Well, in retrospect, I guess I CAN see that Invisible Dan is a reprobate.
Come to think of it, he doesn't know my Spiderman either, and made some untoward comments about His "spidey senses".
Get the torches!
Oh Please-that is so passe-so 19th century ---We will just get him on stage with Benny Hinn and slay him a few times. Ooops I mean in the spirit. Or did I?
Actually, according to cult documents previously submitted, Grumpy may have a cult court date coming soon to trial? Obviously, there has been much concern expressed by this and his current ill health (plus the required KP duties and cleaning of a VERY untidy Krypt!).
The bad news is, it appears the cult appointed lawyer on the case has little legal experience as evidenced by previous depositions.
I've heard rumors about Grumpy possibly stalking poor Snowy? And the restraining order and all, isn't this the REAL reason for his absence?
I've heard rumors about Grumpy possibly stalking poor Snowy? And the restraining order and all, isn't this the REAL reason for his absence?
I'm glad you asked that question. There have been some reported leeks to the press. BUT let me stress these are only "allegations", UNsubstantiated allegations due to lack of Eye Vitnesses.
Some female members of the PROSECUTION who we have not EVEN met, have gone so far! as to send "threatening" pm (PU) messages as to how zey view the situation, even using outrageous terms like "TROLL" amongst others!! (Defamation of Character (DOC) and inflammatory language has also bin seen against other posters recently).
This may in fact turn out to be a case requiring substantially additional legal advice, which is why we are considering flying in a Crack Troop of legal experts from overseas. (unfortunately der Kommand of za englisch language ist nicht ganz komplett!)
Actually, it has nothing to do with liking or disliking what you said. It was my perception that you were using your own beliefs as a standard for everyone else, or at least for Invisible Dan. You presume to judge his faith and knowledge. I commented on it.
well...that's just too damn bad!
Gee Jeno-O, I've found our discussions in the past to be much more civil than this, even when we disagree. Having a bad day?
if i KNOW someone intimately, and someone else comes along making wisecracks and badmouthing the person i KNOW (in ths case, Jesus), then i'm gonna speak up about it...
Invisble Dan was making some observations. You made some statements that put your "knowledge" about Jesus over his. I commented on it.
you don't like me using the example of my kids?...
Not so much a like or a dislike, just don't think that the analogy was applicable.
well, let's take any person on the planet (X),
and let's say that i KNOW "X" intimately, and another person "Y" comes along and says things about "X"... you don't think i'm gonna know whether "Y" really knows "X" or not?... of course i will know... i (along with anyone else who knows "X") can tell by the things "Y" says whether he really knows "X" or not...
Pretty much the same analogy. I still don't think it applies. But I guess that it's "too damn bad"
i didn't make any "standards"...
Whether you "made" them or not, you attempt to apply them and your perceptions to everyone.
i didn't claim any "exclusivity"...
You did insofar as you exclude anyone whose perceptions of Jesus is different from yours
i was merely perceptive enough to know that the person making wisecracks and badmouthing the person i KNOW (Jesus), that person making those remarks does NOT know the same person that i KNOW...
is Jesus so small that he can be constrained by your perception? I would hope not.
and if you don't like that, that's just too damn bad!
I guess if I was as hostile as you seem to be, I might say that it too, is "too damn bad" if you don't like what I have to say, but I'm a bit more tolerant than that.
but peace anyway,
jen-o
What does that mean to you? You rip into me, tell me that it's "too damn bad" if i don't like what you're saying, but it's okay because you say "peace" at the end? Seems somewhat hypocritical to me.
Edited by Mod Cow
p.s. correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you said you were a pagan... so how can you be so presumptuous as to rebuke me for talking about someone who is in MY FAMILY?!?
I did not "rebuke" you for anything. I made a comment. This is a discussion forum, you know, we...discuss things :o
i don't presume to know anything about your pagan relationships...
No you don't, and you've never commented on my faith directly, however you regularly comment on other people's beliefs and spiritual relationships when they did not agree with yours.
so why do you think you have a right to rebuke me for talking about my christian relationships?? you think my family members are 'fair game' for the rest of the world to make wisecracks about?
I think I covered the "rebuking" part, but no, I don't think your family is fair game to make wisecracks about, and (1) I didn't make any wisecracks and (2)If you're talking about Invisible Dan, he didn't either
If you're including Jesus in your "family", you have every right to consider him as such, but he is not exclusively yours, he's somewhat in the "public domain" so to speak. I don't recognize him as being off limits in any doctrinal discussion.
...and then someone who is admittedly pagan has the nerve to rebuke me for stating the obvious which is that i KNOW my Lord and my Savior and people who have not accepted Him as Lord and Savior do NOT know Him (i mean, duh!)
Yeah, what nerve I've got for stating an opinion. <_<
What? Being a pagan means that I have to shut up and not express my opinion? I stood up for you the other day when one of my fellow pagans suggested you find a Christian forum. You judge Dan's "relationship" with Jesus to be non-existant or inferior to yours...based on your own subjective standards.
Don't presume to suggest what I have the right to talk about and what I don't.
Nice to see you too Bramble! Summer is here, we are finally adequately staffed at work, and life is good. I miss the discussions we used to have here. I don't know if it is me who has changed or this place, but it seems there was a time when things weren't so caustic down here.
Oh well, I'll keep peaking in to see if things settle back down again.
I've never posted here (that I can recall) but... YES DEMONS Oakspear - submit to exorcism now - or be banished to the coach of eternal darkness...Your ability to think outside of traditional Christian doctrine proves to a small minority that you are indeed in need of superior spiritual supervision by those who can cast out the demons of rational thinking that doesn't elevate PFAL to some idolatrous level of "let me judge you to eternal hell."
Abigail, I do think doctrinal has seen better days. Oh well.
Ranchers are busy here, we've had lots of moisture so hay is growing well--which means my husband is busy since he works in the ranch industry.One of my kids does now too! My job won't get busy until August, when schools and Universities start buying for the school year so I have some time off planned--going to a women's drum circle without the family, with a couple of gal pals! First trip I've ever done without the husband or kids or my sister since I got married!
Jeno - I applaud you, because interestingly enough, I see you exercising a far nobler and far healthier conception of “family” than Jesus himself
is seen expressing in places. In fact, like the cult leaders of our own time, Jesus appeared in places strikingly antagonistic to the notion of the
natural “family” unit:
“Do you think I have come to send peace upon the earth? No, I tell you, but division…they will be divided, father against son and son against his father;
mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, etc. (Matt.24:34ff/Luke 12:49ff).
This doesn’t exactly promote “family values”, does it.
“…and one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, let me go first and bury my father” But Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury the dead”
(Matt.8:21-22)
Some have interpreted “bury my father” as being idiomatic for caring for an elderly parent in their feeble age, and still others have interpreted “let the
city bury the dead”, As if to suggest: “it’s not your problem – let “the city” do it,” or someone else.
Whatever the case may be, this sickens me greatly as not one of Jesus’ finer moments. I'm not impressed with him here at all. Especially in light of my
own experience as having cared for my own parents in their final years, who were no longer able to care for themselves. To their credit, each sibling in
my family put their lives on hold to help them out. Our parents cared for us when we were children. And then it was our turn to care for them.
Put yourself in that person’s sandals, when being told by “God”:“Throw your parent under the bus, and follow me”
And what horrible pain, grief and heartbreak must have gone through the mind of that feeble, weak parent, had his son actually abandoned him
to follow the latest messiah.
Herein a question to pose to everyone here:
If Jesus told you that you must abandon a dying parent or loved one in order to follow him, - would you have done it?
It always surprises me, and it shouldn't, when people pronounce judgement on something with no more than a cursory understanding. The human condition I suppose. To see things through the small prism of our tiny understanding.
I do this.
To follow Him and to cleave to Him, we often give up much much more than burying a parent. We can lose parents, children, loved ones-riches-comfort-our dreams and desires, and sometimes our very lives to follow Him. He tells us to give up the world--he calls some to wretched poverty. WHY would a loving God ask this of us? Ego? Vanity, Cruelty? Kicks?
Who would follow a God like that? However, the apostles had no problem dropping their lives to follow. Millions upon millions have done the same. Many-Many to horrible deaths-most SINGING praises to Him as they burned or were tortured. SINGING as they died. Some watched their children die first. Read some martyr stories--they will SHOCK you. The man who wrote "It is Well" wrote it as his ocean liner passed over the spot where his FOUR daughters had recently drowned. Peter was crucified upside down because He didn't count himself worthy to die in the same manner as Jesus.
How is it that people can leave what you proclaim important? Family values was it? For what? Christians leave worldly comfort for a life here on earth that is marked with suffering. Not all Christians prosper--not all are healed--but ALL are chastened. All are tried. All are stripped of pride.
Who would do this? Most would call us crazy. Not a surprise. But why do it?
Why do we do it? Willingly-Gladly- Here is a term you have heard on this thread--Because we KNOW Him. A moment in His presence and we are dropped to our knees. His GLORY and HIS LOVE are unfathomable. His glance sustains us--He is WORTHY of ALL I have to give.
What I have here is temporal-a fleeting moment--but what I am given is an eternity with Him. He strips me of the temporal--the fleeting and the things that draw me from Him--so that I can recieve the very best thing. Himself.
He saves me, refines me, and will someday present me.
He gives me Himself. He is enough. Life isn't about God, IT IS God. Joy is God. Peace is God.
A verse that we are all familar with John 10:10--is true--but it isn't riches, or cars --or stuff that give us abundance--it is Him.
God has no pride-or ego-He is gentle, kind and he is loving. He gives us Himself because that is the very best--that is His unspeakable gift.
That is worth ALL--HE is Worthy. If I place something before Him in my life--He loves me and enough so that He will refocus me on Him.
I have been given things from God and then had them taken away. GOD TAKES THINGS AWAY. He always shows me that HE is best for me.
Through difficult-painful trials-I have learned to THANK and PRAISE Him. To understand that He KNOWS Best.
Now here is the kicker---I am to love you---to lay down my life if need be as a witness of His love for YOU! After leaving my dying parents.
It has been done many times before.
A young North Korean man was tortured to death--but as he died he forgave and loved His captors. One of them was converted by his witness and now serves the persecuted Church in North Korea. Now KNOWS Jesus and would willingly die to save someone else.
Why would he do that? Love--because he is given unspeakable love in the person of Jesus Christ.
The same Jesus who told that man to let the dead bury their own and to follow Him. The same Jesus who loved him and understood far greater than you what it means to follow Him--Knows the greater gift He gives-knows eternity. He knows that gift is worthy.
Nothing comes before Him-Nothing. Not my ideas-not my values, my family, my selfish wants, or my life. Because that is the best. He offered that man the Best thing ever possible-to follow Him into eternity.
I meant to thank you for your posts here so far, and I certainly thank you for your last one, for reminding me (despite my opinions here regarding imperfections) of
one of the most loftiest and challenging edicts to mankind to proceed from the lips of Jesus, "Love your enemies".
I hope - if only this idea alone - might eventually circulate more prominently in the mainstream of human thought.
It would be a much better world for it. Much preferable to the sabre-rattlings going on among the different nations now.
Can we learn to love one another before sending this little world into oblivion?
But then I might add also - Christians are not the only ones who have laid down their lives for their faith. And not all martyrs have laid down their lives for the noble
reasons you've described. Far from being "stripped of all pride", martydom can also become something of a "pride" in and of itself, or even worst, a death wish.
Not all the Christian martyrs of old were thrown to the lions - some threw themselves to the ravenous beasts with joy. Might not the desire to rush to one's
heavenly estate be just as easily be motivated out of selfishness? And lest we forget - those which regarded themselves as "martyrs" for their cause,
when they steered those hijacked planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on 9/11?
But then I might add also - Christians are not the only ones who have laid down their lives for their faith. And not all martyrs have laid down their lives for the noble
reasons you've described. Far from being "stripped of all pride", martydom can also become something of a "pride" in and of itself, or even worst, a death wish.
Not all the Christian martyrs of old were thrown to the lions - some threw themselves to the ravenous beasts with joy. Might not the desire to rush to one's
heavenly estate be just as easily be motivated out of selfishness? And lest we forget - those which regarded themselves as "martyrs" for their cause,
when they steered those hijacked planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on 9/11?
Hi,
I know the stories to which you refer. Actually part of my undergrad work. Yes, there was an odd kind of ectasy in these people who fought to throw themselves first to ravenous beast. In the lines waiting for Christians to be brought out to lions--there were arguments over who would go first! Selfish?
I don't know
I do know that those who gives their lives for the Christian faith understand that God is JUST. An unfamilar characteristic of God to many Wayfers-Ex and present.
Most Christians do understand that the glory and reward of heaven is far greater than the moments of earthly suffering. The man who was born blind--for God's glory--his reward is in eternity and never ends. His life here on earth was a blink.
Paul talked about this-To live is Christ-to die is gain. But Paul lived and suffered and served. Because he loved. Other Christians do the same. Many in less than comfortable conditions. Knowing that we are slaves or servants of Christ. That is our calling.
A blip on the Christian radar of a group of ecstatic self-made martyrs in no way exemplifies the heart of a servant of God. There are many examples of things done in His name that chill me. That is a whole other discussion--I could probably out cite you on those instances. The Way alone gives us enough material for a set of encyclopedias.
That is why we are told to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. That is why we follow Jesus-hear His voice and KNOW Him.
As for those who die in vain for a faith such as Islam. I don't think I really even need to point out the differences, but will just say that their deaths-steal from people, kill others and destroy the lives of many. There is a great book I would encourage you to read called Prisoners of Hope. It was written by the two American girls held by the Taliban during the beginning of the Afghanastan war. It really does exemplify the love in a Christian heart for muslims.
As for this world -- this is where we make our decision about Jesus. It is a question that you are asked whether you realize it right now or not. And if Vp ever said
anything true it was this. "You tell me what you think about Jesus Christ who he is and I will tell you how far you will go. . . "
I for one love that you ask these questions. Jesus can stand-up under your scrutiny. I hope you are asking Him these questions as you seek Him out in the gospels.
By the way, I do care for my mom who is older, well not really old, but infirm and as helpless as a kitten. So, I applaud your love and devotion to your parents and the care you gave them. It is in no way easy.
Of course all the wonderfulness of martyrdom and the selflessness and sacrifice becomes rather moot if Christianity turns out to be just another religion among the many. Just another collection of folksy wisdom, old-wives tales, a smattering of distorted history, and CARLOADS of credulous superstition.
Certainly there have been selfless martyrs of just about every religious stripe I can think of. Logically, wouldn't it appear that the vast majority of them are simply tragically deluded? (I would vote for "all" but then, I would).
The one question that I can never seem to get a straight answer to from the "believer" crowd is -
What makes The Bible so special? Why is IT true, and NOT all the other holy writs? With all the easily demonstrated errors in it, and it's almost laughable lineage, and all the efforts to distort and amend it's contents, let alone all the outright forgeries, how can one logically cleave to such a work? It's a question that troubled me greatly as a believer. As an unbeliever - not so much...
The one question that I can never seem to get a straight answer to from the "believer" crowd is -
What makes The Bible so special? Why is IT true, and NOT all the other holy writs? With all the easily demonstrated errors in it, and it's almost laughable lineage, and all the efforts to distort and amend it's contents, let alone all the outright forgeries, how can one logically cleave to such a work? It's a question that troubled me greatly as a believer. As an unbeliever - not so much...
Hi,
George, just an observation and in no way a judgement, you seem to work very hard at your unbelief.
I am no apologist. I neither have the time nor talent to disabuse you of your narrow tenant and understanding, but I do empathize with it. I would however, direct you to a wonderful book by Frank Turek called I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. I have met the man--he is a hoot. From JERSEY.
If you like, I would gladly send it to you. My treat--if nothing else it will answer those questions you have. He addresses all the items laid out in your post.
I sense you would rather dwell in the land of unbelief for awhile, but the book is yours if you would like. Along with my very best.
As for those who die in vain for a faith such as Islam. I don't think I really even need to point out the differences...
I agree that there are differences, but the similarity is that martyrs from both Christianity and Islam are both convinced of the absolute rightness of their faith. The Muslim using the Koran is just as successfull as the Christian using the Bible at documenting their position.
Edited by Oakspear
* the wonderfulness of martyrdom and the selflessness and sacrifice *
The one question that I can never seem to get a straight answer to from the "believer" crowd is -
What makes The Bible so special? Why is IT true, and NOT all the other holy writs?
Because after PFAL, Our Father in The Word, didn't have time to "research" the Koran and complete the Koranic Research Required (KRR) to create the verses for PFIB. <_<
Of course all the wonderfulness of martyrdom and the selflessness and sacrifice becomes rather moot if Christianity turns out to be just another religion among the many. Just another collection of folksy wisdom, old-wives tales, a smattering of distorted history, and CARLOADS of credulous superstition.
Certainly there have been selfless martyrs of just about every religious stripe I can think of. Logically, wouldn't it appear that the vast majority of them are simply tragically deluded? (I would vote for "all" but then, I would).
The one question that I can never seem to get a straight answer to from the "believer" crowd is -
What makes The Bible so special? Why is IT true, and NOT all the other holy writs? With all the easily demonstrated errors in it, and it's almost laughable lineage, and all the efforts to distort and amend it's contents, let alone all the outright forgeries, how can one logically cleave to such a work? It's a question that troubled me greatly as a believer. As an unbeliever - not so much...
Christianity is for the most part an exclusionary religion, and meant to be publically proclaimed so others will be won, so their book can be the only right book, just like their way can be the only right way. It is part of the Christian culture--those who don't like or believe in the exculsionary aspect either find a form of Chrisitanity they can work with, or move on to other beliefs, agnostisim ...
People make a choice, based on whatever personal gnossis/ personal spiritual experience or lack thereof that makes the most sense to them. To many Christians, making the Christian choice is the only right decision humankind can make, which makes nonChristians wrong, of course. Chrisitianity ( some types) are in direct competition with other beliefs or lack of beliefs, thus all the motivational and sales type technique, join our team...
Faith can be believed and lived but it can't be proved, IMO.
Christianity is for the most part an exclusionary religion
People make a choice, based on whatever personal gnossis/ personal spiritual experience or lack thereof that makes the most sense to them. To many Christians, making the Christian choice is the only right decision humankind can make, which makes nonChristians wrong, of course. Chrisitianity ( some types) are in direct competition with other beliefs or lack of beliefs, thus all the motivational and sales type technique, join our team...
Faith can be believed and lived but it can't be proved, IMO.
Doctor said it was because of what we have been taught. That means if dad was a jew or an arab or just an a$s drinkin at Moes bar that's probably what we would be? But then I took pfal and I found lots of answers to questions I had always been thinking about like gnossis and why some people buy houses with red curtains. I don't know about Christianity being exclusionary, but I do know I've never been invited to a mosque in africa, maybe its because I'm not the same color.
As far as proving my faith in Jesus, I speak to him every night no matter what town I'm in.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
24
30
42
21
Popular Days
Jun 28
23
Jun 27
18
Jul 1
17
Jun 30
17
Top Posters In This Topic
Oakspear 24 posts
Caveman 30 posts
geisha779 42 posts
cman 21 posts
Popular Days
Jun 28 2008
23 posts
Jun 27 2008
18 posts
Jul 1 2008
17 posts
Jun 30 2008
17 posts
Popular Posts
geisha779
Hi Invisible Dan You said "When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction. Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar." I have
geisha779
Hi Oakspear, Badgering me? I hardly see your discussion as such!! I had better be able to tell you WHY I believe the bible is true, and correct in its declarations of God. That it is His declaration
geisha779
Again--missing my point. I truly understand why. I could once show you scholarship for The Myth of the 6 Million. I bet you, that at one time, if not believed it-----you seriously considered it.
geisha779
Oh Please-that is so passe-so 19th century ---We will just get him on stage with Benny Hinn and slay him a few times. Ooops I mean in the spirit. Or did I?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
I've heard rumors about Grumpy possibly stalking poor Snowy? And the restraining order and all, isn't this the REAL reason for his absence?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
I'm glad you asked that question. There have been some reported leeks to the press. BUT let me stress these are only "allegations", UNsubstantiated allegations due to lack of Eye Vitnesses.
Some female members of the PROSECUTION who we have not EVEN met, have gone so far! as to send "threatening" pm (PU) messages as to how zey view the situation, even using outrageous terms like "TROLL" amongst others!! (Defamation of Character (DOC) and inflammatory language has also bin seen against other posters recently).
This may in fact turn out to be a case requiring substantially additional legal advice, which is why we are considering flying in a Crack Troop of legal experts from overseas. (unfortunately der Kommand of za englisch language ist nicht ganz komplett!)
That's all I can say for za moment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
If you're including Jesus in your "family", you have every right to consider him as such, but he is not exclusively yours, he's somewhat in the "public domain" so to speak. I don't recognize him as being off limits in any doctrinal discussion.
********************************************************************************
*****************************************************
I shouldn't waste my time arguing with nitwits, but here I go:First of all, I'm not trying to get anyone's dander up, I made a point.
Arguing with demons? What your point bud?
********************************************************************************
******************************************************
Yeah, what nerve I've got for stating an opinion. <_<What? Being a pagan means that I have to shut up and not express my opinion? I stood up for you the other day when one of my fellow pagans suggested you find a Christian forum. You judge Dan's "relationship" with Jesus to be non-existant or inferior to yours...based on your own subjective standards.
Don't presume to suggest what I have the right to talk about and what I don't.
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Demons?!
Holy crap.
What the h#ll is wrong with people?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080628/D91J2GUG0.html
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Nice to see you too Bramble! Summer is here, we are finally adequately staffed at work, and life is good. I miss the discussions we used to have here. I don't know if it is me who has changed or this place, but it seems there was a time when things weren't so caustic down here.
Oh well, I'll keep peaking in to see if things settle back down again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
I've never posted here (that I can recall) but... YES DEMONS Oakspear - submit to exorcism now - or be banished to the coach of eternal darkness...Your ability to think outside of traditional Christian doctrine proves to a small minority that you are indeed in need of superior spiritual supervision by those who can cast out the demons of rational thinking that doesn't elevate PFAL to some idolatrous level of "let me judge you to eternal hell."
Edited by RumRunnerLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Ranchers are busy here, we've had lots of moisture so hay is growing well--which means my husband is busy since he works in the ranch industry.One of my kids does now too! My job won't get busy until August, when schools and Universities start buying for the school year so I have some time off planned--going to a women's drum circle without the family, with a couple of gal pals! First trip I've ever done without the husband or kids or my sister since I got married!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
I think my days of "take a stand for God" are over with.
There's just too many things that changed and keep changing.
Sure I'll stay with love,
but as for the rest I'll just stay flexible.
It's like a phase, that went too long.
Finally getting past all that, though some good came out of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
Ah hahahaha! Demons?
That is funny.
Daimone?
Careful if you read this post you may get possessed!
Back evil pagan BACK!
Cue "Triller"!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Do we need a cyber-exorcism?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Jeno - I applaud you, because interestingly enough, I see you exercising a far nobler and far healthier conception of “family” than Jesus himself
is seen expressing in places. In fact, like the cult leaders of our own time, Jesus appeared in places strikingly antagonistic to the notion of the
natural “family” unit:
“Do you think I have come to send peace upon the earth? No, I tell you, but division…they will be divided, father against son and son against his father;
mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, etc. (Matt.24:34ff/Luke 12:49ff).
This doesn’t exactly promote “family values”, does it.
“…and one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, let me go first and bury my father” But Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury the dead”
(Matt.8:21-22)
Some have interpreted “bury my father” as being idiomatic for caring for an elderly parent in their feeble age, and still others have interpreted “let the
city bury the dead”, As if to suggest: “it’s not your problem – let “the city” do it,” or someone else.
Whatever the case may be, this sickens me greatly as not one of Jesus’ finer moments. I'm not impressed with him here at all. Especially in light of my
own experience as having cared for my own parents in their final years, who were no longer able to care for themselves. To their credit, each sibling in
my family put their lives on hold to help them out. Our parents cared for us when we were children. And then it was our turn to care for them.
Put yourself in that person’s sandals, when being told by “God”:“Throw your parent under the bus, and follow me”
And what horrible pain, grief and heartbreak must have gone through the mind of that feeble, weak parent, had his son actually abandoned him
to follow the latest messiah.
Herein a question to pose to everyone here:
If Jesus told you that you must abandon a dying parent or loved one in order to follow him, - would you have done it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
If it was in the early stages when I was just checking him out, I probably would have figured that he was a nut and gone back home.
Now if I had been following him around for a while, and maybe even be considered a "disciple", it probably would have been easier to do.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Hi,
It always surprises me, and it shouldn't, when people pronounce judgement on something with no more than a cursory understanding. The human condition I suppose. To see things through the small prism of our tiny understanding.
I do this.
To follow Him and to cleave to Him, we often give up much much more than burying a parent. We can lose parents, children, loved ones-riches-comfort-our dreams and desires, and sometimes our very lives to follow Him. He tells us to give up the world--he calls some to wretched poverty. WHY would a loving God ask this of us? Ego? Vanity, Cruelty? Kicks?
Who would follow a God like that? However, the apostles had no problem dropping their lives to follow. Millions upon millions have done the same. Many-Many to horrible deaths-most SINGING praises to Him as they burned or were tortured. SINGING as they died. Some watched their children die first. Read some martyr stories--they will SHOCK you. The man who wrote "It is Well" wrote it as his ocean liner passed over the spot where his FOUR daughters had recently drowned. Peter was crucified upside down because He didn't count himself worthy to die in the same manner as Jesus.
How is it that people can leave what you proclaim important? Family values was it? For what? Christians leave worldly comfort for a life here on earth that is marked with suffering. Not all Christians prosper--not all are healed--but ALL are chastened. All are tried. All are stripped of pride.
Who would do this? Most would call us crazy. Not a surprise. But why do it?
Why do we do it? Willingly-Gladly- Here is a term you have heard on this thread--Because we KNOW Him. A moment in His presence and we are dropped to our knees. His GLORY and HIS LOVE are unfathomable. His glance sustains us--He is WORTHY of ALL I have to give.
What I have here is temporal-a fleeting moment--but what I am given is an eternity with Him. He strips me of the temporal--the fleeting and the things that draw me from Him--so that I can recieve the very best thing. Himself.
He saves me, refines me, and will someday present me.
He gives me Himself. He is enough. Life isn't about God, IT IS God. Joy is God. Peace is God.
A verse that we are all familar with John 10:10--is true--but it isn't riches, or cars --or stuff that give us abundance--it is Him.
God has no pride-or ego-He is gentle, kind and he is loving. He gives us Himself because that is the very best--that is His unspeakable gift.
That is worth ALL--HE is Worthy. If I place something before Him in my life--He loves me and enough so that He will refocus me on Him.
I have been given things from God and then had them taken away. GOD TAKES THINGS AWAY. He always shows me that HE is best for me.
Through difficult-painful trials-I have learned to THANK and PRAISE Him. To understand that He KNOWS Best.
Now here is the kicker---I am to love you---to lay down my life if need be as a witness of His love for YOU! After leaving my dying parents.
It has been done many times before.
A young North Korean man was tortured to death--but as he died he forgave and loved His captors. One of them was converted by his witness and now serves the persecuted Church in North Korea. Now KNOWS Jesus and would willingly die to save someone else.
Why would he do that? Love--because he is given unspeakable love in the person of Jesus Christ.
The same Jesus who told that man to let the dead bury their own and to follow Him. The same Jesus who loved him and understood far greater than you what it means to follow Him--Knows the greater gift He gives-knows eternity. He knows that gift is worthy.
Nothing comes before Him-Nothing. Not my ideas-not my values, my family, my selfish wants, or my life. Because that is the best. He offered that man the Best thing ever possible-to follow Him into eternity.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Geisha,
I meant to thank you for your posts here so far, and I certainly thank you for your last one, for reminding me (despite my opinions here regarding imperfections) of
one of the most loftiest and challenging edicts to mankind to proceed from the lips of Jesus, "Love your enemies".
I hope - if only this idea alone - might eventually circulate more prominently in the mainstream of human thought.
It would be a much better world for it. Much preferable to the sabre-rattlings going on among the different nations now.
Can we learn to love one another before sending this little world into oblivion?
But then I might add also - Christians are not the only ones who have laid down their lives for their faith. And not all martyrs have laid down their lives for the noble
reasons you've described. Far from being "stripped of all pride", martydom can also become something of a "pride" in and of itself, or even worst, a death wish.
Not all the Christian martyrs of old were thrown to the lions - some threw themselves to the ravenous beasts with joy. Might not the desire to rush to one's
heavenly estate be just as easily be motivated out of selfishness? And lest we forget - those which regarded themselves as "martyrs" for their cause,
when they steered those hijacked planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on 9/11?
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Hi,
I know the stories to which you refer. Actually part of my undergrad work. Yes, there was an odd kind of ectasy in these people who fought to throw themselves first to ravenous beast. In the lines waiting for Christians to be brought out to lions--there were arguments over who would go first! Selfish?
I don't know
I do know that those who gives their lives for the Christian faith understand that God is JUST. An unfamilar characteristic of God to many Wayfers-Ex and present.
Most Christians do understand that the glory and reward of heaven is far greater than the moments of earthly suffering. The man who was born blind--for God's glory--his reward is in eternity and never ends. His life here on earth was a blink.
Paul talked about this-To live is Christ-to die is gain. But Paul lived and suffered and served. Because he loved. Other Christians do the same. Many in less than comfortable conditions. Knowing that we are slaves or servants of Christ. That is our calling.
A blip on the Christian radar of a group of ecstatic self-made martyrs in no way exemplifies the heart of a servant of God. There are many examples of things done in His name that chill me. That is a whole other discussion--I could probably out cite you on those instances. The Way alone gives us enough material for a set of encyclopedias.
That is why we are told to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. That is why we follow Jesus-hear His voice and KNOW Him.
As for those who die in vain for a faith such as Islam. I don't think I really even need to point out the differences, but will just say that their deaths-steal from people, kill others and destroy the lives of many. There is a great book I would encourage you to read called Prisoners of Hope. It was written by the two American girls held by the Taliban during the beginning of the Afghanastan war. It really does exemplify the love in a Christian heart for muslims.
As for this world -- this is where we make our decision about Jesus. It is a question that you are asked whether you realize it right now or not. And if Vp ever said
anything true it was this. "You tell me what you think about Jesus Christ who he is and I will tell you how far you will go. . . "
I for one love that you ask these questions. Jesus can stand-up under your scrutiny. I hope you are asking Him these questions as you seek Him out in the gospels.
By the way, I do care for my mom who is older, well not really old, but infirm and as helpless as a kitten. So, I applaud your love and devotion to your parents and the care you gave them. It is in no way easy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Of course all the wonderfulness of martyrdom and the selflessness and sacrifice becomes rather moot if Christianity turns out to be just another religion among the many. Just another collection of folksy wisdom, old-wives tales, a smattering of distorted history, and CARLOADS of credulous superstition.
Certainly there have been selfless martyrs of just about every religious stripe I can think of. Logically, wouldn't it appear that the vast majority of them are simply tragically deluded? (I would vote for "all" but then, I would).
The one question that I can never seem to get a straight answer to from the "believer" crowd is -
What makes The Bible so special? Why is IT true, and NOT all the other holy writs? With all the easily demonstrated errors in it, and it's almost laughable lineage, and all the efforts to distort and amend it's contents, let alone all the outright forgeries, how can one logically cleave to such a work? It's a question that troubled me greatly as a believer. As an unbeliever - not so much...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Hi,
George, just an observation and in no way a judgement, you seem to work very hard at your unbelief.
I am no apologist. I neither have the time nor talent to disabuse you of your narrow tenant and understanding, but I do empathize with it. I would however, direct you to a wonderful book by Frank Turek called I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. I have met the man--he is a hoot. From JERSEY.
If you like, I would gladly send it to you. My treat--if nothing else it will answer those questions you have. He addresses all the items laid out in your post.
I sense you would rather dwell in the land of unbelief for awhile, but the book is yours if you would like. Along with my very best.
Take Care
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
Because after PFAL, Our Father in The Word, didn't have time to "research" the Koran and complete the Koranic Research Required (KRR) to create the verses for PFIB. <_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Christianity is for the most part an exclusionary religion, and meant to be publically proclaimed so others will be won, so their book can be the only right book, just like their way can be the only right way. It is part of the Christian culture--those who don't like or believe in the exculsionary aspect either find a form of Chrisitanity they can work with, or move on to other beliefs, agnostisim ...
People make a choice, based on whatever personal gnossis/ personal spiritual experience or lack thereof that makes the most sense to them. To many Christians, making the Christian choice is the only right decision humankind can make, which makes nonChristians wrong, of course. Chrisitianity ( some types) are in direct competition with other beliefs or lack of beliefs, thus all the motivational and sales type technique, join our team...
Faith can be believed and lived but it can't be proved, IMO.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
Doctor said it was because of what we have been taught. That means if dad was a jew or an arab or just an a$s drinkin at Moes bar that's probably what we would be? But then I took pfal and I found lots of answers to questions I had always been thinking about like gnossis and why some people buy houses with red curtains. I don't know about Christianity being exclusionary, but I do know I've never been invited to a mosque in africa, maybe its because I'm not the same color.
As far as proving my faith in Jesus, I speak to him every night no matter what town I'm in.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.