My opinion is that the way that "God" was viewed changed with the changing culture. The OT god was portrayed the way he was because the Israelites were successful militarily, conquering most of Canaan and slaughtering their enemies. For the most part the OT god was portrayed as acting in much the same way as the gods of the neighboring nations were. In that culture their god would have been portrayed as "good" because he was taking care of business, making it safe for their tribe to prevail over their enemies. While the Hebrews viewed their god as the creator of the universe, he was their god, and not the god of all mankind; Yahweh was the biggest, baddest deity on the block in their opinion.
The Christian viewpoint is different, "God" is not the god of one tribal people, but everybody's god. From that viewpoint, the biblical god's commands to slaughter whole peoples seems cruel and not at all "good".
I think that before we can intelligently opine whether "God" is good or not, we need a definition of "good" that is non-circular.
That passage refers to Him being a just and righteous judge, which He is. But the Bible also says that He is "compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin." (Exodus 34:6-7).
I believe God is good, as demonstrated by the fact that He gave His only Son for us when He didn't have to, and offered us a part in His Kingdom program when we didn't deserve it.
For most believers in the biblical god, God defines good.
Not being one of those, I'd say that God, as described in at least the OT is not such a good guy.
My opinion is that the way that "God" was viewed changed with the changing culture. The OT god was portrayed the way he was because the Israelites were successful militarily, conquering most of Canaan and slaughtering their enemies. For the most part the OT god was portrayed as acting in much the same way as the gods of the neighboring nations were. In that culture their god would have been portrayed as "good" because he was taking care of business, making it safe for their tribe to prevail over their enemies. While the Hebrews viewed their god as the creator of the universe, he was their god, and not the god of all mankind; Yahweh was the biggest, baddest deity on the block in their opinion.
The Christian viewpoint is different, "God" is not the god of one tribal people, but everybody's god. From that viewpoint, the biblical god's commands to slaughter whole peoples seems cruel and not at all "good".
I think that before we can intelligently opine whether "God" is good or not, we need a definition of "good" that is non-circular.
Some great points, Oak and I think there's something to what you say - especially in post # 7.
I've thought about this thread for awhile...wondered if rather than a change in the personality of God [from OT to NT] the issue could be framed as a change in the timespan between actions and consequences. In the OT, judgment seems more immediate [disobedient people received curses, plagues, were conquered, etc.]. Whereas in the NT, we find passages that call for obedience now - or there will be hell to pay later.
There are passages in OT & NT that show He is a God of love, mercy, forgiveness - AND a God of justice and judgment. In my opinion, the difference to note is the time-frame of God's justice - the immediate context of one's life [depicted in many OT judgments] or the remote context of eternity as expressed in the NT.
...And I agree on needing a definition of good...guess everyone has their own idea of what is good.
Yes, my friends, He is good. He's always been good. My question is, are we good?
When God saw all that He had made, He declared it "good" and "very good." But it's not so good now. "We" are not so good now. Even the MacDonald's double cheeseburger is not as good as it used to be
You see, anoDan, that is where they tricked you. The MacDonald's double cheeseburger was never good. They just made you think it was. Looked good indefinitely, tasted good while warm, smelled good for a while, but it was actually never good for you.
I believe God is good, as demonstrated by the fact that He gave His only Son for us when He didn't have to, and offered us a part in His Kingdom program when we didn't deserve it.
I'm really not trying to be an a-hole here, but I have a problem with the whole 'rescue' thing. If, as the bible says, we needed rescuing, why do we need it? We need it because GOD set it up that way. He created Lucifer, knowing full well Lucifer was going to rebel against heaven and he was going to throw him in the pit of hell (or wherever he got sent).
Later on, Lucifer tempts Eve to 'rebel' against God too. God knew this was going to happen also. If he didn't, then he isn't omniscient (and, perhaps, not all powerful). It seems to me, this little morality play was/is a bad bet for all concerned.
Lindy, I must take exception to your characterization of the McDonald's double cheeseburger. I'm quite sure that it was in fact better before they hid the little hockey pucks in the little warming trays, sprinkled them with cold re-hydrated onion, etc. Much better. In the old days, they fried up those pucks to sizzling hot and put the cold rehydrated onions right on them while still grilling, then they flipped them, grease and all, onto toasted buns, added condiments (no mustard on the East Coast in the early days... just ketchup and pickle... but in California, they added mustard in the same era), and sent it out to a grateful nation.
Sushi, I appreciate you (and a number of other people around here who don't want to be a-holes). It is a good thing to be reasonable rather than superstitious. I too might join the unbelieving set if I didn't have such a deep faith! Ultimately, I believe but cannot prove, the wisdom of God and the love of God will shine forth unmistakably to all, including you. There are those who will pooh-pooh the believer for believing that there is a peace that passes all understanding and a love that passes knowledge, but there is.
edited to more faithfully expound on the rehydrated onions
The definition of good.....not needing a second root canal.
I remember those MickieD cheeseburgers from my college days. It was the most comforting food for a hangover. Now that was good.
To me Proverbs 1 explains how life works. It is like the driver's handbook. I am a very simplistic person so bare with me. Father didn't do anything to anybody. They did it to themselves. He layed out the laws, statutes, words. He said if you obey the rules of the road you won't get to enjoy all the privileges of driving and you are free to roam around the country. But if you don't then you will lose your license. In other words, if you follow me (choose life!!) I can, will and am able to do this and this and this for you. If you don't then the evil one is going to eat you alive. He makes it so plain and clear.
I liken it to my children. If you choose to rebel against the family values and standards then guess what? You don't get any dessert. As a matter of fact it may be bread and water for a few days. Not literally, that is just how they feel. Since the day they were born they were taught, by our words and example how life works. If they speed and get a ticket is it the DMV's fault? They pay the price with no access to an automobile and having to pay higher insurance rates. To me that is just how simple life works. Just a simple example.
Now, as far as what the guy putting on the white gloves said........I too have pondered this. All I can say is I don't know everything but I know the One who does. And that suffices for me. I am none the worse off for not knowing everything.
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Oakspear
For most believers in the biblical god, God defines good.
Not being one of those, I'd say that God, as described in at least the OT is not such a good guy.
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cman
Thanks for being honest in how you see this Oakspear.
I'd like to see more real honesty without fear.
Not saying there isn't, just would like to see more.
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excathedra
i hang on to the belief that god is good but i don't read the bible
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George Aar
Well, He's been behaving much better since the anger-management seminar...
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cman
In the bigger picture it is Good I think.
Traveling through that picture is good in the long run.
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Oakspear
My opinion is that the way that "God" was viewed changed with the changing culture. The OT god was portrayed the way he was because the Israelites were successful militarily, conquering most of Canaan and slaughtering their enemies. For the most part the OT god was portrayed as acting in much the same way as the gods of the neighboring nations were. In that culture their god would have been portrayed as "good" because he was taking care of business, making it safe for their tribe to prevail over their enemies. While the Hebrews viewed their god as the creator of the universe, he was their god, and not the god of all mankind; Yahweh was the biggest, baddest deity on the block in their opinion.
The Christian viewpoint is different, "God" is not the god of one tribal people, but everybody's god. From that viewpoint, the biblical god's commands to slaughter whole peoples seems cruel and not at all "good".
I think that before we can intelligently opine whether "God" is good or not, we need a definition of "good" that is non-circular.
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cman
Well everyone would have a different opinion on what is good I'd say.
Good point though!...lol :)
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Mark Clarke
That passage refers to Him being a just and righteous judge, which He is. But the Bible also says that He is "compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin." (Exodus 34:6-7).
I believe God is good, as demonstrated by the fact that He gave His only Son for us when He didn't have to, and offered us a part in His Kingdom program when we didn't deserve it.
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T-Bone
Some great points, Oak and I think there's something to what you say - especially in post # 7.
I've thought about this thread for awhile...wondered if rather than a change in the personality of God [from OT to NT] the issue could be framed as a change in the timespan between actions and consequences. In the OT, judgment seems more immediate [disobedient people received curses, plagues, were conquered, etc.]. Whereas in the NT, we find passages that call for obedience now - or there will be hell to pay later.
There are passages in OT & NT that show He is a God of love, mercy, forgiveness - AND a God of justice and judgment. In my opinion, the difference to note is the time-frame of God's justice - the immediate context of one's life [depicted in many OT judgments] or the remote context of eternity as expressed in the NT.
...And I agree on needing a definition of good...guess everyone has their own idea of what is good.
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anotherDan
Yes, my friends, He is good. He's always been good. My question is, are we good?
When God saw all that He had made, He declared it "good" and "very good." But it's not so good now. "We" are not so good now. Even the MacDonald's double cheeseburger is not as good as it used to be
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wrdsandwrks
YES!
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lindyhopper
You see, anoDan, that is where they tricked you. The MacDonald's double cheeseburger was never good. They just made you think it was. Looked good indefinitely, tasted good while warm, smelled good for a while, but it was actually never good for you.
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Sushi
I'm really not trying to be an a-hole here, but I have a problem with the whole 'rescue' thing. If, as the bible says, we needed rescuing, why do we need it? We need it because GOD set it up that way. He created Lucifer, knowing full well Lucifer was going to rebel against heaven and he was going to throw him in the pit of hell (or wherever he got sent).
Later on, Lucifer tempts Eve to 'rebel' against God too. God knew this was going to happen also. If he didn't, then he isn't omniscient (and, perhaps, not all powerful). It seems to me, this little morality play was/is a bad bet for all concerned.
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anotherDan
Lindy, I must take exception to your characterization of the McDonald's double cheeseburger. I'm quite sure that it was in fact better before they hid the little hockey pucks in the little warming trays, sprinkled them with cold re-hydrated onion, etc. Much better. In the old days, they fried up those pucks to sizzling hot and put the cold rehydrated onions right on them while still grilling, then they flipped them, grease and all, onto toasted buns, added condiments (no mustard on the East Coast in the early days... just ketchup and pickle... but in California, they added mustard in the same era), and sent it out to a grateful nation.
Sushi, I appreciate you (and a number of other people around here who don't want to be a-holes). It is a good thing to be reasonable rather than superstitious. I too might join the unbelieving set if I didn't have such a deep faith! Ultimately, I believe but cannot prove, the wisdom of God and the love of God will shine forth unmistakably to all, including you. There are those who will pooh-pooh the believer for believing that there is a peace that passes all understanding and a love that passes knowledge, but there is.
edited to more faithfully expound on the rehydrated onions
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kimberly
The definition of good.....not needing a second root canal.
I remember those MickieD cheeseburgers from my college days. It was the most comforting food for a hangover. Now that was good.
To me Proverbs 1 explains how life works. It is like the driver's handbook. I am a very simplistic person so bare with me. Father didn't do anything to anybody. They did it to themselves. He layed out the laws, statutes, words. He said if you obey the rules of the road you won't get to enjoy all the privileges of driving and you are free to roam around the country. But if you don't then you will lose your license. In other words, if you follow me (choose life!!) I can, will and am able to do this and this and this for you. If you don't then the evil one is going to eat you alive. He makes it so plain and clear.
I liken it to my children. If you choose to rebel against the family values and standards then guess what? You don't get any dessert. As a matter of fact it may be bread and water for a few days. Not literally, that is just how they feel. Since the day they were born they were taught, by our words and example how life works. If they speed and get a ticket is it the DMV's fault? They pay the price with no access to an automobile and having to pay higher insurance rates. To me that is just how simple life works. Just a simple example.
Now, as far as what the guy putting on the white gloves said........I too have pondered this. All I can say is I don't know everything but I know the One who does. And that suffices for me. I am none the worse off for not knowing everything.
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