by this twisted individual, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille as it relates to TWI.
What I mean by Religious bigots is that some people think it's O.K. that they step all over people's hearts and lives in order to make their all-important (to them anyway) points.
(This paragraph will be all sarcasm)
After all, what the heck, it's just a broken hearted, battered, bruised individual that they are tromping all over. Everybody knows that God doesn't care for them, after all , those poor sappy victims only had it happen to THEM because THEY ARE AT FAULT. Besides, the KING OF THE SCUMBAGS that taught me the bible even managed to quote scriptures correctly while he bided his time in between young ladies who he wanted to f-ck. So please don't forget you poor saps that my king of the scumbags also managed to quote bible verses.
PHAH!!
White Dove,
I am suggesting to everybody that they learn to SEE this in your posts so that they never,ever, ever go that way themselves. Because in my opinion, your posts are indecent and unbiblical and OFF-TOPIC.
As far as truth goes, IMO you seriously need to consider these things that TWI victims say as being true along with what the king of the scumbags taught you.
P.S.
White Dove,
For integrity, guts, truth, courage, etc., I'd pick Rascal and Excathedra absolutely any day over you, ANY FRIGGIN DAY. And I don't even know their names, but I don't CARE what yours is.
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alfakat
oh, you guys don't get it at ALL
dovey is valiant for the TRUTH, doncha know...
and all the stupid frickin people be damned, right, dovey????
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DontWorryBeHappy
whitedove.............thank you for your post #82 last night, which, i think, was in reply to my post #79, which i addressed to you............i apologize for not responding last night, but i got caught up in the the celebration of the boston celtics' winning the NBA championship..........my adult children all live in the boston metro area, and grew up there, and all played high school varsity basketball there...........all three of them were outside the boston garden last night, where they watched the game, and were a part of the post-game celebration, which they shared with me via their cellphones and cameraphones............until well after 1am!!.........it was great fun for us, but it wound up "pre-empting" my reply to you until i returned home from work this evening.
i began post #79 with a quote from your post #66, which was a reply to post #64, addressed to you by excathedra.............i quoted your post #66 in an effort to encourage us all to get back to the topic of this thread, which i stated as being "kristen skedgell's interview titled 'Losing The Way Part 2' ", and also in a genuine effort to solicit from you your "opinions" and "views" regarding several specific points kristen brought up during this interview.................i was hoping to demonstrate the fact that, i, for one, in no way want "to suppress someone's opinion and have a one sided view." regarding the topic of this thread, or any thread here at the greasespot cafe!.............my questions to you were not meant to be argumentative or pugnacious, and certainly were not designed as a cleverly disguised personal "attack", nor an "attack" of any kind!...........for the sake of clarity and continuity, allow me to "re-post" them here.
"what is your opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi? do you agree twi was and is a destructive religious cult?.........what is your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?..........was "the doctor" a faithful "minister" for the same god you love and worship?..........was "dr." wierwille a genuine "man of god" who spoke the truth of your god, the father of jesus christ?...........was he speaking "god's word" to kristen when she turned to him as her "minister", desperately seeking god's wisdom and deliverance for her tortured soul? "
"was "dr." wierwille speaking "god's truth" to her when he told her "that's a devil spirit in you"? was that genuine "revelation" by "word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits"??..............was "the doctor" speaking "scriptural truth" to kristen when he told her to take her clothes off so he could show her why her life was worth living??..............whose "side" was vic on when he spoke and ministered to her that day?.............god's?.............was he acting on "scriptural truth" and "doing the will of god" during his "ministering" to kristen that day?..............please "don't suppress your opinion"............i really would like to know which side of the view you see regarding these questions..............thanks for "call(ing) 'em as you see 'em" for us here.......................peace."
for some reason, you chose to not answer any of the questions i asked you concerning your opinion and/or view regarding the points kristen brought up in the specific parts of her interview as "re-posted" above..............WHY? instead, you began your non-answer reply with, "First off the topic I responded to was Groucho's blanket judgement of denial regarding supposed wierwille apologists Just so we are clear let me refresh your memory....."...........WHY?...........i never asked about whatever your "first off the topic" response was, nor did i mention groucho or any other poster on this thread!............i did not say anything about "supposed wierwille apologists", nor did i accuse you of being one, or in any way imply the same!.............i did not ask to have my memory refreshed regarding any of groucho's posts on this thread, and i do not understand how you drew such inferences from anything i stated in post #79.
you then began the "main body" of your non-answer reply with yet another inference which seems to bear no reference to anything i stated in post #79............."First you seem to think I swallow every thing written on the internet as truth ........I don't!".............i do???............what do you base that statement on?............you set up a straw man, based on nothing i posted on this thread, and then you proceed to tear down your own logical fallacy by arguing with yourself!..........still no answer to any of my questions!..........WHY?
then, you set up yet another straw man to invent yet another context for an argument with yourself that, again, has absolutely nothing to do with anything i stated in post #79, nor with any of the questions i posed to you in the same post!..........."her opinion and that is what it is without factual evidence is hers to share she is free to do so. I'm free not to accept it on her word. or to accept parts or all. Actually I don't see much at all scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account. Due to the lack of scripture to examine for truth ,I can concur that there is little truth in the story. But had there been some if it indeed lined up with what scripture says then it would then in fact be truth, regardless of what actions VP may have taken. The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not."
i do not know to what extent, if any, you have studied the legal system in this country, or any legal system in any country, but your categorization of kristen's book as being "her opinion" and only her "opinion", because in your opinion, she offers "no factual evidence" to back-up her recounting of her personal, firsthand experiences with vic and his "ministry", is at best, misinformed, and, more accurately, completely erroneous and false..............her entire account of her personal experience of sexual abuse at vic's hands, would be considered, in a court of law in this country, as exactly what you say it is'nt.......FACTUAL EVIDENCE, which would be presented, under oath, as testimony and evidence in support of her allegations against vic, if indeed this would ever have gone to trial.............and it would be subject to cross examination as SWORN TESTIMONY, NOT "OPINION"!! opinion, other than that of a certified expert witness, is disallowed during trial, since it would be ruled as hearsay, and not evidence!
i had lots of downtime at work today............i work in the healthcare delivery system at a large university medical center, and there are very strict and specific federal and state laws and regulations which we are responsible to uphold and execute whenever we SUSPECT cases of physical or sexual abuse among our patient population..........as licensed professionals, we are subject to revocation of our licenses if we fail to report suspected cases of physical or sexual abuse we may encounter in our daily practice!...........i took the time today to speak with a total of 22 different licensed professionals about the specific parts of kristen's book i asked you your "opinion" or "view" of in post #79............this included physicians, registered nurses and nurse practitioners, risk management manager, HIPPA compliance officers, social workers, and our facility's general counsel...........EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL i "interviewed" today, told me in no uncertain terms, that if kristen presented as a patient/client in any one of our areas of practice at the hospital, and stated what she states in the sections of her book i referred to in my post to you, whitedove,.............and we referred to it or documented it as merely her "opinion", WE would most definitely be guilty of criminal negligence, subject to immediate suspension of our licenses, pending criminal investigation!...........NO MORE LICENSE=NO MORE JOB!!!.............i would suggest that you do not seek employment in the healthcare system in this country, whitedove!......or the legal system for that matter!
i never asked you if there was any "scriptural truth to examine for truth in her account"............whatever that means............i asked you for your "opinion of what ms. skedgell has to say regarding twi?"................i asked for "your "view" of the section of her book which she reads at the end of the interview?.".............instead, you gave me, "The Bible does not depend on man's moral rightousness for defining if it is truth or not. But I suppose you should know that, at least once you did" ....have we met??...........if so, when's the last time we spoke with each other? how is it that you presume to speak for me?? with whom do you "concur that there is little truth" in kristen's story??............me???...........kristen?................apparently, you must "concur" with yourself here, unless you meant to use a different word?
you concluded you non-answer reply to my post #79 with, "So thats how I see em I have no comment on undocumentable stories I think I have made that pretty clear before. I can however discuss sections of the blue book as someone brought up because it contains scripture and it can be examined to be found true or not. By the way for the record I see both cases, but the ones that concur with scripture are still none the less truth, even if VP was nailing spikes in Jesus's hands as he was saying them. Actions do not negate the scripture. Judas spoke truth at times he also betrayed Jesus two different things. one does not negate the other." again, whitedove, my questions to you never were for you to "comment on undocumentable stories"!.........i re-posted them above to clarify for you again, what i thought were very clear questions, referring to clearly specified sections of kristen's interview, which is the topic of this thread, and which i hoped would demonstrate that i in no way wish to be a part of "suppressing someone's opinions" on this or any other thread............i never mentioned "the blue book", nor did i ask you to discuss any sections of it......
finally, let me state that, if "god's minister", or god's "spokesperson" who purports to teach or speak "scriptural truth" behaves in a manner contradictory to said "scriptural truth", then those actions do indeed negate scriptural truth as spoken by that man, imho!......the proper scriptural term for this, as used by jesus christ himself is "YE HYPOCRITES!"............your persistence in trying to back up your semantical hair-splitting with "scriptural truth" makes sense to very few here.........it's all based on your opinion, not scriptural fact or truth!.......it is reminiscent of another master hypocrite who tried to parse his lies into truth by explaining to the rest of us poor souls that his argument was indeed factual and true, but it was all dependent upon our understanding of "what the meaning of "is" is"!!!.............my questions are still there for you to answer, if you choose.........it's totally up to you.................i still would really like to hear your opinions, so we can all contribute to avoiding having "a one-sided view" of the topic of this thread.............thanks!......i look forward to your reply!...............................peace.
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GrouchoMarxJr
VP Wierwille couldn't have spoken it any better (actually, he could have)...
...The problem here is that YOU begin with a premise for truth (the bible) and argue from that perspective...good for you...not everyone here agrees with your real/imagined perception of what truth is...
Your like the guy standing on the street corner holding pamphlets, shouting "Jesus saves"...he is beyond reason and will not/ cannot discuss reality in a logical manner because he has closed his mind to a certain religious dogma...but there are others here who think differently than you. The difference between you and them is that you are intolerant (as religion always is) of opinions that do not agree with your "standard for truth" (your idea of what the bible actually says)...
...The argument over the validity or nonvalidity of the scriptures is a DIVERSION from the point of this thread and of the henious crimes of Victor the slug Wierwille...it's a DISTRACTION from the understanding of what certain people were subjected to and a DISTRACTION from what is being "digested" here by many people who want to know what really happened.
So Vic Wierwille taught you some bible (mostly wrong)...I'm sure that Joesph Stalin was kind to his mother too...big deal.
Whitedove...You are a reminder to me of the horrors that I left behind when a cult screwed with my head...I honestly hope that you will change in time.
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doojable
You have a staggering capacity for denial WD.
You're logic is illogical. Your use of scripture is scripturally inept. Your standard for truth is a lie.
Maybe the Bible isn't telling you so afterall...
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Shellon
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doojable
Who made you the definer of truth? You wouldn't know truth if it sat down beside you and offered to buy drinks for everyone.
BTW - the whole "Your emotions... blah blah blah" line is a bunch of BS. You don't know me. If you did you wouldn't even attempt that line on me. It's just a red herring you use to deflect your own vile addiction to the victoid's religion. Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with God. This has everything to do with you finding something - anything - to justify your actions and beliefs (Gawd forbid you're wrong... *shudder*)
Let me get this straight...
Someone can see something, feel something, experience something - all FIRST HAND - but you don't accept it as truth?
Because it wasn't documented?
Because it wasn't in the Bible?
Because YOU say it didn't happen???
Yet - any court of law would accept an eyewitness account over hearsay any day.
Maybe you've become a legend in your own mind - but you haven't fooled most of us.
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Mark Clarke
I did and I quoted it in my post which you included in your post. You also said the same thing in a later post. If I am confused, then what is it you are saying? Did you not state several times that you didn't believe Kristen's account to be truthful? Let's forget the crap about the blue book and all the other diversions and get back to the point of the thread. Don'tWorryBeHappy asked you more than once for your opinion of Kristen's account and the interview. The only thing you have said about it is that you think it was not true. If that is not what you meant to say then please clarify. And if it is what you said, please explain why you believe it to be false.
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