And I think the people who have shared how Vic sought out those who could benefit HIM in some way (either sexually or monitarily, or because they had some influence or skill he thought he could hijack for twi) are exposing the true core of the man. He was a con artist; a really, reallly good one. And that kind of person is selfish to the extreme (to the end that it never even occurs to them that others don't also want what is best for THEM at all times), and they are a master at being whatever they need to be to get what they want. Period. In my opinion, any goodness or kindness VP showed to others was simply one more tool in his toolbox; just another means to an end that benefitted himself.
Well, he did call himself "The Teacher". He was just teaching more than we all realized when we first took PFAL.
Naturally he would want to promote ("ordain") those who followed him and his teachings most closely. And who helped him to enjoy the bright future he envisaged.
...Could it be that some others were ordained simply as "cover" for the ones who followed his practices most closely?
(PS - A bit tongue in cheek that; there were some great folks who were ordained.)
DWBH, I know how opportunistic VPW was and saw him use people's prominence and wealth and influence to his and twi's advantage often. I totally get what you're saying.
Here's the thing, though. My parents were neither wealthy nor influential. Dad was a regular, great guy (still is at age 88). He was a cabinet maker by trade, and Mom was a housewife. I can't think of a single thing VPW had to gain by being nice to them or to me or to my son or to the rest of the family. If it was money....hahahahaaha. He didn't get that. If it was just another few butts to sit in these uncomfortable chairs at the ROA, well, he did get that.
I'm not among the VP apologists around here. I have no problem recognizing (and detesting) the evil thiings he did to some people. However, I respectfully disagree if you're saying he never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it. I love you and I respect you immensely. But since Greasespot is a place where all opinions are welcomed, I guess I'm allowed mine. :)
I certainly recognize that I could be wrong. But I figure the One who's really keeping score never misses a trick.
When vp came through wv on my interim year, we met briefly for breakfast, but we talked about getting older people to stay with the ministry, instead of just all the youngsters. We spoke of a few, and he was very interested in the subject.
It seems maybe he wanted some besides "kids' to give him an air of legitimacy, perhaps.
So any adults would have helped his image ... maybe.
I'm going to repeat something I posted on another thread because I think it is pertinent to understanding VP, and why so many of us joined twi:
I know someone who fell in love, got married, and tied up her finances very quickly with a guy she thought was everything she was looking for, only to find out there wasn't a single thing he had told her about himself that had been the truth!! (not his age, his background, work history, financial history, family ties... nothing) In the time it took her to figure that out, he'd eaten through her life savings and put her deeply into debt. She divorced him. But she can't get over him. Why not? Because she can't let go of what he was like in the beginning. He was kind, caring, thoughtful, generous... and she keeps saying she doesn't understand where that man went? She really cannot bring herself to face the fact that this was just a mask hiding the real person inside -- the selfish, callous, mean, violent man she saw after they were married. She keeps looking for a REASON for the change, and will not admit that no change happened, just a lifting of the mask.
wow, highway, that's an excellent analogy!
thanks for posting this!
However, I respectfully disagree if you're saying he never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it.
hmmm... do false prophets/false teachers really do any acts of kindness without them being attached to some covetous expectation...
i really don't think so...
but if they did, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack...
hiya lindaZ!........always nice to see your avatar and posts around these forums!
allow me a short quote from your last post: "I'm not among the VP apologists around here. I have no problem recognizing (and detesting) the evil thiings he did to some people. However, I respectfully disagree if you're saying he never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it. I love you and I respect you immensely. But since Greasespot is a place where all opinions are welcomed, I guess I'm allowed mine. :) "
you most certainly are entitled to your opininion, and to post it whenever and wherever you want........i've never known your posts to be contentious, or pugnacious.........they're usually well thought out and well written, imho...........i also love and respect you, so your opinions are always interesting to me, whether we happen to agree or not.......so, thanks for posting the above........differing opinions always make for good discussion, and promote critical thinking, of which i am a big fan.
i am not saying that vic "never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it.".........i was not privvy to all the "acts of kindness" vic may have performed during his life and "ministry", so if i did make a statement like that i would be wrong........my response to ex10 was based on previous conversations with her regarding the specifics of her personal circumstances in her experiences with vic and his dealings with her and her family.........and, the details i shared regarding the dinners with my folks in 1975 are also specific to the personal circumstances surrounding his dealings with me and my folks.........and, they reflect my opinions concerning what his underlying motivations may have been........hopefully i'm not presumptuous enough to insist that my opinions of what vic's motives may have been in his dealings with the two specific families i mentioned must be broadened to apply to every "act of kindness" he ever performed..........that is not what i am saying, nor do i mean to imply the same either...........however, i do believe that such "acts" were less often done with purely philanthropic motives than they were to procure some kind of personal gain for vic himself........and this became more the rule than the exception, especially as the size of twi's membership and of its various programs like the corps and wow programs grew...............
the reasons for my sharing what i did, were to demonstrate that vic's "ministry" was more of a slick, religious con than it was a genuine "christian ministry", imho............at least in my personal dealings and observations with him.......observations which, perhaps you agree with in those specific situations i mention, though they seem to differ from your own specific experiences with your family...........but, i will reiterate that, far more than not, imo, vic's personal pathologies and perversions
clouded his actions with self-serving, immoral, and dysfunctional motivations, and that many times, his "acts of kindness" were not in fact, "acts of kindness" at all, but merely the outward signs of his profound, personality disorders disguised with "christian", or biblical verbiage..............and, as far as just numbers go, imo, there were far more acts of psychoemotional terrorism committed towards "his" people by him, than "acts of kindness".........hope that clarifies my opinion on this for you................thanks for posting yours.............with respect backatchya...................peace.
Two quick thoughts, based on my own personal dealings with a TWI believer who is a narcissist (I think the label fits Wierwille also):
The reason we are so easily fooled by a narcissist is that narcissists have to fool themselves. Narcissists sometimes do good things (usually when it doesn't take a lot of effort) in order to convince themselves that they are good, and deserve the perks they demand from others.
I'm not among the VP apologists around here. I have no problem recognizing (and detesting) the evil thiings he did to some people. However, I respectfully disagree if you're saying he never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it. I love you and I respect you immensely. But since Greasespot is a place where all opinions are welcomed, I guess I'm allowed mine. :)
Linda Z, I love your opinions!! Keep 'em coming!!
Actully, I think it was my post that pretty much threw Vic on the fire. But I wasn't trying to say he never did anything nice without expecting something in return. It's more like, I don't believe he did something nice without there being something in it for him, even if that "something" was just a personal ego-stroke. It's clear that VP took a liking to certain people and their families and treated them differently than he treated most folks. But his kindnesses were "willy-nilly" and not at all consistent. They don't reflect (IMHO) the true being of the man.
Linda Z - love your posts! Don't stop. I know, especially with early corps, there were many nice things he did for his "keeds." I know one of them, he paid to have his teeth fixed - he was a young guy and they were pretty bad. There are good things he did. Narcissists and sociopaths can also be magnanimous - of which VP certainly could be. As the above-poster said, it boosts their image of themselves. My late step mother was a classic narcissist. She could be very giving - but, you owed her down the road - after all she had done for you. I imagine there was a bit of that with VP.
DWBH - I have a question for you. When did you start to suspect VP wasn't all he made himself out to be? When did you start having your doubts? In, out, with hindsight? What was the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak, when you thought - this guy's a perv or conman? Just curious, you don't have to answer. But I find it interesting to hear people's perspectives who were close to him.
The trait of "being nice to people" with vp in my opinion you have to look at within the overall perspective of his life and what he was trying to accomplish. He was trained in school as a pastor. He did know the duties involved there, with meeting with people and caring for them. He did this for families when many other men went off to fight in WW2. During the time most of us knew him, he was expanding his organization he founded into a worldwide organization. As such, and as common to founding CEO's of many companies, the "sales" mode is always on, as is communicating vision. Can you separate a man from that vision or that mode? It's hard. Were the motives "pure"? Well, within the confines of his vision, probably so. Did he genuinely care for people and show it beyond what they could do for him to help establish his vision? That's hard to determine, and we may never have an answer. Certainly he was a man consumed by his vision, so everything he did and everyone he interacted with was framed by that. The vision itself is what I question. If it was genuine and God-inspired, as opposed to egocentric and megalomaniac-like, why would you sexually abuse people, make political power plays, take the glory yourself, and act like an overall abusive jerk? The overall fruit of his life, and that of those who followed in his chief position footsteps is one of abuse, control, perversion of scriptures, using people to please himself.
So the real crux of it from my opinion is that the fruit defines the man. And you can't separate a person from the fruit they produce.
I like to bring up one "upstanding citizen"- who was a member of the Jaycees,
a local pillar of his community, got a high-level security clearance from the Secret Service,
and was known locally for throwing block parties where he entertained local children as a clown.
Sounds like a nice guy, right?
"To everyone who met him, John Wayne Gacy seemed a likable and affable man. He was widely respected in the community, charming and easy to get along with. He was a good Catholic and sharp businessman who, when not running his construction company was active in the Jaycees and was also a Democratic Party precinct captain, when he had his photo taken with then First Lady, Rosalynn Carter. He also spent much of his free time hosting elaborate street parties for his friends and neighbors, serving in community groups and entertaining children as "Pogo the Clown". He was a generous, hard working, friendly, devoted family man, everyone knew that -- but that was the side of John Wayne Gacy that he allowed people to see.
Underneath the smiling mask of the clown was the face of depraved fiend."
For those who don't know the kind of monster Gacy was...
"John Wayne Gacy (March 17, 1942 – May 10, 1994) also known as The Killer Clown, was an American serial killer.
He was convicted and later executed for the rape and murder of 33 boys and young men between 1972 and his arrest in 1978, 27 of whom he buried in a crawl space under the floor of his house, while others were found in nearby rivers. He became notorious as the "Killer Clown" because of the many block parties he threw for his friends and neighbors, entertaining children in a clown suit and makeup, under the name of "Pogo the Clown." He was also in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest sentence imposed on a mass murderer; he was given 21 consecutive life sentences and 12 death sentences."
So, it would not surprise me that vpw could seem like a nice guy, a generous guy, friendly, even a pillar of the community.
Before someone jumps on WordWolf for comparing Wierwille to Gacy...
He is not saying that Wierwille was a serial killer, rapist or child molestor or even a clown.
The point is that someone doing "nice" things doesn't mean that he didn't do the evil things as well. That a good exterior sometimes hides a rotten interior.
Wouldn't have taken it as such Oakspear - well maybe the rapist part...
The comparison of evil lurking behind the facade of good was, I think, quite valid. A Christian ministry which, on the surface, had all the attractants of good, promises of well-being etc etc - but behind the scenes, or analogously, under the crawlspace, the broken lives, hearts, and souls of those who were victimized to whatever degree.
Before someone jumps on WordWolf for comparing Wierwille to Gacy...
He is not saying that Wierwille was a serial killer, rapist or child molestor or even a clown.
The point is that someone doing "nice" things doesn't mean that he didn't do the evil things as well. That a good exterior sometimes hides a rotten interior.
It also stands to reason that in order to perpetuate thewell crafted image of a "christian minister", vp had to be publically "nice" to many, especially in the early days while the ministry was growing and where at HQ's people had more direct access to him in person on a daily basis. Â This ultimately fulfilled his overall goals of a cash cow ministry, public accolaide and prestige, power, and indulgence in his perversions.
The narcissists and sociopaths that I've known always have a posse of supporters who loyally follow and approve of the narcissist, primarily because they have been systematically and deliberately manipulated by him and have only seen his good side by design. Â
The narcissists and sociopaths that I've known always have a posse of supporters who loyally follow and approve of the narcissist, primarily because they have been systematically and deliberately manipulated by him and have only seen his good side by design. Â
Before someone jumps on WordWolf for comparing Wierwille to Gacy...
He is not saying that Wierwille was a serial killer, rapist or child molestor or even a clown.
The point is that someone doing "nice" things doesn't mean that he didn't do the evil things as well. That a good exterior sometimes hides a rotten interior.
hey oak, i actually think the comparison is quite apropos...
they might not have done the same specific evil acts, but the analogy is on point regarding how "good" one looks on the exterior and the "nice" acts that they do...
afterall, gacy was "nice/kind" to his friends and neighbors, he did "good" things in community groups, he was "kind/loving" to children, he was a "good" catholic, people describe him as "generous, friendly, devoted" (all very "good" things)...
point is:
should we acknowledge that gacy was genuinely "kind and loving" and did "good, kind, & positive" acts when he wasn't letting his fleshly lusts get the best of him?
Back to the original topic. Ordination in TWI was in part based on The Evangelical Synod of North America and German(Swiss) Reformed Manual Acts of Worship 1947, similat to what Lutherans, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Methodists, and Presbyterians were using at that time(More recent materials are similar to ordination rite in Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox traditions). In most denominations, potential candidates speak to their pastors/priests and get endorsed by their congregations boards(council/consistory/vestry/session). The candidate usually meets with a Professional Preparation Committee/Task Force of the dioceses or synod(state level of the denomination) while still in college(unless they are searching for another vocation/job), they attend seminary for 2 years, serve interim at a congregation with pastor/priest as mentor, return to institution for final year of classes. Such courses include 1-2 years of Koine Greek including reading New Testament manuscripts, 1 semester or year of Hebrew/Aramaic, Old Testament history, New Testament history, post-biblical church history from Church Fathers, Reformers, Religion in North America, Liturgy, Hymnody, Fine Church Arts, homelitics, heremenetics, counseling, etc. just to name a few. The Way Corps was part Peace Corps, Salvation Army, and military base training./boot camp. So how much was similar to WC and colleges of Emporia and Rome City?
Two quick thoughts, based on my own personal dealings with a TWI believer who is a narcissist (I think the label fits Wierwille also):
The reason we are so easily fooled by a narcissist is that narcissists have to fool themselves.
Narcissists sometimes do good things (usually when it doesn't take a lot of effort) in order to convince themselves that they are good, and deserve the perks they demand from others.
i have this one boss who is a pathological liar (i think that's the term). he lies even when it's unnecessary. he also only looks out for HIMSELF -- ALWAYS !!!!!!
but he is the kindest, most generous (ha, in his mind) liar you will ever meet
if something hurts you, he's been hurt worse. if something makes you laugh, he can top that. ohmygod he's like that air freshener cameleon. he changes colors RIGHT BEFORE YOUR EYES and it doesn't seem to phase him in the least that he told you something different yesterday
it's almost impossible to describe him
but like i said, he's always so NICE. no one would ever speak badly of him.... until you get to watch him day in and day out for a number of years
Sorry if this is a repeat - I don't have a lot of time but I saw the thread title and wanted to give my story.
I was 5th corps and we were not told anything about how it worked but a year (i think) after we graduated we were sent a letter at corps week inviting us to be ordained if we felt it was appropriate. I assume everyone still "standing" got one. It was funny - the 5th corps started as the first big corps and ended as the last small group. But we were so big there were barely enough clergy for each of us to find one to lay hands on.
I remember a discussion w/ Don Weirwille about the process a few years later. He said it was remarkable that some people he would not have suspected responded positively to those letters and surprised him. I guess that was the pattern for a few years - get people to graduate the corps, give them a year on the field to see if they stuck around and ask them if they want to be ordained.
And I was very young (to respond to the other post) maybe 24. My first and last official acts as clergy were both funerals - a funny coincidence.
Ex, sorry about the confusion on my post. VPW ordination rites came from E&R Church Manual Acts of 1947, modified by his personal spin of theology. The classes offered at HQ, Emporia, and Rome City pretended to be similar to most theological seminaries(Old Testament History, New Testament History{Gospels, Acts, Epistles}, Koinne Greek-most denominations require 2 years, Aramaic/Hebrew- many divinity schools require 1 year of study). Outside of Figures of Speech and Orientalisms, other TWI courses were repeat of Seminars/Advanced Class Studies. WC and college division did not teach Church History such as the church Fathers(post apostolic theologians), the Reformation, or any other period including modern; no sacred music courses on hymnody or liturgy/ritual/worship, no pastoral counseling, etc. In most denominations, potential candidates talk with the clergy(Priest/Pastor) about discerning whether they should seek gradute school education
then meet with members of local congregational lay board of trustees(council, consistory, vestry, session, deacons) to get their support, then the candidate meets with state level of the denomination called a Professional Preparation Committee/Task Force which regularly meets with candidate from their Senior year in college until just before graduation from seminary. Most denominations require 2 years at the institution, 3rd year as an intern assigned to a local congregation with clergy as mentor. Then 4th and final year return to seminary for final classes and just before graduation meet with synodical/diocesean bishop or moderator/clerk for assignment to first congregation. After graduation, ordination occurs either at annual state convention of clergy or candidate's home congregation. Usually a mixture of pastor's decision/congregation searching because of vacancy/ and bishop/district supertindent requests. The Way Corps was part, JFK's Peace Corp, part Salvation Army, and a lot of Military boot camp blended together. Hope this explains the difference between TWI's ordination and what other Christians do for ordination. Some other denominations, sects, and cults will radically differ as will your mileage. YMMGV. So much for this "sermon". Now please pass the offering plates and horns of plenty until I determine that enough has been raised. LOL!
Darn it. I wrote an answer to DWBH and poof, it's gone. I must not have hit "reply" after I read the preview. I'll try to remember what I said.
DWBH, thanks for the clarification. I was reading what you said as more universal/general than you apparently meant it. And Sunesis and The Highway, thanks to you, too.
Being on staff was a real eye opener for me. I was oblivious regarding the scandalous stuff, but I was painfully aware of the legalism and the poor choices VPW often made when putting people in charge of departments and events. Some of the meanest, most legalistic, most arrogant people I had to deal with were ordained clergy, so unless there's a gift ministry of Big Mean DumbA$$, something was wrong somewhere.
One thing good came out of being at HQ though, besides the many great people I got to work with and came to know: It made leaving twi all the easier when I decided to bail. Quitting my job there has to be the best decision I've ever made in my life. I'll never forget the immense relief I felt driving away from there, knowing I was out from under the leagalism and the mandadory meetings and the other BS. It was as if I was breathing fresh air for the first time in a long time...and I'm still breathing!
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Twinky
Well, he did call himself "The Teacher". He was just teaching more than we all realized when we first took PFAL.
Naturally he would want to promote ("ordain") those who followed him and his teachings most closely. And who helped him to enjoy the bright future he envisaged.
...Could it be that some others were ordained simply as "cover" for the ones who followed his practices most closely?
(PS - A bit tongue in cheek that; there were some great folks who were ordained.)
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Linda Z
DWBH, I know how opportunistic VPW was and saw him use people's prominence and wealth and influence to his and twi's advantage often. I totally get what you're saying.
Here's the thing, though. My parents were neither wealthy nor influential. Dad was a regular, great guy (still is at age 88). He was a cabinet maker by trade, and Mom was a housewife. I can't think of a single thing VPW had to gain by being nice to them or to me or to my son or to the rest of the family. If it was money....hahahahaaha. He didn't get that. If it was just another few butts to sit in these uncomfortable chairs at the ROA, well, he did get that.
I'm not among the VP apologists around here. I have no problem recognizing (and detesting) the evil thiings he did to some people. However, I respectfully disagree if you're saying he never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it. I love you and I respect you immensely. But since Greasespot is a place where all opinions are welcomed, I guess I'm allowed mine. :)
I certainly recognize that I could be wrong. But I figure the One who's really keeping score never misses a trick.
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rhino
When vp came through wv on my interim year, we met briefly for breakfast, but we talked about getting older people to stay with the ministry, instead of just all the youngsters. We spoke of a few, and he was very interested in the subject.
It seems maybe he wanted some besides "kids' to give him an air of legitimacy, perhaps.
So any adults would have helped his image ... maybe.
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jen-o
thanks for posting this!
hmmm... do false prophets/false teachers really do any acts of kindness without them being attached to some covetous expectation...i really don't think so...
but if they did, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack...
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya lindaZ!........always nice to see your avatar and posts around these forums!
allow me a short quote from your last post: "I'm not among the VP apologists around here. I have no problem recognizing (and detesting) the evil thiings he did to some people. However, I respectfully disagree if you're saying he never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it. I love you and I respect you immensely. But since Greasespot is a place where all opinions are welcomed, I guess I'm allowed mine. :) "
you most certainly are entitled to your opininion, and to post it whenever and wherever you want........i've never known your posts to be contentious, or pugnacious.........they're usually well thought out and well written, imho...........i also love and respect you, so your opinions are always interesting to me, whether we happen to agree or not.......so, thanks for posting the above........differing opinions always make for good discussion, and promote critical thinking, of which i am a big fan.
i am not saying that vic "never did a single act of kindness without the expectation of getting something out of it.".........i was not privvy to all the "acts of kindness" vic may have performed during his life and "ministry", so if i did make a statement like that i would be wrong........my response to ex10 was based on previous conversations with her regarding the specifics of her personal circumstances in her experiences with vic and his dealings with her and her family.........and, the details i shared regarding the dinners with my folks in 1975 are also specific to the personal circumstances surrounding his dealings with me and my folks.........and, they reflect my opinions concerning what his underlying motivations may have been........hopefully i'm not presumptuous enough to insist that my opinions of what vic's motives may have been in his dealings with the two specific families i mentioned must be broadened to apply to every "act of kindness" he ever performed..........that is not what i am saying, nor do i mean to imply the same either...........however, i do believe that such "acts" were less often done with purely philanthropic motives than they were to procure some kind of personal gain for vic himself........and this became more the rule than the exception, especially as the size of twi's membership and of its various programs like the corps and wow programs grew...............
the reasons for my sharing what i did, were to demonstrate that vic's "ministry" was more of a slick, religious con than it was a genuine "christian ministry", imho............at least in my personal dealings and observations with him.......observations which, perhaps you agree with in those specific situations i mention, though they seem to differ from your own specific experiences with your family...........but, i will reiterate that, far more than not, imo, vic's personal pathologies and perversions
clouded his actions with self-serving, immoral, and dysfunctional motivations, and that many times, his "acts of kindness" were not in fact, "acts of kindness" at all, but merely the outward signs of his profound, personality disorders disguised with "christian", or biblical verbiage..............and, as far as just numbers go, imo, there were far more acts of psychoemotional terrorism committed towards "his" people by him, than "acts of kindness".........hope that clarifies my opinion on this for you................thanks for posting yours.............with respect backatchya...................peace.
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shazdancer
Two quick thoughts, based on my own personal dealings with a TWI believer who is a narcissist (I think the label fits Wierwille also):
The reason we are so easily fooled by a narcissist is that narcissists have to fool themselves.
Edited by shazdancerNarcissists sometimes do good things (usually when it doesn't take a lot of effort) in order to convince themselves that they are good, and deserve the perks they demand from others.
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TheHighWay
Linda Z, I love your opinions!! Keep 'em coming!!
Actully, I think it was my post that pretty much threw Vic on the fire. But I wasn't trying to say he never did anything nice without expecting something in return. It's more like, I don't believe he did something nice without there being something in it for him, even if that "something" was just a personal ego-stroke. It's clear that VP took a liking to certain people and their families and treated them differently than he treated most folks. But his kindnesses were "willy-nilly" and not at all consistent. They don't reflect (IMHO) the true being of the man.
(edited for double-post)
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Sunesis
Linda Z - love your posts! Don't stop. I know, especially with early corps, there were many nice things he did for his "keeds." I know one of them, he paid to have his teeth fixed - he was a young guy and they were pretty bad. There are good things he did. Narcissists and sociopaths can also be magnanimous - of which VP certainly could be. As the above-poster said, it boosts their image of themselves. My late step mother was a classic narcissist. She could be very giving - but, you owed her down the road - after all she had done for you. I imagine there was a bit of that with VP.
DWBH - I have a question for you. When did you start to suspect VP wasn't all he made himself out to be? When did you start having your doubts? In, out, with hindsight? What was the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak, when you thought - this guy's a perv or conman? Just curious, you don't have to answer. But I find it interesting to hear people's perspectives who were close to him.
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chockfull
The trait of "being nice to people" with vp in my opinion you have to look at within the overall perspective of his life and what he was trying to accomplish. He was trained in school as a pastor. He did know the duties involved there, with meeting with people and caring for them. He did this for families when many other men went off to fight in WW2. During the time most of us knew him, he was expanding his organization he founded into a worldwide organization. As such, and as common to founding CEO's of many companies, the "sales" mode is always on, as is communicating vision. Can you separate a man from that vision or that mode? It's hard. Were the motives "pure"? Well, within the confines of his vision, probably so. Did he genuinely care for people and show it beyond what they could do for him to help establish his vision? That's hard to determine, and we may never have an answer. Certainly he was a man consumed by his vision, so everything he did and everyone he interacted with was framed by that. The vision itself is what I question. If it was genuine and God-inspired, as opposed to egocentric and megalomaniac-like, why would you sexually abuse people, make political power plays, take the glory yourself, and act like an overall abusive jerk? The overall fruit of his life, and that of those who followed in his chief position footsteps is one of abuse, control, perversion of scriptures, using people to please himself.
So the real crux of it from my opinion is that the fruit defines the man. And you can't separate a person from the fruit they produce.
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WordWolf
When addressing the good that some people do,
I like to bring up one "upstanding citizen"- who was a member of the Jaycees,
a local pillar of his community, got a high-level security clearance from the Secret Service,
and was known locally for throwing block parties where he entertained local children as a clown.
Sounds like a nice guy, right?
"To everyone who met him, John Wayne Gacy seemed a likable and affable man. He was widely respected in the community, charming and easy to get along with. He was a good Catholic and sharp businessman who, when not running his construction company was active in the Jaycees and was also a Democratic Party precinct captain, when he had his photo taken with then First Lady, Rosalynn Carter. He also spent much of his free time hosting elaborate street parties for his friends and neighbors, serving in community groups and entertaining children as "Pogo the Clown". He was a generous, hard working, friendly, devoted family man, everyone knew that -- but that was the side of John Wayne Gacy that he allowed people to see.
Underneath the smiling mask of the clown was the face of depraved fiend."
http://www.prairieghosts.com/gacy.html
For those who don't know the kind of monster Gacy was...
"John Wayne Gacy (March 17, 1942 – May 10, 1994) also known as The Killer Clown, was an American serial killer.
He was convicted and later executed for the rape and murder of 33 boys and young men between 1972 and his arrest in 1978, 27 of whom he buried in a crawl space under the floor of his house, while others were found in nearby rivers. He became notorious as the "Killer Clown" because of the many block parties he threw for his friends and neighbors, entertaining children in a clown suit and makeup, under the name of "Pogo the Clown." He was also in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest sentence imposed on a mass murderer; he was given 21 consecutive life sentences and 12 death sentences."
So, it would not surprise me that vpw could seem like a nice guy, a generous guy, friendly, even a pillar of the community.
He would hardly be alone in this....
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Oakspear
Before someone jumps on WordWolf for comparing Wierwille to Gacy...
He is not saying that Wierwille was a serial killer, rapist or child molestor or even a clown.
The point is that someone doing "nice" things doesn't mean that he didn't do the evil things as well. That a good exterior sometimes hides a rotten interior.
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RumRunner
Wouldn't have taken it as such Oakspear - well maybe the rapist part...
The comparison of evil lurking behind the facade of good was, I think, quite valid. A Christian ministry which, on the surface, had all the attractants of good, promises of well-being etc etc - but behind the scenes, or analogously, under the crawlspace, the broken lives, hearts, and souls of those who were victimized to whatever degree.
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now I see
It also stands to reason that in order to perpetuate thewell crafted image of a "christian minister", vp had to be publically "nice" to many, especially in the early days while the ministry was growing and where at HQ's people had more direct access to him in person on a daily basis. Â This ultimately fulfilled his overall goals of a cash cow ministry, public accolaide and prestige, power, and indulgence in his perversions.
The narcissists and sociopaths that I've known always have a posse of supporters who loyally follow and approve of the narcissist, primarily because they have been systematically and deliberately manipulated by him and have only seen his good side by design. Â
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TheHighWay
Excellent point!
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excathedra
i thought wordwolf was talking about dennis rader, that church president of some kind, that cub scout leader.....
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jen-o
they might not have done the same specific evil acts, but the analogy is on point regarding how "good" one looks on the exterior and the "nice" acts that they do...
afterall, gacy was "nice/kind" to his friends and neighbors, he did "good" things in community groups, he was "kind/loving" to children, he was a "good" catholic, people describe him as "generous, friendly, devoted" (all very "good" things)...
point is:
should we acknowledge that gacy was genuinely "kind and loving" and did "good, kind, & positive" acts when he wasn't letting his fleshly lusts get the best of him?
peace,
jen-o
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Back to the original topic. Ordination in TWI was in part based on The Evangelical Synod of North America and German(Swiss) Reformed Manual Acts of Worship 1947, similat to what Lutherans, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Methodists, and Presbyterians were using at that time(More recent materials are similar to ordination rite in Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox traditions). In most denominations, potential candidates speak to their pastors/priests and get endorsed by their congregations boards(council/consistory/vestry/session). The candidate usually meets with a Professional Preparation Committee/Task Force of the dioceses or synod(state level of the denomination) while still in college(unless they are searching for another vocation/job), they attend seminary for 2 years, serve interim at a congregation with pastor/priest as mentor, return to institution for final year of classes. Such courses include 1-2 years of Koine Greek including reading New Testament manuscripts, 1 semester or year of Hebrew/Aramaic, Old Testament history, New Testament history, post-biblical church history from Church Fathers, Reformers, Religion in North America, Liturgy, Hymnody, Fine Church Arts, homelitics, heremenetics, counseling, etc. just to name a few. The Way Corps was part Peace Corps, Salvation Army, and military base training./boot camp. So how much was similar to WC and colleges of Emporia and Rome City?
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excathedra
what ?
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excathedra
----
i have this one boss who is a pathological liar (i think that's the term). he lies even when it's unnecessary. he also only looks out for HIMSELF -- ALWAYS !!!!!!
but he is the kindest, most generous (ha, in his mind) liar you will ever meet
if something hurts you, he's been hurt worse. if something makes you laugh, he can top that. ohmygod he's like that air freshener cameleon. he changes colors RIGHT BEFORE YOUR EYES and it doesn't seem to phase him in the least that he told you something different yesterday
it's almost impossible to describe him
but like i said, he's always so NICE. no one would ever speak badly of him.... until you get to watch him day in and day out for a number of years
scary
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My3Cents
Sorry if this is a repeat - I don't have a lot of time but I saw the thread title and wanted to give my story.
I was 5th corps and we were not told anything about how it worked but a year (i think) after we graduated we were sent a letter at corps week inviting us to be ordained if we felt it was appropriate. I assume everyone still "standing" got one. It was funny - the 5th corps started as the first big corps and ended as the last small group. But we were so big there were barely enough clergy for each of us to find one to lay hands on.
I remember a discussion w/ Don Weirwille about the process a few years later. He said it was remarkable that some people he would not have suspected responded positively to those letters and surprised him. I guess that was the pattern for a few years - get people to graduate the corps, give them a year on the field to see if they stuck around and ask them if they want to be ordained.
And I was very young (to respond to the other post) maybe 24. My first and last official acts as clergy were both funerals - a funny coincidence.
Hope that helps.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ex, sorry about the confusion on my post. VPW ordination rites came from E&R Church Manual Acts of 1947, modified by his personal spin of theology. The classes offered at HQ, Emporia, and Rome City pretended to be similar to most theological seminaries(Old Testament History, New Testament History{Gospels, Acts, Epistles}, Koinne Greek-most denominations require 2 years, Aramaic/Hebrew- many divinity schools require 1 year of study). Outside of Figures of Speech and Orientalisms, other TWI courses were repeat of Seminars/Advanced Class Studies. WC and college division did not teach Church History such as the church Fathers(post apostolic theologians), the Reformation, or any other period including modern; no sacred music courses on hymnody or liturgy/ritual/worship, no pastoral counseling, etc. In most denominations, potential candidates talk with the clergy(Priest/Pastor) about discerning whether they should seek gradute school education
then meet with members of local congregational lay board of trustees(council, consistory, vestry, session, deacons) to get their support, then the candidate meets with state level of the denomination called a Professional Preparation Committee/Task Force which regularly meets with candidate from their Senior year in college until just before graduation from seminary. Most denominations require 2 years at the institution, 3rd year as an intern assigned to a local congregation with clergy as mentor. Then 4th and final year return to seminary for final classes and just before graduation meet with synodical/diocesean bishop or moderator/clerk for assignment to first congregation. After graduation, ordination occurs either at annual state convention of clergy or candidate's home congregation. Usually a mixture of pastor's decision/congregation searching because of vacancy/ and bishop/district supertindent requests. The Way Corps was part, JFK's Peace Corp, part Salvation Army, and a lot of Military boot camp blended together. Hope this explains the difference between TWI's ordination and what other Christians do for ordination. Some other denominations, sects, and cults will radically differ as will your mileage. YMMGV. So much for this "sermon". Now please pass the offering plates and horns of plenty until I determine that enough has been raised. LOL!
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Linda Z
Darn it. I wrote an answer to DWBH and poof, it's gone. I must not have hit "reply" after I read the preview. I'll try to remember what I said.
DWBH, thanks for the clarification. I was reading what you said as more universal/general than you apparently meant it. And Sunesis and The Highway, thanks to you, too.
Being on staff was a real eye opener for me. I was oblivious regarding the scandalous stuff, but I was painfully aware of the legalism and the poor choices VPW often made when putting people in charge of departments and events. Some of the meanest, most legalistic, most arrogant people I had to deal with were ordained clergy, so unless there's a gift ministry of Big Mean DumbA$$, something was wrong somewhere.
One thing good came out of being at HQ though, besides the many great people I got to work with and came to know: It made leaving twi all the easier when I decided to bail. Quitting my job there has to be the best decision I've ever made in my life. I'll never forget the immense relief I felt driving away from there, knowing I was out from under the leagalism and the mandadory meetings and the other BS. It was as if I was breathing fresh air for the first time in a long time...and I'm still breathing!
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excathedra
thankyou thomas loy bumgarner
and wing, thank you for post #83. i missed it first time around, thank you
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