Depends. The person may have been a victim then became a participant.
Mind you, many people who MOLEST other people were molested themselves. So, if a child is molested by a person who was molested, do we go after the molester three generations back? Or is each molester responsible for their own actions?
If you go out and "round people up to present to a molester" then you are participating, IMO. Then, you are to blame even if you started out as a victim.
Example:
Picture your kids. They tell you they were molested who are you mad at? The person who molested your kid? Or the person in 1920 who molested a kid, who grew to molest a kid, who grew to molest your child?
Yet it has to stop and years ago the laws didnt have a clue of the damage that was done.
Now we understand.
it has to stop.
make an example of my child no one wants to accept that on a personal level Yet it has to stop and this is the only way if you truly believe that is WHY they molest.
I do not think that is the reason in many cases.
and also if that theory is so true the victims or girls have to be accountable to being atracted to molesters as well .
I am not into these cut and dry this is because of that reasoning.
but if you are then admit it has to stop some where.
That is the point! Good for you! The molesting has to stop somewhere. This abuse excuse lets it go on and on. Passing the buck to the molester that molested the boy who grew into the priest who molested "your son." (so we go back to 200 B.C. for the very first time it happened and let everyone else off the hook? I do not think so.)
I don't care if you were abused if you abuse my kid I hold you responsible. Now, once that person is in custody, we can get that person some help as well.
I have friends who had alcoholocs as parents and they SWORE it would not happen to them -- Now here they are either married to one or one themselves. Who is responsible? Who is driving to the store, buying it and drinking it? That person is held accountable for passing it on. They need to make a decision to stop it NOW and never drink. Because it is something that is a family weakness and the person has to rise up and say the buck stops here.
If you were a victim I am sorry. If you victimize it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
I think all of them were victims. Even the ones who recruited other women. Somewhere along the line these recruiters were taught that it was the right thing to do for the MOG (gag me))! I'm sure they didn't think that up themselves - they were taught the "scriptures". And I'd bet any amount of money that they participated first before getting anyone else to do so.
So even though they may not have thought of themselves as victims at the time, I believe they were. I wonder how they feel about it now, so many years later? Do they still think they did the right thing?
If they really didn't think or feel like they were victims back then, I'm sure now, 27 or 28 years later, they know damn well they were.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now." - Stephen Stillssize>
I wonder if they ever think about how many women they victimized...
I know I shared some dumb a$$ bad scripture stuff to people because it was shared with me --and I feel terrible about the people I passed it along to -- I pray that God gets the REAL truth to them so they do not practice some of the stupid things I shared.
But if I hunted down young girls to turn them over to a molester... I would try to find those girls and beg forgiveness!
I saw it once on The Practice. A guy was molested by a priest he was about 11 years old. He had a best friend around the same age.
The first kid KNEW the priest was a molester and directed his friend to go hang out with the Priest. So, the innocent friend did hang out with the priest and was also molested.
Years later, the innocent kid (now a man) sued his friend because he knowingly and willingly directed him to a molester.
Very interesting.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 18, 2003 at 15:52.]
You know at the time, Vic had thousands and thousands of followers that believed that he played checkers with God personally.
VPW was not the postman, nor was he an insurance salesman. To the minds of the followers, he was the man of God for that generation. He was on par with Moses and Paul and they trusted that what he stood for was the same as what they were seeking. It was not.
Holding a duped follower for believing what they were taught, when everything they were exposed to and most everyone they talked to reinforced that premise, is wrong.
We all were duped. To what extent we were duped, plays heavily upon the circumstances of our involvement.
We were all victims, but if we let the women recruiters for VPW's victims off the hook of responsibility, then we need to let every guy out there off the hook for their sexual problems including Craig, IMHO.
There is a difference in being a victim and victimizing.
I can forgive a victim who victimizes if they ask for forgiveness. But if they think, oh well, I did what I was told to do, that isn't my fault! I beg to differ. I know cute little girls that were recruited by two of VPW's pimps. Oddly enough, both women recruiters ARE ordained by VPW!
Yet those cute little girls that fell prey did not go out and recruit.
Once a victim joins in being a sexual predator by their own involvement or recruitment, I see partial responsibility.
After all, LCM was once just a jock that wanted to take a class called PFAL. The MOG VPW personally groomed him into the predator he is today. So, if we let the recruiting Ordained off the hook of responsibility, then let's apply the same to Craig.
Just because we were influenced by what we believed was truth of Gods word taught by a good man.... doesnt mean we lose our ability to draw lines in our own personal life.
At one point everyone here has said enough is enough .....
U know I am proud I did what I did I had him arrested. but the cost was great.
It was not only about the Leaders giving orders it was about those willing to comply and how far they would go to please someone eles for what ever they got from it
They got something dont fool yourself.
Something that meant a great deal to them or they would not have done it.
I look at people who have the ability to see right from wrong from a human perspective a loving compassionate person would not lead others into torment and pain .
I took me 40 years of my life to realize some people are so selfish so selfimportant they can not have empathy or compassion for anyone eles .
How blind a person was is truly how used they were is the victims cry of relief yet I submit some dam well knew and didnt care at all it was about them and only them and what they thought would bring them honor, power and a name in the ministry.
We are used only as much as we allow others to use us.
If it was force and rape then the law could have and should have been involved.
Why someone would not meet justice with what is available with the laws today , has to do with the fact they also got something in return they felt was valuable at the time.
Rape is different than regret.
Maybe he did have sex with young girls but by the age of 18 girls know what sex is even if they had not participated in it personly.
Many girls are manipulated and it is wrong, but the blame game goes back to the parents not teaching the girl about sex or the girl thinking sex will bring her something it did not .
At any time they could have reached other sources outside of the way or I dare say even within by not complying and saying no.
If you continue to believe it was rape truly with no consent than press legal charges...
No the thing is they say they were coerced ok well that will not end for young pretty girls since the beginning of time... vpw victims are not alone in this fact of life.
Be angry you allowed it to happen but remember rape is not regret....
if it was rape than I suggest the reason you didnt press charges and take action to stop being abused has alot more to do with your own problems on a personal level than any man who took advantage of it.
I know this will not make me popular. with the gs crowd but if you were not grown up then grow up now and look to see why it happened TO you .
When you consent to sex whether you regret it later or not it is not rape. It is not child molesting when a person is 18 years old,because our society has legal laws that we can use to stop that behaviour, if your werent "strong enough" or manipulated to believing it was what you were suppose to do that would be your problem as well as the other party.
Unless we are talking about a retarded child unable to accept responsibilities for their choices it is clear to me it does indeed take two to tangle. No one was beat into submission no one had a gun to their head and infact many thought they would recieve great rewards for participating.
regret is not rape
sure it is wrong to take advantage of others, to use a title as a power play, it is also wrong to believe the victims didnt want an advantage of their own by complying with the wishes of who ever they thought they could use.
If you were to young to know all about how the world works then accept that as part of where you were at and be thankful you learned many in life never do.
I believe the reason many didnt complain and the arrest records never hint any illegal activity is because it did take two.
Remember the law suits were CIVIL not crimminal.
a big difference .
[This message was edited by mj412 on February 19, 2003 at 8:00.]
Those 18 year old girls were given alcohol when the drinking age was 21. So, now it is criminal.
Some of those 18 year olds were given drugs -- drug dealers are criminals.
So even if they were 18 and Ma and Pop did a great job, they went to hear about Jesus and were given DRUGS AND ALCOHOL by old men which included ministers of God. Besides the ethical issues... which can be argued at 18 they should have known better, they were GIVEN BOOZE and drugs. Read Marsha's story and about 4 occasional posters here know all about this stuff, via friends or personal invitations to the parties.
Just because we were influenced by what we believed was truth of Gods word taught by a good man.... doesnt mean we lose our ability to draw lines in our own personal life.
At one point everyone here has said enough is enough .....
U know I am proud I did what I did I had him arrested. but the cost was great.
It was not only about the Leaders giving orders it was about those willing to comply and how far they would go to please someone eles for what ever they got from it
They got something dont fool yourself.
Something that meant a great deal to them or they would not have done it.
I look at people who have the ability to see right from wrong from a human perspective a loving compassionate person would not lead others into torment and pain .
I took me 40 years of my life to realize some people are so selfish so selfimportant they can not have empathy or compassion for anyone eles .
How blind a person was is truly how used they were is the victims cry of relief yet I submit some dam well knew and didnt care at all it was about them and only them and what they thought would bring them honor, power and a name in the ministry.
We are used only as much as we allow others to use us.
If it was force and rape then the law could have and should have been involved.
Why someone would not meet justice with what is available with the laws today , has to do with the fact they also got something in return they felt was valuable at the time.
Rape is different than regret.
Maybe he did have sex with young girls but by the age of 18 girls know what sex is even if they had not participated in it personly.
Many girls are manipulated and it is wrong, but the blame game goes back to the parents not teaching the girl about sex or the girl thinking sex will bring her something it did not .
At any time they could have reached other sources outside of the way or I dare say even within by not complying and saying no.
If you continue to believe it was rape truly with no consent than press legal charges...
No the thing is they say they were coerced ok well that will not end for young pretty girls since the beginning of time... vpw victims are not alone in this fact of life.
Be angry you allowed it to happen but remember rape is not regret....
if it was rape than I suggest the reason you didnt press charges and take action to stop being abused has alot more to do with your own problems on a personal level than any man who took advantage of it.
I know this will not make me popular. with the gs crowd but if you were not grown up then grow up now and look to see why it happened TO you .
When you consent to sex whether you regret it later or not it is not rape. It is not child molesting when a person is 18 years old,because our society has legal laws that we can use to stop that behaviour, if your werent "strong enough" or manipulated to believing it was what you were suppose to do that would be your problem as well as the other party.
Unless we are talking about a retarded child unable to accept responsibilities for their choices it is clear to me it does indeed take two to tangle. No one was beat into submission no one had a gun to their head and infact many thought they would recieve great rewards for participating.
regret is not rape
sure it is wrong to take advantage of others, to use a title as a power play, it is also wrong to believe the victims didnt want an advantage of their own by complying with the wishes of who ever they thought they could use.
If you were to young to know all about how the world works then accept that as part of where you were at and be thankful you learned many in life never do.
I believe the reason many didnt complain and the arrest records never hint any illegal activity is because it did take two.
Remember the law suits were CIVIL not crimminal.
a big difference .
[This message was edited by mj412 on February 19, 2003 at 8:00.]
what a post mj! You are definitly THE MAN! Wish I could explain it as well as you. Everyone says I sound hardhearted when I try to explain it. You do an exellent job.
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mj412
I think 18 -19 is not old enough to make decision that are well rounded.
I think we all lived those years and many of us couldnt have been told any different being of "adult"
age so we thought.
What bothers me is the way really trashed a parents authority and made it more difficult for parents to parent the teens that were involved.
How does that bring harmony in the home as displayed on the green card?
The discounted "the home" the family totaly unless they were involved with twi, and these were young kids....
man it was so wrong.
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Dot Matrix
Depends. The person may have been a victim then became a participant.
Mind you, many people who MOLEST other people were molested themselves. So, if a child is molested by a person who was molested, do we go after the molester three generations back? Or is each molester responsible for their own actions?
If you go out and "round people up to present to a molester" then you are participating, IMO. Then, you are to blame even if you started out as a victim.
Example:
Picture your kids. They tell you they were molested who are you mad at? The person who molested your kid? Or the person in 1920 who molested a kid, who grew to molest a kid, who grew to molest your child?
Dot Matrix
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mj412
yes indeed dot
Yet it has to stop and years ago the laws didnt have a clue of the damage that was done.
Now we understand.
it has to stop.
make an example of my child no one wants to accept that on a personal level Yet it has to stop and this is the only way if you truly believe that is WHY they molest.
I do not think that is the reason in many cases.
and also if that theory is so true the victims or girls have to be accountable to being atracted to molesters as well .
I am not into these cut and dry this is because of that reasoning.
but if you are then admit it has to stop some where.
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Dot Matrix
That is the point! Good for you! The molesting has to stop somewhere. This abuse excuse lets it go on and on. Passing the buck to the molester that molested the boy who grew into the priest who molested "your son." (so we go back to 200 B.C. for the very first time it happened and let everyone else off the hook? I do not think so.)
I don't care if you were abused if you abuse my kid I hold you responsible. Now, once that person is in custody, we can get that person some help as well.
I have friends who had alcoholocs as parents and they SWORE it would not happen to them -- Now here they are either married to one or one themselves. Who is responsible? Who is driving to the store, buying it and drinking it? That person is held accountable for passing it on. They need to make a decision to stop it NOW and never drink. Because it is something that is a family weakness and the person has to rise up and say the buck stops here.
If you were a victim I am sorry. If you victimize it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
Dot Matrix
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excathedra
i was just trying to say that maybe the 21 year old might have been a victim
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excathedra
27 + 21 = 48
no excuse, not trying to make one there
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mj412
thanks man I thought it was going to go the way of yes we need conseling and understanding and family first ideals of the 80's.
Yes.
The problem is it forces you to remove yourself from "family". the only source of love you have ever known.
Tis a life long sentence tho....
denial, enabling and circular behaviours are rampant in disfunctional families.
To be alone in a world without a clue how to function without them is not easy either.
Leaves you wide open for cult influence you see one that talks of unconditional love ...etc.
I believe the way want these wounded souls in the ranks or in the least ended up with many many of them from the victims to those who victimized.
It was a haven for both for different reasons.
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Hope R.
Excath -
I think all of them were victims. Even the ones who recruited other women. Somewhere along the line these recruiters were taught that it was the right thing to do for the MOG (gag me))! I'm sure they didn't think that up themselves - they were taught the "scriptures". And I'd bet any amount of money that they participated first before getting anyone else to do so.
So even though they may not have thought of themselves as victims at the time, I believe they were. I wonder how they feel about it now, so many years later? Do they still think they did the right thing?
If they really didn't think or feel like they were victims back then, I'm sure now, 27 or 28 years later, they know damn well they were.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now." - Stephen Stillssize>
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Dot Matrix
I wonder if they ever think about how many women they victimized...
I know I shared some dumb a$$ bad scripture stuff to people because it was shared with me --and I feel terrible about the people I passed it along to -- I pray that God gets the REAL truth to them so they do not practice some of the stupid things I shared.
But if I hunted down young girls to turn them over to a molester... I would try to find those girls and beg forgiveness!
I saw it once on The Practice. A guy was molested by a priest he was about 11 years old. He had a best friend around the same age.
The first kid KNEW the priest was a molester and directed his friend to go hang out with the Priest. So, the innocent friend did hang out with the priest and was also molested.
Years later, the innocent kid (now a man) sued his friend because he knowingly and willingly directed him to a molester.
Very interesting.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 18, 2003 at 15:52.]
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fortunateone
27 year is only part way thru a lifetime of
"renewing" your mind to bad things we did do or did not do to prevent these victimizations of God's people.
Responsibility is a conscious feeling which some people have little of and others alot, which makes daily living a chore to say the least.
My heart goes out to all the victims.
May God comfort you and show you a new way of living free of the burden you bare.
FORTUNATEONE to be out of TWI
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jediknight777
You know at the time, Vic had thousands and thousands of followers that believed that he played checkers with God personally.
VPW was not the postman, nor was he an insurance salesman. To the minds of the followers, he was the man of God for that generation. He was on par with Moses and Paul and they trusted that what he stood for was the same as what they were seeking. It was not.
Holding a duped follower for believing what they were taught, when everything they were exposed to and most everyone they talked to reinforced that premise, is wrong.
We all were duped. To what extent we were duped, plays heavily upon the circumstances of our involvement.
JedI?
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Dot Matrix
We were all victims, but if we let the women recruiters for VPW's victims off the hook of responsibility, then we need to let every guy out there off the hook for their sexual problems including Craig, IMHO.
There is a difference in being a victim and victimizing.
I can forgive a victim who victimizes if they ask for forgiveness. But if they think, oh well, I did what I was told to do, that isn't my fault! I beg to differ. I know cute little girls that were recruited by two of VPW's pimps. Oddly enough, both women recruiters ARE ordained by VPW!
Yet those cute little girls that fell prey did not go out and recruit.
Once a victim joins in being a sexual predator by their own involvement or recruitment, I see partial responsibility.
After all, LCM was once just a jock that wanted to take a class called PFAL. The MOG VPW personally groomed him into the predator he is today. So, if we let the recruiting Ordained off the hook of responsibility, then let's apply the same to Craig.
Dot Matrix
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mj412
Just because we were influenced by what we believed was truth of Gods word taught by a good man.... doesnt mean we lose our ability to draw lines in our own personal life.
At one point everyone here has said enough is enough .....
U know I am proud I did what I did I had him arrested. but the cost was great.
It was not only about the Leaders giving orders it was about those willing to comply and how far they would go to please someone eles for what ever they got from it
They got something dont fool yourself.
Something that meant a great deal to them or they would not have done it.
I look at people who have the ability to see right from wrong from a human perspective a loving compassionate person would not lead others into torment and pain .
I took me 40 years of my life to realize some people are so selfish so selfimportant they can not have empathy or compassion for anyone eles .
How blind a person was is truly how used they were is the victims cry of relief yet I submit some dam well knew and didnt care at all it was about them and only them and what they thought would bring them honor, power and a name in the ministry.
We are used only as much as we allow others to use us.
If it was force and rape then the law could have and should have been involved.
Why someone would not meet justice with what is available with the laws today , has to do with the fact they also got something in return they felt was valuable at the time.
Rape is different than regret.
Maybe he did have sex with young girls but by the age of 18 girls know what sex is even if they had not participated in it personly.
Many girls are manipulated and it is wrong, but the blame game goes back to the parents not teaching the girl about sex or the girl thinking sex will bring her something it did not .
At any time they could have reached other sources outside of the way or I dare say even within by not complying and saying no.
If you continue to believe it was rape truly with no consent than press legal charges...
No the thing is they say they were coerced ok well that will not end for young pretty girls since the beginning of time... vpw victims are not alone in this fact of life.
Be angry you allowed it to happen but remember rape is not regret....
if it was rape than I suggest the reason you didnt press charges and take action to stop being abused has alot more to do with your own problems on a personal level than any man who took advantage of it.
I know this will not make me popular. with the gs crowd but if you were not grown up then grow up now and look to see why it happened TO you .
When you consent to sex whether you regret it later or not it is not rape. It is not child molesting when a person is 18 years old,because our society has legal laws that we can use to stop that behaviour, if your werent "strong enough" or manipulated to believing it was what you were suppose to do that would be your problem as well as the other party.
Unless we are talking about a retarded child unable to accept responsibilities for their choices it is clear to me it does indeed take two to tangle. No one was beat into submission no one had a gun to their head and infact many thought they would recieve great rewards for participating.
regret is not rape
sure it is wrong to take advantage of others, to use a title as a power play, it is also wrong to believe the victims didnt want an advantage of their own by complying with the wishes of who ever they thought they could use.
If you were to young to know all about how the world works then accept that as part of where you were at and be thankful you learned many in life never do.
I believe the reason many didnt complain and the arrest records never hint any illegal activity is because it did take two.
Remember the law suits were CIVIL not crimminal.
a big difference .
[This message was edited by mj412 on February 19, 2003 at 8:00.]
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Dot Matrix
Those 18 year old girls were given alcohol when the drinking age was 21. So, now it is criminal.
Some of those 18 year olds were given drugs -- drug dealers are criminals.
So even if they were 18 and Ma and Pop did a great job, they went to hear about Jesus and were given DRUGS AND ALCOHOL by old men which included ministers of God. Besides the ethical issues... which can be argued at 18 they should have known better, they were GIVEN BOOZE and drugs. Read Marsha's story and about 4 occasional posters here know all about this stuff, via friends or personal invitations to the parties.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
I hope when they revisit GS, in the upcoming weeks, they post to tell you what they saw.
Dot Matrix
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chwester
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