How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?

[Linda Z]

DWBH, thanks for filling in so many blanks. I must not have gone to that "Way presents" thing, or I'm sure I'd remember it. I have a vague recollection of having been in the "McN camp" for a short while after he got dumped, so maybe I opted not to go. I was initially pretty pi$$ed off that Bill was replaced, but I was too new and too naive to realize he'd been hijacked until years later.

You're right about DD and JD becoming the Cleve and Lorain branch leaders. I don't remember what was going on in Lorain before that, but I do know DD had some big shoes to fill in Cleveland. Bill McN was extremely charismatic, mature, wise, loving. Dave, God bless him, was a young kid with a suit and a legalistic streak.

In retrospect of course, it all makes sense that Bill McN got the same treatment as Heefner and Doop once the Cleveland area was booming, and that it coincided with the institution of the Way Tree hierarchy.

[oldiesman]

Some of you seem to be forgetting that it was early VP/twi research and teaching and fellowship that bonded all the good stuff together and greatly contributed to "the ministry of Doop", "the ministry of Heefner", "the ministry of McN". That's why these early fellowships flourished, because of the simple love and believing of the good seed which was PFAL and other teachings taught by Wierwille and others. It was the love and believing and practical application of the true doctrine that was the nourishment that sustained and made available the true revival, working in coordination with Jesus and the holy spirit. That's why I continue to believe that VP's ministry was of the true God and one of the common denominators of that early revival.

[waysider]

Some of you seem to be forgetting that it was early VP/twi research and teaching and fellowship that bonded all the good stuff together and greatly contributed to "the ministry of Doop", "the ministry of Heefner", "the ministry of McN". That's why these early fellowships flourished, because of the simple love and believing of the good seed which was PFAL and other teachings taught by Wierwille and others. It was the love and believing and practical application of the true doctrine that was the nourishment that sustained and made available the true revival, working in coordination with Jesus and the holy spirit. That's why I continue to believe that VP's ministry was of the true God and one of the common denominators of that early revival.

I see you haven't lost your sense of humor.

[Watered Garden]

Research my rear end!

[Sunesis]

Oldies, I have to disagree. Doop, Heefner, Frisbee and other mens' ministries were flourishing in California way before VP ever came into the picture.

VP found out about them by reading an article in a large Christian magazine. He decided that summer he'd go take a look.

These men had won thousands to Christ without VP's help.

I find it interesting VP couldn't get Lonnie (who he really wanted), as Lonnie was working with two older men (Martin and Wise?) and they saw through VP pretty quickly.

Jim said they told VP after session 3 of PFAL they could not work with him and left.

Now I see, regarding Legalism in this movement, Jim told me he thought the Republican right wing fundies were one of the direct results of the Jesus movement. Many of the kids and their leaders became very legalistic over the years. I'm not saying I agree, but he seems to think they are a direct result of the Jesus movement. Interesting.

Jim still lived by grace - every other sentence, he would say, its grace, its grace, its grace! He loved Jesus Christ personally and was awed at his grace towards him. He hated the legalism he saw in Christianity and what had happened in TWI.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Sunesis

[coolchef]

oldies,

you also seem to forget that vpee stole most of his material that he passed off as the boring pfal

[mstar1]

I have nothing specific to add to the topic, I did however think this was a very interesting and thought provoking statement that bears repeating

the Republican right wing fundies were one of the direct results of the Jesus movement.

There is more than I would want to extrapolate in ashort post embedded in that statement, but it is very telling

[now I see]

Sunesis, according to the documentary on Frisbee, he spawned what is now the Vinyard Ministry and Calvary Chapel, both of which were floundering churches until Lonnie infused new life from his ministry of the hippie jesus movement  into them.  

Lonnie was ripped off by both men in charge of these two churches, his people were stolen and he was corrupted, disparaged and cast out by the men who took over, it mirrors what happened to Heefner, Doop, and McNulty in the hands of vpee.

From what I've read, it was the manifestations that drew Heefner and Doop in, as well as the formulaic teaching of vpee.  

[Sunesis]

Yes, its sad Now I See. Lonnie was kicked out and left to dry by those men. The Vinyard does seem to still be doing well though.

[jen-o]

i don't know who lonnie is, but i think that chuck smith started the calvary chapel movement...

p.s. and i would never compare chuck smith to vpw...

Edited June 6, 2008 by jen-o

[TheHighWay]

Here is a pretty good article about who Lonnie was and the impact he had:

http://www.ocweekly.com/features/features/...us-freak/19081/

and here's a site dedicated to him:

http://www.lonniefrisbee.com/faq/

Edited June 6, 2008 by TheHighWay

[now I see]

Chuck Smith did start the Calvary Church which was a conservative, small ministry before Lonnie came.  The Vinyard and Calvary Chapel have all but rewritten their church history to obliterate any mention of Lonnie Frisbee, to whom they owe their congregation and livelyhood.  

The documentary mentioned earlier is called "Lonnie Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher", which also has lots of information on the whole Jesus Movement of which our beloved Jimmy Doop and Steve Heefner were founders and leaders of the initial outreach.

[now I see]

No one is all bad all the time, he was a very manipulative, calculating, cold man a good deal of the time, but he did teach the bible at other times.

i will have to think about this some more, but right now i am leaning in favor of there being some folks who are "bad all the time"...

so then the question becomes: was vpw one of them?

i think vpw was a false prophet/false teacher...

so i would say: yes!

Hi Jen-o,

my statement of no one is bad all the time, is related to individuals who aren't vp apologists stating how he was kind and good to them or others at times, and if he was dark all the time no one would have followed him.  Just a simple observation.  Now what was his motivation?  Overall it was money, power, sex, and accolaide, whether he was that 100% of the time, I don't know since I didn't know him on a day to day basis, I only saw his public persona.  A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, biblically, his leaven was anti-God, anti-love, mean and evil.

Peace to you...

Edited June 6, 2008 by now I see

[Sunesis]

Lonnie was friends with Doop and Heefner and one of my relatives by marriage who was a TWI "Rev." was also good friends with him in CA. Doop, Heefner, Lonnie - they were all the "foundations" of the Jesus movement. That's why I originally called Jim, who I did not know, to find out the "history" of the movement and get his impressions, incidents, etc. of Lonnie. I thought, we have living men here who God worked with, let's talk to them before its too late.

Don't you ever wish you could have talked to Paul, Peter, Bullinger, George Muller, Watchman Nee, etc. - other men of God whom God gave wonderful ministries to? It was a historic revival, I wanted to talk to the original foundational "pillars" before they passed away. I'm glad I did.

[TheHighWay]

I wanted to talk to the original foundational "pillars" before they passed away. I'm glad I did.

Have you ever put the contents of that dialog down in writing? (sorry if you've already covered this) I would love to read it.

[JavaJane]

The Vinyard and Calvary Chapel have all but rewritten their church history to obliterate any mention of Lonnie Frisbee, to whom they owe their congregation and livelyhood.

Funny how that works, isn't it? Just re-write what you don't like and POOF! twi has done the same thing with the whole LCM affair... just never mention it, and it all goes away. (Not that I would compare Lonnie Frisbee and LCM in any way, shape, or form!!)

[now I see]

sunesis,

I emailed Jimmy the week before he passed away, little did I know he was so sick and that he didn't use his computer too much, should have called him, I'm still kicking myself for that....

There is a transcript to the book he was writing, I too would love to have a copy, T*d Wise and Sandi and Steve H*efner are still with us, they still live in the Bay Area.  The Lonnie Documentary credits Wise as still operating outside the normal "christian" box.

[jen-o]

well... i am not an apologist for chuck smith...

or for any MAN...

and i think that looking to find a MAN to credit the "jesus movement" with is the wrong approach...

imo, God is the one who gets the credit for this movement...

but i hardly think that church history needs to be "rewritten" due to a man who was involved for only 4 years (according to one of the links)

calvary chapel is still going strong 40 years later and there are calvary chapels all over the world...

so i think it is quite an exaggeration to say that cc "owes it's livelihood and congregation" to one man...

also, according to the first link, lonnie is the one who decided to leave calvary chapel... after he came back a year later, lonnie was rehired by calvary chapel... but "it didn't work," and lonnie decided to "move on"... i only mention this because someone said that lonnie's "people were stolen" and that lonnie was cast out of these 2 churches... (btw, i don't believe that people belong to a man)

i do think that the movie link, especially, over-romanticizes the contribution of men... specifically, one man...

of course, both links are written with their own slant...

still, i don't think they portrayed lonnie in such a favorable light... the movie link portrayed lonnie as an extremely "bitter" man... and the other link showed him caught up in the "frenzy-like" emotional experiences of "signs and wonders"...

Edited June 7, 2008 by jen-o

[DontWorryBeHappy]

hello fellow greasespotters!...........this has been an interesting thread!..........lots of interesting and informative posts!..............thanks folks!

i never met lonnie frisbee or mr. wise..................but i did know jimmy doop and steve heefner........and, of those two, i spent much more time with steve than with jimmy..........i spent a lot of time with steve while he was in the way east.....i was one of only five "full-time employees" of the way of long island in late 1971 through the spring of 1972, when vic "took over" the way east..........steve produced the first pressed down album, and flew steve perez and i out to ohio to participate in the recording of that album.......and that experience was one of the most fun times i ever experienced during my 16 years in twi!!........so many of the songs on that album were written prior to any involvement with twi on the part of the writers of those songs!...........while we lived in a "hippie commune" in the fort greene section of brooklyn during the calendar year 0f 1970........when pressed down, shaken together and running over were known as the band "streetapple", in nyc, ny.........in the fall of 1970, we all got involved with twi via the first fellowships on long island, and many of those songs underwent lyric changes which reflected the conversion, "born again" experiences we shared..........

in all the time i shared with steve h. during those 2 years, never once did i hear him say anything close to "taking credit" for being a "founding member" or "inaugurator" of the "jesus movement" of the late 1960's and early '70's.............there were very few conversations concerning the house of acts experiences in california in the late '60's.......and those conversations revolved around humorous experiences which the doop's and heefner's shared together during those days in the bay area........fond memories of their time together without the poison of vic's "ministry" among them!

i knew jimmy while he was in the first "special corps", later termed family corps 1, which was in-rez with the 5th corps at twi hq in 1974-75..........a year during which vic taught ephesians to the in-rez corps, covertly and overtly pushing his personal sexual perversities and "doctrines" upon those assembled before him at hq, while the 4th corps was "pioneering" the first "interim year" of what was to be the "new" 3-year version of the way corps.......when the heefner's were canned in march, 1972, they briefly lived in westchester county, ny, and steve worked as a dj on wcbs, fm in nyc.......they later moved back to the bay area of ca, and never had anything to do with twi again.........however, after the public "disgrace" of the way presents in california, jimmy and judi returned to twi, and were a part of the corps i mentioned previously...........then, upon "recognition" (as opposed to "graduation"), in august 1975, they went to maine, as lc's, where they again were part of a "revival" which led to the whole "political wow" campaign centered around twi's attempt to get maine state senator, hayes gahagan, elected to the US senate.........a very controversial period in twi history, which almost cost vic his "501©3", religious organization tax-exempt status!...........because of "illegal" political activity by twi in gahagan's US senate campaign..........it also spawned twi's "blessings of liberty" class, taught by gahagan originally, and later "carjacked" by tom jenkinson, 6th corps grad, after gahagan lost that '76 US senate campaign.........

never once did i ever here jimmy doop ever say anything close to "taking credit" for being one of the "founders" of the "jesus movement"........as a matter of fact, i never heard jimmy even mention the house of acts, or anything else that he was part of in his days before twi!.........i must say, that jimmy was a truly humble man, in my dealings with him, and, i believe he was horribly "used" and abused by vic because jimmy so wanted to "do the right thing" for god..........for whatever reason i'm not aware of, vic seemed to me to take some kind of perverse pleasure in manipulating and "playing" jimmy with his (vic's) sexual peccadilloes and predilections, thinking that jimmy and judi were somehow involved in or pre-disposed to "free love/sex" in the bay area revival of the late 1960's.........and the doop's suffered deeply at vic's hands because of this presumption on vic's part!!

the utter horror of vic's intensely pathological "ministry" had a sadly profound effect on the doop's.........an effect from which, imho, they never fully recovered........steve and sandi fared much better because they never came back to twi, to their credit and benefit.....but, they also had to endure "the wrath of vic' and his vindictive and vicious betrayal of their genuine christian heart!........by the grace of god, they survived vic's "ministry" "better" than jim and judi did........

i loved the heefner's and the doop's!.......i still hold them all in high regard for what they "did for god", and i suspect i always will.........i have the fondest memories of my times with them, and i am thankful that our paths crossed in this life...........feelings i DO NOT have for any time i spent with vic, or king okie, or geer, or anyone else in twi leadership i worked with...........jimmy's dead, and i don't know where judi or steve and sandi are today........but i wish them nothing but the best...........and i say, "thank you" to them, and wish them god's blessings, and............................peace.

[RumRunner]

I considered just PMing you DWBH - but thought others might like to know about Jimmy's last days. I spoke with him on the phone about two weeks before his passing away. He was tired - but if I say the same friendly upbeat Jimmy you will know what I mean. We spoke of a lot of things including the 70's in TWI. He was not bitter - nor was he apologetic. He was just Jimmy. I got an interesting earful - which I will most certainly not repeat in a public thread - but dunno how else to say it - he was just Jimmy. Perhaps 'nuff said - if you wanna talk on the phone about the conversation PM me and I will call you - I have unlimited US long distance.

[now I see]

for whatever reason i'm not aware of, vic seemed to me to take some kind of perverse pleasure in manipulating and "playing" jimmy

That makes me sick, what a monster he was.

[ex10]

If I may but in here, I know I probably don't belong, as I was never an important somebody in The Way. I never had an "important position" but I did spend time with VP, and he wasn't always as is described here.

I appreciate what my friend Don't is saying and others, but I had a different experience. The thing is, VP was not a total monster. If he hadda been, he wouldn't have fooled some really talented, smart people. Is there room in the discussion here for other stuff? There is/was a reason VP fooled people.

Don't, you were fooled for a long time. Why? Pardon my poignancy.

[socks]

Hi folks. I don't have a lot of time this week to get deeply into the topics of this thread, although they deserve the depths that are being plumbed methinks. I worked up a post long enough to choke a horse and decided against putting it up, we need to keep our horses. I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did. There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It's because of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father. It's hard to find the words that really wrap around that but I am always mindful of those who have gone before and been a part of my life's path, as were they.

[jen-o]

hey don!

just to clarify...

i was not insinuating at all that steve or jimmy (or even lonnie) had personally thought of themselves as "founders" of the jesus movement...

or that they had wanted acclaim or accolades for themselves...

(that thought never crossed my mind)

it was really the movie link that made me feel most uncomfortable...

since the author at that site sought to identify the "movers and shakers"...

and stated that lonnie was the "prime mover" and "prima causa" of the jesus movement...

i know this guy is promoting a movie, but i saw some people repeating the logic of this guy...

and i also know that people have a tendency to elevate men and build monuments to them...

that was a major problem in twi...

and i still see it going on with vpw (especially in one offshoot i know of)

so that was the context of my last post...

peace,

jen-o

:)

[jen-o]

I know I probably don't belong, as I was never an important somebody in The Way. I never had an "important position"

huh?

this was the very thing i was trying to address...

ascribing degrees of "importance" to people is not godly...

we are members of the one body of Christ...

there is no hierarchy of importance in a body...

The thing is, VP was not a total monster. If he hadda been, he wouldn't have fooled some really talented, smart people...There is/was a reason VP fooled people.

vpw didn't fool people because there was some "good" in him... vpw fooled people because he was a master of manipulation...

a monster is not less of a monster for fooling people; he is more of a monster...

this is the nature of a false prophet/false teacher...

peace,

jen-o