Then there was the "hot to trot" twenty-something lady rev here, not married.. out of the corps for maybe a year and a half..
In every way unqualified to "counsel" a family in regards to married life, children, etc..
didn't stop her from offering unsolicited advice.
I know of one counselling *session* where she sided with the wife, and hysterically screamed at the man that he was possessed because he would not do EXACTLY as she said..
so young, so inexperienced..
so WRONG. 95 percent of the time.
There may have been exceptions, but often I think they ordained young bullies, or young goons..
those who would tow the company line.
keep the classes running.. keep the money flowing in.. look good and successful in the public eye.I think Groucho's comment about the money on the other thread is dead on here.
I disagree. Let's suppose it started in 1942. How many were involved then in the church, or in the radio program? Let's say they were just fifteen or twenty years old.. involved in the "program". by the time we get to 1972 or so, they would be about. fifty years old.
What happened to vic's old organization? You'd think he'd have a larger base of more qualified, more experienced individuals to choose from.
In der vey, I think age was a handicap though. As far as ordination was concerned.
The only thing I can think, there must have been an exodus of "followers" in the early days. Those who jumped ship when the vicster's product got fruitier and even more fruitier.
Usually, only the young and rather inexperienced can be convinced of buying, and selling new fangled ice makers for the eskimo..
I am aware of a group who exited upon publication of JCING. With prior warning. The main guy said something like.. "if you do something this drastic, they are gonna leave by the droves".
I think that was the victer's plan. Shake the tree.. those who had any age and experience, common sense.. those who wouldn't "get with it", or didn't like the new product would just leave.
then there was Peter W*de.. he left practically right after the filming of pfal I believe.
But the hippies started growing up..
loy called the aging crowd of clergy and "leadership" spiritually jaded, compromised. Why? I think a lot of them got some experience along the way.. some of them started growing a conscience. A lot of them couldn't blindly follow insane mandates any longer..
What was the age of these guys? From what I remember, they were pretty young, with few exceptions.
I can't think of many, or any other reputable places in the world that a far less than college educated, twenty something year old not even half way around the block sometimes single person would receive this kind of "honor" in any kind of church or organization.
What happened to the older crowd who helped support the vicster in the early days? Didn't he have anybody more qualified and experienced around to choose from?
I can only think of a few older clergy. M*l Ge*orge, Ge*rge J*ss, a few others.
I knew one guy who was just out of the corps here, less than a year. First assignment.. I thought you've gotta be kidding.. what's he done? His dad was rather wealthy. That's the only qualification I can see being fulfilled for ordination. He couldn't really teach well.. wasn't even married.. no kids, no real experience in life. My take on it, he was almost ashamed to let people know he was a rev.
Ham,
For what it's worth, M*l Ge*orge, Ge*rge J*ss were't way clergy (at least not as far as I know). BOT weren't either (you know, Ermal, Harry, Don, Howard). You ask a good question, where did all of the early followers dissappear to? Of course, at twi, those that left didn't get much of a chance to explain or say any goodbyes. So that really is a vaccuum. There only a few families from those early years that stuck around.
There are probably some way clergy here at gsc that could add alot of insight to your topic. I agree that age should have been more of a factor. For my time and for what I saw at hq, becoming a way clergy wasn't necessarily revelation. Some folks married into it (by becoming a spouse to an earlier corps grad); for some folks it was because of an assignment (there were positions that carried a rev title with it); for some folks --am I being too bold to write this?-- becoming a rev was a result of who they knew. Being 'gifted' was not necessarily a part of it. Like you've mentioned, some rev's had no business doing it at all. On the other hand, some really really really 'gifted' folks were not revs either. I forget the title of the guy that I worked for, he was a rev (... trustee cabinet - that was it); he talked to me once about it (I passed) and he wanted me to understand that they didn't want too many revs at hq.
Some way revs still cling to that title. I think it's bogus. I cringe when I see it. No offence intended to those who think that their covenant of salt was valid, but the whole twi thang was tainted and skanky. The rev part too. Paraphrasing Don'tWorryBeHappy ... you gotta start all over from the beginning, don't rebuild any of it.
It seems that Vic didn't do real well in getting his peers to fall for his baloney...they probably knew too much about his personal life...
Vic excelled in preying on the young ones...the naive and the idealistic...the kids who knew next to nothing about life or Christianity...he swooped em up and ordained the ones who could further his agenda (make money)...
...and, although I cannot prove it, I have heard from numerous sources that the females that he ordained in the early years (early 70's)...got their "gift ministries" in the back of the motorcoach and Vic was rewarding them for their service.
For what it's worth, M*l Ge*orge, Ge*rge J*ss were't way clergy (at least not as far as I know).
Mal George was a TWI rev. - I don't think George Jess was
BOT weren't either (you know, Ermal, Harry, Don, Howard).
You know, I knew that, but never really thought about it. Was ordination a shiny toy dangled in front of young folks' eyes to make them feel important?
I recall seeing a picture of someone (B.G. Leonard maybe?) laying hands on Don W and ordaining him when he was still a teenager (Don, not Leonard), but he never used the title to my knowledge.
I remember Howard Allan saying that he didn't want to be ordained "because he didn't want to bury people", i.e. preside over funerals. I thought when I first heard it that it made very little sense.
Some folks married into it (by becoming a spouse to an earlier corps grad);
Are you aware of any specific situations where this happened? I can't think of any examples of people who were ordained because their spouse was. In fact I can think of only a few instances when both husband and wife were ordained: the Greenes and the Lallys.
for some folks it was because of an assignment (there were positions that carried a rev title with it);
I think that there was an expectation that region coordinators and above were to be clergy, although this wasn't always the case. In 1990 Bill Sage was a region coordinator before he was ordained. Joe Coulter was on the President's cabinet for years before finally letting Martindale slap the "reverend" title on him. I think it was more the case that the pool of candidates for these higher positions came from the clergy ranks.
Looking back, there was no clear-cut difference between clergy and non-clergy. As was stated, non-clergy held positions at the top of the pyramid and clergy sometimes were twig coordinators or held no titles whatsoever.
I guess that you're asking me for names of way clergy ordained in the variety that I posted earlier?
Other people here will know lots more about this than I do, and I'm not really trying to remember or even keep track of this stuff. So I'm not going to be any kind of authority for ya.
If Don Wierwille was a way rev, ok, I can't say. He was always Don to me.
"Some folks married into it (by becoming a spouse to an earlier corps grad)" When I wrote that as a part of my last post, I was thinking specifically of M*nty H*bbs. Others also come to mind, for example the recently widowed St*ve L*wder; and for that matter, one of the names that you mentioned in your post: T*m L*lly. Any of these guys may have found it on their own... who am I to say? Tom (& M*ke F*rt) spent their interium corps year at hq working together, often working with me. These two chatted alot about their future ministry plans and goals, getting ordained was high on their list. I will say that M*ke talked (joked?) about his marriage selection maybe helping him there.
I think that there were assignments that carried a rev title, and not all of them 'on the field' ... at hq and other root locales, being a department coordinator could do it. You mentioned J*e C*ulter, maybe he wasn't, but - when I met him in 76 there in his av rm at the back of the brc (and for what it's worth, I liked him ) my memory has the rev being on his name tag even then.
The names don't matter so much, IMO.
But how vp went about it, or why, and that the standard qualifying criteria seemed to vary so much....... what was he thinkin?
I suspect you are correct about his peers Groucho. LindaZ will know exactly who I am talking about when I refer to a couple who got involved in the 50's. They never referred to vpw as Dr or "the Dr" - referred to him as Wierwille or Vic - they had no use for worship of him and I think never did quite believe in all of the "not since the 1st century church" crap. Ran their own gig in their house before TWI and ran it after vic dropped. When the goofball from OK came in they both smirked - the husband said to me - "<name omitted> and I have seen 'em come and seen 'em go - we'll just see how long this young whippersnapper lasts"
Of the young ones vic excelled at preying on - I think it was a very "cleverly" designed filter system. Not all of the young clergy were corrupt - in fact I'd wager - from personal experience - to say a good portion were not - they were allowed to stay in place AS LONG AS THEY MADE MONEY FOR TWI - whether knowingly or ignorantly believing in pushing TWI. The other group - which I think is smaller - although in no way limited to "top management" - saw that by accommodating vic's perversions they not only got their physical gratifications (eg sex, unlimited debauchery, etc) but they also got top promotions...and even there we know of one exception on this site.
This is not an apologist post for TWI nor for the many clergy who debased and destroyed the lives of many - criminals all of them - It is more an agreement with you about vic's peers not kowtowing and vic's ability to screw the minds of young impressionistic "children" some of which he later turned into butchers of hearts and souls with their willing acceptance of it.
It seems that Vic didn't do real well in getting his peers to fall for his baloney...they probably knew too much about his personal life...
Vic excelled in preying on the young ones...the naive and the idealistic...the kids who knew next to nothing about life or Christianity...he swooped em up and ordained the ones who could further his agenda (make money)...
...and, although I cannot prove it, I have heard from numerous sources that the females that he ordained in the early years (early 70's)...got their "gift ministries" in the back of the motorcoach and Vic was rewarding them for their service.
I can't think of many, or any other reputable places in the world that a far less than college educated, twenty something year old not even half way around the block sometimes single person would receive this kind of "honor" in any kind of church or organization.
Mormon males can be ordained "elders" at age 18. They can heal the sick, run meetings, bless the sacrament and go on missions.
As to whether that counts as "reputable", I'll leave that up to you. Hope templelady isn't lurking
I suspect you are correct about his peers Groucho. LindaZ will know exactly who I am talking about when I refer to a couple who got involved in the 50's. They never referred to vpw as Dr or "the Dr" - referred to him as Wierwille or Vic - they had no use for worship of him and I think never did quite believe in all of the "not since the 1st century church" crap. Ran their own gig in their house before TWI and ran it after vic dropped. When the goofball from OK came in they both smirked - the husband said to me - "<name omitted> and I have seen 'em come and seen 'em go - we'll just see how long this young whippersnapper lasts"
You're absolutely right about that couple, RumRunner. They never bowed down to VP or lauded him as the MOG as far as I know, even though they'd been around since the Van Wert days. They were great people, great believers, and as a result they had a Twig that was the size of most branches.
Ham, you raise a point that I think is key in what was wrong with twi: VPW gave young, inexperienced people way too much responsibility in dealing with people in the fellowships. I first noticed this when the 6th Corps, the first really large Corps group, started hitting the field. Don't get me wrong. I loved the enthusiasm of a lot of the young Corps back then, but too many of them were in way over their heads. The Way Corps was another cash cow for twi, and the more people who could be run through the program, the more the cash rolled in.
We had one of those young 6th Corps guys come to oversee the Cleveland branch. I don't remember if it was his interim year or if he'd graduated. He was so arrogant and tried to be so controlling that I stopped going to fellowship and refused to have anything to do with twi for about a year. He would try to tell people in their 40s and 50s and 60s how to raise their children and run their lives. I'm surprised anyone stuck around under his regime.
It wasn't entirely an age thing, though. In general, VPW had a real knack for putting the wrong people in positions of power at HQ, for example. Going on staff was the most severe culture shock I ever experienced while in twi. Seeing some of the so-called "pillars of the church" in action on a day-to-day basis was a real eye opener, and ultimately paved the way for me to make my exit. Of course some of the "old-timers" were wonderful, and my life was enriched for knowing them and working with them. But some of them....whew, they wouldn't have made it in the real world, and some of them had no business supervising anything more than a paper clip.
Heh - and as I recall Linda - they never even called it twig... just referred to it as "the Sunday meetin'" often precluded by said wife showing off a pair of squirrel or rabbit skins that the eldest of her sons had "skun out" for dinner.
Those are the folks you could truly regale people on this site with about their approach to Christianity as a part - a part - of life over all.
You're absolutely right about that couple, RumRunner. They never bowed down to VP or lauded him as the MOG as far as I know, even though they'd been around since the Van Wert days. They were great people, great believers, and as a result they had a Twig that was the size of most branches.
I remember years ago vp had a personal secretary who I think was one of the old timers. Her name was Donna Randall and she was really sweet. She taught a class about using research materials (one of the few classes that I actually found useful).
She suddenly resigned with no warning or anouncement or anything. She was just there one day and then she was gone. vp gave no explanation, just said she quit. I thought even back then that she saw or heard something that she knew was wrong and left. I think she was married too. I don't remember what her husband did but I think it had to do with farming.
I remember years ago vp had a personal secretary who I think was one of the old timers. ....
She suddenly resigned with no warning or anouncement or anything. She was just there one day and then she was gone. vp gave no explanation, just said she quit. I thought even back then that she saw or heard something that she knew was wrong and left. ...
Another personal secretary later saw things she knew were very wrong ... another old timer ... she was crying once talking to me, but didn't quite give details ... as I recall she said vp felt bad or knew it was wrong .. she said Chris and her supported each other in dealing with the whole situation.
I now have much less doubt about exactly what she was referring to ... but she never left ... she is still there I think ... lifer ... :(
I remember that class, It was called Keys To Research. Donna came to our area to teach it live. She introduced herself in the first session and cited her credentials. I don't recall what they were but they were from outside of TWI. Personally, I did not care for the class but that is not a refection on Donna. It seemed to me like she was trying to cover so much ground in one weekend, it was futile. I remember wondering, at the time, why TWI didn't have more classes of this nature. It was, after all, purporting itself to be a "research ministry". I never even knew she left until I read it here in this thread.
the reason twi didn't have more research-type classes is because twi didn't really want people researching the bible for themselves... twi just wanted to spoon-feed folks vpw's "research" (aka twi-approved doctrine)
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Ham
Then there was the "hot to trot" twenty-something lady rev here, not married.. out of the corps for maybe a year and a half..
In every way unqualified to "counsel" a family in regards to married life, children, etc..
didn't stop her from offering unsolicited advice.
I know of one counselling *session* where she sided with the wife, and hysterically screamed at the man that he was possessed because he would not do EXACTLY as she said..
so young, so inexperienced..
so WRONG. 95 percent of the time.
There may have been exceptions, but often I think they ordained young bullies, or young goons..
those who would tow the company line.
keep the classes running.. keep the money flowing in.. look good and successful in the public eye.I think Groucho's comment about the money on the other thread is dead on here.
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Ham
"Well, it was a young organization."
I disagree. Let's suppose it started in 1942. How many were involved then in the church, or in the radio program? Let's say they were just fifteen or twenty years old.. involved in the "program". by the time we get to 1972 or so, they would be about. fifty years old.
What happened to vic's old organization? You'd think he'd have a larger base of more qualified, more experienced individuals to choose from.
Instead, he has a mere handful.
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waysider
This is where the revelation part (supposedly) came into play.
God (supposedly) gave the person a gift ministry.
The ordination ceremony was merely a formality to publicly recognize the gift.
The person was prophesied over at the ceremony. That gave it all an apparent certification of authenticity.
Can't argue with it. Gawd gives the gifts to whom He sees fit, regardless of age, dontchaknow? <_<
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Ham
In der vey, I think age was a handicap though. As far as ordination was concerned.
The only thing I can think, there must have been an exodus of "followers" in the early days. Those who jumped ship when the vicster's product got fruitier and even more fruitier.
Usually, only the young and rather inexperienced can be convinced of buying, and selling new fangled ice makers for the eskimo..
I am aware of a group who exited upon publication of JCING. With prior warning. The main guy said something like.. "if you do something this drastic, they are gonna leave by the droves".
I think that was the victer's plan. Shake the tree.. those who had any age and experience, common sense.. those who wouldn't "get with it", or didn't like the new product would just leave.
then there was Peter W*de.. he left practically right after the filming of pfal I believe.
But the hippies started growing up..
loy called the aging crowd of clergy and "leadership" spiritually jaded, compromised. Why? I think a lot of them got some experience along the way.. some of them started growing a conscience. A lot of them couldn't blindly follow insane mandates any longer..
time for a younger crowd again..
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wing
Ham,
For what it's worth, M*l Ge*orge, Ge*rge J*ss were't way clergy (at least not as far as I know). BOT weren't either (you know, Ermal, Harry, Don, Howard). You ask a good question, where did all of the early followers dissappear to? Of course, at twi, those that left didn't get much of a chance to explain or say any goodbyes. So that really is a vaccuum. There only a few families from those early years that stuck around.
There are probably some way clergy here at gsc that could add alot of insight to your topic. I agree that age should have been more of a factor. For my time and for what I saw at hq, becoming a way clergy wasn't necessarily revelation. Some folks married into it (by becoming a spouse to an earlier corps grad); for some folks it was because of an assignment (there were positions that carried a rev title with it); for some folks --am I being too bold to write this?-- becoming a rev was a result of who they knew. Being 'gifted' was not necessarily a part of it. Like you've mentioned, some rev's had no business doing it at all. On the other hand, some really really really 'gifted' folks were not revs either. I forget the title of the guy that I worked for, he was a rev (... trustee cabinet - that was it); he talked to me once about it (I passed) and he wanted me to understand that they didn't want too many revs at hq.
Some way revs still cling to that title. I think it's bogus. I cringe when I see it. No offence intended to those who think that their covenant of salt was valid, but the whole twi thang was tainted and skanky. The rev part too. Paraphrasing Don'tWorryBeHappy ... you gotta start all over from the beginning, don't rebuild any of it.
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sky watcher
IMO, the term "reverand" means one who is revered. There is only one man who deserves reverance and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.
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jen-o
i agree, skywatcher... :)
and thank you for your post, wing... :)
peace,
jen-o
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WordWolf
1 Timothy 3
"1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil."
I Timothy 3
" 1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."
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Ham
I think that's the whole point ww.
"Junior" on my other thread thinks that it was a wonderous place, that a *few* bad apples ruined for the vicster..
when in reality, it was perhaps hundreds of otherwise well-meaning human beings corrupted by power and position given to them long before it was due..
those elevated to the top were the worst.
I don't think ninety five percent of the younger crowd can handle that kind of position and authority without getting really corrupt..
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Ham
but what happened to the older crowd? Did the vicster run them off with one bizarro doctrine and conspiracy theory after another?
I used to have a little book from the bookstore by Ra*hel W*an.. I think her name was. What happened to her?
Then there was R*ss Tr*cey.. an older gentleman, had more than a few legitimate credentials, and experience as well.. where'd he go?
Of course Peter W*de was gone in a flash.. right after filming of the *wonder class*..
maybe the vicster needed a few young, hungry for power goon types who would accept the "assignment"..
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GrouchoMarxJr
It seems that Vic didn't do real well in getting his peers to fall for his baloney...they probably knew too much about his personal life...
Vic excelled in preying on the young ones...the naive and the idealistic...the kids who knew next to nothing about life or Christianity...he swooped em up and ordained the ones who could further his agenda (make money)...
...and, although I cannot prove it, I have heard from numerous sources that the females that he ordained in the early years (early 70's)...got their "gift ministries" in the back of the motorcoach and Vic was rewarding them for their service.
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Oakspear
I recall seeing a picture of someone (B.G. Leonard maybe?) laying hands on Don W and ordaining him when he was still a teenager (Don, not Leonard), but he never used the title to my knowledge.
I remember Howard Allan saying that he didn't want to be ordained "because he didn't want to bury people", i.e. preside over funerals. I thought when I first heard it that it made very little sense.
Are you aware of any specific situations where this happened? I can't think of any examples of people who were ordained because their spouse was. In fact I can think of only a few instances when both husband and wife were ordained: the Greenes and the Lallys. I think that there was an expectation that region coordinators and above were to be clergy, although this wasn't always the case. In 1990 Bill Sage was a region coordinator before he was ordained. Joe Coulter was on the President's cabinet for years before finally letting Martindale slap the "reverend" title on him. I think it was more the case that the pool of candidates for these higher positions came from the clergy ranks.Looking back, there was no clear-cut difference between clergy and non-clergy. As was stated, non-clergy held positions at the top of the pyramid and clergy sometimes were twig coordinators or held no titles whatsoever.
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wing
Hi Oakspear,
I guess that you're asking me for names of way clergy ordained in the variety that I posted earlier?
Other people here will know lots more about this than I do, and I'm not really trying to remember or even keep track of this stuff. So I'm not going to be any kind of authority for ya.
If Don Wierwille was a way rev, ok, I can't say. He was always Don to me.
"Some folks married into it (by becoming a spouse to an earlier corps grad)" When I wrote that as a part of my last post, I was thinking specifically of M*nty H*bbs. Others also come to mind, for example the recently widowed St*ve L*wder; and for that matter, one of the names that you mentioned in your post: T*m L*lly. Any of these guys may have found it on their own... who am I to say? Tom (& M*ke F*rt) spent their interium corps year at hq working together, often working with me. These two chatted alot about their future ministry plans and goals, getting ordained was high on their list. I will say that M*ke talked (joked?) about his marriage selection maybe helping him there.
I think that there were assignments that carried a rev title, and not all of them 'on the field' ... at hq and other root locales, being a department coordinator could do it. You mentioned J*e C*ulter, maybe he wasn't, but - when I met him in 76 there in his av rm at the back of the brc (and for what it's worth, I liked him ) my memory has the rev being on his name tag even then.
The names don't matter so much, IMO.
But how vp went about it, or why, and that the standard qualifying criteria seemed to vary so much....... what was he thinkin?
And by "he", I mean vp.
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Oakspear
I wasn't so much looking for names, just asking if you were thinking of specifics or just an impression. You answered my question. Thanks.
Don wasn't a Way rev, his ordination was from someone outside of TWI, but he never to my knowledge used the title.
I'm sure about C0ulter, he wasn't ordained until the 90's.
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RumRunner
I suspect you are correct about his peers Groucho. LindaZ will know exactly who I am talking about when I refer to a couple who got involved in the 50's. They never referred to vpw as Dr or "the Dr" - referred to him as Wierwille or Vic - they had no use for worship of him and I think never did quite believe in all of the "not since the 1st century church" crap. Ran their own gig in their house before TWI and ran it after vic dropped. When the goofball from OK came in they both smirked - the husband said to me - "<name omitted> and I have seen 'em come and seen 'em go - we'll just see how long this young whippersnapper lasts"
Of the young ones vic excelled at preying on - I think it was a very "cleverly" designed filter system. Not all of the young clergy were corrupt - in fact I'd wager - from personal experience - to say a good portion were not - they were allowed to stay in place AS LONG AS THEY MADE MONEY FOR TWI - whether knowingly or ignorantly believing in pushing TWI. The other group - which I think is smaller - although in no way limited to "top management" - saw that by accommodating vic's perversions they not only got their physical gratifications (eg sex, unlimited debauchery, etc) but they also got top promotions...and even there we know of one exception on this site.
This is not an apologist post for TWI nor for the many clergy who debased and destroyed the lives of many - criminals all of them - It is more an agreement with you about vic's peers not kowtowing and vic's ability to screw the minds of young impressionistic "children" some of which he later turned into butchers of hearts and souls with their willing acceptance of it.
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Jim
Mormon males can be ordained "elders" at age 18. They can heal the sick, run meetings, bless the sacrament and go on missions.
As to whether that counts as "reputable", I'll leave that up to you. Hope templelady isn't lurking
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Linda Z
You're absolutely right about that couple, RumRunner. They never bowed down to VP or lauded him as the MOG as far as I know, even though they'd been around since the Van Wert days. They were great people, great believers, and as a result they had a Twig that was the size of most branches.
Ham, you raise a point that I think is key in what was wrong with twi: VPW gave young, inexperienced people way too much responsibility in dealing with people in the fellowships. I first noticed this when the 6th Corps, the first really large Corps group, started hitting the field. Don't get me wrong. I loved the enthusiasm of a lot of the young Corps back then, but too many of them were in way over their heads. The Way Corps was another cash cow for twi, and the more people who could be run through the program, the more the cash rolled in.
We had one of those young 6th Corps guys come to oversee the Cleveland branch. I don't remember if it was his interim year or if he'd graduated. He was so arrogant and tried to be so controlling that I stopped going to fellowship and refused to have anything to do with twi for about a year. He would try to tell people in their 40s and 50s and 60s how to raise their children and run their lives. I'm surprised anyone stuck around under his regime.
It wasn't entirely an age thing, though. In general, VPW had a real knack for putting the wrong people in positions of power at HQ, for example. Going on staff was the most severe culture shock I ever experienced while in twi. Seeing some of the so-called "pillars of the church" in action on a day-to-day basis was a real eye opener, and ultimately paved the way for me to make my exit. Of course some of the "old-timers" were wonderful, and my life was enriched for knowing them and working with them. But some of them....whew, they wouldn't have made it in the real world, and some of them had no business supervising anything more than a paper clip.
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RumRunner
Heh - and as I recall Linda - they never even called it twig... just referred to it as "the Sunday meetin'" often precluded by said wife showing off a pair of squirrel or rabbit skins that the eldest of her sons had "skun out" for dinner.
Those are the folks you could truly regale people on this site with about their approach to Christianity as a part - a part - of life over all.
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sky watcher
I remember years ago vp had a personal secretary who I think was one of the old timers. Her name was Donna Randall and she was really sweet. She taught a class about using research materials (one of the few classes that I actually found useful).
She suddenly resigned with no warning or anouncement or anything. She was just there one day and then she was gone. vp gave no explanation, just said she quit. I thought even back then that she saw or heard something that she knew was wrong and left. I think she was married too. I don't remember what her husband did but I think it had to do with farming.
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Ham
I took her class too.
she was already in her fifties (I think) back in the late 1970's.. maybe I'm mistaken..
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rhino
Another personal secretary later saw things she knew were very wrong ... another old timer ... she was crying once talking to me, but didn't quite give details ... as I recall she said vp felt bad or knew it was wrong .. she said Chris and her supported each other in dealing with the whole situation.
I now have much less doubt about exactly what she was referring to ... but she never left ... she is still there I think ... lifer ... :(
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waysider
I remember that class, It was called Keys To Research. Donna came to our area to teach it live. She introduced herself in the first session and cited her credentials. I don't recall what they were but they were from outside of TWI. Personally, I did not care for the class but that is not a refection on Donna. It seemed to me like she was trying to cover so much ground in one weekend, it was futile. I remember wondering, at the time, why TWI didn't have more classes of this nature. It was, after all, purporting itself to be a "research ministry". I never even knew she left until I read it here in this thread.
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excathedra
ps. and i'm thinking of adding this to the clergy thread(s)
any leader or higher-up or rev. or butcher baker candlestick maker who didn't start a jerkoffshoot is okay in my book
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jen-o
hi waysider!
the reason twi didn't have more research-type classes is because twi didn't really want people researching the bible for themselves... twi just wanted to spoon-feed folks vpw's "research" (aka twi-approved doctrine)
peace,
jen-o
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