OK, so it looks like nobody wants to discuss this. How about if I approached it from a different angel?
Lets say for the sake of argument that believing is a law just as twi taught it. Now, lets say you were believing for such-n-such, but you had a WOW Coordinator, a Limb Leader, a Branch Leader and 45 other people saying that you are a dork, and couldn't believe for tying your own shoes.
All I know about believing is that it just is. For instance, I know my Father God will take care of me no matter what. He is my Father, I am His child. I would do no less for my children. My children know (that is believing) that I am their mother and know in all the sum and substance of our relationship what it will produce. I sure as heck know they are my children. There is no method or steps. It just is. Our Father God does no less for and/or with us.
The so called great verse the way used to make a law which never was about laws
Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
this was said to give us the power to get our wants just find a way to make it a need
but Jesus Christ was not talking about fleshly mountains but that which stops you from having complete faith in the things from above
it was never about worldly riches but spiritual riches
Matthew 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.
18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Jesus Christ was using fleshly visions to teach about spiritual visions
others wise if you do not have fruit like the fig tree you will die not to rise
what fruits are we talking about
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
its about love that gets our needs token care not needs and wants
here one verse I wish someone could show me the need
Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
they would come back to shore for Jesus
and what about
Matthew 14:29 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
All I know about believing is that it just is. For instance, I know my Father God will take care of me no matter what. He is my Father, I am His child. I would do no less for my children. My children know (that is believing) that I am their mother and know in all the sum and substance of our relationship what it will produce. I sure as heck know they are my children. There is no method or steps. It just is. Our Father God does no less for and/or with us.
OK, that's what I call believing.
Suppose, though, one of your children were rebellious. Would you not withhold some blessing or even prescribe some disciplinary action?
this was said to give us the power to get our wants just find a way to make it a need
Where did that needs and wants parallel thing come from? I remember trying to do a teaching on that and couldn't find any Scripture to back it up.
I think it was PFAL but asked Raf or WW in private because I sure they know where parallel thing came from but I can not be sure but I think it was PFAL
It was a whacky, childish, and downright dopey idea.
Until we learn to rely on reason we'll forever be victimized by such nonsense...
George, my brother "Dopey" thought the same thing when he was sitting through pfal. Only, afterwards he kept trying to get dates with girls, raise bar stools and talk his way thru job interviews operating this crazy concept! Finally he had to call it quits after the police came by investigating a few "allegations" related to a financial deal he had put his signature on!
Talk about a "horn of bs a plenty", this believing = receiving stuff has got No Limits!
Google some of the people he used to hang out with. Albert Cliffe I believe, who did the "Camps Farthest Out" that VP used to attend was into, a kind of Christian mysticism. I believe VP also got many of his beliefs from Al, Star Daily, Glenn Clark, etc. The old timers he mentioned. Many of these guys were from the Tulsa, OK area. There was a "movement" there, the Tulsa "renegade" preachers. Some years after WWII when America was prospering, they decided they could all make more money if they started their own ministries. VP used to attend these meetings with these guys in Tulsa. Remember when he was in Tulsa when he learned to SIT? It was with these guys.
Gee, I wonder where VP got the idea to do his own ministry?
Then, as the other poster stated, there were the "magic" of thinking big books in the '50s. There were the Dale Carnegie how to win friends and influence people books that VP liked. Also, Kenyon was a big proponent of the "name it and claim it" theology. Kenyon was also a student of Mary Baker Eddy, the lady who started Christian Science - i.e., the "power of the mind" teaching. He was sold in the bookstore.
VP had an interesting hodgepodge of teachings. I'm starting to think, if he found something he liked, he'd pull out a few scriptures to back it up, then teach it.
Kenyon also hung with Madame Blavatsky and the whole theosophy movement.
IMHO it's all part of a recurring "alchemy" movement that's been around forever....trying to find secret formulas to turn the mundane into the transcendent...whether it's lead into gold...thoughts into material....etc.
Platonic dualism is and has ever been appealing for some reason - maybe becasue it speaks to our disappointment with what we find in reality...."as above, so below"....
Also, Kenyon was a big proponent of the "name it and claim it" theology. Kenyon was also a student of Mary Baker Eddy, the lady who started Christian Science
I have found Kenyon to be rather balanced. The problem was that people would take him out of context. I believe that he also renounced Christian Science.
The ugly side of the believing doctrine was when someone had a huge bad problem--and didn't receive the deliverance they were supposed to from their Father God. Gasp! how could that happen?--but it happened all the time! Eventually the fingers point to the hurting person, and a hefty load of condemnation and suspicion grows around.
Also, people with few needs or lots of money, or good tricks for hiding their needs, become extra special spiritual because they believe God and can brag about him.
Lived through that, it was ugly. Kick 'em while their down, loose all compassion, look at outward materialistic things as a 'witness'. Yuck. Glad to be free of it.
The ugly side of the believing doctrine was when someone had a huge bad problem--and didn't receive the deliverance they were supposed to from their Father God. Gasp! how could that happen?--but it happened all the time! Eventually the fingers point to the hurting person, and a hefty load of condemnation and suspicion grows around.
Looks like somebody didn't read the last part of Gal 6:1
Looks like somebody never met anyone who's life was nearly destroyed by being blamed for their horrible experiences by the religious leaders, using their doctrine in the Law of Believing as the Hammer.
You know what killed that little boy?
Have you ever thought how that mother managed to live the rest of her life?
A friend of mine became acutely ill with a very serious disease. Rather than seek the medical treatment he desperately needed he tried to "believe" his way back to health. He died. Then he was blamed for his own death because he shouldn't have "freaked out".
There are thousands of such records here on GSC. It's a dangerous kind of fire to play with and it really is not Biblical in origin. You simply can't change reality by thinking about it, visualizing it, or trying to speak it into an altered state.
Lets say for the sake of argument that believing is a law just as twi taught it.
It isn't, so your hypothetical is going to be skewed if the "LOB" is the metric by which you're measuring the outcome, ie, did you believe, who believed, etc.
PFAL begins, as you know, with a dissertation on John 10:10, a great verse from the gospels.
VPW elaborates on that - that at a point in his life when considering that verse, he looked about him at the community that he lived in and saw that most Christians enjoyed a life much less than abundant and in fact that the non-Christian frequently had a more abundant life than the Christian.
The abundance he refers to is an abundance that can be seen - health, homes, cars, stuff. He wonders why and how can an "unbeliever" have more abundance than the Christian?
Believing and the 5 Things you need to know to receive anything from God follow.
There's a problem there - first of all, if Christ came to give something that's His to give and He's the one giving it, you have to get it from Him. So if there's "abundance" and you don't get it from Him, than whatever you have isn't what He was talking about - the emphasis isn't solely on the "what", it's on the giver of the what.
Secondly if believing is the key to receiving it as PFAL teaches, it stands to reason that the believing has to focus on the one doing the giving - Christ - and not the thing being received. He came so others can have life and life more abundanty - so Christ is the key. I am come that...there's a result, but there's no result without the cause.
So PFAL starts out on a flawed basis, but one that sounds very appealing. It's important to recognize right off though that VPW's premise is based on looking around at the non-believing community and defining "abundance" - they have better jobs, make more money, nicer homes, smarter kids, prettier wives and handsomer husbands - he's flummoxed by it.
Clearly that abundance he points out isn't coming from Christ - these aren't followers of Christ he's comparing himself to.
The Law of Believing works for saint and sinner alike, according to PFAL. This follows perfectly from his premise - the law of believing can produce abundance for anyone regardless of what they think of Christ or God. It's the answer to the problem he starts out with. How does the unbeliever produce "abundance" - he or she "believes". Hmmm. Mmm.
PFAL continues by applying that law into a mix of 5 steps drawn from verses in the bible. As noted, "need and want parallel" isn't stated in any of the verses taught - he brings that point together extemporaneously while reading the verses.
His point is that believing - applied by unbeliever to their own matrix of steps, or to the Christian using his 5 step matrix to receive - is the key.
But either way, that abundance is forthcoming, by "believing".
That's what PFAL teaches - there's more to the Christian abundant life that's taught of course, but sessons 1 and 2 go to great length to present this initial information.
So basically session 1 serves up a contradictory set of conditions and results, and moves on quickly. Well, quickly if you think 33 more hours is quick. It's why so many people end up kind of hung up in space, betwixt logic and fallacy - it's not logical, but it sounds like it should be logical. All the verses are in the bible - but they don't fit together as described.
I see John 10:10, I see the will of a loving God who provides abundant life through Christ. "Believing" is nothing more than an attitude of faith - remember, the most important thing Christ came to provide - salvation, to bring man and God together in peace, isn't produced by what I do, it's produced by what He did and does.
If there's a reasonable logic flowing from that, it's that the same reliance on Christ and what He did and does will produce any "abundance" that's forthcoming from Him. The "things of God" flow from the same qualities of grace, mercy, faith and hope that are what salvation is all about.
If I hit a nail enough times, it'll go into the wood. That's the way PFAL treats "believing" - believe believe believe,learn learn learn, memorize memorize memorize, think think think. My neighbor's dog can do that - he'll bark all day long tiill someone finally lets him in.
The "law of believing" is to the TWI lifestyle what special effects are to the movies - a clever illusion to sell the big picture. For sheer entertainment value it's cost-effective, providing a cheap and easy way to escape from reality... sometimes for years on end. Special effects may vary, depending on one's "believing".
Looks like somebody never met anyone who's life was nearly destroyed by being blamed for their horrible experiences by the religious leaders, using their doctrine in the Law of Believing as the Hammer.
You didn't understand what I was saying. Sometimes I speak in parables. Let me put it another way:
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one IN THE SPIRIT OF MEEKNESS; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
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geisha779
Hi Invisible Dan You said "When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction. Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar." I have
geisha779
Hi Oakspear, Badgering me? I hardly see your discussion as such!! I had better be able to tell you WHY I believe the bible is true, and correct in its declarations of God. That it is His declaration
geisha779
Again--missing my point. I truly understand why. I could once show you scholarship for The Myth of the 6 Million. I bet you, that at one time, if not believed it-----you seriously considered it.
Caveman
OK, so it looks like nobody wants to discuss this. How about if I approached it from a different angel?
Lets say for the sake of argument that believing is a law just as twi taught it. Now, lets say you were believing for such-n-such, but you had a WOW Coordinator, a Limb Leader, a Branch Leader and 45 other people saying that you are a dork, and couldn't believe for tying your own shoes.
Now you have failed in what you believed for.
Whose fault is it?
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kimberly
All I know about believing is that it just is. For instance, I know my Father God will take care of me no matter what. He is my Father, I am His child. I would do no less for my children. My children know (that is believing) that I am their mother and know in all the sum and substance of our relationship what it will produce. I sure as heck know they are my children. There is no method or steps. It just is. Our Father God does no less for and/or with us.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Caveman and kimberly
God loves you my dear friends
The so called great verse the way used to make a law which never was about laws
Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
this was said to give us the power to get our wants just find a way to make it a need
but Jesus Christ was not talking about fleshly mountains but that which stops you from having complete faith in the things from above
it was never about worldly riches but spiritual riches
Matthew 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.
18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Jesus Christ was using fleshly visions to teach about spiritual visions
others wise if you do not have fruit like the fig tree you will die not to rise
what fruits are we talking about
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
its about love that gets our needs token care not needs and wants
here one verse I wish someone could show me the need
Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
they would come back to shore for Jesus
and what about
Matthew 14:29 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
no need so its not about needs at all every time
blows way-ish teaching of law out of the boat
found one but I bet there is more
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...c=15116&hl=
found some more
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...277&hl=laws
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...891&hl=laws
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...280&hl=laws
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Caveman
OK, that's what I call believing.
Suppose, though, one of your children were rebellious. Would you not withhold some blessing or even prescribe some disciplinary action?
Where did that needs and wants parallel thing come from? I remember trying to do a teaching on that and couldn't find any Scripture to back it up.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Caveman
God loves you my dear friend
I think it was PFAL but asked Raf or WW in private because I sure they know where parallel thing came from but I can not be sure but I think it was PFAL
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Caveman
It was definitely in PFAL. What I'm asking is where did vpw get it? I can't find it in the Bible.
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waysider
Here are the scripture references used in PLAF(The Wonder Class):
Philippians 4:19, Matthew 18:19, John 14:13; 15:16, I john 5: 14
Personally, I think he got a good bit of the believing material from Norman Vincent Peale's The Power Of Positive Thinking.
But, I really don't have the ambition right now to check and see if that's where the needs = wants portion originates.
Here's a Wiki if you're interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Vincent_Peale
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George Aar
The whole concept was a common tenet of pop-psychology of the 50s and 60s.
Really a rather quaint - though utterly unsupportable - idea.
If it really was a "LAW" wouldn't that be disappointing to come out of a Monster-Movie and really have your brains eaten by the undead?
It was a whacky, childish, and downright dopey idea. But hey, it's getting recycled today with "The Secret".
Until we learn to rely on reason we'll forever be victimized by such nonsense...
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TheInvisibleDan
I was so looking forward to eventually using my super-psychic believing energy rays to lift up an entire mountain to plunge into the sea.
That was my retirement plan - to make a fantasy island. Next to the Rapture, of course.
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Grumpy
George, my brother "Dopey" thought the same thing when he was sitting through pfal. Only, afterwards he kept trying to get dates with girls, raise bar stools and talk his way thru job interviews operating this crazy concept! Finally he had to call it quits after the police came by investigating a few "allegations" related to a financial deal he had put his signature on!
Talk about a "horn of bs a plenty", this believing = receiving stuff has got No Limits!
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WordWolf
Some links to discussions on this...
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4379
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4582
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=3984
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=9164
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=9971
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=12486
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=13052
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=14891
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=15370
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=15519
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Sunesis
Google some of the people he used to hang out with. Albert Cliffe I believe, who did the "Camps Farthest Out" that VP used to attend was into, a kind of Christian mysticism. I believe VP also got many of his beliefs from Al, Star Daily, Glenn Clark, etc. The old timers he mentioned. Many of these guys were from the Tulsa, OK area. There was a "movement" there, the Tulsa "renegade" preachers. Some years after WWII when America was prospering, they decided they could all make more money if they started their own ministries. VP used to attend these meetings with these guys in Tulsa. Remember when he was in Tulsa when he learned to SIT? It was with these guys.
Gee, I wonder where VP got the idea to do his own ministry?
Then, as the other poster stated, there were the "magic" of thinking big books in the '50s. There were the Dale Carnegie how to win friends and influence people books that VP liked. Also, Kenyon was a big proponent of the "name it and claim it" theology. Kenyon was also a student of Mary Baker Eddy, the lady who started Christian Science - i.e., the "power of the mind" teaching. He was sold in the bookstore.
VP had an interesting hodgepodge of teachings. I'm starting to think, if he found something he liked, he'd pull out a few scriptures to back it up, then teach it.
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Yanagisawa
Kenyon also hung with Madame Blavatsky and the whole theosophy movement.
IMHO it's all part of a recurring "alchemy" movement that's been around forever....trying to find secret formulas to turn the mundane into the transcendent...whether it's lead into gold...thoughts into material....etc.
Platonic dualism is and has ever been appealing for some reason - maybe becasue it speaks to our disappointment with what we find in reality...."as above, so below"....
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Caveman
First, you have to know what's available.
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Caveman
I have found Kenyon to be rather balanced. The problem was that people would take him out of context. I believe that he also renounced Christian Science.
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Bramble
The ugly side of the believing doctrine was when someone had a huge bad problem--and didn't receive the deliverance they were supposed to from their Father God. Gasp! how could that happen?--but it happened all the time! Eventually the fingers point to the hurting person, and a hefty load of condemnation and suspicion grows around.
Also, people with few needs or lots of money, or good tricks for hiding their needs, become extra special spiritual because they believe God and can brag about him.
Lived through that, it was ugly. Kick 'em while their down, loose all compassion, look at outward materialistic things as a 'witness'. Yuck. Glad to be free of it.
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Caveman
Looks like somebody didn't read the last part of Gal 6:1
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Bramble
Looks like somebody never met anyone who's life was nearly destroyed by being blamed for their horrible experiences by the religious leaders, using their doctrine in the Law of Believing as the Hammer.
You know what killed that little boy?
Have you ever thought how that mother managed to live the rest of her life?
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waysider
A friend of mine became acutely ill with a very serious disease. Rather than seek the medical treatment he desperately needed he tried to "believe" his way back to health. He died. Then he was blamed for his own death because he shouldn't have "freaked out".
There are thousands of such records here on GSC. It's a dangerous kind of fire to play with and it really is not Biblical in origin. You simply can't change reality by thinking about it, visualizing it, or trying to speak it into an altered state.
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socks
It isn't, so your hypothetical is going to be skewed if the "LOB" is the metric by which you're measuring the outcome, ie, did you believe, who believed, etc.
PFAL begins, as you know, with a dissertation on John 10:10, a great verse from the gospels.
VPW elaborates on that - that at a point in his life when considering that verse, he looked about him at the community that he lived in and saw that most Christians enjoyed a life much less than abundant and in fact that the non-Christian frequently had a more abundant life than the Christian.
The abundance he refers to is an abundance that can be seen - health, homes, cars, stuff. He wonders why and how can an "unbeliever" have more abundance than the Christian?
Believing and the 5 Things you need to know to receive anything from God follow.
There's a problem there - first of all, if Christ came to give something that's His to give and He's the one giving it, you have to get it from Him. So if there's "abundance" and you don't get it from Him, than whatever you have isn't what He was talking about - the emphasis isn't solely on the "what", it's on the giver of the what.
Secondly if believing is the key to receiving it as PFAL teaches, it stands to reason that the believing has to focus on the one doing the giving - Christ - and not the thing being received. He came so others can have life and life more abundanty - so Christ is the key. I am come that...there's a result, but there's no result without the cause.
So PFAL starts out on a flawed basis, but one that sounds very appealing. It's important to recognize right off though that VPW's premise is based on looking around at the non-believing community and defining "abundance" - they have better jobs, make more money, nicer homes, smarter kids, prettier wives and handsomer husbands - he's flummoxed by it.
Clearly that abundance he points out isn't coming from Christ - these aren't followers of Christ he's comparing himself to.
The Law of Believing works for saint and sinner alike, according to PFAL. This follows perfectly from his premise - the law of believing can produce abundance for anyone regardless of what they think of Christ or God. It's the answer to the problem he starts out with. How does the unbeliever produce "abundance" - he or she "believes". Hmmm. Mmm.
PFAL continues by applying that law into a mix of 5 steps drawn from verses in the bible. As noted, "need and want parallel" isn't stated in any of the verses taught - he brings that point together extemporaneously while reading the verses.
His point is that believing - applied by unbeliever to their own matrix of steps, or to the Christian using his 5 step matrix to receive - is the key.
But either way, that abundance is forthcoming, by "believing".
That's what PFAL teaches - there's more to the Christian abundant life that's taught of course, but sessons 1 and 2 go to great length to present this initial information.
So basically session 1 serves up a contradictory set of conditions and results, and moves on quickly. Well, quickly if you think 33 more hours is quick. It's why so many people end up kind of hung up in space, betwixt logic and fallacy - it's not logical, but it sounds like it should be logical. All the verses are in the bible - but they don't fit together as described.
I see John 10:10, I see the will of a loving God who provides abundant life through Christ. "Believing" is nothing more than an attitude of faith - remember, the most important thing Christ came to provide - salvation, to bring man and God together in peace, isn't produced by what I do, it's produced by what He did and does.
If there's a reasonable logic flowing from that, it's that the same reliance on Christ and what He did and does will produce any "abundance" that's forthcoming from Him. The "things of God" flow from the same qualities of grace, mercy, faith and hope that are what salvation is all about.
If I hit a nail enough times, it'll go into the wood. That's the way PFAL treats "believing" - believe believe believe,learn learn learn, memorize memorize memorize, think think think. My neighbor's dog can do that - he'll bark all day long tiill someone finally lets him in.
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jen-o
mark clarke wrote an excellent article refuting the "law of believing" on his website...
i was really impressed!
perhaps he will show up and post a link...
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T-Bone
The "law of believing" is to the TWI lifestyle what special effects are to the movies - a clever illusion to sell the big picture. For sheer entertainment value it's cost-effective, providing a cheap and easy way to escape from reality... sometimes for years on end. Special effects may vary, depending on one's "believing".
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waysider
Jen-O
Mark includes a link to his site at the bottom of each of his posts.
http://www.godskingdomfirst.org/
Is this the article you are referring to?
http://www.godskingdomfirst.org/KingdomLiv...m#livingbyfaith
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Caveman
You didn't understand what I was saying. Sometimes I speak in parables. Let me put it another way:
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one IN THE SPIRIT OF MEEKNESS; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
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