Yet, *some* want to resurrect it.. and don't view it as a failure at all.. think it was a *marvelous success*.. life must have been "good" for the alpha male and the consorts in the pack.
Get the best sex of your stinking life..
get all the worship and adulation one's heart would ever wish..
I too appreciate your response DWBH. Its obvious, over the years, you have done very serious thinking and reevaluation about this and I always enjoy your thoughts.
As we talked about once here on GS in a very old thread, for those of us in NY, and me as a "groovy Christian of Rye" it was a "true" revival. You are right, it was the fruit in the lives of my friends in High School under Steve Heefner, and his life and ministry that so impressed me - as I saw genuine change in peoples' lives.
I love your thoughts and insight.
I asked a similar question to Jim Doop a few months before he passed away. I asked him if he thought VP was a counterfiet. Jim had loved VP like a father, and said he had treated him like a son - for awhile, until VP consolidated the Way East and Way West and had the money sent to him - breaking the promise he had made to Doop and Heefner and throwing them out and replacing them with his guys. Jim had thought about that particular question over the years. He said he did believe VP was a counterfeit. He also believed a section of the "true" revival of God had been hijacked, so to speak by VP.
... until VP consolidated the Way East and Way West and had the money sent to him - breaking the promise he had made to Doop and Heefner and throwing them out and replacing them with his guys. Jim had thought about that particular question over the years. He said he did believe VP was a counterfeit. He also believed a section of the "true" revival of God had been hijacked, so to speak by VP.
Interesting ... vp managed to win them over to the point he could take over ... it takes a real snake to do that, as I see it. ...no qualms about acting pure, while probably planning his moves the whole time.
My best twi times were very early ('75) Maybe just because it was new, or because the twig guru was so guru like and pure at heart I think ... but much of the rest was struggling for the lord as a WOW ... or enduring for God as corps ... :blink:
in response to Linda below, if vp was capable of real healing, I didn't see it ... but most people have two sides ... the one that wins out most of the time, or when under pressure, is the real man. Aren't abusers especially nice on their "off time"? A "counterfeit" has a genuine look. Any man that willingly wrought the devastation on lives like VP did, has moved pretty far over on the scale toward the "dark side".
DWBH, thanks for taking the time to share all that. I'm sturck by the thought that perhaps your ordination confirms the old adage that says, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then." Sorry to compare you to a nut (although you're a nut in the nicest sort of way!), but what I mean is that some good, loving, genuinely called-by-God people somehow got ordained under the auspices of twi despite whatever else was going on in the organization. You're one of those. There are a few others who hang out at Greasespot I'd put in that category, too--for example, our beloved Socks.
I've thought a lot over the years about the dichotomy between the genuine revival many of us were part of in the early 70s and what we later learned was going on behind the scenes. To me, that revival--and the the excitement and joy, the signs, miracles and wonders it brought--are rock-solid evidence that if your heart is to seek God and help His people, He will reach you no matter what group you're in, no matter how screwed up the people supposedly "above" you in "leadership" roles are, no matter what. God is faithful. Always.
I think another reason the dichotomy existed was because VPW himself was like two people. I'm not just talking about his "stage face" vs. his private demeanor. I'm talking about the times when he was genuinely loving and kind vs. the times when he let his lust and his greed and ill temper lead him to mistreat and abuse God's precious people.
There were times when he ministered genuine healing (I know this because he did so both to me after I'd been badly injured in a car accident on my way to ROA '72 and to my son, who was forever after that day free of the frequent, severe ear infections he'd had throughout his 14 years up to that point). And then, in stark contrast, there were times when he claimed to be "ministering" to someone's broken heart when he was actually causing more heartbreak, for his own selfish gratification.
Oy vey! No wonder any discussion about VPW quickly turns into a heated battle. Some people don't want to let go of the only slightly tarnished MOG image they have of him, and others don't want to acknowledge that he ever did one thing that was genuinely positive and good. There's quite a chasm between those two views! What bridges them for me is this: I believe VPW's ego and lust often got the better of him, but when that wasn't happening, he was capable of love and genuine spiritual insight.
That's as far as I try to analyze it; I figure anything beyond that--getting into his motives and whether he was really a Christian at all, and similar topics of speculation--is better left to God.
I asked a similar question to Jim Doop a few months before he passed away. I asked him if he thought VP was a counterfiet. Jim had loved VP like a father, and said he had treated him like a son - for awhile, until VP consolidated the Way East and Way West and had the money sent to him - breaking the promise he had made to Doop and Heefner and throwing them out and replacing them with his guys. Jim had thought about that particular question over the years. He said he did believe VP was a counterfeit. He also believed a section of the "true" revival of God had been hijacked, so to speak by VP.
Sunesis,
I've been wondering for a long time about that event in the TWI timeline. You came out of NY, I came out of CA. Early 70's. Friends of mine used to speak about VP making an unannounced visit to the state, sort of surprising them at one of their meetings; but behaving aggressively to claim the ministry as his, not theirs. Since I wasn't there to see it, it disappeared into the place of vague memory. I guess it's not a question about clergy ordination, so it's off topic. Sorry ... but anybody know about this?
Tragically, other members of the House of Acts saw their ministry's ruthlessly taken over by the older, floundering clergy men who mentored them. Â
Such actions didn't entirely stop the movement of God's Word, but the leaven that was ministered to their people by these wolves in sheep's clothing leavened the whole lump, and turned the initial Jesus Movement people toward religious legalism and away from the original God seeking purity instilled by Heefner, Doop, Wise, Frisbee, et al.
Wing, yes, the meeting you are thinking of is the meeting VP suddenly convened on the west coast, threw out Doop and put his men in there. Doop said it was a great betrayal - that was his word, betrayal.
I believe that VP purposely allowed the men with the ministries, Doop on the west coast and Heefner on the east, to do the work for him. He sat back, let them win the people, grow the areas, i.e., do the work he, as an older man, never could have done - i.e, win the kids. When VP found his new loyal yes men, I believe it was calculated. He let the men do the work, then when it was growing and the money was starting to really flow, he stepped in, dismissed them, put Moynihan in NY and I don't know who it was in CA. Then he laughed all the way to the bank. The little keeds making him wealthy.
LindaZ, you are right, Socks, DWBH and several others were true gems - and still are!
Thanks Sunesis. About spring/summer of 72 Del was put in charge, but who he replaced I don't remember. Like you I was just a kid. There weren't many limb functions going on before Del got there.
At about the same time, there was a guy in Cleveland(Bill Mc.) who was somewhat like a counterpart of these guys. He had developed quite a large group of devoted followers. I strongly suspect he also disagreed with the centralization of funds. He was given the bum's rush in short order. The whole Cleveland movement almost fell apart as a result. There was a lot of damage control.
I recall that the public reasons given for Bill McN's getting the boot were that his wife was running things in their house and that she was too overboard on natural remedies, health food and such. There was a lot of that going around. I remember some young girls deciding soap was bad and they would only bathe and wash their hair in plain water and wouldn't use deodorant. Eww.
I remember clearly that the McN's and VP disagreed about spanking children.
I liked Bill a lot. I found his wife a little cold. I went to one or two meetings at their house after he was no longer twi's area leader, but I don't recall him saying anything about twi's handling of the money. Of course it was a zillion years ago, so I might just be forgetting.
I'm sturck by the thought that perhaps your ordination confirms the old adage that says, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then." Sorry to compare you to a nut (although you're a nut in the nicest sort of way!), but what I mean is that some good, loving, genuinely called-by-God people somehow got ordained under the auspices of twi despite whatever else was going on in the organization.
linda, imho (or maybe in my not so humble opinion... LOL), vpw had no business ordaining anybody... what was the purpose of "ordaining" folks anyway?... it was an ungodly practice that elevated some members of the body of Christ over others... all members of the body of Christ are "genuinely called-by-God"... the practice of ordination merely helped to create a hierarchy among God's people... with accompanying comparisons about the level of "spirituality" among the individual members... twi was seeped in the doctrine of the nicolaitans, which Jesus states HE hates!... in my experience, God moved more freely when there was no hierarchy and all the folks in my twig were just leaves...
There were times when he ministered genuine healing
you were genuinely healed, but i doubt that it had anything to do with vpw...
what does it mean to "minister genuine healing"?
God heals!
the person praying has no power!
I believe VPW's ego and lust often got the better of him, but when that wasn't happening, he was capable of love and genuine spiritual insight.
i totally disagree with this statement...
vpw had as much spiritual insight as balaam!
check out 2 Peter 2:13-22 for a description of vpw...
this kind of person is not capable of spiritual insight...
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness,
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
Just a small addendum to what don't said about corps week. It started in '78 although it wasn't yet called corps week. All the graduating 6th, as well as "corps grads on the field" came a few days early to HQ. My recollection as a lowly staff member at the time, is that it was mass chaos, and we were not prepared for the influx. I know, I worked housekeeping just for the blessed event, and was in charge of the OSC bathrooms. :blink: and the laundry room.
Not to mention, I lived in Unit 26, (mostly reserved for "guest housing") and was unceremoniously locked out of my bedroom with my stuff dumped in the hallway, as I wasn't corps. Never mind that I had worked and lived there and it was my 'assigned staff housing". I never did find my pillow.
hey there waysider and lindaZ!..........yeah........mcnulty....cleveland...........early 70's...........IIRC, bill was close with dave anderson who was from up in your neck of the woods.......the former "extension and outreach coordinator" of twi......the man behind the filming/taping of "the class", who resigned in dissention and disgust in 1973, betrayed and bamboozled by vic...........bill had a nice thing goin' up there in northern ohio...........kaderly's in ashtabula...........lots of nice folks!!
in my first year in-rez, in the early fall of '73, vic put together a quick little way productions group for a big meeting vic was doing in cleveland with and for earl burton, the lc of ohio..........they "billed it" it as a kinda "way presents" type of rally.........installing the new, "official", vic endorsed "way tree structure" for the home limb of twi hq.........the "northern ohio branch" which mcnulty's thing had been called, was now gonna be the new, "right on" way tree set-up..........dave daniel*s was to be a branc leader, in cleveland, and jim dufal*a was to be the branch leader in lorrain, and there may have been another person doing another branch or twig-area up there somewhere, in the place of what mcnulty's set-up was.........no mention was ever made of bill and the works he had done for twi up there.........neither vic nor burton ever told us "younger corps" what the story was.........but, having known what happened at "the way presents" in california in early '72, where howard and vic walked right down the middle of the aisle of the packed auditorium, up to the podium, and "announced" the "departure" of jimmy doop from the way west, and installing del duncan as the first lc of the way of ca............and, having been present at the open sunday night session of the ac in rye, ny in march,1972, when vic and howard did basically the same thing to steve heefner and the way east, installing bob moynihan as the first lc of the way of ny..........i kinda put 2 and 2 together as to what was going on "behind the scenes"........
that trip was memorable because we all flew to cleveland in some cramped, crappy little twin engine plane with vic and dotsie.........the way productions group was ted ferrel, claudettee, dean ellenwoo*d, richie dibartol*o, ken mca*w, and myself......along with vic, dotsie and howard..........and, on our approach to the cleveland airport, our little, crappy plane hit a thunderstorm and the turbulence made richie so sick that he vomitted his guts out into his bible cover, and all over his new suit!........in full view of all of us......for it seemed like forever!!............we tried our best not to laugh, but i could'nt help myself........the entire scene was so absurd!!..........anyway........we did a "meet'n'greet" with the limb staff and the "new way tree leaders" at some nice restaurant, and then went on to do the meeting thing...........the next morning, minus ted, the rest of us flew to sheboygan, wi, to meet up with don and wanda wierwille, and attend the homecoming football game at lakeland mission house college and seminary, of which vic was an alumnus..........vic had arranged for our little way prod group to play at the alumni association's homecoming dance for the students...........so, we put together 2 hour long sets of cover tunes and played the homecoming dance at vic's alma mater in the fall of 1973!.........that was the first time i ever met don, who was an elementary school principal somewhere up there in wisconsin...........what a strange trip that was!............
no one was ever told, at that meeting in cleveland, or in any other public meeting, about "whatever happened to" the mcnulty's, and all the work they had done for twi in cleveland, and northern ohio....why they left, or even that they left...........it was all done "behind the scenes", orchestrated by and controlled by vic and howard, with the usual not-so-subtle slander, innuendo, false accusations, and, of course, the "requisite rumours" of devil spirit activity and possession, another vic-designed act of "betrayal" as jimmy doop described what was done to him and judi in ca, to sunesis,........... and as i had witnessed the same done to steve and sandi in the way east, and as i experienced myself in the winter of 1986-87!............the goal was always the same............get the money directly to the mog, and centralize control and command to new knoxville!.........and, by all means necessary, cover it all up, spin it vic's way and cover his big, fat, lying, perverted arse!!...........for this was, after all, "the wonderful, matchless, word and will of god"!!..........once again, the "ministry of the teacher" rising up AGAINST the ministry of reconciliation, the ministry of jesus christ himself,.......choking the life out of the "good seed" revivals by sowing "the tares" of "the teacher" among them, stifling genuine "spiritual fruit", and palming off the rotten fruit of that rotten way tree, as "the real deal".................to twi, and all its rotten offshoots, and all those splinters from its rotted way tree.............ENOUGH ALREADY!!!...............................peace.
I think a lot of what vpee did was in the elevation of the flesh category.
II Cor 5:16 Â "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."
As to vpee's motivation there probably was an ulterior motive in "ordaining" many in twi, as was in many of his day to day actions. Â
No one is all bad all the time, he was a very manipulative, calculating, cold man a good deal of the time, but he did teach the bible at other times.  Whether his motivation or power came from God or the devil, at any particular time...I dunno...I guess we would have to evaluate each incident on a case by case basis...perhaps on some, we'll never know whether he had an "off day" and actually did something for someone selflessly!  LOL!!.  He sure pulled the wool over our eyes countless times and for many, many years...
Good post DontWorry, you were there and saw vic in his natural element day after day. We sure followed him like sheep...these coups are horrendous, I think God must have been heartbroken over what vpee did to the authentic moving of His Word and to his guiless people!
No one is all bad all the time, he was a very manipulative, calculating, cold man a good deal of the time, but he did teach the bible at other times.
hi now i see!
nice to meet you!
now about this statement... hmmm... i'm not sure about this...
i think it might be possible to "be bad all the time"
i'm thinking aloud here...
the false prophets and false teachers in 2nd peter chapter 2 sound like they are "bad all the time"...
they sound rotten to the core...
false prophets/false teachers do teach the bible although they put their own perverted twist on it...
false prophets/false teachers even do signs and wonders...
Jesus called the pharisees and sadducees a generation of vipers...
and said that they "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men" for they neither entered in themselves nor allowed others to go in either...
that sounds "bad all the time"...
Jesus also called them "whited sepulchres" that looked good on the outside but within was "full of extortion and excess and all uncleaness and wickedness"...
that also sounds "bad all the time"...
i will have to think about this some more, but right now i am leaning in favor of there being some folks who are "bad all the time"...
so then the question becomes: was vpw one of them?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
12
14
14
Popular Days
Jun 4
24
Jun 7
18
Jun 14
18
Jun 8
17
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 15 posts
waysider 12 posts
DontWorryBeHappy 14 posts
wing 14 posts
Popular Days
Jun 4 2008
24 posts
Jun 7 2008
18 posts
Jun 14 2008
18 posts
Jun 8 2008
17 posts
Ham
Yet, *some* want to resurrect it.. and don't view it as a failure at all.. think it was a *marvelous success*.. life must have been "good" for the alpha male and the consorts in the pack.
Get the best sex of your stinking life..
get all the worship and adulation one's heart would ever wish..
Edited by HamLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I too appreciate your response DWBH. Its obvious, over the years, you have done very serious thinking and reevaluation about this and I always enjoy your thoughts.
As we talked about once here on GS in a very old thread, for those of us in NY, and me as a "groovy Christian of Rye" it was a "true" revival. You are right, it was the fruit in the lives of my friends in High School under Steve Heefner, and his life and ministry that so impressed me - as I saw genuine change in peoples' lives.
I love your thoughts and insight.
I asked a similar question to Jim Doop a few months before he passed away. I asked him if he thought VP was a counterfiet. Jim had loved VP like a father, and said he had treated him like a son - for awhile, until VP consolidated the Way East and Way West and had the money sent to him - breaking the promise he had made to Doop and Heefner and throwing them out and replacing them with his guys. Jim had thought about that particular question over the years. He said he did believe VP was a counterfeit. He also believed a section of the "true" revival of God had been hijacked, so to speak by VP.
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
Interesting ... vp managed to win them over to the point he could take over ... it takes a real snake to do that, as I see it. ...no qualms about acting pure, while probably planning his moves the whole time.
My best twi times were very early ('75) Maybe just because it was new, or because the twig guru was so guru like and pure at heart I think ... but much of the rest was struggling for the lord as a WOW ... or enduring for God as corps ... :blink:
in response to Linda below, if vp was capable of real healing, I didn't see it ... but most people have two sides ... the one that wins out most of the time, or when under pressure, is the real man. Aren't abusers especially nice on their "off time"? A "counterfeit" has a genuine look. Any man that willingly wrought the devastation on lives like VP did, has moved pretty far over on the scale toward the "dark side".
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
DWBH, thanks for taking the time to share all that. I'm sturck by the thought that perhaps your ordination confirms the old adage that says, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then." Sorry to compare you to a nut (although you're a nut in the nicest sort of way!), but what I mean is that some good, loving, genuinely called-by-God people somehow got ordained under the auspices of twi despite whatever else was going on in the organization. You're one of those. There are a few others who hang out at Greasespot I'd put in that category, too--for example, our beloved Socks.
I've thought a lot over the years about the dichotomy between the genuine revival many of us were part of in the early 70s and what we later learned was going on behind the scenes. To me, that revival--and the the excitement and joy, the signs, miracles and wonders it brought--are rock-solid evidence that if your heart is to seek God and help His people, He will reach you no matter what group you're in, no matter how screwed up the people supposedly "above" you in "leadership" roles are, no matter what. God is faithful. Always.
I think another reason the dichotomy existed was because VPW himself was like two people. I'm not just talking about his "stage face" vs. his private demeanor. I'm talking about the times when he was genuinely loving and kind vs. the times when he let his lust and his greed and ill temper lead him to mistreat and abuse God's precious people.
There were times when he ministered genuine healing (I know this because he did so both to me after I'd been badly injured in a car accident on my way to ROA '72 and to my son, who was forever after that day free of the frequent, severe ear infections he'd had throughout his 14 years up to that point). And then, in stark contrast, there were times when he claimed to be "ministering" to someone's broken heart when he was actually causing more heartbreak, for his own selfish gratification.
Oy vey! No wonder any discussion about VPW quickly turns into a heated battle. Some people don't want to let go of the only slightly tarnished MOG image they have of him, and others don't want to acknowledge that he ever did one thing that was genuinely positive and good. There's quite a chasm between those two views! What bridges them for me is this: I believe VPW's ego and lust often got the better of him, but when that wasn't happening, he was capable of love and genuine spiritual insight.
That's as far as I try to analyze it; I figure anything beyond that--getting into his motives and whether he was really a Christian at all, and similar topics of speculation--is better left to God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wing
Sunesis,
I've been wondering for a long time about that event in the TWI timeline. You came out of NY, I came out of CA. Early 70's. Friends of mine used to speak about VP making an unannounced visit to the state, sort of surprising them at one of their meetings; but behaving aggressively to claim the ministry as his, not theirs. Since I wasn't there to see it, it disappeared into the place of vague memory. I guess it's not a question about clergy ordination, so it's off topic. Sorry ... but anybody know about this?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Tragically, other members of the House of Acts saw their ministry's ruthlessly taken over by the older, floundering clergy men who mentored them. Â
Such actions didn't entirely stop the movement of God's Word, but the leaven that was ministered to their people by these wolves in sheep's clothing leavened the whole lump, and turned the initial Jesus Movement people toward religious legalism and away from the original God seeking purity instilled by Heefner, Doop, Wise, Frisbee, et al.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Wing, yes, the meeting you are thinking of is the meeting VP suddenly convened on the west coast, threw out Doop and put his men in there. Doop said it was a great betrayal - that was his word, betrayal.
I believe that VP purposely allowed the men with the ministries, Doop on the west coast and Heefner on the east, to do the work for him. He sat back, let them win the people, grow the areas, i.e., do the work he, as an older man, never could have done - i.e, win the kids. When VP found his new loyal yes men, I believe it was calculated. He let the men do the work, then when it was growing and the money was starting to really flow, he stepped in, dismissed them, put Moynihan in NY and I don't know who it was in CA. Then he laughed all the way to the bank. The little keeds making him wealthy.
LindaZ, you are right, Socks, DWBH and several others were true gems - and still are!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
knew a few gals who were sexually into the mog and they got ordained
not sure what gift ministry was chanted over them
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Amen to that!!!!!!
Thanks for sharing all that, Don't Worry Be Happy !
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Excie you knew female clergy who were involved in sexual acts with MOG?? :o
THey should of warned you..
The I mentioned would not of been of this group you speak of, that is for dam sure!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
they should have warned me ? they tried to convert me.....
i'm not talking names here
--
plus i said a long time ago, i'm not going to judge victims, it's all too much
Edited by excathedraLink to comment
Share on other sites
wing
Thanks Sunesis. About spring/summer of 72 Del was put in charge, but who he replaced I don't remember. Like you I was just a kid. There weren't many limb functions going on before Del got there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
At about the same time, there was a guy in Cleveland(Bill Mc.) who was somewhat like a counterpart of these guys. He had developed quite a large group of devoted followers. I strongly suspect he also disagreed with the centralization of funds. He was given the bum's rush in short order. The whole Cleveland movement almost fell apart as a result. There was a lot of damage control.
Any other Cleveburgers recall the details?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Waysider, I only remember a little bit.
I recall that the public reasons given for Bill McN's getting the boot were that his wife was running things in their house and that she was too overboard on natural remedies, health food and such. There was a lot of that going around. I remember some young girls deciding soap was bad and they would only bathe and wash their hair in plain water and wouldn't use deodorant. Eww.
I remember clearly that the McN's and VP disagreed about spanking children.
I liked Bill a lot. I found his wife a little cold. I went to one or two meetings at their house after he was no longer twi's area leader, but I don't recall him saying anything about twi's handling of the money. Of course it was a zillion years ago, so I might just be forgetting.
That's not much, but it's all I've got, Waysider.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
linzee, how did veepee feel about spanking children ? anything close to raising dogs ?
--
also, my friend, while i appreciate what you were saying up above, it might have been YOU god was taking care of
but i don't know if he could "use" veepee ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
what do i know ? nothing
love ya
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Excie, he believed in spanking. Spare the rod and all that.
Love you, too!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i think i remember that linzee, because when i asked him how to raise a child, he recommended a dog book
thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jen-o
what does it mean to "minister genuine healing"?
God heals!
the person praying has no power!
i totally disagree with this statement...vpw had as much spiritual insight as balaam!
check out 2 Peter 2:13-22 for a description of vpw...
this kind of person is not capable of spiritual insight...
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness,
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
peace,
jen-o
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Just a small addendum to what don't said about corps week. It started in '78 although it wasn't yet called corps week. All the graduating 6th, as well as "corps grads on the field" came a few days early to HQ. My recollection as a lowly staff member at the time, is that it was mass chaos, and we were not prepared for the influx. I know, I worked housekeeping just for the blessed event, and was in charge of the OSC bathrooms. :blink: and the laundry room.
Not to mention, I lived in Unit 26, (mostly reserved for "guest housing") and was unceremoniously locked out of my bedroom with my stuff dumped in the hallway, as I wasn't corps. Never mind that I had worked and lived there and it was my 'assigned staff housing". I never did find my pillow.
Ah, yes, fond memories......
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
hey there waysider and lindaZ!..........yeah........mcnulty....cleveland...........early 70's...........IIRC, bill was close with dave anderson who was from up in your neck of the woods.......the former "extension and outreach coordinator" of twi......the man behind the filming/taping of "the class", who resigned in dissention and disgust in 1973, betrayed and bamboozled by vic...........bill had a nice thing goin' up there in northern ohio...........kaderly's in ashtabula...........lots of nice folks!!
in my first year in-rez, in the early fall of '73, vic put together a quick little way productions group for a big meeting vic was doing in cleveland with and for earl burton, the lc of ohio..........they "billed it" it as a kinda "way presents" type of rally.........installing the new, "official", vic endorsed "way tree structure" for the home limb of twi hq.........the "northern ohio branch" which mcnulty's thing had been called, was now gonna be the new, "right on" way tree set-up..........dave daniel*s was to be a branc leader, in cleveland, and jim dufal*a was to be the branch leader in lorrain, and there may have been another person doing another branch or twig-area up there somewhere, in the place of what mcnulty's set-up was.........no mention was ever made of bill and the works he had done for twi up there.........neither vic nor burton ever told us "younger corps" what the story was.........but, having known what happened at "the way presents" in california in early '72, where howard and vic walked right down the middle of the aisle of the packed auditorium, up to the podium, and "announced" the "departure" of jimmy doop from the way west, and installing del duncan as the first lc of the way of ca............and, having been present at the open sunday night session of the ac in rye, ny in march,1972, when vic and howard did basically the same thing to steve heefner and the way east, installing bob moynihan as the first lc of the way of ny..........i kinda put 2 and 2 together as to what was going on "behind the scenes"........
that trip was memorable because we all flew to cleveland in some cramped, crappy little twin engine plane with vic and dotsie.........the way productions group was ted ferrel, claudettee, dean ellenwoo*d, richie dibartol*o, ken mca*w, and myself......along with vic, dotsie and howard..........and, on our approach to the cleveland airport, our little, crappy plane hit a thunderstorm and the turbulence made richie so sick that he vomitted his guts out into his bible cover, and all over his new suit!........in full view of all of us......for it seemed like forever!!............we tried our best not to laugh, but i could'nt help myself........the entire scene was so absurd!!..........anyway........we did a "meet'n'greet" with the limb staff and the "new way tree leaders" at some nice restaurant, and then went on to do the meeting thing...........the next morning, minus ted, the rest of us flew to sheboygan, wi, to meet up with don and wanda wierwille, and attend the homecoming football game at lakeland mission house college and seminary, of which vic was an alumnus..........vic had arranged for our little way prod group to play at the alumni association's homecoming dance for the students...........so, we put together 2 hour long sets of cover tunes and played the homecoming dance at vic's alma mater in the fall of 1973!.........that was the first time i ever met don, who was an elementary school principal somewhere up there in wisconsin...........what a strange trip that was!............
no one was ever told, at that meeting in cleveland, or in any other public meeting, about "whatever happened to" the mcnulty's, and all the work they had done for twi in cleveland, and northern ohio....why they left, or even that they left...........it was all done "behind the scenes", orchestrated by and controlled by vic and howard, with the usual not-so-subtle slander, innuendo, false accusations, and, of course, the "requisite rumours" of devil spirit activity and possession, another vic-designed act of "betrayal" as jimmy doop described what was done to him and judi in ca, to sunesis,........... and as i had witnessed the same done to steve and sandi in the way east, and as i experienced myself in the winter of 1986-87!............the goal was always the same............get the money directly to the mog, and centralize control and command to new knoxville!.........and, by all means necessary, cover it all up, spin it vic's way and cover his big, fat, lying, perverted arse!!...........for this was, after all, "the wonderful, matchless, word and will of god"!!..........once again, the "ministry of the teacher" rising up AGAINST the ministry of reconciliation, the ministry of jesus christ himself,.......choking the life out of the "good seed" revivals by sowing "the tares" of "the teacher" among them, stifling genuine "spiritual fruit", and palming off the rotten fruit of that rotten way tree, as "the real deal".................to twi, and all its rotten offshoots, and all those splinters from its rotted way tree.............ENOUGH ALREADY!!!...............................peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Jen,
I think a lot of what vpee did was in the elevation of the flesh category.
II Cor 5:16 Â "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."
As to vpee's motivation there probably was an ulterior motive in "ordaining" many in twi, as was in many of his day to day actions. Â
No one is all bad all the time, he was a very manipulative, calculating, cold man a good deal of the time, but he did teach the bible at other times.  Whether his motivation or power came from God or the devil, at any particular time...I dunno...I guess we would have to evaluate each incident on a case by case basis...perhaps on some, we'll never know whether he had an "off day" and actually did something for someone selflessly!  LOL!!.  He sure pulled the wool over our eyes countless times and for many, many years...
Edited by now I seeLink to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
ooopppps!!!..............deleted to avoid double post!.............sowwy!................peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
Good post DontWorry, you were there and saw vic in his natural element day after day. We sure followed him like sheep...these coups are horrendous, I think God must have been heartbroken over what vpee did to the authentic moving of His Word and to his guiless people!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jen-o
nice to meet you!
now about this statement... hmmm... i'm not sure about this...
i think it might be possible to "be bad all the time"
i'm thinking aloud here...
the false prophets and false teachers in 2nd peter chapter 2 sound like they are "bad all the time"...
they sound rotten to the core...
false prophets/false teachers do teach the bible although they put their own perverted twist on it...
false prophets/false teachers even do signs and wonders...
Jesus called the pharisees and sadducees a generation of vipers...
and said that they "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men" for they neither entered in themselves nor allowed others to go in either...
that sounds "bad all the time"...
Jesus also called them "whited sepulchres" that looked good on the outside but within was "full of extortion and excess and all uncleaness and wickedness"...
that also sounds "bad all the time"...
i will have to think about this some more, but right now i am leaning in favor of there being some folks who are "bad all the time"...
so then the question becomes: was vpw one of them?
i think vpw was a false prophet/false teacher...
so i would say: yes!
peace,
jen-o
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.