Re:"Is there room in the discussion here for other stuff? There is/was a reason VP fooled people."
It always makes me feel better when good reasons are given for why folks joined up with this cult. Makes ME feel less like a fool and his money. Of course if VP had been a total monster then he wouldn't have fooled anybody like you say. But it seems that Hitler had most of Germany bamboozled. And Mussolini did make the trains run on time didn't he?
So maybe VP actually taught some hot Word? Hey! Something got us all hooked didn't it?
sudo
And therein lies the crux of a rather large problem; how can one sort out that which was real from that which was not?
Well, I suppose it one wanted to spend hours on end with their nose buried in a book it might be partially possible.
That time might be better spent, though, just helping the guy down the street who has gotten too elderly to handle all his chores on his own.
Through out the years I spent with TWI they would mention problems with their tax status but they "hinted" at the cause to be if they were recognize as a non profit agency. This is the first I ever heard of this. For the sake those like me (or just me if everyone already knows or don't care), could you give a little more insight on this. Who is Gahagan and why did TWI get behind him? What did the TWI do that cause them to lose their tax-exempt status?
..........for whatever reason i'm not aware of, vic seemed to me to take some kind of perverse pleasure in manipulating and "playing" jimmy with his (vic's) sexual peccadilloes and predilections, thinking that jimmy and judi were somehow involved in or pre-disposed to "free love/sex" in the bay area revival of the late 1960's.........and the doop's suffered deeply at vic's hands because of this presumption on vic's part!!
Again, I was totally oblivious to this. In fact I never heard of Jimmy, Judi, Doop or heefner until this thread. What happen to Doop? How did he try to manipulate Jimmy?
It really makes me wonder what I was involved in and worse, got others into.
hi gang!...........i gotta go to work today from 0800 to noon..........so, i'll be brief right now......(i know, i know....."thank gawd", right??......LOL!).........
rumrunner..........i pm'd ya!
hi ex10!.........good question........we have spent time discussing the subjects your "experiences" with vic bring up........but, i'll elaborate further later today, after work, and perhaps we can both add some more perspective by discussing the answers to your questions in a little more detail, either on this thread, or we can start a new one.......
hey socks!.........i sure don't wanna choke any horses out here in da east, gas prices bein' what they are........heherhe..........but, i sure would love to read that post you ain't posted!!!.......you have an important perspective to offer to us, imho, because of your early and intense involvement with jimmy and steve out on the left coast, your knowledge of and participation in the way west from its inception, and the fact that you too were "ordained" by vic as twi "clergy"...........i hope your schedule loosens up a bit so you can post some more of what's living in your soul...........please?
jen-o........i did not mean to imply that you were elevating any folks to "mog staus", or some such thing...........sorry if i came across that way..........thanks for your clarification though!
hi now i see, waysider and sudo!.......always nice readin' your posts and seein' your avatars!!!..........thanks for your posts!
and........hi fooledagainII!...........you started this thread!...........thanks for asking good questions!.........hope you keep getting good answers here at the spot!.......................see all you folks later today!................peace!
I had no ideal all these things had happen. The more I read these threads the more questions (and answers) I have.
Through out the years I spent with TWI they would mention problems with their tax status but they "hinted" at the cause to be if they were recognize as a non profit agency. This is the first I ever heard of this. For the sake those like me (or just me if everyone already knows or don't care), could you give a little more insight on this. Who is Gahagan and why did TWI get behind him? What did the TWI do that cause them to lose their tax-exempt status?
Again, I was totally oblivious to this. In fact I never heard of Jimmy, Judi, Doop or heefner until this thread. What happen to Doop? How did he try to manipulate Jimmy?
It really makes me wonder what I was involved in and worse, got others into.
Hi FooledagainII,
Your right, the more I read the more questions we have. Mine are not about who, what, or where in the twi. It's more about the teachings. Am I naive to believe the Word? I find such joy in it, but I don't want to be guided the wrong way. I'm too old to start twi's teaching again if it is all bologne! I need some guidance. I continue to study daily, but now am leary of staying with twi. Please help me, any beliver in the Good News. Sam
Hayes Gahagan, if memory serves, was a young republican state senator in Maine, and a PFAL grad, who wanted to run for federal office in 1978. TWI got all excited that "one of our grads" was going to be in Washington. They also developed a group called the "Christian Political Alliance" around 1976, later changed to the "Constitutional Political Alliance." It fell in with all the "Christian country" hoopla that went around in TWI in 1976.
Where TWI went wrong was to encourage people to vote for him and support his campaign. (I think they also put TWI money and manpower into the campaign, but others can speak better to the truth of that.) One of the few things you can't do as a not-for-profit organization is to endorse a particular candidate.
Gahagan has recently come back into politics, see:
I remember there were Political WOW's sent up to help Hayes. POW WOW's, I think that they were called. I know at least one GSer was one. That was one of those decisions that, while very patriotic, was way out of the realm of TWI's scope.
This is great disscussion: clergy - ordained in der vey, how? or why?
Which leads to opening the distinct possiblity that the early growth surge of der vey maybe had been hijacked from other more simple (more guileless) movements?
Which leads to an earnest curiosity, how could this have happened? surely there had to have been some good in it?
How did we, as people, fall into being a part of it at all?
Even if you were there in the heat of it, how to explain it?
Thinking for yourself (rationally) was not encouraged EVER: But renewing your mind to der vey was.
And what about those lock boxes?
It's hard to now track any of those clear thoughts since they were daily suppressed for so many years!
I think that vic did have a plan. I think he was smart enough to have had one. I cringe today seeing hints of it surface. For example:
Sunesis recently quoted Jm Doop expressing that vic treated him like a son. Now that may not be a bannered front page headline for some of you. But it is a vp tactic. Maybe he did it to you too?
If vic could find a 'weakness' in you, then he'd try to test it, or to turn it around as a challenge; to obviate it into something that he could use, maybe make it better for you? (and a strength? well, he'd just give you a challenge to use it.)
(Maybe some of you were taught to sell the class in this manner too?)
I know he did it with me. Early on. Asked me to think of him as my father (he did know that I did not have one growing up). He told me to call him Dad whenever I spoke with him. At the time I thought it such a privilege, ooooo. I was aware of only one other person (also a close friend of mine) that vic was doing that with. But now I think that there were probably lots of others.
It's creepy now, especially with finding out about what some of the women have gone through; but then it was so special. .
It is just my opinion, but I do think that if vp thought you had some quality, or some possession, that he could possibly use; I think he'd find a means to get it from you.
Today, as I now reflect on these long gone events; I am starting to look for what STRINGS WERE ATTACHED TO HIS (veiled?) KINDNESSES?
If anyone is interested Paw did a good Greasespot Radio interview last year with David Di Sabatino the maker of the Lonnie Frisbee documentary, its GS radio #7 on 6/10/07, he talks about the early Jesus Movement, the Heefners, Doops, Wise, and Lonnie, very informative. Â Also there's some previous threads about him on GS that can be pulled up with the search engine, also a good thread about that time period is entitled "TWI 1, 2 and 3", here's a link to it:
hi again fellow greasespotters!...........phew!, it's hot out here today!!...........i'm rootin' for big brown to be the first triple crown winner in 30 years.......and, he'll have to do it on the hottest first saturday in june ever!!.......and, if he does, he will have outrun the largest field of challengers ever faced by a trple crown winner!.......run big brown, run!
ex10 posted: "If I may but in here, I know I probably don't belong, as I was never an important somebody in The Way. I never had an "important position" but I did spend time with VP, and he wasn't always as is described here.
I appreciate what my friend Don't is saying and others, but I had a different experience. The thing is, VP was not a total monster. If he hadda been, he wouldn't have fooled some really talented, smart people. Is there room in the discussion here for other stuff? There is/was a reason VP fooled people.
Don't, you were fooled for a long time. Why? Pardon my poignancy."
first of all, T.......i really don't understand why you might even consider that you "probably don't belong here"...........after all, you're coming up on your 6th "anniversary" of becoming a member here!.........no nametags, titles, or former twi "important positions" required, as far as i know..........i'm sure i'd never be a fellow greasespotter if there were!!........maybe you were having a "senior moment" and forgot which site you're posting on??..........hehehe...........and, imho, as the "hostess wit da mostess" of the famous TX BBQ's, you certainly belong here more than i do!!
anyway..........as we discussed at the last Q, your personal experiences with vic were much different from the experiences of quite a few other young women who became involved with twi and its founder in their teens and early 20's.........his "agenda" in his relationship with you, personally, was driven not by his psychosexual pathologies, which is extremely fortunate for you.......he wanted something more important than that from you.......knowing your family, and the relative "fame and wealth" of certain members of your extended family, he wanted the "feather in his cap" of "winning them over" to twi in order to gain access to the perceived wealth and fame, which he craved to use to increase his own wealth and fame, imho..............your brothers went into the corps........you went into the corps.......your folks opened their hearts and home to many twi folks through the years, blessing many throughout their years of twi involvement.........that's a lot of time and money extracted from your nuclear family, for sure!.........but that elusive prize of getting you-know-who involved in his "ministry" as deeply as your nuclear family was.........that was the major motivator behind his consistent "niceness" to you and your's, imo.............plus, he knew your parents personally, and had probably extended certain "promises" to them regarding his personal "care and concern" for your happiness and wellbeing as you "sold out" to the twi "lifestyle of christian service"..........vic was great at "puttin'-on-the-ritz" for folks from whom he thought he had something to gain for himself and his "ministry"!
i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training"...........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!
my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........
during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in........so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!
as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did. There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It's because of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!
vic willfully, deceitfully, and wrongfully usurped the position christ gave his life for............he stole the love, loyalty, and worship due god and his son and made them his own, for "filthy lucre's sake" and to serve his own lusts......he plundered the minstry of the risen christ, and robbed from the "ministries" of folks like jim doop and steve heefner, and others who sought to love and serve the true god only........he was a spiteful user of innocent christian souls to serve his own belly............and, through flowery words and fancy speeches, he made merchandise of those for whom god sacrificed his only begotten son..............as for me and my house...............NEVER AGAIN!.........................peace.
Your pops was awesome - way to go! He sounds like a wonderful man and you were blessed to have him for your dad. Sounds like he taught you a lot of wonderful things.
That's a great point about, where ever VP was not in the early days, and we were left to our own devices, the ministry flourished. It was when he clamped down, made his presence known that things slowed down. After I left NY and moved to Columbus, there was a flourishing TWI presence in the early '70s in the OSU campus area, then my brother pretty much single-handedly opened up the suburban high school we were in - lots of kids got born again. It was wonderful, we were pretty much untouched by VP and his leadership and had a great time.
Once he started putting his corps guys in there, or, as in NY, all of a sudden, I now had to go to a twig at so and so's house, and not where my friends went, and other little rules started happening, it put a damper on things.
I think its interesting to see also, that the bigger the corps grew, as they were sent out on to the "field" the "movement" of the Word really slowed down, it became more of a maintenance thing, keep the people you have, there would be the occassional new person, classes seemed fewer and far between. Maybe that's just my perception, but things to me were not anything like they were in the "old" days of TWI.
Someone once said, TWI went from being an organization that served the people, to an organization that was served by the people - which was its downfall. I think that's true. And yes, if VP wanted something from you, you were treated wonderfully by him.
he wanted the "feather in his cap" of "winning them over" to twi in order to gain access to the perceived wealth and fame, which he craved to use to increase his own wealth and fame, imho
&
but that elusive prize of getting you-know-who involved in his "ministry" as deeply as your nuclear family was.........that was the major motivator behind his consistent "niceness" to you and your's, imo
&
vic was great at "puttin'-on-the-ritz" for folks from whom he thought he had something to gain for himself and his "ministry"!
&
point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!
&
if VP wanted something from you, you were treated wonderfully by him.
so does this make vpw less of a monster?...
if a person is "nice" sometimes in order to get what he/she wants, what does this say about that person?...
imo, this makes the person more of a monster...
great verses, don, about how vpw made merchandise of people!
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you... (feigned: pretend, sham, counterfeit, disguised) [2 pet. 2:3a]
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speechesdeceive (i.e. fool) the hearts of the simple. [romans 16:18]
what an appropriate description of victor paul wierwille!!
and wings, thanks for your post!
it elucidates the cold, calculating, manipulative nature of vpw's "niceness"...
vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread
hello again greasespotters!............thanks sunesis!..........yup, my pops was a good man, and when i finally quit twi for good, i had nine years to reconnect with him,....... and it was during those nine years that i enjoyed the best relationship with him that i ever had during the time we got to share together on this earth, and learned more from him than i could have had i continued to allow twi to keep me separate from the serendipitous "birthright" of having him for a father!
sam posted:......."Your right, the more I read the more questions we have. Mine are not about who, what, or where in the twi. It's more about the teachings. Am I naive to believe the Word? I find such joy in it, but I don't want to be guided the wrong way. I'm too old to start twi's teaching again if it is all bologne! I need some guidance. I continue to study daily, but now am leary of staying with twi. Please help me, any beliver in the Good News. Sam "...........now that's poignant!!.............those questions are difficult for me to answer for you sam.......it's time for you to answer them for yourself, and you can start with what YOU believe "the word" is, and WHY you believe it......we all know twis answers to those questions, but their answers are wrong, imo....but, that's my opinion, based on my personal study and review of everything vic taught, once i decided to leave twi......i was 36 years old when i left, with three young children (oldest was 7 at the time), no job, no place to live, and feeling pretty alone out there in that "big, bad, world"!......but, the exhileration of regaining my FREEDOM overpowered any fears i may have harbored!.......imho, you are never too old to stop learning and asking questions.............one thing i will say......."staying with twi" most certainly is not an answer you should come up with!..........
there are many, many, threads, posts, links, etc., here at the spot that will help you answer questions for yourself, at your own pace.........plus, there are tons of folks here who have been where you are right now, and who are more than willing to help you via dialogue, discussion, debate, and compassionate understanding.......stick around for awhile.........there's tons of stuff to read, view, and listen to here, and there will be no one insisting that you believe a certain way......that may be something you'll have to adjust to.......you get to decide what you believe and why.........never give up that right/responsibilty again!.........enjoy pawtucket's world famous "reality blend" here at the spot........it's my personal favorite, and the refills are free!.........it may be really strong, and sometimes hard to swallow, but......it's definitely the best cup-o-joe available in the brave new world of cyberspace information about twi and its offshoots/splinters!.................sit back, relax, and enjoy reclaiming your critical thinking processes.........and your freedom from the insanity and bondage which twi is!...............peace.
Am I naive to believe the Word? I find such joy in it, but I don't want to be guided the wrong way. I'm too old to start twi's teaching again if it is all bologne! I need some guidance. I continue to study daily, but now am leary of staying with twi. Please help me, any beliver in the Good News. Sam
If you mean "am I naive to just accept everything twi said about the Bible?"
If that's what you mean, then, yes, you ARE naive.
If you mean "Am I naive because I believe the Bible is God's Word?"
That's a cornerstone (depending on how it's meant) of Christianity.
Many survivors of twi read the Bible, think for themselves, and trust God.
Sometimes they agree with something vpw said, ("Mary is the mother of Jesus"),
and sometimes they don't ("what you believe, you receive.")
Generally, you can find a Christian of nearly every opinion SOMEWHERE on this site.
(Including the ones who think vpw was a nice guy.)
If you believe the Bible, do like the Bereans. When they were taught, they searched
the Scriptures daily, to see if what they were taught lined up with the Bible.
Oh, and sometimes we can disagree but still respect each other, and sometimes we can
overlook minor doctrinal differences in favor of the big picture.
(Don't pretend they don't exist-just don't fixate on them, is all.)
Don'tWorry, many thanks for recounting the story of your father hearing tongues with interpretation at a Rye service, and knowing the translations. I had heard that story from someone else back then, and always wondered if it was apocryphal. I was a wide-eyed young high schooler zooming down to Rye Presb. from CT, via HK's wheels in those days. Interesting to know that there was something going on that was more than "loshanta!"
Yes, I also got a whoa! out of hearing Gahagan speech. The more things change, the more they remain the same....
Well just to be the cynic, I wouldn't put it past vp, in his efforts to impress and win over good old dad, to put a couple folks in the audience to speak in their tongue they knew and give the interpretation. I knew an educated guy that used to always "speak in tongues" in his native language, then give the english version. Pretty convenient really.
And I wonder the point of the tongues and interpretation anyway ... if there is some reason for the tongues part to be unknown, why would God give out tongues that were known in this instance? Twice?
And it makes no sense to me ... when they say what is the profit if there is no interpretation ... I say what is the profit even with the interpretation? It's funny the questions that pop up when you remove divine authority from the Bible (or from the person teaching you the Bible)
Anyway ... just letting Sam know there are a variety of opinions here :)
Well, this thread gets my vote for being a "must read" for all the information and insight being shared here!!! Whew! A lot of details I never knew...
And I think the people who have shared how Vic sought out those who could benefit HIM in some way (either sexually or monitarily, or because they had some influence or skill he thought he could hijack for twi) are exposing the true core of the man. He was a con artist; a really, reallly good one. And that kind of person is selfish to the extreme (to the end that it never even occurs to them that others don't also want what is best for THEM at all times), and they are a master at being whatever they need to be to get what they want. Period. In my opinion, any goodness or kindness VP showed to others was simply one more tool in his toolbox; just another means to an end that benefitted himself.
I'm going to repeat something I posted on another thread because I think it is pertinent to understanding VP, and why so many of us joined twi:
I know someone who fell in love, got married, and tied up her finances very quickly with a guy she thought was everything she was looking for, only to find out there wasn't a single thing he had told her about himself that had been the truth!! (not his age, his background, work history, financial history, family ties... nothing) In the time it took her to figure that out, he'd eaten through her life savings and put her deeply into debt. She divorced him. But she can't get over him. Why not? Because she can't let go of what he was like in the beginning. He was kind, caring, thoughtful, generous... and she keeps saying she doesn't understand where that man went? She really cannot bring herself to face the fact that this was just a mask hiding the real person inside -- the selfish, callous, mean, violent man she saw after they were married. She keeps looking for a REASON for the change, and will not admit that no change happened, just a lifting of the mask.
And that is the hardest thing for folks to "get"... that the chances of this kind of person doing good things because it was the right thing, or the kind thing to do, is pretty slim. It just isn't within them to think that way. They know that it is a way to reel people in to their circle of influence, so they do it. But the minute they see no need to be nice, the mask comes off and the kindness is gone. Folks say there were two sides to VP... to which I say, yes: the narcicist inside and the false mask outside.
Well just to be the cynic, I wouldn't put it past vp, in his efforts to impress and win over good old dad, to put a couple folks in the audience to speak in their tongue they knew and give the interpretation.
"Shills" are an age old reality in the business of professional theatre, especially when a production is new and large quantities of cash are on the line.
It certainly does seem peculiar that VP not only remembered the incident four years after the fact but that he conveniently found a way to incorporate the incident into conversation at an especially critical moment during what was essentially a sales pitch.
"Shills" are an age old reality in the business of professional theatre, especially when a production is new and large quantities of cash are on the line.
I also saw it used by TWI another place ... more crudely. Clauddete travelling with the black quartet, told the story of being on the WOW field, what is the thing that bugs you most about the guys ... and pretty peggio from the audience yells, "not putting the toilet seat down". Rather obviously staged ... but it got a laugh. Clauddete says "right" and does her sitting on the cold seat spiel.
Maybe vp taught them how well shills can work. Maybe it was common practice. (maybe that's a new thread :))
I can and will tell you as a matter of stated fact that "shill witnessing" was promoted by TWI.
It was an especially popular method to use when mall-witnessing. Lots of malls have "no solicitation" rules, but, impromptu conversations among (what appear to be) strangers are permitted. It's a perfect method of circumventing that little technicality.
It's as old as the very art of "hucksterism". (Is that a real word?)
I also saw it used by TWI another place ... more crudely. Clauddete travelling with the black quartet, told the story of being on the WOW field, what is the thing that bugs you most about the guys ... and pretty peggio from the audience yells, "not putting the toilet seat down". Rather obviously staged ... but it got a laugh. Clauddete says "right" and does her sitting on the cold seat spiel.
HA! I never gave that much thought (even though I saw that particular routine TWICE). In retrospect I can see how so much of what we thought was spontaneous ad-libs by "Joyful Noise" or the "Take a Stand Caravan" or whatever event-du-jour we were currently disrupting our lives to attend was simply well-choreographed performance art (or - sometimes - not that well choreographed). Yeah, all that "in-spirit-action" going on, huh? pfffffft...
Thanks, Don't for the thoughtful response to my post. I suppose it's hard for me to comprehend the seduction of VP. I never felt like I was "special" or getting preferential treatment while I was in The Way. But looking back in hindsight, I do see instances of being the "exception" to the rules. Every so often during my in-rez years, I would get accused of being VP's "pet." Of course, I highly resented the accusations at the time, and really didn't see the special little "benefits" I was afforded. Neither was I aware of the dulpicitous morality.
And I suppose my brother and I both marrying into families who were very supportive of our involvement, and who also were known as being generous and hospitable and "faithful to the ministry," just reinforced the double standard.
The interesting thing is, when news broke in the mid 80's of the rampant abuses of people, power and position, we all left en masse, as did many other families. I suppose we had the advantage of comparing notes, and discussing things with an older generation whose lives were not totally wrapped up in which church or ("ministry") we supported.
I guess that's why we pretty easily quit twig and went to church, all in one breath, more or less. :o Funny though, how all these years later, wierd doctrinal leftovers from The Way rear their ugly heads, in conversation. But I suppose it's not that different than the Catholic teaching that was inbred in all of us from our Catholic educations. Those things sometimes come up as well.
Thanks for the insight, Don't. I know we have discussed these things before, but I thought it might be beneficial to do so here, in front of Jesus and everybody. By the way, this year's BBQ is definitely on. Is it too early to advertize? ;)
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
12
14
14
Popular Days
Jun 4
24
Jun 7
18
Jun 14
18
Jun 8
17
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 15 posts
waysider 12 posts
DontWorryBeHappy 14 posts
wing 14 posts
Popular Days
Jun 4 2008
24 posts
Jun 7 2008
18 posts
Jun 14 2008
18 posts
Jun 8 2008
17 posts
waysider
And therein lies the crux of a rather large problem; how can one sort out that which was real from that which was not?
Well, I suppose it one wanted to spend hours on end with their nose buried in a book it might be partially possible.
That time might be better spent, though, just helping the guy down the street who has gotten too elderly to handle all his chores on his own.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
fooledagainII
I had no ideal all these things had happen. The more I read these threads the more questions (and answers) I have.
Through out the years I spent with TWI they would mention problems with their tax status but they "hinted" at the cause to be if they were recognize as a non profit agency. This is the first I ever heard of this. For the sake those like me (or just me if everyone already knows or don't care), could you give a little more insight on this. Who is Gahagan and why did TWI get behind him? What did the TWI do that cause them to lose their tax-exempt status?
Again, I was totally oblivious to this. In fact I never heard of Jimmy, Judi, Doop or heefner until this thread. What happen to Doop? How did he try to manipulate Jimmy?
It really makes me wonder what I was involved in and worse, got others into.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
hi gang!...........i gotta go to work today from 0800 to noon..........so, i'll be brief right now......(i know, i know....."thank gawd", right??......LOL!).........
rumrunner..........i pm'd ya!
hi ex10!.........good question........we have spent time discussing the subjects your "experiences" with vic bring up........but, i'll elaborate further later today, after work, and perhaps we can both add some more perspective by discussing the answers to your questions in a little more detail, either on this thread, or we can start a new one.......
hey socks!.........i sure don't wanna choke any horses out here in da east, gas prices bein' what they are........heherhe..........but, i sure would love to read that post you ain't posted!!!.......you have an important perspective to offer to us, imho, because of your early and intense involvement with jimmy and steve out on the left coast, your knowledge of and participation in the way west from its inception, and the fact that you too were "ordained" by vic as twi "clergy"...........i hope your schedule loosens up a bit so you can post some more of what's living in your soul...........please?
jen-o........i did not mean to imply that you were elevating any folks to "mog staus", or some such thing...........sorry if i came across that way..........thanks for your clarification though!
hi now i see, waysider and sudo!.......always nice readin' your posts and seein' your avatars!!!..........thanks for your posts!
and........hi fooledagainII!...........you started this thread!...........thanks for asking good questions!.........hope you keep getting good answers here at the spot!.......................see all you folks later today!................peace!
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sam
Hi FooledagainII,
Your right, the more I read the more questions we have. Mine are not about who, what, or where in the twi. It's more about the teachings. Am I naive to believe the Word? I find such joy in it, but I don't want to be guided the wrong way. I'm too old to start twi's teaching again if it is all bologne! I need some guidance. I continue to study daily, but now am leary of staying with twi. Please help me, any beliver in the Good News. Sam
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Hayes Gahagan, if memory serves, was a young republican state senator in Maine, and a PFAL grad, who wanted to run for federal office in 1978. TWI got all excited that "one of our grads" was going to be in Washington. They also developed a group called the "Christian Political Alliance" around 1976, later changed to the "Constitutional Political Alliance." It fell in with all the "Christian country" hoopla that went around in TWI in 1976.
Where TWI went wrong was to encourage people to vote for him and support his campaign. (I think they also put TWI money and manpower into the campaign, but others can speak better to the truth of that.) One of the few things you can't do as a not-for-profit organization is to endorse a particular candidate.
Gahagan has recently come back into politics, see:
http://appserver.veoh.com/videos/v141397214WQ7jBfp
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
I remember there were Political WOW's sent up to help Hayes. POW WOW's, I think that they were called. I know at least one GSer was one. That was one of those decisions that, while very patriotic, was way out of the realm of TWI's scope.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wing
This is great disscussion: clergy - ordained in der vey, how? or why?
Which leads to opening the distinct possiblity that the early growth surge of der vey maybe had been hijacked from other more simple (more guileless) movements?
Which leads to an earnest curiosity, how could this have happened? surely there had to have been some good in it?
How did we, as people, fall into being a part of it at all?
Even if you were there in the heat of it, how to explain it?
Thinking for yourself (rationally) was not encouraged EVER: But renewing your mind to der vey was.
And what about those lock boxes?
It's hard to now track any of those clear thoughts since they were daily suppressed for so many years!
I think that vic did have a plan. I think he was smart enough to have had one. I cringe today seeing hints of it surface. For example:
Sunesis recently quoted Jm Doop expressing that vic treated him like a son. Now that may not be a bannered front page headline for some of you. But it is a vp tactic. Maybe he did it to you too?
If vic could find a 'weakness' in you, then he'd try to test it, or to turn it around as a challenge; to obviate it into something that he could use, maybe make it better for you? (and a strength? well, he'd just give you a challenge to use it.)
(Maybe some of you were taught to sell the class in this manner too?)
I know he did it with me. Early on. Asked me to think of him as my father (he did know that I did not have one growing up). He told me to call him Dad whenever I spoke with him. At the time I thought it such a privilege, ooooo. I was aware of only one other person (also a close friend of mine) that vic was doing that with. But now I think that there were probably lots of others.
It's creepy now, especially with finding out about what some of the women have gone through; but then it was so special. .
It is just my opinion, but I do think that if vp thought you had some quality, or some possession, that he could possibly use; I think he'd find a means to get it from you.
Today, as I now reflect on these long gone events; I am starting to look for what STRINGS WERE ATTACHED TO HIS (veiled?) KINDNESSES?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Sounds like a master manipulator....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ps. and i'm thinking of adding this to the clergy thread(s)
any leader or higher-up or rev. or butcher baker candlestick maker who didn't start a jerkoffshoot is okay in my book
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
If anyone is interested Paw did a good Greasespot Radio interview last year with David Di Sabatino the maker of the Lonnie Frisbee documentary, its GS radio #7 on 6/10/07, he talks about the early Jesus Movement, the Heefners, Doops, Wise, and Lonnie, very informative. Â Also there's some previous threads about him on GS that can be pulled up with the search engine, also a good thread about that time period is entitled "TWI 1, 2 and 3", here's a link to it:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...224&hl=west
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
hi again fellow greasespotters!...........phew!, it's hot out here today!!...........i'm rootin' for big brown to be the first triple crown winner in 30 years.......and, he'll have to do it on the hottest first saturday in june ever!!.......and, if he does, he will have outrun the largest field of challengers ever faced by a trple crown winner!.......run big brown, run!
ex10 posted: "If I may but in here, I know I probably don't belong, as I was never an important somebody in The Way. I never had an "important position" but I did spend time with VP, and he wasn't always as is described here.
I appreciate what my friend Don't is saying and others, but I had a different experience. The thing is, VP was not a total monster. If he hadda been, he wouldn't have fooled some really talented, smart people. Is there room in the discussion here for other stuff? There is/was a reason VP fooled people.
Don't, you were fooled for a long time. Why? Pardon my poignancy."
first of all, T.......i really don't understand why you might even consider that you "probably don't belong here"...........after all, you're coming up on your 6th "anniversary" of becoming a member here!.........no nametags, titles, or former twi "important positions" required, as far as i know..........i'm sure i'd never be a fellow greasespotter if there were!!........maybe you were having a "senior moment" and forgot which site you're posting on??..........hehehe...........and, imho, as the "hostess wit da mostess" of the famous TX BBQ's, you certainly belong here more than i do!!
anyway..........as we discussed at the last Q, your personal experiences with vic were much different from the experiences of quite a few other young women who became involved with twi and its founder in their teens and early 20's.........his "agenda" in his relationship with you, personally, was driven not by his psychosexual pathologies, which is extremely fortunate for you.......he wanted something more important than that from you.......knowing your family, and the relative "fame and wealth" of certain members of your extended family, he wanted the "feather in his cap" of "winning them over" to twi in order to gain access to the perceived wealth and fame, which he craved to use to increase his own wealth and fame, imho..............your brothers went into the corps........you went into the corps.......your folks opened their hearts and home to many twi folks through the years, blessing many throughout their years of twi involvement.........that's a lot of time and money extracted from your nuclear family, for sure!.........but that elusive prize of getting you-know-who involved in his "ministry" as deeply as your nuclear family was.........that was the major motivator behind his consistent "niceness" to you and your's, imo.............plus, he knew your parents personally, and had probably extended certain "promises" to them regarding his personal "care and concern" for your happiness and wellbeing as you "sold out" to the twi "lifestyle of christian service"..........vic was great at "puttin'-on-the-ritz" for folks from whom he thought he had something to gain for himself and his "ministry"!
i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training"...........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!
my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........
during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in........so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!
as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did. There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It's because of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!
vic willfully, deceitfully, and wrongfully usurped the position christ gave his life for............he stole the love, loyalty, and worship due god and his son and made them his own, for "filthy lucre's sake" and to serve his own lusts......he plundered the minstry of the risen christ, and robbed from the "ministries" of folks like jim doop and steve heefner, and others who sought to love and serve the true god only........he was a spiteful user of innocent christian souls to serve his own belly............and, through flowery words and fancy speeches, he made merchandise of those for whom god sacrificed his only begotten son..............as for me and my house...............NEVER AGAIN!.........................peace.
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Your pops was awesome - way to go! He sounds like a wonderful man and you were blessed to have him for your dad. Sounds like he taught you a lot of wonderful things.
That's a great point about, where ever VP was not in the early days, and we were left to our own devices, the ministry flourished. It was when he clamped down, made his presence known that things slowed down. After I left NY and moved to Columbus, there was a flourishing TWI presence in the early '70s in the OSU campus area, then my brother pretty much single-handedly opened up the suburban high school we were in - lots of kids got born again. It was wonderful, we were pretty much untouched by VP and his leadership and had a great time.
Once he started putting his corps guys in there, or, as in NY, all of a sudden, I now had to go to a twig at so and so's house, and not where my friends went, and other little rules started happening, it put a damper on things.
I think its interesting to see also, that the bigger the corps grew, as they were sent out on to the "field" the "movement" of the Word really slowed down, it became more of a maintenance thing, keep the people you have, there would be the occassional new person, classes seemed fewer and far between. Maybe that's just my perception, but things to me were not anything like they were in the "old" days of TWI.
Someone once said, TWI went from being an organization that served the people, to an organization that was served by the people - which was its downfall. I think that's true. And yes, if VP wanted something from you, you were treated wonderfully by him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I once heard someone say that twi had become just another religion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jen-o
if a person is "nice" sometimes in order to get what he/she wants, what does this say about that person?...
imo, this makes the person more of a monster...
great verses, don, about how vpw made merchandise of people!
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you... (feigned: pretend, sham, counterfeit, disguised) [2 pet. 2:3a]
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive (i.e. fool) the hearts of the simple. [romans 16:18]
what an appropriate description of victor paul wierwille!!
and wings, thanks for your post!
it elucidates the cold, calculating, manipulative nature of vpw's "niceness"...
yep, the problem with twi was vpw!peace to all,
jen-o
Edited by jen-oLink to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
hello again greasespotters!............thanks sunesis!..........yup, my pops was a good man, and when i finally quit twi for good, i had nine years to reconnect with him,....... and it was during those nine years that i enjoyed the best relationship with him that i ever had during the time we got to share together on this earth, and learned more from him than i could have had i continued to allow twi to keep me separate from the serendipitous "birthright" of having him for a father!
fooledagain.........hopefully shazdancer's post answered your questions about twi's destruction of gahagan's political career........(btw shaz........your link to the maine republican convention speech by gahagan one month ago was chilling, to say the least!.......thanks for that)................vic ordered full-time twi employees to campaign for gahagan in that '76 US senate race in maine.....he ordered twi funds to be used to aid that campaign.......he sent people from many different states to maine as "political wows" to canvass and fundraise for gahagan's campaign, and made corps assigments for people to staff that campaign as "volunteers", and some were paid twi employees while they staffed that campaign free-of-charge...........he encouraged way followers around the USA to send money to help fund that campaign.....and, he diverted actual "abundant sharing" funds from twi's coffers to "donate" to that campaign..........those were the specific "less than legal" issues which brought twi's 501©3 tax status into question before the IRS.
sam posted:......."Your right, the more I read the more questions we have. Mine are not about who, what, or where in the twi. It's more about the teachings. Am I naive to believe the Word? I find such joy in it, but I don't want to be guided the wrong way. I'm too old to start twi's teaching again if it is all bologne! I need some guidance. I continue to study daily, but now am leary of staying with twi. Please help me, any beliver in the Good News. Sam "...........now that's poignant!!.............those questions are difficult for me to answer for you sam.......it's time for you to answer them for yourself, and you can start with what YOU believe "the word" is, and WHY you believe it......we all know twis answers to those questions, but their answers are wrong, imo....but, that's my opinion, based on my personal study and review of everything vic taught, once i decided to leave twi......i was 36 years old when i left, with three young children (oldest was 7 at the time), no job, no place to live, and feeling pretty alone out there in that "big, bad, world"!......but, the exhileration of regaining my FREEDOM overpowered any fears i may have harbored!.......imho, you are never too old to stop learning and asking questions.............one thing i will say......."staying with twi" most certainly is not an answer you should come up with!..........
there are many, many, threads, posts, links, etc., here at the spot that will help you answer questions for yourself, at your own pace.........plus, there are tons of folks here who have been where you are right now, and who are more than willing to help you via dialogue, discussion, debate, and compassionate understanding.......stick around for awhile.........there's tons of stuff to read, view, and listen to here, and there will be no one insisting that you believe a certain way......that may be something you'll have to adjust to.......you get to decide what you believe and why.........never give up that right/responsibilty again!.........enjoy pawtucket's world famous "reality blend" here at the spot........it's my personal favorite, and the refills are free!.........it may be really strong, and sometimes hard to swallow, but......it's definitely the best cup-o-joe available in the brave new world of cyberspace information about twi and its offshoots/splinters!.................sit back, relax, and enjoy reclaiming your critical thinking processes.........and your freedom from the insanity and bondage which twi is!...............peace.
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
If you mean "am I naive to just accept everything twi said about the Bible?"
If that's what you mean, then, yes, you ARE naive.
If you mean "Am I naive because I believe the Bible is God's Word?"
That's a cornerstone (depending on how it's meant) of Christianity.
Many survivors of twi read the Bible, think for themselves, and trust God.
Sometimes they agree with something vpw said, ("Mary is the mother of Jesus"),
and sometimes they don't ("what you believe, you receive.")
Generally, you can find a Christian of nearly every opinion SOMEWHERE on this site.
(Including the ones who think vpw was a nice guy.)
If you believe the Bible, do like the Bereans. When they were taught, they searched
the Scriptures daily, to see if what they were taught lined up with the Bible.
Oh, and sometimes we can disagree but still respect each other, and sometimes we can
overlook minor doctrinal differences in favor of the big picture.
(Don't pretend they don't exist-just don't fixate on them, is all.)
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Don'tWorry, many thanks for recounting the story of your father hearing tongues with interpretation at a Rye service, and knowing the translations. I had heard that story from someone else back then, and always wondered if it was apocryphal. I was a wide-eyed young high schooler zooming down to Rye Presb. from CT, via HK's wheels in those days. Interesting to know that there was something going on that was more than "loshanta!"
Yes, I also got a whoa! out of hearing Gahagan speech. The more things change, the more they remain the same....
Thanks,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
Well just to be the cynic, I wouldn't put it past vp, in his efforts to impress and win over good old dad, to put a couple folks in the audience to speak in their tongue they knew and give the interpretation. I knew an educated guy that used to always "speak in tongues" in his native language, then give the english version. Pretty convenient really.
And I wonder the point of the tongues and interpretation anyway ... if there is some reason for the tongues part to be unknown, why would God give out tongues that were known in this instance? Twice?
And it makes no sense to me ... when they say what is the profit if there is no interpretation ... I say what is the profit even with the interpretation? It's funny the questions that pop up when you remove divine authority from the Bible (or from the person teaching you the Bible)
Anyway ... just letting Sam know there are a variety of opinions here :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
Well, this thread gets my vote for being a "must read" for all the information and insight being shared here!!! Whew! A lot of details I never knew...
And I think the people who have shared how Vic sought out those who could benefit HIM in some way (either sexually or monitarily, or because they had some influence or skill he thought he could hijack for twi) are exposing the true core of the man. He was a con artist; a really, reallly good one. And that kind of person is selfish to the extreme (to the end that it never even occurs to them that others don't also want what is best for THEM at all times), and they are a master at being whatever they need to be to get what they want. Period. In my opinion, any goodness or kindness VP showed to others was simply one more tool in his toolbox; just another means to an end that benefitted himself.
I'm going to repeat something I posted on another thread because I think it is pertinent to understanding VP, and why so many of us joined twi:
I know someone who fell in love, got married, and tied up her finances very quickly with a guy she thought was everything she was looking for, only to find out there wasn't a single thing he had told her about himself that had been the truth!! (not his age, his background, work history, financial history, family ties... nothing) In the time it took her to figure that out, he'd eaten through her life savings and put her deeply into debt. She divorced him. But she can't get over him. Why not? Because she can't let go of what he was like in the beginning. He was kind, caring, thoughtful, generous... and she keeps saying she doesn't understand where that man went? She really cannot bring herself to face the fact that this was just a mask hiding the real person inside -- the selfish, callous, mean, violent man she saw after they were married. She keeps looking for a REASON for the change, and will not admit that no change happened, just a lifting of the mask.
And that is the hardest thing for folks to "get"... that the chances of this kind of person doing good things because it was the right thing, or the kind thing to do, is pretty slim. It just isn't within them to think that way. They know that it is a way to reel people in to their circle of influence, so they do it. But the minute they see no need to be nice, the mask comes off and the kindness is gone. Folks say there were two sides to VP... to which I say, yes: the narcicist inside and the false mask outside.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"Shills" are an age old reality in the business of professional theatre, especially when a production is new and large quantities of cash are on the line.
It certainly does seem peculiar that VP not only remembered the incident four years after the fact but that he conveniently found a way to incorporate the incident into conversation at an especially critical moment during what was essentially a sales pitch.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
I also saw it used by TWI another place ... more crudely. Clauddete travelling with the black quartet, told the story of being on the WOW field, what is the thing that bugs you most about the guys ... and pretty peggio from the audience yells, "not putting the toilet seat down". Rather obviously staged ... but it got a laugh. Clauddete says "right" and does her sitting on the cold seat spiel.
Maybe vp taught them how well shills can work. Maybe it was common practice. (maybe that's a new thread :))
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I can and will tell you as a matter of stated fact that "shill witnessing" was promoted by TWI.
It was an especially popular method to use when mall-witnessing. Lots of malls have "no solicitation" rules, but, impromptu conversations among (what appear to be) strangers are permitted. It's a perfect method of circumventing that little technicality.
It's as old as the very art of "hucksterism". (Is that a real word?)
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
HA! I never gave that much thought (even though I saw that particular routine TWICE). In retrospect I can see how so much of what we thought was spontaneous ad-libs by "Joyful Noise" or the "Take a Stand Caravan" or whatever event-du-jour we were currently disrupting our lives to attend was simply well-choreographed performance art (or - sometimes - not that well choreographed). Yeah, all that "in-spirit-action" going on, huh? pfffffft...
We were such chumps...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Thanks, Don't for the thoughtful response to my post. I suppose it's hard for me to comprehend the seduction of VP. I never felt like I was "special" or getting preferential treatment while I was in The Way. But looking back in hindsight, I do see instances of being the "exception" to the rules. Every so often during my in-rez years, I would get accused of being VP's "pet." Of course, I highly resented the accusations at the time, and really didn't see the special little "benefits" I was afforded. Neither was I aware of the dulpicitous morality.
And I suppose my brother and I both marrying into families who were very supportive of our involvement, and who also were known as being generous and hospitable and "faithful to the ministry," just reinforced the double standard.
The interesting thing is, when news broke in the mid 80's of the rampant abuses of people, power and position, we all left en masse, as did many other families. I suppose we had the advantage of comparing notes, and discussing things with an older generation whose lives were not totally wrapped up in which church or ("ministry") we supported.
I guess that's why we pretty easily quit twig and went to church, all in one breath, more or less. :o Funny though, how all these years later, wierd doctrinal leftovers from The Way rear their ugly heads, in conversation. But I suppose it's not that different than the Catholic teaching that was inbred in all of us from our Catholic educations. Those things sometimes come up as well.
Thanks for the insight, Don't. I know we have discussed these things before, but I thought it might be beneficial to do so here, in front of Jesus and everybody. By the way, this year's BBQ is definitely on. Is it too early to advertize? ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.