Whether or not you think that speaking in tongues in general is real, do you think that speaking in tongues in TWI was real?
I don't think you can lump it all together... I think that God works with individuals and not groups...I think some were real and some were not...
but...I'm a Christian...not everyone here is...I imagine that for them, it was all phoney.
If/when people DID genuinely speak in tongues...it was in SPITE of twi...and by the way, I think Wierwille's "tongues" was as fake as a three dollar bill..."Lo shanta kalimasita"...gime a break.
I think there are really two different questions represented here.
1. Do you think there is validity to the Biblical accounts of speaking in tongues?
2. Do you think VPW was accurate in his analysis of its meaning and its application to modern times?
(Though I realize he did not reach those conclusions through his own doing.)
(1.)Personally, I think there is some validity to the Biblical accounts, though I'm not sure of the depth of the significance.
(2.) I'm inclined to believe that the speakers were aware of the meaning of their words and the burden of understanding fell on the recipients who did not normally understand the languages spoken. Sort of a reversal of what we have always assumed. In other words, I speak something in English, my native "tongue", yet someone who only understands French understands what I am saying. I guess, perhaps, the key would be in understanding who is being referred to when it talks about "their" native tongue, the speaker or the hearer?
Either way, I personally never heard an example of either version.
Wierwille's was probably the phoniest I ever heard.
If you listen to his "schpiel" in PLAF(The Miracle Class), you can hear him trying to justify the phoniness of his own tongue,
I know someone who totally faked the whole thing straight through the Intermediate Class and then on into twig fellowship.
Where was the "revelation" to alert the leaders of the deception?
And yet, I believe I received something I would now consider to be divine revelation without a shadow of a doubt.
(Once and only once as far as the certainty)
edited to note: If it wasn't revelation, there is something out there that is way too big and powerful for me to chance pizzing off.
well... i don't know about speaking in tongues "in" twi... or as a result of twi, i should say...
i spoke in tongues BEFORE i took pfal...
and i always thought my tongue sounded russian or polish or something like that...
however, in later years, i have run across people who were speaking a language that sounded similar to my tongue... and so i asked them if they could understand what i was saying...
i asked:
a romanian guy who goes to car auctions....
2 turkish women in the dollar store...
and a yugoslavian lady in a cafe...
ALL of them recognized it as a bonafide language, and looked at me like i was nuts when i questioned whether it was a "real" language... they insisted it was and that it sounded like hungarian or czechoslovakian or some such similar dialect...
so if anyone out there speaks hungarian or czechoslovakian, PM me!
W's family are from another country and their native language is not English.
W's mother is/was a Pentecostal believer. W's father did not believe.
W's father became seriously ill. Appropriate treatment was not available.
W's mother had told W's father on many occasions he could be healed (by God). The father denied this, did not believe.
One day, W's mother went to church, came home, same routine. Father by this time getting very ill. He walked off.
W's mother called to him in English, a language she did not know but he did, telling him he could be healed if only he would trust God. Father snapped round, demanded a repeat, got it, so astonished that he instantly changed his mind, accepted that healing was available. W's mother had no idea what she had said.
W's father is (I think) still alive today.
W told me this. I consider W to be an honest and reliable witness, loves God.
One of the more common exercises used in improvisational classes is speaking in an unknown language.
I'm sure many people have seen this sort of thing on TV improv. shows and sitcoms.
Sometimes the director will say something like, "OK, now let me hear that scene in Italian."
It's just not that unusual. I posed this very thing to TWI leadership when I was a Way "newbie". I was told that SIT/TIP was impossible to fake and God would tell leadership if someone was trying to do this.
Yet, I know for a fact that it WAS done for quite awhile by someone I know personally and no one was ever suspicious,as far as I know. Now, I'm NOT saying that such a thing doesn't or couldn't exist.
What I AM saying is that I think what we learned about it in TWI is misguided and off the mark.
Oak I can only tell you this many years ago at a fellowship one of the guys who came brought his parents from out of town who were visiting. They wanted to check out this thing he was involved in. After fellowship they came up to me and asked where I learned to speak Spanish. I told them the only language I know is English and some people are not so sure about that even. They looked puzzled and said well in fellowship when you all spoke in different languages and interpreted you spoke Spanish and then interpreted in English. It seems that they thought that people were speaking in foreign languages known to them and then in English. That's the only time that ever happened, but it put them at ease and they felt ok with his involvement in fellowships . I think it was just for them
You'll pardon me though, if I remain a little skeptical, huh?
It's just that anecdotal evidence comes cheap, that's all. Now if one of these folks - who doesn't know the language - can simply speak in tongues in a controlled environment, sheesh, how easy would that be?
But that just never seems to happen. It's always the "This happened to me one time" or - more often - "I knew a guy who heard so-and-so" etc.
I guess the Almighty likes "signs", He just prefers to keep them ambiguous...
You'll pardon me though, if I remain a little skeptical, huh?
It's just that anecdotal evidence comes cheap, that's all. Now if one of these folks - who doesn't know the language - can simply speak in tongues in a controlled environment, sheesh, how easy would that be?
But that just never seems to happen. It's always the "This happened to me one time" or - more often - "I knew a guy who heard so-and-so" etc.
I guess the Almighty likes "signs", He just prefers to keep them ambiguous...
George you can take it or leave it I have no desire to convince you. As one who likes tangible proof myself, I can appreciate your position. I can offer you none. I can't even tell you why it happened for sure, only that it did. It did indeed happen one time and really there was no big moment from it at least for them. It's not like they signed up for the class and became some great believers or anything they enjoyed their visit and went home never to be heard from again. I do believe it somehow gave them some peace of mind, maybe that was all it was about Who knows ? I do find it interesting that people seem to believe things at face value around here in a negative light yet when it comes to something positive anecdotal evidence comes cheap. I'd think anecdotal evidence comes cheap from any story to be fair.
My personal opinion is that tongues were genuine for some people and others made it up, probably because it isn't something everyone can do, despite the TWI doctrine of "all nine all the time".
You'll pardon me though, if I remain a little skeptical, huh?
It's just that anecdotal evidence comes cheap, that's all. Now if one of these folks - who doesn't know the language - can simply speak in tongues in a controlled environment, sheesh, how easy would that be?
But that just never seems to happen. It's always the "This happened to me one time" or - more often - "I knew a guy who heard so-and-so" etc.
I guess the Almighty likes "signs", He just prefers to keep them ambiguous...
...as I said in my earlier post, I am a Christian (but maybe not in the "traditional" sense )...
...that being said, I always appreciate George's posts...besides making me laugh, they usually make me think also. IMHO, organized religion is almost always steeped in rituals and other "weird stuff" with no evidence that they didn't just make it up...other than "TAKE IT BY FAITH"...I keep my "spiritual beliefs" personal and private and I put little stock in the money making, holier than thou, organized "God business'" that passes as Christianity in this country today.
VP Wierwille was the PT Barnum who suckered us and conned us...ANYTHING he taught is suspect at best. Lo Shanta!
A personal religious faith requires no objective proof, because it's subjective, i.e. whatever you experience is for you, not for me and certainly not assembly-lined for the masses. That's what organized, institutionalized religion does, tries to make everybody fit in a one-size-fits-all box.
And what was the fetish vicster had with "shanta?" LoShanta - Moshanta - IliKoShanta - RaShanta - Malakasito - I think he got the whole interpretation thing wrong - should have been - My Santa is your Santa and other's Santa and everyone's Santa - blessed be he who brings the Christmas eggnog.
And what was the fetish vicster had with "shanta?" LoShanta - Moshanta - IliKoShanta - RaShanta - Malakasito - I think he got the whole interpretation thing wrong -should have been - My Santa is your Santa and other's Santa and everyone's Santa - blessed be he who brings the Christmas eggnog.
ROFLOL, rumrunner...
is that what vpw said!... i hadn't remembered that his "tongue" was a repetition of the word "shanta"...
The idea of the "practice session" using different letters or whatever, sure smacks of deliberately making a better fake SIT experience.
And how did vp know "beep beep beep boop boop boop" was not a legit language? Anyway, I guess faking it was OK, just don't say betty boop boop has a nice beep beep.
The idea of the "practice session" using different letters or whatever, sure smacks of deliberately making a better fake SIT experience.
No kidding! If it's from God, how can you decide what the first letter would be?
And how did vp know "beep beep beep boop boop boop" was not a legit language? Anyway, I guess faking it was OK, just don't say betty boop boop has a nice beep beep.
Oh yeah, the "I just wanna thank you..." They went on forever.
I always wondered, since, at meetings where there were no new people and we were supposedly all believers, why did we do tongues with interpretation, since the tongues were a sign for new people? Why not just skip the tongues and do the prophecy? Usually interpretation and prophecy were one and the same. For prophecy, you just skipped the tongues.
I didn't like the "excellor" sessions either. I thought it was totally unnecessary.
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I don't think you can lump it all together... I think that God works with individuals and not groups...I think some were real and some were not...
but...I'm a Christian...not everyone here is...I imagine that for them, it was all phoney.
If/when people DID genuinely speak in tongues...it was in SPITE of twi...and by the way, I think Wierwille's "tongues" was as fake as a three dollar bill..."Lo shanta kalimasita"...gime a break.
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waysider
I think there are really two different questions represented here.
1. Do you think there is validity to the Biblical accounts of speaking in tongues?
2. Do you think VPW was accurate in his analysis of its meaning and its application to modern times?
(Though I realize he did not reach those conclusions through his own doing.)
(1.)Personally, I think there is some validity to the Biblical accounts, though I'm not sure of the depth of the significance.
(2.) I'm inclined to believe that the speakers were aware of the meaning of their words and the burden of understanding fell on the recipients who did not normally understand the languages spoken. Sort of a reversal of what we have always assumed. In other words, I speak something in English, my native "tongue", yet someone who only understands French understands what I am saying. I guess, perhaps, the key would be in understanding who is being referred to when it talks about "their" native tongue, the speaker or the hearer?
Either way, I personally never heard an example of either version.
Wierwille's was probably the phoniest I ever heard.
If you listen to his "schpiel" in PLAF(The Miracle Class), you can hear him trying to justify the phoniness of his own tongue,
I know someone who totally faked the whole thing straight through the Intermediate Class and then on into twig fellowship.
Where was the "revelation" to alert the leaders of the deception?
And yet, I believe I received something I would now consider to be divine revelation without a shadow of a doubt.
(Once and only once as far as the certainty)
edited to note: If it wasn't revelation, there is something out there that is way too big and powerful for me to chance pizzing off.
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jen-o
well... i don't know about speaking in tongues "in" twi... or as a result of twi, i should say...
i spoke in tongues BEFORE i took pfal...
and i always thought my tongue sounded russian or polish or something like that...
however, in later years, i have run across people who were speaking a language that sounded similar to my tongue... and so i asked them if they could understand what i was saying...
i asked:
a romanian guy who goes to car auctions....
2 turkish women in the dollar store...
and a yugoslavian lady in a cafe...
ALL of them recognized it as a bonafide language, and looked at me like i was nuts when i questioned whether it was a "real" language... they insisted it was and that it sounded like hungarian or czechoslovakian or some such similar dialect...
so if anyone out there speaks hungarian or czechoslovakian, PM me!
peace,
jen-o
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Twinky
W's family are from another country and their native language is not English.
W's mother is/was a Pentecostal believer. W's father did not believe.
W's father became seriously ill. Appropriate treatment was not available.
W's mother had told W's father on many occasions he could be healed (by God). The father denied this, did not believe.
One day, W's mother went to church, came home, same routine. Father by this time getting very ill. He walked off.
W's mother called to him in English, a language she did not know but he did, telling him he could be healed if only he would trust God. Father snapped round, demanded a repeat, got it, so astonished that he instantly changed his mind, accepted that healing was available. W's mother had no idea what she had said.
W's father is (I think) still alive today.
W told me this. I consider W to be an honest and reliable witness, loves God.
Some time later the family got to hear about TWI.
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waysider
One of the more common exercises used in improvisational classes is speaking in an unknown language.
I'm sure many people have seen this sort of thing on TV improv. shows and sitcoms.
Sometimes the director will say something like, "OK, now let me hear that scene in Italian."
It's just not that unusual. I posed this very thing to TWI leadership when I was a Way "newbie". I was told that SIT/TIP was impossible to fake and God would tell leadership if someone was trying to do this.
Yet, I know for a fact that it WAS done for quite awhile by someone I know personally and no one was ever suspicious,as far as I know. Now, I'm NOT saying that such a thing doesn't or couldn't exist.
What I AM saying is that I think what we learned about it in TWI is misguided and off the mark.
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jen-o
waysider,
i agree with you that speaking in tongues can be counterfeited...
i've seen what you describe done on that show called "whose line is it anyway?"
although i must admit some folks are not very good at it... especially, drew carey... LOL
peace,
jen-o
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WhiteDove
Oak I can only tell you this many years ago at a fellowship one of the guys who came brought his parents from out of town who were visiting. They wanted to check out this thing he was involved in. After fellowship they came up to me and asked where I learned to speak Spanish. I told them the only language I know is English and some people are not so sure about that even. They looked puzzled and said well in fellowship when you all spoke in different languages and interpreted you spoke Spanish and then interpreted in English. It seems that they thought that people were speaking in foreign languages known to them and then in English. That's the only time that ever happened, but it put them at ease and they felt ok with his involvement in fellowships . I think it was just for them
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George Aar
You'll pardon me though, if I remain a little skeptical, huh?
It's just that anecdotal evidence comes cheap, that's all. Now if one of these folks - who doesn't know the language - can simply speak in tongues in a controlled environment, sheesh, how easy would that be?
But that just never seems to happen. It's always the "This happened to me one time" or - more often - "I knew a guy who heard so-and-so" etc.
I guess the Almighty likes "signs", He just prefers to keep them ambiguous...
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WhiteDove
George you can take it or leave it I have no desire to convince you. As one who likes tangible proof myself, I can appreciate your position. I can offer you none. I can't even tell you why it happened for sure, only that it did. It did indeed happen one time and really there was no big moment from it at least for them. It's not like they signed up for the class and became some great believers or anything they enjoyed their visit and went home never to be heard from again. I do believe it somehow gave them some peace of mind, maybe that was all it was about Who knows ? I do find it interesting that people seem to believe things at face value around here in a negative light yet when it comes to something positive anecdotal evidence comes cheap. I'd think anecdotal evidence comes cheap from any story to be fair.
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WordWolf
As to the original question asked here, I must say "No."
I did once speak in tongues for a fellow who was Jewish. He found the particular
cadences of the tongue I spoke in (which, like everything else about me, was
unique and idiosyncratic) to remind him of certain worship that they did,
basically chanting verses from the Torah.
He demonstrated, and yes, they sounded like the same cadences (pacing, spaces,
stressed syllables) but with completely different words, perhaps like comparing
one Romance language with another.
The things that convinced me more were instances involving "prophecy" or
"interpretation." I'll say that much, but I've said before I'm not posting the
specifics in cyberspace on them. They were more convincing FOR ME.
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Oakspear
My personal opinion is that tongues were genuine for some people and others made it up, probably because it isn't something everyone can do, despite the TWI doctrine of "all nine all the time".
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GrouchoMarxJr
...that being said, I always appreciate George's posts...besides making me laugh, they usually make me think also. IMHO, organized religion is almost always steeped in rituals and other "weird stuff" with no evidence that they didn't just make it up...other than "TAKE IT BY FAITH"...I keep my "spiritual beliefs" personal and private and I put little stock in the money making, holier than thou, organized "God business'" that passes as Christianity in this country today.
VP Wierwille was the PT Barnum who suckered us and conned us...ANYTHING he taught is suspect at best. Lo Shanta!
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Oakspear
A personal religious faith requires no objective proof, because it's subjective, i.e. whatever you experience is for you, not for me and certainly not assembly-lined for the masses. That's what organized, institutionalized religion does, tries to make everybody fit in a one-size-fits-all box.
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RumRunner
And what was the fetish vicster had with "shanta?" LoShanta - Moshanta - IliKoShanta - RaShanta - Malakasito - I think he got the whole interpretation thing wrong - should have been - My Santa is your Santa and other's Santa and everyone's Santa - blessed be he who brings the Christmas eggnog.
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jen-o
is that what vpw said!... i hadn't remembered that his "tongue" was a repetition of the word "shanta"...
but i love your interpretation! :lol:
peace,
jen-o
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rhino
The idea of the "practice session" using different letters or whatever, sure smacks of deliberately making a better fake SIT experience.
And how did vp know "beep beep beep boop boop boop" was not a legit language? Anyway, I guess faking it was OK, just don't say betty boop boop has a nice beep beep.
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Oakspear
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RumRunner
I was speaking in the tongues of farmers and rednecks and it came out "ee ay ee ay oh" - Sorry - well maybe not - just in a cynical mood today.
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excathedra
i don't know some of it was so contrived
i'm thinking about this one
i actually felt the tongues were more believable, but the interpretations just didn't do it for me
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GrouchoMarxJr
I always thought it a bit odd when the interpretation was always spoken in King James English...
...and yeah, practice sessions!...practice?...I thought that God gave the utterence?...looking back it's seems quite humerous to me
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excathedra
and i really didn't want to be a mydearchildren anymore
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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JustThinking
No more annoying that the "just thank you" prayers...
"Father, I want to just thank you for..." Over and over and over and over and over and...."
JT
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Sunesis
Oh yeah, the "I just wanna thank you..." They went on forever.
I always wondered, since, at meetings where there were no new people and we were supposedly all believers, why did we do tongues with interpretation, since the tongues were a sign for new people? Why not just skip the tongues and do the prophecy? Usually interpretation and prophecy were one and the same. For prophecy, you just skipped the tongues.
I didn't like the "excellor" sessions either. I thought it was totally unnecessary.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and the "spiritualhedgeofprotection" baloney got real old too...
...wonder why twi never taught us about the financial hedge of protection?...
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