There's plenty of old PFAL copies floating around. Can they be legally distributed? I doubt it, but other opinions are out there. As I recall, TWI retained ownership of the tapes, videos, etc.
I was doing some browsing of old posts and saw that at one point there was some group in Belize that imported PFAL on DVD. However, that was a couple years ago. Has the Way stopped this? If not, does anybody know where I can obtain and/or purchase a copy...legally?
With all these people who left the Way and with all this talk about the copyright stuff being questionable, there's got to be mass people out there holding on to it. So does anybody know who's got it?
OneWhoIsFree
Contact Galen (on this site). He has the class (from what I understand), and runs it on his own.
Whether or not he will give you copies is another matter entirely.
Oh yeah.. Galen. He has some kind of "free pass" to run pfal as he likes, signed by some bigwig from hq..
he's pretty honorable though. I don't think he'd copy it..
"Where's pfal".. kinda brings up a picture of Doctor Jones asking.. "it's the gweatest power known to the befuddled mind o man.. SOMEBODY has to do somethin' with it.."
"we have our best people working on it.."
"and who are they?"
"the best..... people.."
as it gets hauled off into the underbelly of the osc by some lackey..
Oh yeah.. Galen. He has some kind of "free pass" to run pfal as he likes, signed by some bigwig from hq..
If Galen is around he can correct me if I'm wrong, but it had something to do with the classes supposedly being the property of the individual limbs and that The Way of California being a corporation legally separate from The Way International (plausible IMHO, since The Way West was originally independent from TWI and The Way of California may have been a sucessor organization to TWW) they had the legal right to assign the rights to use the PFAL class and Galen was supposedly given that right from a bigwig within the Way of California during the late-80's exodus. That's what I remember him saying anyway. Sounds like a rationalization to me, but I gues it could be true.
That's a place if you want some "holy spirit" education.
You mean, Leonard's - Gifts of the Spirit class?
Get with the program WW if you're out to promote BG Leonard's stuff.
Comparing PFAL with his class is like comparing an apple to an orange.
BG's group refers to the manifestations of holy spirit as being: Gifts of the Spirit -- and --- that's a big H and big S, not a little h. and little s.
When it comes to the holy spirit field and educating others, apparently some people aren't as educated as they think.
If your preference is for "Bible study", all the best stuff from "vpw's" class is right out of EW Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible."
You can buy the book, or get a free download from online.
I don't PERSONALLY know of a book that's the equivalent of Stiles' book that vpw ripped off, but there's a LOT more books on the field since vpw stole Stiles' book. I'm sure you can find what you need commercially.
From: Rev. Leonard's foreword to his book GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT:
"One day God spoke to me. "If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion." I believed God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude. During those wonderful days, He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit. As He did, these things were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received, and by examining the results in light of His Word."
So now we know exactly where VPW heard and learned this! If this is where you advise one to get their "holy spirit" education, to be fair, one should also wonder what gas pumps with snow on them BG Leonard also saw.
I was doing some browsing of old posts and saw that at one point there was some group in Belize that imported PFAL on DVD. However, that was a couple years ago. Has the Way stopped this? If not, does anybody know where I can obtain and/or purchase a copy...legally?
With all these people who left the Way and with all this talk about the copyright stuff being questionable, there's got to be mass people out there holding on to it. So does anybody know who's got it?
OneWhoIsFree
Since no one else has said it yet.....
Why look hard for the pfal tapes when BETTER materials are out there?
WTH:
"What makes you think I had to look hard for them?"
What makes you think I was talking to you? OneWhoIsFree asked specifically where to find the pfal tapes.
(Or, I imagine, the DVDs or CDROMs or any comparable version.)
WW:
If you want a one-stop-shop for classes, there's fewer places better than the first
That's a place if you want some "holy spirit" education.
WTH:
"You mean, Leonard's - Gifts of the Spirit class?
Get with the program WW if you're out to promote BG Leonard's stuff.
Comparing PFAL with his class is like comparing an apple to an orange.
BG's group refers to the manifestations of holy spirit as being: Gifts of the Spirit -- and --- that's a big H and big S, not a little h. and little s.
When it comes to the holy spirit field and educating others, apparently some people aren't as educated as they think."
Yes, I mean Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class, available from CTC of Texas.
I'm not "promoting BG Leonard's stuff."
OneWhoIsFree ASKED about the material. That's where the material is available.
From the original class, not the knockoff.
Comparing CTC's class with vpw's class is like comparing genuine Listerine with generic knockoffs-
you'll end up wondering why you tolerated the bad taste in your mouth.
Yes, Leonard's class calls it "GIFT" and not "manifestation"- just like you call it "manifestationS" when I Corinthian 12
refers to it in the singular. Personally, I'd prefer BOTH of you use the terminology I use.
That having been said, once once unclenches over the usage of the WORD "gift" and actually pays attention to
the CONCEPTS being taught, the WORD "gift" becomes a rather minor point.
From here, it's just an excuse to dismiss a class that was so good, vpw copied it word-for-word and claimed HE
taught it. Students of the CTC class-as some who've posted here said- learn a LOT more than the pfal class offered
them when they were offered it. Despite disagreeing with the word "gift."
When it comes to the TOTAL PICTURE of spiritual matters and educating others,
some people understand less than they'd like to admit.
WW:
If your preference is for "Bible study", all the best stuff from "vpw's" class is right
out of EW Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible."
You can buy the book, or get a free download from online.
I don't PERSONALLY know of a book that's the equivalent of Stiles' book
that vpw ripped off, but there's a LOT more books on the field since vpw stole
Stiles' book. I'm sure you can find what you need commercially.
WTH:
From: Rev. Leonard's foreword to his book GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT:
"One day God spoke to me. "If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion." I believed God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude. During those wonderful days, He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit. As He did, these things were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received, and by examining the results in light of His Word."
So now we know exactly where VPW heard and learned this! If this is where you advise one to get their "holy spirit" education, to be fair, one should also wonder what gas pumps with snow on them BG Leonard also saw.
1) Thanks for admitting where vpw STOLE the "snow on the pumps" from. He ripped off the man's class,
AND his genuine spiritual experiences.
2) "Now" YOU know this. We discussed this years ago. I MYSELF posted years ago that he STOLE the "1942 promise",
and posted this quote as documentation.
3) Yes, that IS where I would advise someone to get their "holy spirit" education- if they were planning on
getting it from "vpw's" pfal class.
Leonard never claimed any "snow on the gas pumps"- vpw added that in the 1970s.
(According to Mrs W, that was when he first made this claim.)
Leonard never claimed God promised him ALL answers on ALL subjects-just the ones he asked for on ONE subject.
Did Leonard make this claim up the way vpw made his claim up?
Well, Leonard didn't just "talk the walk"- Leonard "walked the talk."
BG Leonard may not have been perfect, but he WAS "the man he knew himself to be", and walked worthy (not perfect,
as if any of us expected him to walk PERFECT) of the calling wherewith he was called.
Feel free to disprove me:
either find a "snow on gas pumps" account (or its equivalent) among Leonard's writings,
or find where Leonard was caught raping congregants or using them for filthy lucre's sake.
What makes you think I was talking to you? OneWhoIsFree asked specifically where to find the pfal tapes.
(Or, I imagine, the DVDs or CDROMs or any comparable version.)
WW:
WTH:Yes, I mean Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class, available from CTC of Texas.
I'm not "promoting BG Leonard's stuff."
Oh really? You could have fooled me. -- Right!
OneWhoIsFree ASKED about the material. That's where the material is available.
From the original class, not the knockoff.
Comparing CTC's class with vpw's class is like comparing genuine Listerine with generic knockoffs-
you'll end up wondering why you tolerated the bad taste in your mouth.
Yes, Leonard's class calls it "GIFT" and not "manifestation"- just like you call it "manifestationS" when I Corinthian 12
refers to it in the singular. Personally, I'd prefer BOTH of you use the terminology I use.
The word gifts in the KJV is in italics in 1 Corinthians 12:1. The word for spiritual is pneumatikos, and is plural. So 1 Corinthians 12:1 is better translated as: things of the spirit, spiritual things or spiritual matters. Spiritual things and spiritual matters are all plural, not singular.
That having been said, once once unclenches over the usage of the WORD "gift" and actually pays attention to
the CONCEPTS being taught, the WORD "gift" becomes a rather minor point.
Not so. In v4 of 1 Corinthians 12 it states, "Now there are diversities of gifts [the word: "gifts" in this verse is not in italics] but the same Spirit." The word for "gifts" in v4 is the word 'charismata' unlike in v1 where the word gifts IS italicized. There is NO word in any of the Greek texts for gifts in v1, however there is in v4 - which is the Greek word 'charismata', and there it is translated as gifts. This is hardly a "minor point" - especially when anyone can see it is a case where the same word (i.e. gifts) appears in English in both v1 and in v4, but in the the original it is a case where the word exists and where it doesn't. This is NOT a MINOR POINT at all!
From here, it's just an excuse to dismiss a class that was so good, vpw copied it word-for-word and claimed HE taught it.
Again, VPW taught manifestations of the spirit - (little s). BG taught (and he still teaches) Gifts of the Spirit - (big S). Anybody with eyes can see this is hardly a word-for-word (let alone, a letter-for-letter) copy of the same thing. V.P.W.=manifestations. B.G.=Gifts.
Students of the CTC class-as some who've posted here said- learn a LOT more than the pfal class offered them when they were offered it. Despite disagreeing with the word "gift."
This doesn't say a lot - considering what someone says they may or may not have learned and what they got from a class. I know people who took a lot of excellent classes but then flunked them. All that proves is that they don't know it all - so what's your point? Of course, the bad one's they breezed though and 'A'-ced them. So I suppose that's something to brag about?
When it comes to the TOTAL PICTURE of spiritual matters and educating others, some people understand less than they'd like to admit.[/b]
WW:
WTH:
1) Thanks for admitting where vpw STOLE the "snow on the pumps" from. He ripped off the man's class, AND his genuine spiritual experiences.
I didn't admit VPW stole anything from Leonard - his class or his (BG's) experiences. That is your claim, not mine. All I am saying is it is just as easy for one to dismiss BG's "experiences" as it is to dismiss VPW's "snow on the gas pump" experience. Unless you believe a man's "experiences" are a guarantee for truth - (since you are the one who is using the term: "genuine spiritual experiences") but I don't believe that nor claim that either.
2) "Now" YOU know this. We discussed this years ago. I MYSELF posted years ago that he STOLE the "1942 promise",
and posted this quote as documentation.
I already answered this one above.
3) Yes, that IS where I would advise someone to get their "holy spirit" education- if they were planning on getting it from "vpw's" pfal class.
So you are plugging BG's class. You just don't want to fess up to it.
Leonard never claimed any "snow on the gas pumps"- vpw added that in the 1970s.
(According to Mrs W, that was when he first made this claim.)
Leonard never claimed God promised him ALL answers on ALL subjects-just the ones he asked for on ONE subject.
VPW never claimed that God promised him ALL the answers on All subjects either. I suppose your going to insist VPW stole that from BG as well. (It sure wouldn't surprise me.)
Did Leonard make this claim up the way vpw made his claim up?
You tell me. Apparently you're the answer man with all the answers on BG Leonard and VPW - as you want people to believe you are.
Well, Leonard didn't just "talk the walk"- Leonard "walked the talk."
Of course, you're trying to say VPW didn't by "comparing VPW to BG." I wonder what God's Word has to say about comparing ourselves with those who commend themselves, and measuring ourselves by ourselves. (See 1 Corinthians 10:12 for the answer.)
BG Leonard may not have been perfect, but he WAS "the man he knew himself to be", and walked worthy (not perfect, as if any of us expected him to walk PERFECT) of the calling wherewith he was called.
Feel free to disprove me:
either find a "snow on gas pumps" account (or its equivalent) among Leonard's writings,
or find where Leonard was caught raping congregants or using them for filthy lucre's sake.
You believe you're trying to say something important by comparing BG Lenoard's 'holier-than-thou' life to VPW's sinful one. One could just as easily compare VPW's 'holier-than-thou' life to BG' sinful one to make the points you are making. But the truth is still what is stated in 1 Corinthians 12:10, but then, someone just doesn't want people to think he's being foolish by doing so. You sure can fool a lot of people on a lot of things when they don't know the answer from God's Word.
"There is NO word in any of the Greek texts for gifts in v1, however there is in v4 - which is the Greek word 'charismata', and there it is translated as gifts. This is hardly a "minor point" - especially when anyone can see it is a case where the same word (i.e. gifts) appears in English in both v1 and in v4, but in the the original it is a case where the word exists and where it doesn't. This is NOT a MINOR POINT at all!".............
"but in the original"?????...............wtf wth???.............."THE ORIGINAL" WHAT???............the hey.............................peace.
Wierwille wowed us by taking us to the Greek and showing us how gifts was italicized in one place and where it was in another, but did he draw the right conclusions? Maybe, maybe not.
Verse 1 of I Corithians 12 says that God doesn't want us ignorant of "spiritualities", or things spiritual...Greek word pneumatikos. Wierwille rightly points out that that verse isn't talking about gifts.
Verses 2 & 3 talk about having been idol worshipping Gentiles and that you can't call Jesus accursed through the spirit
Verse 4 says that there are diversities of Gifts, but the same spirit
Verse 5 that there are differences in administrations but the same Lord
Verse 6 says that there are diversities of operations but the same God
Seems obvious that the main point is that there's a lot of stuff out there and it all comes from the same source.
Then verse 7 says that the manifestation (singular) of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
A point could be made that the nine things that follow are not called specifically gifts (nor operations nor administrations), but nor are they called manifestations.
Another way this verse could be worded could be: To every man, to profit withal, is given to manifest the spirit.
In other words, every man can manifest the spirit; then 9 different ways that the spirit can be manifested are listed.
Wierwille insisted that there were 9 distinct manifestations and that everyone could "operate" all nine. But the verses seem to clearly state that "to one" is given this, and "to one" is given something else. Wierwille's explanation that the phrases should be translated "for to one profit" is convoluted and is not supported by the text.
I'm not defending Leonard; I don't know the specifics of his teachings, but Wierwille's is built from some shaky research.
Here’s vp’s way of “finding” the original, from PFAL, Chapter Eleven, The Translations of the Word of God, page 128:
…Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word – which I am confident we can – then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord."…
End of excerpts
vp would call it “the original” when it didn’t contradict his theology. If you had a problem with his “translation” it was due to an error in your understanding… I really think the man had an aversion to honest and clear thinking – as Oakspear pointed out vp’s “for to one profit” convoluted translation.
You know, when I heard and read that quote by Wierwille I thought it made a lot of sense, and it did, if only he had actually done that.
I started to scratch my head when I heard him say things like "we don't have a text that says such-and-such, but it's got to be there".
Or when he claimed with all confidence that "in the original" the first word in the bible is "God", when any Hebrew bible has the first word as beresheeth, usually translated as "in the beginning", the second word as barah, normally translated as "created"; only when you get to the third word do you find elohim, God.
In my opinion, overall, Wierwille (or whoever he stole them from ) had it right with the keys to understanding and/or researching the bible. But they became inconvenient when the "keys" revealed different answers than the ones he liked.
In my estimation, it's Wierwille's shoddy research that makes what he taught suspect, rather than any other consideration.
...In my opinion, overall, Wierwille (or whoever he stole them from ) had it right with the keys to understanding and/or researching the bible. But they became inconvenient when the "keys" revealed different answers than the ones he liked.
In my estimation, it's Wierwille's shoddy research that makes what he taught suspect, rather than any other consideration.
Yup !!!
Here's vp's way of "finding" the original, from PFAL, Chapter Eleven, The Translations of the Word of God, page 128:
…Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding.
When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word – which I am confident we can – then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord."…
End of excerpts...
Another thing that bugs me about this PFAL quote, is that it gets confusing - sort of mixing up textual criticism with systematic theology. He talks about comparing words and verses with the assumption contradictions/errors are either in the translation or one's understanding. Contradictions deal with logical inconsistencies - which would address doctrinal/theological issues. Translation work/textual criticism addresses the details of available texts.
IMHO, this PFAL quote exemplifies vp's deceptive means to represent his doctrines as the Word of God - this is obvious by the time you get to the end of that quote - which I separated out and set in a putrid green font.
Another thing that bugs me about this PFAL quote, is that it gets confusing - sort of mixing up textual criticism with systematic theology.
Hmmm....hadn't thought of that. Makes sense in light of his trying to make things "fit", rather than let verses say what they're saying.
This is obvious in his treatment of things like the nature of Jesus Christ. Verses are discarded, not because there is any real evidence that they are later additions or mistranslations, but because they don't fit with what he has already decided is the truth.
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Oakspear
There's plenty of old PFAL copies floating around. Can they be legally distributed? I doubt it, but other opinions are out there. As I recall, TWI retained ownership of the tapes, videos, etc.
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TheHighWay
And yes, according to a website listing legal cases pending, TWI went after the group in Belize and they have stopped making the PFAL DVDs available.
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dmiller
Contact Galen (on this site). He has the class (from what I understand), and runs it on his own.
Whether or not he will give you copies is another matter entirely.
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Ham
Oh yeah.. Galen. He has some kind of "free pass" to run pfal as he likes, signed by some bigwig from hq..
he's pretty honorable though. I don't think he'd copy it..
"Where's pfal".. kinda brings up a picture of Doctor Jones asking.. "it's the gweatest power known to the befuddled mind o man.. SOMEBODY has to do somethin' with it.."
"we have our best people working on it.."
"and who are they?"
"the best..... people.."
as it gets hauled off into the underbelly of the osc by some lackey..
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Caveman
I've been told that Criss Geer has reprint rights signed by vpw.
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WordWolf
Since no one else has said it yet.....
Why look hard for the pfal tapes when BETTER materials are out there?
If you want a one-stop-shop for classes, there's fewer places better than the first
place vpw stole the classes from.
Go to BG Leonard's group.
http://www.ctcoftexas.com/
That's a place if you want some "holy spirit" education.
If your preference is for "Bible study", all the best stuff from "vpw's" class is right
out of EW Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible."
You can buy the book, or get a free download from online.
I don't PERSONALLY know of a book that's the equivalent of Stiles' book
that vpw ripped off, but there's a LOT more books on the field since vpw stole
Stiles' book. I'm sure you can find what you need commercially.
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Oakspear
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What The Hey
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WordWolf
WTH:
What makes you think I was talking to you? OneWhoIsFree asked specifically where to find the pfal tapes.(Or, I imagine, the DVDs or CDROMs or any comparable version.)
WW:
WTH:
Yes, I mean Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class, available from CTC of Texas.I'm not "promoting BG Leonard's stuff."
OneWhoIsFree ASKED about the material. That's where the material is available.
From the original class, not the knockoff.
Comparing CTC's class with vpw's class is like comparing genuine Listerine with generic knockoffs-
you'll end up wondering why you tolerated the bad taste in your mouth.
Yes, Leonard's class calls it "GIFT" and not "manifestation"- just like you call it "manifestationS" when I Corinthian 12
refers to it in the singular. Personally, I'd prefer BOTH of you use the terminology I use.
That having been said, once once unclenches over the usage of the WORD "gift" and actually pays attention to
the CONCEPTS being taught, the WORD "gift" becomes a rather minor point.
From here, it's just an excuse to dismiss a class that was so good, vpw copied it word-for-word and claimed HE
taught it. Students of the CTC class-as some who've posted here said- learn a LOT more than the pfal class offered
them when they were offered it. Despite disagreeing with the word "gift."
When it comes to the TOTAL PICTURE of spiritual matters and educating others,
some people understand less than they'd like to admit.
WW:
WTH:
1) Thanks for admitting where vpw STOLE the "snow on the pumps" from. He ripped off the man's class,
AND his genuine spiritual experiences.
2) "Now" YOU know this. We discussed this years ago. I MYSELF posted years ago that he STOLE the "1942 promise",
and posted this quote as documentation.
3) Yes, that IS where I would advise someone to get their "holy spirit" education- if they were planning on
getting it from "vpw's" pfal class.
Leonard never claimed any "snow on the gas pumps"- vpw added that in the 1970s.
(According to Mrs W, that was when he first made this claim.)
Leonard never claimed God promised him ALL answers on ALL subjects-just the ones he asked for on ONE subject.
Did Leonard make this claim up the way vpw made his claim up?
Well, Leonard didn't just "talk the walk"- Leonard "walked the talk."
BG Leonard may not have been perfect, but he WAS "the man he knew himself to be", and walked worthy (not perfect,
as if any of us expected him to walk PERFECT) of the calling wherewith he was called.
Feel free to disprove me:
either find a "snow on gas pumps" account (or its equivalent) among Leonard's writings,
or find where Leonard was caught raping congregants or using them for filthy lucre's sake.
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What The Hey
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jen-o
wth,
you strain at a gnat...
and swallow a camel...
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mstar1
yea but it is also a Great illustration in real life of the Fruit of PFAL.
Good Luck finding your class OneWhoIsFree
(of course I think you'd be better off not finding one myself)
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi all you greasespotters!.................
"There is NO word in any of the Greek texts for gifts in v1, however there is in v4 - which is the Greek word 'charismata', and there it is translated as gifts. This is hardly a "minor point" - especially when anyone can see it is a case where the same word (i.e. gifts) appears in English in both v1 and in v4, but in the the original it is a case where the word exists and where it doesn't. This is NOT a MINOR POINT at all!".............
"but in the original"?????...............wtf wth???.............."THE ORIGINAL" WHAT???............the hey.............................peace.
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coolchef
where is pfal??
far far away from me i pray!!!
and may it stay there!
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Oakspear
Wierwille wowed us by taking us to the Greek and showing us how gifts was italicized in one place and where it was in another, but did he draw the right conclusions? Maybe, maybe not.
Verse 1 of I Corithians 12 says that God doesn't want us ignorant of "spiritualities", or things spiritual...Greek word pneumatikos. Wierwille rightly points out that that verse isn't talking about gifts.
Verses 2 & 3 talk about having been idol worshipping Gentiles and that you can't call Jesus accursed through the spirit
Verse 4 says that there are diversities of Gifts, but the same spirit
Verse 5 that there are differences in administrations but the same Lord
Verse 6 says that there are diversities of operations but the same God
Seems obvious that the main point is that there's a lot of stuff out there and it all comes from the same source.
Then verse 7 says that the manifestation (singular) of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
A point could be made that the nine things that follow are not called specifically gifts (nor operations nor administrations), but nor are they called manifestations.
Another way this verse could be worded could be: To every man, to profit withal, is given to manifest the spirit.
In other words, every man can manifest the spirit; then 9 different ways that the spirit can be manifested are listed.
Wierwille insisted that there were 9 distinct manifestations and that everyone could "operate" all nine. But the verses seem to clearly state that "to one" is given this, and "to one" is given something else. Wierwille's explanation that the phrases should be translated "for to one profit" is convoluted and is not supported by the text.
I'm not defending Leonard; I don't know the specifics of his teachings, but Wierwille's is built from some shaky research.
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Ham
Where's pfal?
I think it's holed up on a farm in Smith County, Mississippi..
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waysider
I wonder if Waldo knows where PLAF is. :blink:
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jen-o
oakspear,
excellent analysis!
God is the source...
every man can manifest the spirit...
and there are 9 ways the spirit can be manifested...
but, that does not mean one can logically deduce: "all nine all the time"...
(vpw took a leap to that conclusion)... hey, what else is new, eh?
peace,
jen-o
p.s. heheheh... where's this "original" that wth seems to think he has access to??
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dmiller
Where's Indiana Jones, when ya REALLY need him??
He's good at finding things like this! ;)
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T-Bone
Here’s vp’s way of “finding” the original, from PFAL, Chapter Eleven, The Translations of the Word of God, page 128:
…Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word – which I am confident we can – then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord."…
End of excerpts
vp would call it “the original” when it didn’t contradict his theology. If you had a problem with his “translation” it was due to an error in your understanding… I really think the man had an aversion to honest and clear thinking – as Oakspear pointed out vp’s “for to one profit” convoluted translation.
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Oakspear
You know, when I heard and read that quote by Wierwille I thought it made a lot of sense, and it did, if only he had actually done that.
I started to scratch my head when I heard him say things like "we don't have a text that says such-and-such, but it's got to be there".
Or when he claimed with all confidence that "in the original" the first word in the bible is "God", when any Hebrew bible has the first word as beresheeth, usually translated as "in the beginning", the second word as barah, normally translated as "created"; only when you get to the third word do you find elohim, God.
In my opinion, overall, Wierwille (or whoever he stole them from
) had it right with the keys to understanding and/or researching the bible. But they became inconvenient when the "keys" revealed different answers than the ones he liked.
In my estimation, it's Wierwille's shoddy research that makes what he taught suspect, rather than any other consideration.
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waysider
Amen to that, Brother!!
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T-Bone
Yup !!!
Another thing that bugs me about this PFAL quote, is that it gets confusing - sort of mixing up textual criticism with systematic theology. He talks about comparing words and verses with the assumption contradictions/errors are either in the translation or one's understanding. Contradictions deal with logical inconsistencies - which would address doctrinal/theological issues. Translation work/textual criticism addresses the details of available texts.
IMHO, this PFAL quote exemplifies vp's deceptive means to represent his doctrines as the Word of God - this is obvious by the time you get to the end of that quote - which I separated out and set in a putrid green font.
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Oakspear
This is obvious in his treatment of things like the nature of Jesus Christ. Verses are discarded, not because there is any real evidence that they are later additions or mistranslations, but because they don't fit with what he has already decided is the truth.
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