I have only met the man a few times. I have heard quite a few of his teachings from CES. I feel that I have learned quite a bit from him. It would be difficult for me to believe he is a man who doesn't care about God. And from those I have spoken to who know/knew him never have really anything bad they can say about him. What about anybody else here? Has anybody met him and to what of his character?
I've never met this John Lynn. But it seems from personal testimonies that he is not a very well-liked man.
I have thought about supporting CES at times because of what I have heard John Schoenheit share and express. But I also know that you can stand on stage and sound real holy and yet be a real jerk "off camera". I just don't know him well enough. Can anybody shed some light on this?
Thanks,
OneWhoIsFree
All of them are very sincere. John S is a good person. He's not evil. I do think he's misdirected.
I have only met the man a few times. I have heard quite a few of his teachings from CES. I feel that I have learned quite a bit from him. It would be difficult for me to believe he is a man who doesn't care about God. And from those I have spoken to who know/knew him never have really anything bad they can say about him. What about anybody else here? Has anybody met him and to what of his character?
I've never met this John Lynn. But it seems from personal testimonies that he is not a very well-liked man.
I have thought about supporting CES at times because of what I have heard John Schoenheit share and express. But I also know that you can stand on stage and sound real holy and yet be a real jerk "off camera". I just don't know him well enough. Can anybody shed some light on this?
Thanks,
OneWhoIsFree
Dear One,
I can't speak about where John Schoenheit is at currently because I haven't had any contact with him in many years. But when I did know him years ago he was a very fine upstanding Christian man with a great gift for teaching God's Word. We should all be grateful to him for taking a stand at a very critical time after VPW's death and being man enough and holy enough to confront the sin of adultery in TWI. He paid a high price for this in losing his job and being ostracized and branded as a "persona non grata" for his stand against evil.
John Schoenheit is ok in my book. And I want to publicly give him honor and credit for being instrumental in freeing me and many others at that critical time.
John Schoenheit was a very good friend of ours when he was in TWI. A good-hearted man, very knowledgeable of the Old Testament and history. I never knew him to be one of the huge "egoes" of the research team. A humble man, but up front about what he believes. Was the first person to really lift the lid off of what VPW was doing. Told me after he left, way back when. I wish I had believed him then. What he told me proved to be correct. Ignoring him cost me another decade in the belly of the beast at least.
Hey y'all. It's been a while but I stopped by and saw this thread, so I couldn't help but to chime in....
John Schoenheit performed our wedding ceremony about a year and a half ago. My wife and I chose him because his deep felt, earnest love for God and his committment to live a godly lifestyle. He really does try, on a day to day basis, to live a life that pleases God. He doesn't always hit the mark, but he genuinely does his best.
Here's an example. A few years back a misunderstanding occurred between some of the youth staff and some of the adult staff at CES/STF's annual Teens & Twenties Camp (looong story, I won't get into it here). Basically, some of the youth staff were insulted because they felt that they were treated like children by a few adult staff members during a morning staff meeting. Both "sides" quickly polarized and a few of the adult leaders assumed a "we need to teach these kids a spiritual lesson" posture. But not Schoenheit. He heard that some of the youth staff members were hurt and were too intimidated to approach the main adult leaders, so he gently asked to address a group of the youth staff. John accounted to them and told them that if he had said something that offended them, it wasn't his intention. He was broken up that an offense had occurred, and at one point in his address he actually came to tears. What struck me in John's behavior is that while the majority of the "spiritually mature" adults were focused on pointing out the "spiritual immaturity" of the youths and scolding them like bad children, John approached them as equals with a heart to RECONCILE the relationship and come to a resolution.
To be fair, a majority of the adult staff members weren't involved, and only two or three in particular were really spearheading the polarization. And out of those who were involved I really only saw that behavior consisently in two of them. One I genuinely beleive was just trying to keep some semblance of order and "law" - which is an ABSOLUTE necessity in a camp packed with 150+ teenagers and 20-somethings!!
My point is that the "big Board Member, Bible Scholar, and Leader" John Schoenheit really modeled Christ's love and compassion that day, and I've seen him do it many more times. Yes, he is definitely more of a scholar than a natural, intuitive people person, but I genuinely believe that his heart is in the right place. I would not have let him preside over the greatest, most beautiful day in my life if that were not the case.
Thanks to those who will read this with an open heart and an open mind. Then again, I could just a brainwashed cult member with no sense of judgement.... ;)
Excellent post, Billy, and something that sounds totally in character with John. I worked with him for a couple of years in Charlotte and he is a man who is absolutely passionate about studying the Bible. It truly is his heart's desire.
Although not primarily known as a "pastoral" figure, he enjoys hanging out and fellowshipping with people. He has an almost childlike trust and belief in people, which I believe serves him well in some situations and not so well in others. He has given his word and loyalty to the other board members of CES/STFI and I believe that has hindered him from being able to more fully explore his scholarly pursuits.
I agree with David, if he can cut loose from CES, he could certainly impact more people with his teaching. Apart from that, I believe he is a very trustworthy guy. I hope his current post will not drag him down with politics and backstabbing.
These guys live (what I believe to be) a pretty secluded life. This does not allow for exposure to different ideas. JS used to have exposure to different people, but since moving to Bloomington, he and the whole bunch simply don't have exposure to different people except peripherally. You remember the "like minded" thing, well I think it's the guiding force in his life, as with the rest of them.
hi all you fellow greasespotters!.............it's been awhile since i've posted here in the ces forum..............but, this topic caught my attention, since i spent a good deal of time trying to get answers from john s. john l, the greaser's, jeff blackburn, and anyone else in the ces/stfi "leadership" group, several of whom have posted here at the spot...........as part of my efforts, i spoke with john schoenheit on the phone a couple of times in late november and december of 2007, and reported back here some of the responses i got from my personal conversations with some of the ces/stfi bod members, because none of them chose to post for themselves here in the forum set up just for them, since they had long ago shut down a similar discussion forum at their own websites...........i feel that some further info i received from my phone conversations with john s. last fall is appropriate for this thread...........
first of all, let me state that i have known john s. since 1974, when we were both with twi in north carolina..........i was on my interim year of the corps "training", and john was a college student at nc state, raleigh, where he ran a college wow way home, IIRC.......our interpersonal contact was not frequent during the years 1974 through 1986, but there were many occasions when we "ran into each other" as faculty members at various "root locales", and several times during research team meetings during the writing of jcop, jcops, and other reaearch dept. activities at which we were both present............in the fall of 1986, we were both at hq, and i may have inadvertently contributed to john's ignominious "firing" from twi research staff, because i circulated his adultery paper among those who, it turned out, had a viciously tenacious agenda of totally silencing discussion of the "material" contained in that simple little paper for reasons now, hopefully, well-known to those of us who have frequented the greasespot during the last 8 years.......
i concur with those who have posted on this thread concerning john's genuine christian character, and his personal, "moral compass".........i have never known john to be other than described above by tzaia, wrdsandwrks, dmiller, catcup, billy d., and batcave...............and, when he was unjustly and cruelly fired on the grounds of the adultery paper in 1986, i fought hard on his behalf to have that decision overturned and to have not only john, but anyone else who was "punished" for "promoting" the adultery paper, promptly and unconditionally re-instated to their previous twi "positions"...........to no avail.............culminating in my own resignation from twi staff in december, 1986, for reasons which included the brutal mishandling of all those who were attacked and punished due to their "involvement" with that paper...........i ran into john at mark car**li's "fellowship" in troy, oh, in the winter of 1987, where i had been invited to sp[eak, and we spent a few hours discussing all that had transpired earlier that previous fall..........and, again in charlotte, nc, where i had also been invited to speak several times during 1987 and '88.........it is interesting to me, that john is among the very few "leaders" of any post-twi "ministry", whose personal character, and morality cannot be honestly impugned because of behavior or actions on his part...........a sad testament to the fact that so many others in similar positions of "leadership" in twi and/or its various offshoots, cannot stand up to the same kind of scrutiny when it comes to their own personal "walk of faith"!
my questions about john do not concern his character, nor his personal and interpersonal morality............rather, i find myself "forced" to question his "spiritual" and intellectual judgement through these past 22 years of his post-twi history............why?...........because, as a ces/stfi bod member since 1988, and its current president, john has been prominently involved in the development of ces doctrine and practice from its infancy to its current status as one of the larger twi offshoots still "moving the word" among a church still comprised mostly of twi refugees..........a ministry which, imho, continues to promote a large percentage of the same spurious, pseudo-christian doctrines/practices which vic inveigled deeply into the "god consciousness" of all those who attempt to present it in their own "kinder, gentler, ministries"...........having started out by proclaiming vic was "wrong" about adultery, as well as a list of 26 other "differences" ces claims for itself, from pfal and other twi "standards", john has overseen the evolution of his "ministry" to the point where, today, he agrees wholeheartedly with his fellow ces former prez, john lynn, that, indeed, vic himself would be "very proud" of what they're doing!!.............viva la revolucion!!!
among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!!
having been a member of the founding bod of ces, i remember quite distinctly how much jalvis insisted upon bringing john s., and the graeser's onto the ces bod in 1988.........it was a hotly debated issue back then, and, when jalvis finally got his way, several founding bod members promptly resigned............at that time, there was major disagreement about the promotion of and participation in the momentus "training" by ces "members"...........sue pie**rce, robert be**lt, tom rea**hard, and ralph dubof**sky, all founding bod members refused to participate in momentus and its promotion, and none of them ever did........but, john s. and the graeser's did, and still proclaim its "benefits" to this day, despite a less-than-gleaming track record of ces involvement with that "christianized" EST type scam!......john s.'s doctrinal "vetting" of momentus helped its promotion and validated the inculcation of momentus terminolgy and practices into the daily activities and speech of ces/stfi itself, where they remain to this day!.......i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind these facts, then and now........
then there's the entire "personal prophecy" fiasco!..............the insanity of this spurious malpractice of "christanity", along with its concommitant spiritual abuse, was once again vetted for ces by john s. repeatedly, eventually becoming "institutionalized" into ces/stfi with the publication and sale of their "research" manifesto on the topic.............a publication which ces/stfi and its current president still proudly stand by and promote as "truth"!..........there are literally hundreds of posts, scattered throughout this ces forum, which document the insane progression of this "truth" from its genesis with ces involvement with florida church international (?), and greg pharis(sp?) all the way through the departure from ces of its second prez and his wife along with the resner's...........the sordid "secret" details of this aberrant practice, and it's viciously destructive impact on ces bod members themselves, and their families, are also posted all over this ces forum!.........i absolutely question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who stubbornly adhere to and promote this foolish doctrine and practice as somehow being "biblically accurate"!!............
i also must question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of any person who,,,,,,,,, despite numerous "moral failures" on the part of the two previous ces/stfi presidents, despite numerous accounts from former followers of various "hurts and abuses" suffered by them at the hands of ces "leadership", doctrines and practices, even after many dollars and hours spent by those same followers in the "pursuit of godliness" as defined by ces/stfi........still determines that, continued loyalty to the teachings and practices which comprise the total ces/stfi "package" is somehow "right with god, the father of jesus christ"!!...........not only that, but such loyalty is supposedly based on "the rightly divided accuracy of god's word"??..............according to whom???
john schoenheit is, by all accounts, "a really good guy", and, he is a really good "bible teacher"............he's honest and forthright about what he believes and why he believes it.............he does'nt "come accross" as some ego-tripping ex-twi "leader"..........he seems "down-to-earth", and approachable.............he does nice weddings for folks...........and he enjoys the "seclusion" of camp vision, and hunting and fishing.............he loves "working the word", and he believes he is carrying on in vic's stead to research and teach the word, "as it has'nt been known since the first century".........and, he believes vic himself would be "very proud" of what he's done and continues to do...........and, he believes it's "god's will" for him to be financially and materially supported by "god's people" in the body of christ who choose to do so............and, he's a citizen and resident of the USA, which allows him the freedom to believe and teach whatever he wants, and to earn his living by doing so.......and, it gives him the right to do all these things in a free and open society, with freedom of religion and expression................thank god!.................it also allows me the freedom to express my questions regarding the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind his choices, and to make my own choices as to what i believe about his "ministry" and its teachings and practices.................to each his own........................peace.
.............he loves "working the word", and he believes he is carrying on in vic's stead to research and teach the word, "as it has'nt been known since the first century".........and, he believes vic himself would be "very proud" of what he's done and continues to do...........
Yeah...that's the part that sticks in my throat.
Knowing that Vic was a plagiarizing, drunken, sexual predator...who made a lifestyle out of abusing people and took narcism to a new level...WHY would they WANT this guy to be proud of them???...and if he would have been proud of them, what does that say about them?
Although they seem to be sympathetic towards twi refugees, and they seem to be extending themselves to help these people...what are they REALLY doing? The bottom line is that Vic's "concept" of "knowing the "word" like it hasn't been known since the first century"...is still front and center in their "spiritual perspective". They don't see themselves as simple Christian folks who are seeking to worship God and fellowship with other Christians...They see themselves as "the special ones" whose job it is to teach us all the REAL truth that mainstram Christianity has been missing all these years...
Like twi, they focus on Christianity as an intellectual excercise...and like Indiana Jones, they will fit the puzzle pieces together properly and find the lost ark...
I don't know how someone can be aware of Wierwille's lifestyle and still embrace his "concepts of truth"...and pay tribute to him by announcing that he would "be proud of them"...the contradiction is glaring and adds nothing to their credibility.
Thanks DWBH ... interesting analysis ... I lived with the Carl.is one year ... I'm hopin they moved on, though they were still doing a fellowship in '87 you say ... or Mark was anyway .... they were at that historical center home I think ... I guess GSC could offer some extra items of historical note on vic's history ... but they probably sold the place.
They see themselves as "the special ones" whose job it is to teach us all the REAL truth that mainstram Christianity has been missing all these years...
Like twi, they focus on Christianity as an intellectual excercise...and like Indiana Jones, they will fit the puzzle pieces together properly and find the lost ark...
That makes the most sense to me, as far as why seemingly sane people still revere the vicster. It is hard to let go of that "God's chosen few" notion. Some hard core Baptists have it ... there are the 144,000 special ones, Jim Jones.. then those guys that were going to meet the aliens ... all kinds of groups living in some sci-fi land with their Captain Kirk leaders.
But yeah, JohnS had that special rev ... he could follow in VP's steps and carry out the pursuit of doctrinal perfection ... but then the spiders starting crawling around ... maybe he needs to hang out here, get some more open peer review ... or maybe in more scholastic venues ... but as long as there are a few drooling over their every word, it might be hard for the anointed ones to take off the holy mantle.
Although I do not post that often, when I saw the title of this thread I had to make a few comments. I have known John for many years and served on staff at several events that he has been involved in. He is a Christian of immense talent and has a genuine love for people. In addition, he is extremely knowledgeable about the Bible and can teach. As for working at several events, I never thought that he had some other agenda besides doing his best to communicate God's love to others and teach the Bible. I certainly CANNOT say that about some other ministers, especially a few that were in the Way.
As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).
John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization.
paradiseden,
with all due respect, i absolutely would not seek guidance from a christian minister who is spiritually blind to the unbiblical nature of "momentus" and "personal prophecy"...
(major red flag!)
this does not show spiritual insight!
nor would i seek guidance from a christian minister who believed that he would make a self-centered, money-hungry, power-seeking, lust-serving, lying and abusive alcoholic proud...
not exactly the stamp of approval that most christian ministers would seek...
he might be a nice guy, but he sounds spiritually blind...
and i personally would not want this kind of minister as the leader of any christian organization i was involved with...
And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).
Paradiseden...a few of the reasons?...perhaps some of the other reasons he is prsident is because the former presidents all left/were fired..because of scandal. What does that say about this organizaion?
I agree that John S seems like a swell guy with good intentions...and he probably is..BUT...I refer you to my above post (#11)...why would he invoke the name of VP Wierwille as somene who would be proud of him? Is this an indication of his "spiritual perception"?...Honest question.
hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that?
as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?...........ces/stfi spends their followers financial support on three websites they run and own themselves..........and yet, none of them provide a discussion forum like this for their own followers!...........those sites are loaded with all sorts of writings, "teachings", tapes, cd's, podcasts, "events", etc., which promote ces/stfi and their "leaders"..........but nowhere do they provide any place for their followers to engage their own critical thinking skills, or encourage objective, analytical discussions regarding the doctrines and practices they proclaim as "biblically accurate truth"!..........they used to.........but that was abruptly discontinued when their "personal prophecy" doctrine and practices were being questioned by some of the more "vocal" followers who raised important and critical questions concerning the veracity of what their "leadership" was declaring as "truth"!...........evidently, such free-wheeling, open discussions do not effectively enhance the "group think" twi offshoots require in order to accomplish "god's will"!
personally, i'm tired of the excuses they make for not posting here themselves.............and just as tired of the "fly-by" posts their surrogates come up with in their desperate attempts to validate, expiate, rationalize, and justify some of the UTTER NONSENSE they foist upon us here at the spot, and the rest of the known universe!.......apparently it is beneath their "dignity", or their "godly calling" to discuss any thing with any "community" which does not wholeheartedly agree with what they preach and teach!..........or with any "community" which is not as "proud" of what they're doing and teaching as the founding president of twi would be!.........this thread provides several good examples of what i'm typing about.........
paradiseden posted, "As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).".........what is so unique or special about these "qualities"??..........they describe a large number of "christian ministers" who conduct themselves in the same manner as john s. all around the globe, without ever giving such conduct a second thought.......that's pretty much the way "christian ministering" is done in most christian churches!.......it's fairly obvious, that paradiseden must have had some experiences in twi, with "christian ministers" whose conduct was quite different, eh?......probaby some of the same ex-twi "christian ministers" who ran ces/stfi at one time!!......there have been a couple..........
so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace.
Ok, I'll bite. I was very involved with CES for a few years (late 90's - early 2000's) until I realized most of the leadership wanted to make a new, improved version of TWI without the sexual abuse issues. Unfortunately, the separatist attitude of most of the leadership (Schoenheit included) still pervaded and they were undone by greed and pride. I couldn't stay on with those attitudes. Got one t-shirt, don't need another.
As I person, I respect JS very much. However, he has cast his loyalty with people who do not deserve it and he won't leave the mental comfort of the old TWI "research" thinking to srike out on his own. He is in my prayers, though.
hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that?
as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?
Maybe they just don't want to get into endless verbal arguments mean harassments and harangues by former friends who once loved them but now are corrupted with hate and venom against them?
Maybe they just don't want to get into endless verbal arguments mean harassments and harangues by former friends who once loved them but now are corrupted with hate and venom against them?
...or maybe they are not comfortable in an environment where dissenting opinions are allowed to be presented and debated...or maybe it is not conducive to their marketing strategies to leave the bubble of "group think" followers where they successfully promote their tapes and books to a captive audience...
However, he has cast his loyalty with people who do not deserve it and he won't leave the mental comfort of the old TWI "research" thinking to srike out on his own. He is in my prayers, though.
This describes many people I know who hang their hat with Geer too.
However, he has cast his loyalty with people who do not deserve it and he won't leave the mental comfort of the old TWI "research" thinking to srike out on his own. He is in my prayers, though.
This describes many people I know who hang their hat with Geer too.
Maybe they just don't want to get into endless verbal arguments mean harassments and harangues by former friends who once loved them but now are corrupted with hate and venom against them?
Maybe they were on the way to their keyboard and tripped and fell, injuring their wrist. Maybe they decided to take up knitting. Maybe they found a heathen website to post on saving souls.
among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!!
EXCELLENT. you made my night, don39. my respect for you has risen bigtime !!!!!
now up above i saw "i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor (barf), when he said to me, that if i remained faithful......
looks like i wasn't the only one getting ******'d on the motorcoach
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha only i'm smart enough to know it now !!!!! lol
Jen - o, yes it applies to all whove been tainted by vpw....it's just that I personally have dear friends whom I love who either still attend the Geer fellowship and who run an area under Geer.  My heart breaks that there are none so blind as those who will not see.....seeing they see not.....
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Tzaia
All of them are very sincere. John S is a good person. He's not evil. I do think he's misdirected.
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OneWhoIsFree
Misdirected in what way?
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wrdsandwrks
Dear One,
I can't speak about where John Schoenheit is at currently because I haven't had any contact with him in many years. But when I did know him years ago he was a very fine upstanding Christian man with a great gift for teaching God's Word. We should all be grateful to him for taking a stand at a very critical time after VPW's death and being man enough and holy enough to confront the sin of adultery in TWI. He paid a high price for this in losing his job and being ostracized and branded as a "persona non grata" for his stand against evil.
John Schoenheit is ok in my book. And I want to publicly give him honor and credit for being instrumental in freeing me and many others at that critical time.
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dmiller
My Humble Opinion????
John Shoenheit is probably one of the best when it comes to teaching the Old Testament.
His heart is (imo) right on, and he loves God, trying to do what he thinks is best.
His teachings ---- on pretty much any much OT history topics can't be be beat.
Regardless of that (These days) he's locked into the CES mentality.
The wonderful things he knows, and could share, are shrouded by CES.
Ya know --- I could be wrong, and I hope I am. But I don't think so.
For what it's worth ---- I supported CES in their infancy to just a few months ago.
CES is twi all over again. Took me a while to realize that, but I finally did.
If John S. gets out of it --- He might offer a REAL contribution to the rest of us.
The knowledge that he has is worth tapping into.
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Catcup
John Schoenheit was a very good friend of ours when he was in TWI. A good-hearted man, very knowledgeable of the Old Testament and history. I never knew him to be one of the huge "egoes" of the research team. A humble man, but up front about what he believes. Was the first person to really lift the lid off of what VPW was doing. Told me after he left, way back when. I wish I had believed him then. What he told me proved to be correct. Ignoring him cost me another decade in the belly of the beast at least.
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Billy D
Hey y'all. It's been a while but I stopped by and saw this thread, so I couldn't help but to chime in....
John Schoenheit performed our wedding ceremony about a year and a half ago. My wife and I chose him because his deep felt, earnest love for God and his committment to live a godly lifestyle. He really does try, on a day to day basis, to live a life that pleases God. He doesn't always hit the mark, but he genuinely does his best.
Here's an example. A few years back a misunderstanding occurred between some of the youth staff and some of the adult staff at CES/STF's annual Teens & Twenties Camp (looong story, I won't get into it here). Basically, some of the youth staff were insulted because they felt that they were treated like children by a few adult staff members during a morning staff meeting. Both "sides" quickly polarized and a few of the adult leaders assumed a "we need to teach these kids a spiritual lesson" posture. But not Schoenheit. He heard that some of the youth staff members were hurt and were too intimidated to approach the main adult leaders, so he gently asked to address a group of the youth staff. John accounted to them and told them that if he had said something that offended them, it wasn't his intention. He was broken up that an offense had occurred, and at one point in his address he actually came to tears. What struck me in John's behavior is that while the majority of the "spiritually mature" adults were focused on pointing out the "spiritual immaturity" of the youths and scolding them like bad children, John approached them as equals with a heart to RECONCILE the relationship and come to a resolution.
To be fair, a majority of the adult staff members weren't involved, and only two or three in particular were really spearheading the polarization. And out of those who were involved I really only saw that behavior consisently in two of them. One I genuinely beleive was just trying to keep some semblance of order and "law" - which is an ABSOLUTE necessity in a camp packed with 150+ teenagers and 20-somethings!!
My point is that the "big Board Member, Bible Scholar, and Leader" John Schoenheit really modeled Christ's love and compassion that day, and I've seen him do it many more times. Yes, he is definitely more of a scholar than a natural, intuitive people person, but I genuinely believe that his heart is in the right place. I would not have let him preside over the greatest, most beautiful day in my life if that were not the case.
Thanks to those who will read this with an open heart and an open mind. Then again, I could just a brainwashed cult member with no sense of judgement.... ;)
Blessings,
~B
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batcave
Excellent post, Billy, and something that sounds totally in character with John. I worked with him for a couple of years in Charlotte and he is a man who is absolutely passionate about studying the Bible. It truly is his heart's desire.
Although not primarily known as a "pastoral" figure, he enjoys hanging out and fellowshipping with people. He has an almost childlike trust and belief in people, which I believe serves him well in some situations and not so well in others. He has given his word and loyalty to the other board members of CES/STFI and I believe that has hindered him from being able to more fully explore his scholarly pursuits.
I agree with David, if he can cut loose from CES, he could certainly impact more people with his teaching. Apart from that, I believe he is a very trustworthy guy. I hope his current post will not drag him down with politics and backstabbing.
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Tzaia
These guys live (what I believe to be) a pretty secluded life. This does not allow for exposure to different ideas. JS used to have exposure to different people, but since moving to Bloomington, he and the whole bunch simply don't have exposure to different people except peripherally. You remember the "like minded" thing, well I think it's the guiding force in his life, as with the rest of them.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi all you fellow greasespotters!.............it's been awhile since i've posted here in the ces forum..............but, this topic caught my attention, since i spent a good deal of time trying to get answers from john s. john l, the greaser's, jeff blackburn, and anyone else in the ces/stfi "leadership" group, several of whom have posted here at the spot...........as part of my efforts, i spoke with john schoenheit on the phone a couple of times in late november and december of 2007, and reported back here some of the responses i got from my personal conversations with some of the ces/stfi bod members, because none of them chose to post for themselves here in the forum set up just for them, since they had long ago shut down a similar discussion forum at their own websites...........i feel that some further info i received from my phone conversations with john s. last fall is appropriate for this thread...........
first of all, let me state that i have known john s. since 1974, when we were both with twi in north carolina..........i was on my interim year of the corps "training", and john was a college student at nc state, raleigh, where he ran a college wow way home, IIRC.......our interpersonal contact was not frequent during the years 1974 through 1986, but there were many occasions when we "ran into each other" as faculty members at various "root locales", and several times during research team meetings during the writing of jcop, jcops, and other reaearch dept. activities at which we were both present............in the fall of 1986, we were both at hq, and i may have inadvertently contributed to john's ignominious "firing" from twi research staff, because i circulated his adultery paper among those who, it turned out, had a viciously tenacious agenda of totally silencing discussion of the "material" contained in that simple little paper for reasons now, hopefully, well-known to those of us who have frequented the greasespot during the last 8 years.......
i concur with those who have posted on this thread concerning john's genuine christian character, and his personal, "moral compass".........i have never known john to be other than described above by tzaia, wrdsandwrks, dmiller, catcup, billy d., and batcave...............and, when he was unjustly and cruelly fired on the grounds of the adultery paper in 1986, i fought hard on his behalf to have that decision overturned and to have not only john, but anyone else who was "punished" for "promoting" the adultery paper, promptly and unconditionally re-instated to their previous twi "positions"...........to no avail.............culminating in my own resignation from twi staff in december, 1986, for reasons which included the brutal mishandling of all those who were attacked and punished due to their "involvement" with that paper...........i ran into john at mark car**li's "fellowship" in troy, oh, in the winter of 1987, where i had been invited to sp[eak, and we spent a few hours discussing all that had transpired earlier that previous fall..........and, again in charlotte, nc, where i had also been invited to speak several times during 1987 and '88.........it is interesting to me, that john is among the very few "leaders" of any post-twi "ministry", whose personal character, and morality cannot be honestly impugned because of behavior or actions on his part...........a sad testament to the fact that so many others in similar positions of "leadership" in twi and/or its various offshoots, cannot stand up to the same kind of scrutiny when it comes to their own personal "walk of faith"!
my questions about john do not concern his character, nor his personal and interpersonal morality............rather, i find myself "forced" to question his "spiritual" and intellectual judgement through these past 22 years of his post-twi history............why?...........because, as a ces/stfi bod member since 1988, and its current president, john has been prominently involved in the development of ces doctrine and practice from its infancy to its current status as one of the larger twi offshoots still "moving the word" among a church still comprised mostly of twi refugees..........a ministry which, imho, continues to promote a large percentage of the same spurious, pseudo-christian doctrines/practices which vic inveigled deeply into the "god consciousness" of all those who attempt to present it in their own "kinder, gentler, ministries"...........having started out by proclaiming vic was "wrong" about adultery, as well as a list of 26 other "differences" ces claims for itself, from pfal and other twi "standards", john has overseen the evolution of his "ministry" to the point where, today, he agrees wholeheartedly with his fellow ces former prez, john lynn, that, indeed, vic himself would be "very proud" of what they're doing!!.............viva la revolucion!!!
among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!!
having been a member of the founding bod of ces, i remember quite distinctly how much jalvis insisted upon bringing john s., and the graeser's onto the ces bod in 1988.........it was a hotly debated issue back then, and, when jalvis finally got his way, several founding bod members promptly resigned............at that time, there was major disagreement about the promotion of and participation in the momentus "training" by ces "members"...........sue pie**rce, robert be**lt, tom rea**hard, and ralph dubof**sky, all founding bod members refused to participate in momentus and its promotion, and none of them ever did........but, john s. and the graeser's did, and still proclaim its "benefits" to this day, despite a less-than-gleaming track record of ces involvement with that "christianized" EST type scam!......john s.'s doctrinal "vetting" of momentus helped its promotion and validated the inculcation of momentus terminolgy and practices into the daily activities and speech of ces/stfi itself, where they remain to this day!.......i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind these facts, then and now........
then there's the entire "personal prophecy" fiasco!..............the insanity of this spurious malpractice of "christanity", along with its concommitant spiritual abuse, was once again vetted for ces by john s. repeatedly, eventually becoming "institutionalized" into ces/stfi with the publication and sale of their "research" manifesto on the topic.............a publication which ces/stfi and its current president still proudly stand by and promote as "truth"!..........there are literally hundreds of posts, scattered throughout this ces forum, which document the insane progression of this "truth" from its genesis with ces involvement with florida church international (?), and greg pharis(sp?) all the way through the departure from ces of its second prez and his wife along with the resner's...........the sordid "secret" details of this aberrant practice, and it's viciously destructive impact on ces bod members themselves, and their families, are also posted all over this ces forum!.........i absolutely question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who stubbornly adhere to and promote this foolish doctrine and practice as somehow being "biblically accurate"!!............
i also must question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of any person who,,,,,,,,, despite numerous "moral failures" on the part of the two previous ces/stfi presidents, despite numerous accounts from former followers of various "hurts and abuses" suffered by them at the hands of ces "leadership", doctrines and practices, even after many dollars and hours spent by those same followers in the "pursuit of godliness" as defined by ces/stfi........still determines that, continued loyalty to the teachings and practices which comprise the total ces/stfi "package" is somehow "right with god, the father of jesus christ"!!...........not only that, but such loyalty is supposedly based on "the rightly divided accuracy of god's word"??..............according to whom???
john schoenheit is, by all accounts, "a really good guy", and, he is a really good "bible teacher"............he's honest and forthright about what he believes and why he believes it.............he does'nt "come accross" as some ego-tripping ex-twi "leader"..........he seems "down-to-earth", and approachable.............he does nice weddings for folks...........and he enjoys the "seclusion" of camp vision, and hunting and fishing.............he loves "working the word", and he believes he is carrying on in vic's stead to research and teach the word, "as it has'nt been known since the first century".........and, he believes vic himself would be "very proud" of what he's done and continues to do...........and, he believes it's "god's will" for him to be financially and materially supported by "god's people" in the body of christ who choose to do so............and, he's a citizen and resident of the USA, which allows him the freedom to believe and teach whatever he wants, and to earn his living by doing so.......and, it gives him the right to do all these things in a free and open society, with freedom of religion and expression................thank god!.................it also allows me the freedom to express my questions regarding the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind his choices, and to make my own choices as to what i believe about his "ministry" and its teachings and practices.................to each his own........................peace.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah...that's the part that sticks in my throat.
Knowing that Vic was a plagiarizing, drunken, sexual predator...who made a lifestyle out of abusing people and took narcism to a new level...WHY would they WANT this guy to be proud of them???...and if he would have been proud of them, what does that say about them?
Although they seem to be sympathetic towards twi refugees, and they seem to be extending themselves to help these people...what are they REALLY doing? The bottom line is that Vic's "concept" of "knowing the "word" like it hasn't been known since the first century"...is still front and center in their "spiritual perspective". They don't see themselves as simple Christian folks who are seeking to worship God and fellowship with other Christians...They see themselves as "the special ones" whose job it is to teach us all the REAL truth that mainstram Christianity has been missing all these years...
Like twi, they focus on Christianity as an intellectual excercise...and like Indiana Jones, they will fit the puzzle pieces together properly and find the lost ark...
I don't know how someone can be aware of Wierwille's lifestyle and still embrace his "concepts of truth"...and pay tribute to him by announcing that he would "be proud of them"...the contradiction is glaring and adds nothing to their credibility.
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rhino
Thanks DWBH ... interesting analysis ... I lived with the Carl.is one year ... I'm hopin they moved on, though they were still doing a fellowship in '87 you say ... or Mark was anyway .... they were at that historical center home I think ... I guess GSC could offer some extra items of historical note on vic's history ... but they probably sold the place.
That makes the most sense to me, as far as why seemingly sane people still revere the vicster. It is hard to let go of that "God's chosen few" notion. Some hard core Baptists have it ... there are the 144,000 special ones, Jim Jones.. then those guys that were going to meet the aliens ... all kinds of groups living in some sci-fi land with their Captain Kirk leaders.
But yeah, JohnS had that special rev ... he could follow in VP's steps and carry out the pursuit of doctrinal perfection ... but then the spiders starting crawling around ... maybe he needs to hang out here, get some more open peer review ... or maybe in more scholastic venues ... but as long as there are a few drooling over their every word, it might be hard for the anointed ones to take off the holy mantle.
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Paradiseden
Although I do not post that often, when I saw the title of this thread I had to make a few comments. I have known John for many years and served on staff at several events that he has been involved in. He is a Christian of immense talent and has a genuine love for people. In addition, he is extremely knowledgeable about the Bible and can teach. As for working at several events, I never thought that he had some other agenda besides doing his best to communicate God's love to others and teach the Bible. I certainly CANNOT say that about some other ministers, especially a few that were in the Way.
As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).
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jen-o
paradiseden,
with all due respect, i absolutely would not seek guidance from a christian minister who is spiritually blind to the unbiblical nature of "momentus" and "personal prophecy"...
(major red flag!)
this does not show spiritual insight!
nor would i seek guidance from a christian minister who believed that he would make a self-centered, money-hungry, power-seeking, lust-serving, lying and abusive alcoholic proud...
not exactly the stamp of approval that most christian ministers would seek...
he might be a nice guy, but he sounds spiritually blind...
and i personally would not want this kind of minister as the leader of any christian organization i was involved with...
peace,
jen-o
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GrouchoMarxJr
Paradiseden...a few of the reasons?...perhaps some of the other reasons he is prsident is because the former presidents all left/were fired..because of scandal. What does that say about this organizaion?
I agree that John S seems like a swell guy with good intentions...and he probably is..BUT...I refer you to my above post (#11)...why would he invoke the name of VP Wierwille as somene who would be proud of him? Is this an indication of his "spiritual perception"?...Honest question.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that?
as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?...........ces/stfi spends their followers financial support on three websites they run and own themselves..........and yet, none of them provide a discussion forum like this for their own followers!...........those sites are loaded with all sorts of writings, "teachings", tapes, cd's, podcasts, "events", etc., which promote ces/stfi and their "leaders"..........but nowhere do they provide any place for their followers to engage their own critical thinking skills, or encourage objective, analytical discussions regarding the doctrines and practices they proclaim as "biblically accurate truth"!..........they used to.........but that was abruptly discontinued when their "personal prophecy" doctrine and practices were being questioned by some of the more "vocal" followers who raised important and critical questions concerning the veracity of what their "leadership" was declaring as "truth"!...........evidently, such free-wheeling, open discussions do not effectively enhance the "group think" twi offshoots require in order to accomplish "god's will"!
personally, i'm tired of the excuses they make for not posting here themselves.............and just as tired of the "fly-by" posts their surrogates come up with in their desperate attempts to validate, expiate, rationalize, and justify some of the UTTER NONSENSE they foist upon us here at the spot, and the rest of the known universe!.......apparently it is beneath their "dignity", or their "godly calling" to discuss any thing with any "community" which does not wholeheartedly agree with what they preach and teach!..........or with any "community" which is not as "proud" of what they're doing and teaching as the founding president of twi would be!.........this thread provides several good examples of what i'm typing about.........
paradiseden posted, "As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).".........what is so unique or special about these "qualities"??..........they describe a large number of "christian ministers" who conduct themselves in the same manner as john s. all around the globe, without ever giving such conduct a second thought.......that's pretty much the way "christian ministering" is done in most christian churches!.......it's fairly obvious, that paradiseden must have had some experiences in twi, with "christian ministers" whose conduct was quite different, eh?......probaby some of the same ex-twi "christian ministers" who ran ces/stfi at one time!!......there have been a couple..........
so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace.
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batcave
Ok, I'll bite. I was very involved with CES for a few years (late 90's - early 2000's) until I realized most of the leadership wanted to make a new, improved version of TWI without the sexual abuse issues. Unfortunately, the separatist attitude of most of the leadership (Schoenheit included) still pervaded and they were undone by greed and pride. I couldn't stay on with those attitudes. Got one t-shirt, don't need another.
As I person, I respect JS very much. However, he has cast his loyalty with people who do not deserve it and he won't leave the mental comfort of the old TWI "research" thinking to srike out on his own. He is in my prayers, though.
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DontWorryBeHappy
thanks for your last post batcave!..........i appreciate your response, and john can sure use your prayers!..................peace.
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oldiesman
Maybe they just don't want to get into endless verbal arguments mean harassments and harangues by former friends who once loved them but now are corrupted with hate and venom against them?
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GrouchoMarxJr
...or maybe they are not comfortable in an environment where dissenting opinions are allowed to be presented and debated...or maybe it is not conducive to their marketing strategies to leave the bubble of "group think" followers where they successfully promote their tapes and books to a captive audience...
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now I see
This describes many people I know who hang their hat with Geer too.
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jen-o
ces, geer... doesn't this apply to cff as well?
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chockfull
Maybe they were on the way to their keyboard and tripped and fell, injuring their wrist. Maybe they decided to take up knitting. Maybe they found a heathen website to post on saving souls.
Maybe you are projecting.
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excathedra
EXCELLENT. you made my night, don39. my respect for you has risen bigtime !!!!!
now up above i saw "i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor (barf), when he said to me, that if i remained faithful......
looks like i wasn't the only one getting ******'d on the motorcoach
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha only i'm smart enough to know it now !!!!! lol
great points here
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now I see
Jen - o, yes it applies to all whove been tainted by vpw....it's just that I personally have dear friends whom I love who either still attend the Geer fellowship and who run an area under Geer.  My heart breaks that there are none so blind as those who will not see.....seeing they see not.....
Peace, Jen.
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