Unmarried women having children

[rhino]

Actually, studies show what I have been saying that loving, caring, nurturing parents are the gold standard. Mom and Pop won't help the health and well being of a child or a spouse when the other spouse is abusive, for example. Do we need to look at abuse rates?

Two parent families are strongest, from stats I saw. Sure, if you have stats that show there is usually abuse in two parent families, show that, instead of hinting at it.

Sudo's point is that there is no stigma to having kids single. I agree that a stigma is not the best probably, but education on more than just birth control would also help. I never said I was against sex ed that has reduced teen pregnancy ... yes I read the rest of my article.

It is not a problem if the kid(s) are getting the love and support they need. The real problem if we are talking about divorce is what led to the divorce be it abuse or getting into marriage for the wrong reasons etc.

Yes, marriages that stay together are probably the ones with fewer problems ... divorce is necessary at times ... but how many times is that, and is it enough to merit encouraging kids to have children out of wedlock, because dad will probably abuse their baby?

You said in another place that people get married to have kids or least with that assumption.

I never said that .. again you seem to argue against what you wrongly think my position is. I'll try to be clearer.

That was in this same context really, that a part of the concept of raising a child should include marriage. It doesn't have to condemn single parents, but it could clearly show "evidence" that the road will be much more difficult for the next 20 years if they decide to go it alone.

Of course sex ed should be part (if the village has to raise the child), because most teen pregnancies are unintentional. But why not teach the benefits of marriage on its own, and for the child?

It would be great to have two strong parents for every household, but that is not going to happen and that is not enforceable. You want a education on marriage for teens? How about education on parenting?

Sure, teach it all ... especially if they are already becoming parents ... I just think it would be wrong to glorify in any way, the idea of being a single teen Mom. The stark realities should be taught on that score.

Again, most educated Moms or couples are already teaching their kids I'd bet, the big area of concern seems with those living in or near poverty.

These are broad strokes you are making. .... Meanwhile, their kids are running amuck and and acting up, leaving me there to discipline their kids. Quite possibly discipline like they've never had it. I'm not saying that is the norm, but this happens with quite a few parents in numerous parts of the country that I have lived and visited. Just one small example.

You're the hands on expert, but even if the Dad tries a little and supports financially ... that helps. There is no guarentee that one imperfect parent is better than two, as you seem to suggest.

Again, are they going to talk about parenting if they are talking about marriage in light of kids? Relationship skills would be good. Situational coping skills would be better. Critical thinking skills would be great (something that was more left to college when I was in school).

Yes, teach all those ... that would be beneficial even for those higher up the food chain. I'm mostly saying those should be taught with marriage as the gold standard, while not condemning the single parent. Unless you can actually present evidence that single parenting is better ... which I don't think you can.

The more I read from those sites I gave, the more it seems marriage in general is positive for society, even without kids. If we are now raising the child, there could be some good instruction there. I wish I had those classes you suggest.

[Bramble]

I just don't see how stigma and disapproval will really help the single parent situation. While it might lower the single parent birth rate, I would expect it to make life much more difficult for those that are still born to single parents because it might encourage punative measures. I don't see the value of children growing up with poor nutrition, housing, child care medical and dental as being a good deterrent to single parenthood because it makes quality of life so much worse for both naprent and child. Povery hasn't been a good deterrant.

Education could help. Still, children raised in single parent families may not see a big reason to hop on the marriage train, especially if they've seen relationships of their parents not work.

I have seen some single moms band together in a non lesbian but 'family' type way, sharing housing and child care etc. Why they can't find that type of family with men is probably a long and complicated issue. Abandonment issues from their own childhood, maybe.

Recently there has been quite a bit of info on developement of critical thinking skills in older teens, how they have not yet reached adult maturity yet. Seems like many parents turn their teens loose once they can drive and have an after school job, which is too bad.

As far as young teens getting pg, I personally feel that involves child neglect on the parents part. Parents still need to see their young teens have supervision, accountability, appropriate activities etc. Just because they can legally be alone in the home after age 12 doesn't mena it's best.

[kimberly]

The phone number I posted earlier is on the keypad. Spell it out. Are you smarter than a fifth grader?

[lindyhopper]

I think this is it for me. I am tired of the things I say being misrepresented.

I have not stigmatized the "Mom and Pop" marriage.

I have not hinted at there usually being abuse in two parent homes.

I have not made a general statement that says one single parent is better than two.

To close out my posts on the other thread... I never said I thought all those that disagreed with me were homophobes and I am not a bigot because I refuse to accept bigoted ideas.

I think most people who have read my posts realize this.

What I have said on this thread and the gay marriage thread is that what it takes to raise good, healthy, well adjusted children is a nurturing environment with parent(s) that have the time to give the love, attention, support, and encouragement required. I have quoted an article from The American Association of Pediatrics that references studies that basically say that. I have said that a support network beyond the immediate family is very helpful. I have said teen pregnancy is not a good situation and that it is clear that effective sex education is the the way to reduce that likelihood.

Rhino, on this subject we probably agree on more than either of us would like to admit, but we definitely disagree on how to talk about it and some of the little details. We definitely disagree on the other thread and I will leave it at that.

[Bumpy]

I think this is it for me. I am tired of the things I say being misrepresented.

I have not stigmatized the "Mom and Pop" marriage.

I have not hinted at there usually being abuse in two parent homes.

I have not made a general statement that says one single parent is better than two.

To close out my posts on the other thread... I never said I thought all those that disagreed with me were homophobes and I am not a bigot because I refuse to accept bigoted ideas.

I think most people who have read my posts realize this.

Lindy! What time zone do you live in, and what's in that martini glass? Does it go well with oysters??

[Mister P-Mosh]

I don't want to get in the middle of all the nonsense, but I can confirm the Iceland thing to some degree. I have a friend that went to work there a few years, and not only are they a very promiscuous people, but they are sort of all a bunch of swingers. Even married couples openly sleep with other people in their houses. If a man invites you to eat dinner with his family, you might also be invited to sleep with his wife afterwards.

That lifestyle is very bizarre to us, and I know I'd be murderous if anyone tried to sleep with my wife, but I can understand their different values and I think if it works for them, then that's fine. I don't have to participate so it's ok.

Oh, and as far as all the talk about single people sleeping around being a new thing, I think that is highly delusional. Things like pre-marital sex have existed forever, as well as cheating, homosexuality, polyamory, or any other taboo stuff. The pill didn't do anything to cause people to have more sex, it just made it to where you don't see as many teenagers getting married because of pregnancies now.

However, there are quite a few teenage girls that want to have babies. Some of the reasons include wanting to be an adult and stop being treated as a child, not feeling enough love from others so they need to get the attention from a baby, and the delusion that a baby would get their boyfriend to become more committed to them like in the past. Throw in the fact that all this abstinence-only education and public shame around sexuality makes girls ignorant about sex and too embarrassed to get the pill because they don't want their parents to find out. Like always, boys and men have no responsibilities sexually, so all of the pressure is on the women and girls to take care.

[kimberly]

Ain't nobody disrespecting the single mother due to divorce. Been there, lived that.

But you want to have a baby and not be married? Sorry, that is not an option in my family with my children. And they know that. My children even know that living together before marriage is not an acceptable life style. And yes, we are a biblical family. We don't care about statistics, or being "progressive" (we have that insurance company).

My first born was married just this year at the age of 27. He had his own apartment and his fiance lived with her mother. Does that mean we condemn anyone who is not married and live together and/or has a baby out of wedlock? You bet your sweet bippy we do. Ha! Ha! Just kidding. Heckaroonie no!! Just because we don't live someone else's life style doesn't give us the right or privilege to condemn them. I may not live that or believe that but I won't hurt you because of it. It is called love, sister honey girlfriend.

[Sudo]

Kimberly,

Re:"Ain't nobody disrespecting the single mother due to divorce. Been there, lived that....But you want to have a baby and not be married?"

Your gut response is what I've been trying to get folks here to address. You recognize out-of-wedlock children as a problem... if not to the children or mothers themselves necessarily then perhaps to our society and culture. And if not an immediate danger then one that is more insidious.

I'm racking my brain trying to think of a society that not only survived but prospered when a man wasn't at least the nominal head of household. Seems there was a Polynesian culture where the women ran things out in the open (as opposed to today where women often really run things but in the background) and the way of life seemed fine. But other than that.. history doesn't seem to have happy endings for cultures where the women feel free to get pregnant by whatever man happens along at the time. Yet.. no one wants to make a big deal about it in our country now, huh?

sudo

[Bramble]

Navaho are matriarchal, though I'm not sure what that all means in this discussion.

I fail to see how this is all a woman's problem.

All those babies have fathers, somewhere. What if those dad's stepped up to help parent and provided financial support without their checks being garnished? What if they didn't skip the state and move around to avoid getting caught for back child support? What if getting a woman pregnant was unacceptable and a man was expected to take some real responsibility?

How many fathers of these unwed mother's children barely know their kids? How many have fathered children by more than one woman--and are behind on child support for all of them? How many view their own children as nothing but a financial burden and have no real concern about the child's actual well being, leaving it all up to the mother, who they blame for getting pg and causing them so much trouble?

[Mister P-Mosh]

I'm racking my brain trying to think of a society that not only survived but prospered when a man wasn't at least the nominal head of household. Seems there was a Polynesian culture where the women ran things out in the open (as opposed to today where women often really run things but in the background) and the way of life seemed fine. But other than that.. history doesn't seem to have happy endings for cultures where the women feel free to get pregnant by whatever man happens along at the time. Yet.. no one wants to make a big deal about it in our country now, huh?

The thing is, all cultures end or are swallowed up by others. While it's true that most have been ruled by men, there have been and still are a few cultures where women are openly considered to be dominant. However, even in older times, women were really equal or more powerful than men in the family. Look at it this way, do you really think your dad could do whatever he wanted and not have consequences from your mother? Probably not. Only abused women put up with everything a man does, and even in the past when divorce was stigmatized, sometimes the women made their husbands' lives a living hell. You know how they say that there are things worse than death? I think ....ing off a woman too badly is one of those things.

[simonzelotes]

The thing is, all cultures end or are swallowed up by others. While it's true that most have been ruled by men, there have been and still are a few cultures where women are openly considered to be dominant. However, even in older times, women were really equal or more powerful than men in the family. Look at it this way, do you really think your dad could do whatever he wanted and not have consequences from your mother? Probably not. Only abused women put up with everything a man does, and even in the past when divorce was stigmatized, sometimes the women made their husbands' lives a living hell. You know how they say that there are things worse than death? I think ....ing off a woman too badly is one of those things.

I think there's a Bible verse somewhere that goes something like " ...it is better to dwell on the corner of a rooftop than with a brawling woman in a wide house..."

[Mister P-Mosh]

I think there's a Bible verse somewhere that goes something like " ...it is better to dwell on the corner of a rooftop than with a brawling woman in a wide house..."

Proverbs 25:24, a classic.

[Bramble]

I don't see a huge parenting or moral difference between the divorced single parent or the never married single parent. Neither are in an 'ideal' marriage relationship with the other parent. Both are the 'heads' of their own households, and they share many of the same problems with child care, finances etc. It may make a difference in respect to some religious values, but I fail to see a huge difference between the two types of parents.

Can marriage be taught in a highschool class? Sure, but will it make teens more successful at finding and keeping a marriage together? Not sure about that. Even people who very much believe in marriage get divorced.

[cheranne]

unmarried men are having the children too! It takes two to tango unless your a frozen embro and still that is two.